You obviously love that mic Cucco! Your review surely wets my appetite as well, although I am not quite in that class.

Small detail only, from your review:
"Currently, Gefell is the only microphone manufacturer producing a solid nickel diaphragm for recording purposes."
I might be wrong there, but I believe DPA uses nickel as well. From their home page:
"We have chosen a nickel foil for our diaphragm material in our pressure microphones."

Gunnar

Gunnar,

True, DPA uses nickel in their diaphragms, but the purity of Gefell's, from what I've read and been told actually surpasses DPA's and is truly a "pure" nickel. Often, nickels (an alloy anyway) are diluted with other metals to make them more maleable or stable while working with them. This is one of the things that sets MG's measurement division apart from so many others is the absolute purity of their nickel diaphragms. This is one of the main reasons they cost SOOOO much - they're hard to work with and get right.

Thanks for helping point this out.

J.

The MG 296 was suggested to Gefell by Jerry Graham at the old
Gotham Audio company. The idea was to make a mic that imitates the M50.

It's an outstanding mic that used to be quite affordable. ($650.00)
Now, with the new distributors acting like pirates, it is still a good mic with the price padded.

Check http://

for the real German price.

Hey Hudson.

Glad to see you back around here again (IOW, I'm glad I didn't scare you off...)

Thanks for the insight - this is a fact that I was unaware of regarding the roots of the 296. I certainly see (err, hear) some of the traits of the M50 in it (obviously not overt traits). Something I didn't touch on too much in the review, but kind of alluded to is that it does exhibit some of the directional characteristics in the higher frequencies much like the M50. This is one of the reasons I'm able to use it in less than beautiful rooms with a moderate level of success.

Thanks for the info!
J.

The review is now showing on the Reviews side bar as well ... just click and read. Great job on the review Cucco ... now I gotta save some dough for one of those mics ...dammit! It never ends! crap!

Hey Jeremy!
A mic that's so realistic it freaks the singer out? I LIKE IT!!!

John

Jeremy thanks for the excellent review, I definitely need to listen to these especially considering their price point.

One small point, you mention that Gefell is the only manufacturer making solid nickel diaphrams, while most others are sputtered gold on mylar or PVC. The Neumann TLM-50 has a solid titanium diaphram, as does one of the Brauner's I think.

http://www.Neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=tlm50s

I also thought some of the DPA's had solid metal diaphrams as well, will find out. Are they better I wonder. Presumably the plastic is lighter.

Thanks for the note Dave.

I should point out that the wording I chose in the review was actually specific in that I stated that they are the only "pure nickel" used in recording microphones. Many companies produce pure nickel in T&M mics and you're dead right, there are many companies who do use other solid metals with great success. The original C12 capsule was metal as well. (If I recall correctly)

I hope that helps to clarify.

J. :)

DavidSpearritt wrote: I also thought some of the DPA's had solid metal diaphrams as well, will find out. Are they better I wonder. Presumably the plastic is lighter.

DPA diaphragms that are nickel and the capsules that the diaphragms are “welded” to are of an identical coefficient so they achieve perfect stability. This design and manufacturing philosophy comes from the B&K test and measurement background. The designs using nickel are still produced for DPA by B&K and are manufactured in a manner so that the diaphragms do not change in tension due to temperature or humidity variations (this, among other reasons).

Are they better? Who knows? At this level of manufacturing I doubt it. Pay your money, choose your sound.

Rich

Cucco,
I just ordered a pair. I will hold you personally responsible if I will not get perfect recordings without even trying. :lol:

Gunnar

Sounds good to me dude!!

Just let us know how long you can go without tweaking your nipples in excitement after hooking these beauties up!
8)

J.

Just a heads up - I'm also currently working on a review of the Dynaudio BM15s which I'll hopefully have done within a week or so. Soon to the list are hopefully:

M-Audio Monitors
Summit Mic Pre
Others yet to be determined.

I'll keep you posted.

J.

Cucco wrote: Just a heads up - I'm also currently working on a review of the Dynaudio BM15s which I'll hopefully have done within a week or so.

Active or passive?

I've been thinking about the passive BM15's as a possible future upgrade. I have a couple of amps here that might work for a while until I can afford something like a Bryston. I'm looking for a "far nearfield" pair that won't require a subwoofer. I'm really starting to hate subwoofers.

Just a side note on the metals tip, SE just brought out a titanium-diaphragm mic the Titan. My opinion is not positive on these guys, but others have sung their praises, so it bears a mention,

J

foldedpath wrote:
Active or passive?

I've been thinking about the passive BM15's as a possible future upgrade. I have a couple of amps here that might work for a while until I can afford something like a Bryston. I'm looking for a "far nearfield" pair that won't require a subwoofer. I'm really starting to hate subwoofers.

The straight BM15s (passive). My logic behind these is that I have 2 very fine amplifiers and I can't see the expense of higher priced units that include amplifiers when that's not what they design in the first place.

As for the requirements, I believe all of your items will be addressed in the review.

J. :D

... and I can't see the expense of higher priced units that include amplifiers when that's not what they design in the first place

But isn't this the precise reason to buy active monitors, they have amps in them that are designed uniquely for driving the drivers. This is the reason I prefer actives every time. Sorry if I have missed the point.

Another thing to consider is the crossover; the passive uses a 6 dB/octave filter, whereas the active uses a 30.

Jeemy wrote: Just a side note on the metals tip, SE just brought out a titanium-diaphragm mic the Titan. My opinion is not positive on these guys, but others have sung their praises, so it bears a mention

Sorry about my lack of knowledge in abbreviated microphone manufacturers names, who is "SE"..

:oops: / ptr

DavidSpearritt wrote:

... and I can't see the expense of higher priced units that include amplifiers when that's not what they design in the first place

But isn't this the precise reason to buy active monitors, they have amps in them that are designed uniquely for driving the drivers. This is the reason I prefer actives every time. Sorry if I have missed the point.

Yeah, that's the theory. And it's probably valid, up to a point. There are several strikes against the standard theory though (IMO).

First, if the difference in cost between a given set of passive and powered monitors is $500, and I have a $1,500 stereo power amp, then it's possible I'll get better results than with the built-in amps, however optimized and tweaked they may be. Until you get into the insanely expensive powered monitors, these things are built to a price point, with compromises in the amp quality.

Second, many mastering engineers seem to still prefer passive speakers with the amp of their choice. I don't know how relevant that is to the sub - $2,000 monitors I can afford, but it makes me think that a separate amp might not be a bad idea.

And a third strike against the idea... for me, anyway... is that I have an old McIntosh amp that's sitting here doing nothing, so it might as well have a shot at driving a nice pair of passive monitors.

I'm ready to spend the big bucks where it makes sense. I'm about to drop a lot of money on new A/D-D/A converters because the older stuff I'm using just doesn't cut it anymore. But if there is a place where I can still keep old but good gear running, I'll use it.

But I also thought another difference is that actives have an electronic active crossover or no crossover, my BM6a's have two separate amps to drive two separate drivers. Whereas passives have a passive crossover, ie not as controllable and repeatable between batches and subject to deterioration over time.

ptr, SE can be found at http://www.seelectronics.com/

They are a budget manufacturer aiming high, with a lot of producers singing their praises in the adverts, for whatever that is worth, and notably Paul White from sound on sound rates them.

They claim to be the same factory that builds certain higher end mics sold as (insert Western country of your choice here) but are obviously unable to do more than intimate.

I owned a 3200 for a short while and did not like it. Mind you the ATM4033 sounds better in my live room than the K2 so might have been my room. I never tracked it in the control room.

Jeemy wrote: ptr, SE can be found at http://www.seelectronics.com/

blimey, there so many mike makes that keeps popping up I wonder if there's really a market for everything..

thanks for the info..

/ptr

DavidSpearritt wrote:

... and I can't see the expense of higher priced units that include amplifiers when that's not what they design in the first place

But isn't this the precise reason to buy active monitors, they have amps in them that are designed uniquely for driving the drivers. This is the reason I prefer actives every time. Sorry if I have missed the point.

Well, this will partially be addressed in the review, so I don't want to spoil too much. But...
The concept of an amp being specially built to drive a specific driver is a laughable concept to me. My main power amps weigh in at a hefty 102 lbs. The reason? Simple, one hell of a power supply and massive cooling. This helps with headroom and simply sheer power. I liken the amplifiers in most powered monitors to amplifiers in home theater receivers. They're lightweight and tweaked to give a certain amount of juice, but they really aren't full-on, ballsy power amps.

Also, the point that David F makes is VERY valid. The crossover does have a different slope. The passive version has a very phase-friendly 1st order crossover - far superiour for imaging and depth to the higher-order counterparts.

True, they're passive crossovers, but passive crossovers are preferred by many audiophiles and can be made to VERY exacting tolerances. The issue of degradation is essentially a moot point given the modularity of parts nowadays and the quality of the internal componentry - the drivers will rot long before the crossover degrades.

J.

but they really aren't full-on, ballsy power amps.

But again a tweeter simply does not need a ballsy power amp. A passive system relies on crossover components to turn down all that unnecessary power and squeeze it into the tweeter.

Its nice to think of having a big amp under your desk, but if its not necessary ....

Anyway, I look forward to the review. I think speakers are like everything else, one cannot generalise and the companies that have done their design work properly will produce good examples of either. I know the active ATC's sound incredible and I am much happier with the two pairs of active dyns (15a, 6a) we have than some bigger passive domestic dyns, B&W's, and others I have heard, even with Krell power amps on the floor.

DavidSpearritt wrote:

but they really aren't full-on, ballsy power amps.

But again a tweeter simply does not need a ballsy power amp. A passive system relies on crossover components to turn down all that unnecessary power and squeeze it into the tweeter.

Ahh, a tweeter doesn't (which begs the question why so many manufacturers put in equal power for tweets as they do woofs.) but the woofer does. As for blocking the amplitude, a few well chosen resistors do that just fine and do little to nothing to the sound being passed on to the transducer.

Its nice to think of having a big amp under your desk, but if its not necessary ....

Anyway, I look forward to the review. I think speakers are like everything else, one cannot generalise and the companies that have done their design work properly will produce good examples of either. I know the active ATC's sound incredible and I am much happier with the two pairs of active dyns (15a, 6a) we have than some bigger passive domestic dyns, B&W's, and others I have heard, even with Krell power amps on the floor.

Thanks. This review will be a joy to work on - again I don't want to give away too much, but let's just say, I likey... :D

J.

Jeemy wrote: ptr, SE can be found at http://www.seelectronics.com/

They are a budget manufacturer aiming high, with a lot of producers singing their praises in the adverts, for whatever that is worth, and notably Paul White from sound on sound rates them.

While I tend to ignore reviews by Paul White, I think it's important to differentiate between these mics and the countless Chinese clones. This is a serious and credible mic company by any standards.

The Titan looks like a very interesting mic.

John

John Stafford wrote: [quote=Jeemy]ptr, SE can be found at http://www.seelectronics.com/

They are a budget manufacturer aiming high, with a lot of producers singing their praises in the adverts, for whatever that is worth, and notably Paul White from sound on sound rates them.

While I tend to ignore reviews by Paul White, I think it's important to differentiate between these mics and the countless Chinese clones. This is a serious and credible mic company by any standards.

The Titan looks like a very interesting mic.

John

If specs mean anything (which they often don't) the frequency curve on the titan looks friggin scary. There's a +/- 5dB rating from 30Hz to 20kHz (which isn't what their documentation says, just their frequency plot - interesting that they quote 20 to 20k. Just because a mic can reproduce frequencies at those frequencies doesn't mean it should be rated as "20-20,000 Hz." There should be some tolerance specified.)

The plot rises from -5dB (ref. 1.5kHz) to a dramatic rise at the 7-10kHz range. That's a 5 dB boost in just over a half an octave! OUCH!!!!

I don't know what the price on this unit will be (or is) but I don't see it edging out such famous (and relatively cheap) mics as the AT 4050 or AKG C414ULS. Frankly, I find the whole line to be overpriced. Don't forget, they are made in mainland China (true they are leaps and bounds better than stuff by other PRC companies). Even their SE1a is priced at a stiff $200 (US) which will get you some decent mics (AKG Blue Line, AT 30 series pencils, etc) and that mic certainly hasn't been getting rave reviews.

I don't mind companies coming out with new products that really do provide some benefit to the market ( I think a couple companies that have done this quite successfully are Blue and Audix), but ones that try to fit into an already crowded market with "me too" products simply bore me and detract from the value of other good products in the same niche.

Sorry, I had to climb on the soapbox for a minute.

J. :D

The US price for the Titan in $1200 or thereabouts.

I agree about the me-too mics, but I would never class SE mics in that category (apart, perhaps, from their SDC mics). I think the Gemini can hold its own in very exhalted company, and as far as the Titan is concerned, I think it's a brave move. Maybe it's complete crap, but then some of the unique Blue mics are atrocious on some sources, but sublime on others. If the Titan turns out to be a good mic, I don't imagine it would fit the "general purpose" category, nor would the delicious Blue Dragon Fly (BTW I want one of these!).

I agree this line is expensive considering it's Chinese, but Blue mics can also be expensive, even though they are made in Latvia. Yet Microtech Gefell can sell cheap mics (in Europe), even though they're handmade in Germany. It's a little odd that one DPA here is worth two M296s, but just one in America. It just goes to show that pricing is complete BS.

Now it's time for me to climb down from my soapbox :wink:

John

Just for info for people using this I believe SE offer a free 7 or 14-day trial of their mics, I forget which.