Mantik,

First of all, I do NOT accept your comparison. You are comparing the organized killing of an entire group ( actually "groups") of people numbering millions to a very tenuous linkage of music to random problems of individual people. It has never been shown that the linkage you suggest actually exists at all.

Where do you draw the line? The recording & mix engineers, recording studio owner, songwriter & publisher, cover artist, record company staff & execs. all share in the dissemination of music.

I believe in free speech. Isn't that an American right according to the Constitution? Where do you draw the line? Do you censor songs about suicide? About tobacco? Lung cancer kills millions. About beer? Drunken driving kills people also & in great numbers. About eating fast food that will kill you? About "just" robbery or does it have to be about murder before you disallow it to be sold? About sex? AIDS kills horribly.

All sorts of things are glorified that are bad for society. It is the job of a parent to teach a child how to make good life-decisions & be responsible adults. Using their own minds, not to be regulated so they don't have to think for themselves.

Parents should know what their kids are listening to & who their kids hang out with & what they are doing. That is their responsability.

Boy, your attitude really bothers me. I exercise my right to take or refuse any project that comes to me. I am a thinking adult. I do not want to live in a regulated society that tells me what kind of music (or books or movies or lifestyle) is permissible by law. If I find a project very offensive by MY standards then I can refuse to do it & my studio owner will back me up. But I don't want anyone to order me by law to do or not do work on any music project. That's when dictatorship begins to creep in.

Attached files

freshtodeathvocals1.mp3 (1.6 MB)  freshtodeathvocalsmastered1.mp3 (1.6 MB) 

I'm obviously a day behind so sorry Don for my afterthoughts.
Mantik, your comparison is ignorant. First off anyone who blames someone's death on a record is an idiot! I could open a whole can of crap on this but I won't.

Being a professional engineer is to provide a service. My goal is to help people get the most out of there art. Not to judge it. If you want to criticize the material then your in the wrong business. You have the right to make a record that I may think is complete crap. And I have the right to think of it as such.

People who act out in a negative way to any kind of art have that negative energy inside and are looking for an excuse to get it out. Be it a record or waiting to long in line at a grocery store. Your logic is to say that long lines cause people to shoot the people in front for taking too long.

Don said:"The recording & mix engineers, recording studio owner, songwriter & publisher, cover artist, record company staff & execs. all share in the dissemination of music." and I feel mastering engineers too.

The focus of my question was: Do you feel that in some way you made a contribution to helping people who make music that promotes toxic ideas or images?- Which could increase the odds in favor of a really negative outcome in concerts or in peoples personal lives who listen to that type of music. Are any of you willing to assume even the slightest bit of responsibility for it?

I would feel responsible.

It's interesting to me that I didn't mention anything about CENSORSHIP ,regulations or dictatorships and yet that seems like the first thing that popped into your mind Ron.

One could almost look at the question as a psychological Rorshack Test- " what does this ink design on this paper bring up for you ?- free associate please"
I'm not in favor of censorship. The question is about feeling responsible.

Don said:"If I find a project very offensive by MY standards then I can refuse to do it & my studio owner will back me up. But I don't want anyone to order me by law to do or not do work on any music project."

I agree that this is the correct response for me too.

Joe said: Mantik, your comparison is ignorant.

You may very well be right Joe. Here's a few other things I'm also clueless about because I've never heard of it happening but maybe one of you guys have...

1.In the middle of a Classical music concert a young man get up from his seat, pulls out a small submachine gun and proceeds to empty it magazine's contents randomly into the surrounding crowd. Upon later investigation we find out that this was a result of a long standing rivalry between East-coast and West-coast producers. One side felt that the violinist just "wasn't keepin it real enough".

2. A riot breaks out in the middle of a Smooth Jazz festival. Hundreds are trampled because they are running for safety from a feuding few.

3.A few guys pay a visit to a World Music production studio and assasinate a band member working on his album.

I'm not favoring the above genres. I just haven't heard of things like that happening at events that play that type of music.

I hope you live in Riverdale . If you don't you must lead a hard angry life. I think music is a good way to release anger and frustration. Negative energy needs an outlet. Music is good for this.

So what you're saying is that it's not right to kill the clients family after a session? ooooppsss.

If this music really had that kind of impact on the psychy, then I'd be a mass killer. What ever happened to just plain crazy people. Hitler listened to Classical music and look what he turned out to be. Hell, he commissioned some of the greatest classical composers of our time. the mistake your making is your associations. Maybe the reason why there aren't tramblings at classical concerts is because the colostimy bags weight them down.

Ummm.... Ahhhhhh-nold and Sly have killed more people than NWA has.

I'd say that the violence endemic at hip hop functions is not related to the violent content of the artists' performance. I'd opine that its more related to the social conditions of the attendees. (we can discuss that further offline, if you'd like) But there is still no excuse, because the ultimate responsibility is on the individual.

America has a love affair with the macabre. How many deaths do we see on TV on a daily basis? Its funny, we can see plenty of blood, but no boobs. Sounds like population control to me.

And why must we bash rap? Geez, I'd think we all would get tired of it.

mitz

Joe said: "People who act out in a negative way to any kind of art have that negative energy inside and are looking for an excuse to get it out."

according to this view,the negative energy is present only in the person who is listening to the music. The end user.

Far be it for us to suggest that same negative energy is also present in the musical content creators. If it wasn't. If they weren't "feelin" it, then how could they possibly be "inspired" to re-create it?

Along this line of thought, I recently watched a small segment in the Bill O'Reilly show "The Factor".
There were two ganta-rap artists on that were called on there by a principle in a Philadelphia high school. The principle was complaining that their music/music videos were having a negative effect on the kids in school.
To defend himself one of the artist said that it was the responsibilty of the parents' of the kids.

I agree with that.

Then, he said "I am just a reporter of what is going on in the neighborhood that I came from."
Here we are back to the" don't blame me it's them" argument that I started this string with.

There are certain running themes in gansta-rap and other music usually connected to violence which we have all grown accustommed to.
I have a different take on this artist's response that he is "just a reporter".
I believe that if overnight all the things that he "reports" about were to disappear, he would feel that now there is nothing to report about. In other words, he would be completely lost and in a panic because the things he is "reporting" about is what he likes to see around himself and be a part of. It's what he uses to form his identity from. He wouldn't know how to function in a world where that "negative energy" doesn't exist anymore. The "negative energy is his comfort zone. If he couldn't "report" anymore about what he actually likes to see he would be unable to re-create new songs. That would mean he is out of business! So it is in the artist's best interest that the "negative energy" NEVER disappears. It's just bad business. It's not economically viable.

Michael said: "What ever happened to just plain crazy people ?" If the content creators along with the end users are "crazy" with this "negative energy", why would I want to help them?
Another point that was raised in the interview by one of the artists was " why is it that the general media paints gansta-rap as a negative with a broad brush and then they ignor all the good that we do behind the scenes like coming to the schools to talk to the kids and other outreach programs.
My response to this is that certain notorious South American drug king pins create and fund hospitals for the communities. General Electric Corp. with it's "we bring good things to life" campaigns also makes parts for nuclear weapons.
The major crude oil corporations shell out millions to "the Arts and humanities" while destroying ecosystems.

Actualy hate to - but i have to jump in here.

People buy this music because it appeals to them.... and if they act (after listening to it) it is not because of the music but rather becuase they have a propensity for that violence....

I am not an ME - nor do i have any desire to listen to this music - HOWEVER - we are talking about a commercial venture here - and to even begin to compare that to Mssr. Hitler and the things that he insituted in that time is absurd to say the least.

This genre of music does not "create" monsters - rather - it exists because there is a financial reward to the artist for performing it.

If there were no market - do you think for a moment that this would even exist beyond a small cult following and a few odd performers?

An ME holds no responsibility for what a listener to any music he has worked on does....... and the very thought of this is (to me) a prime example of one of this country's biggest problems....

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY DOESN'T EXIST ANY MORE.....

It wasn't me - it was the music....... it isn't my fault - I'm a product of my environment....
the devil made me do it..........

Please give me a break - people do what they do - because they choose to do so - it should be dealt with strictly on the basis of personal responsibility...........

When we re-enter that phase of our society then things will begin to straighten out.....

Oh - one other thing - what in the world does this have to do with the original question asked in this thread.......

General Electric Corp. with it's "we bring good things to life" campaigns also makes parts for nuclear weapons. The major crude oil corporations shell out millions to "the Arts and humanities" while destroying ecosystems.

Or was the original question just an opening for you to have a place to present your global views on the "evils" of the world? :confused: :confused:

Rod

In other words, he would be completely lost and in a panic because the things he is "reporting" about is what he likes to see around himself and be a part of. It's what he uses to form his identity from. He wouldn't know how to function in a world where that "negative energy" doesn't exist anymore. The "negative energy is his comfort zone. If he couldn't "report" anymore about what he actually likes to see he would be unable to re-create new songs.

He "likes to see" Murder, Crack, destitution, poverty, lawlessness, opression.

Hmmm....

He doesn't like to see it any more than you, my friend. He may have grown up surrounded by it, or he may not have. I did. And when you're in a situation like that, you scratch and scrape to get out of it, like my father did for our family. Going to work at 6 in the morning and getting off at 9 in the evening, seven days a week.

Until you've seen it, you have no idea about that which you speak. So please keep your uninformed opinion to yourself.

Some rappers 'report', others 'glorify'. I have a real problem with the glorifiers, however, they do present an opportunity for outsiders such as yourself to gain insight to what is happening. everything they discuss happens. I've seen it. Its ugly. None of them would ever go back to that lifestyle. Its miserable. To even suggest that they like to see it is ignorance.

mitz

Mitz,

As always, you are a class act my friend......... :tu:

:p:

Rod

If some music were to be blacklisted by the industry, or censored by the government, it would only serve to artificially fuel its existence instead of letting it stand on its own merits.
And it would surely get distributed regardless ( Prohibition was a multi-faceted failure). True?

So lets hear it all in full fidelity please. That way when I discuss the lyrics with my children, there can be no mistakes about it.

Hear it , see it, feel it, deal with it. Actually, I think it goes "see me, feel me, touch me, heal me"! Right? ;)

Censor any music or art and it will still be there, but instead it'll be hiding from an unsuspecting public. That scenario would be a true danger, IMHO. Knowledge is power and freedom to act. Censorship and illiteracy is what is holding back the unfortunate peoples of this earth that cannot begin to know how to participate in the Free World.

[ November 15, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Tommy P. ]

I conducted an experiment yesterday to see if music can actually make people act out what the music is suggesting.
I was standing on the street corner with my ipod when this knockout girl walked up and stood on the corner waiting for the light to change. I quickly selected Marvin Gayes "lets get it on" and flipped one headphone out so she could hear it. She jumped on me and we ran back to my apt and made love. Afterwards she just wouldn't leave, so I casually walked over to the stereo and put on Paul Simons "50 ways to leave your lover". Before the song was over, she was gone. I ordered a pizza and thought about how I could use this new found power of music. I put on Saturday night fever and by the end of the album, I was dancing like a pro. wow, this is great I thought. unfortunately I played 100 bottles of beer on the wall and now i'm a drunk.

Mitz, Rod, Tommy P., Paul & Michael:

You guys are a breath of fresh air.

If there was no market for this stuff, it would go away. Since millions of people worldwide seem to like & buy this music, it remains in the public eye & others blame the music for personal actions. Maybe instead, Mantek should start a publicity campaign to bring back big band music or end violence in society in general. Now that might be useful!.

Don

Haha Michael, MANTIK is soooo going to play "Shut up when I'm talking to you" sometime about now.

Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
I quickly selected Marvin Gayes "lets get it on" and flipped one headphone out so she could hear it. She jumped on me and we ran back to my apt and made love.

Marvin Gaye's a special case. That shit actually works! :)

Very interesting....
I think that Mantik's thoughts are a little heavy, yet promote some debate, so fine.

Gangster Rap?? I think that Rap and Hip Hop are just new genres of music in a modern time. Gangsters have always liked music, it is not a new thing. I can't imagine that gangsters in the 1950's listened to Hip Hop, yet it's probably safe to say that they listened to something. I have never seen any photos of Miles Davis packing a gun, yet I'm pretty sure he had his own ideas of what having fun can be... On the other hand, Sinatra was rumoured to have certain underworld relations. I don't recall his music making the Hip Hop charts.

Don mentioned once that he mastered a track called "Sandstorm" by an artist called Darude. This track has no lyrics. Although I am a HUGE electronic music fan, I can't recall ever seeing what Darude looks like either.
This track was a techno anthem for all time, HUGE. kids and adults alike have surely danced in warehouses and at raves time and time again whacked on all sorts of chemicals listening to Sandstorm. Should Don not have mastered that one based on genre alone? Should he have thought, "I won't master this instrumental techno track because kids might think it's good and good techno instrumentals make kids do crazy things...."? That would be silly.
Like I said, I've never seen what the producer looks like and there is not a single lyric in the track that instructs me to do anything that might be considered "bad". Sometimes just the simple art of music appeals to certain people, what they do with it is an individual's choice.

Sorry but if it's good, I'll listen to it.

Regards,
mIchAEl
P.S. Don, you're a stud.

Michael,

That was nothing short of eloquent.......... :c: '

To all you guys.......... you're nothing but the best........

:p:

Rod

Paul said: "I hope you live in Riverdale"
Mitzelplik said:"Until you've seen it, you have no idea about that which you speak. So please keep your uninformed opinion to yourself."

For the benefit of the few who may not know. Paul's comment refers to a section of the Bronx,NY that is like what the upper eastside is to Manhattan. Paul obviously went through the trouble of looking at my member info. and discovered that I live in the Bronx.

To: both Paul and Mitzelplik - I'm sorry. I done you both a disservice. I have left you uninformed. This puts a bit of a wrinkle in your statements...

Until the age of 22, I was born and lived in the area that during the 1970's under the Carter presidential administration the U.S. media labelled "the national symbol of urban decay" - the South Bronx! That means that there was no other place and bad as that one in the good old USA. Pretty much everything you hear in this type of music, I was forced to live with and witness. I however wasn't an active participant in the madness. My family was on welfare. I got over it and moved out. I didn't feel it was worthwhile to constantly "report" on something that was obviously harmful to others. There is more to life that being a "hood" but these guys are still stuck in the same record groove. I have a suggestion: stop being bleeding hearts for these guys.

To Rod: While I admit using the setting of Hitler as a showcase was over-the-top. I wanted to focus your attention not on hilter's exploits but instead on one of his henchmen's unwillingness to accept responsibility, which is the very point that you made, Rod."PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY DOESN'T EXIST ANY MORE"

To answer your question, I was trying to show a similarity in the mode of operation that G.E. and major Oil companies have and the impression the answer of the artist on Bill O'Rielly's show. Specifically, his stance about the positive things he said that those guys do and the positive that those companies either actually say or try to lead you believe that they do in hopes to downplay all the harm that they actually cause. I see it as a way of sanitizing their image.

To: Michael - I appreciate the logic of your humor. However, I believe that music has a powerful magnetic quality to it. It attracts a certain mindset depending which genre you wish to listen to. My view on this thing is in the form of a question to myself. If I have seen a track record develop over time of fairly frequent outbreaks of violence in connection with a certain style of music, why would I wanted to add more fuel to the fire by adjusting certain audio qualities of it in order to make it even more alluring to the ear? I begin to feel responsible for it in some way. Especially, since I came from the same type of environment that is portrayed is this genre. I've been there. I've seen the destructive effect the style of thinking showcased in the music has on people that lived there. Wanna-be and real gansters are attracted to the mindset of this music and unfortunately there will be innocent people in their midst when the Sh*t hits the fan in those gatherings. And what is the element with that magnetic quality to bring them altogether into a human chemical reaction? The music.

Still, I still haven't promoted censorship. Why do you guys keep harping on that?

Mantek,

This brings me back to the question: " Why do so many people from so many different backgrounds, nationalities (rap / hip hop has affected the music of Jamaica, India, Japan, Russia, Great Britan & more) keep liking and buying this stuff"?

I agree that the glorifying of drugs & violence is not desireable. But the public seems to want to listen to more & more of it.

Tastes in music change over time. I really think that the worst of that glorifying may be slowing down. It's a society thing, not a mastering thing.

People thought that Elvis Presley was the devil incarnate. People thought that Charlie Parker & Dizzy Gillespie were also spreading the disease of loose behavior & drugs. People thought that the Beatles were ruining society by having long hair & questioning authority & speaking out.

I think there is too great an acceptance of violence (in actuality & in language) & racism in general in our world. It's an easy excuse to blame the music. People choose how they are going to conduct their lives. People are looking for the quick fix & immediate gratification. Quick money, quick sex, quick solution of problems with a gun. Perhaps Gangsta Rap is a symptom of this.

I have worked on many Rap / Hip Hop tunes that preach understanding & are clearly against drugs & violence. These should be heard also.

I do not believe that the mastering engineer is going to change society by turning away jobs. The music will get out. Even in communist Russia, R & R got heard despite an entire nation's government effort to stop it.

I think we must all act to stop the root of the problem ourselves (in our lives & everyday actions) & not blame the problem on music. The music will change when society changes.

I believe you are promoting the idea of censorship because how else do you propose to stop the music from coming out?

Hate to say it, but "It's Evolution, baby."

People make choices about the music they listen to.
Whether they are influenced by the lyrical content or not is dependant on a lot of different factors.
Those who are influenced by negative messages, will see that influence reflected negatively in their life.
Those who are influenced by positive messages will likewise see that reflected in their life.

The successful live on to breed, and so on...

Sorry, I've been reading a lot of Vonnegut lately

Originally posted by MANTIK:
I've been there. I've seen the destructive effect the style of thinking showcased in the music has on people that lived there. Wanna-be and real gansters are attracted to the mindset of this music and unfortunately there will be innocent people in their midst when the Sh*t hits the fan in those gatherings. And what is the element with that magnetic quality to bring them altogether into a human chemical reaction? The music.

I had a feeling you didn't grow up in Riverdale. You would be a good bleeding heart in baggy pants if you did. Nothing like dealing with that shit to make you hard. Ironic, huh.

So if they stopped selling blunts at the bodega no one would smoke? If you broke all the radios flowers would bloom. If we didn't work on the music it would go away. You don't think you can sacrifice a cat to Schoenberg instead of Slayer?

Originally posted by MANTIK:
I recently watched a small segment in the Bill O'Reilly show "The Factor".

I submit that this is just as dangerous and listening to RAP/ HIP HOP / GANGSTA' .... and therein lies the issue. Self control and censorship.

Rappers; Stop talkin' 'bout bitches, bump and grind, drugs and murder and MANTIK;, stop watching the O"Rielly show (Rush Limbaugh too!). For the love of gawd! Everyone please, excersise a little self control... :D ohh! the humanity!

[ November 18, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

MANTIK

you - IMHO - are the perfect example that your fears are unfounded............

Regardless of where you came from - and what you listened to - you show up here in the end - a wonderful human being who cares for others.........

Don't worry about the music my friend........ those like you will never be destroyed by it.....

Sincerely,

Rod

.... Edvard Munch's painting "the scream" gave me nightmare's when I was a kid. Hmmm, maybe I should go after the guy who sold him the canvas.

As a young child, I listened to wierd al, now I'm ruined...

Originally posted by Rod Gervais:
Mitz,

As always, you are a class act my friend......... :tu:

:p:

Rod

Thanks Rod. Sorry for the delayed response, my baby girl was born Sunday. Check the announcement in the RO Bar + Grill.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I can't stand uninformed opinions. To me, they're exemplary of willful ignorance. No hard feelings
though.

mitz

MITZ!!!

Congrats' Daddy! I couldn't find your post in the B&G so I'll just say it here...

I think it is extremely naive and disingenuous for any fair-minded intelligent individual to honestly believe that the particular genre of music in question here does NOT influence behavior, values and morals...well....whatever morals and social "norms" are left, anyway. Gangsta Rap's glorification/reflection of the lowest denominators of ghetto life sells records alright, but it seeks to legitimize this "art form" as the mainstream "music"...and maybe it is at this point. What I see and hear is occasional fine poetry, kewl but "getting old" beats, ANGRY pissed off African-American faces sneering down the lens, and showing off the gold, crotch-grabbing, ho's, and big-ticket items. Just as the cure for cancer may have gone up and out the chimney at Auschwitz, the REAL talent (ala Motown, etc) IMHO is being "lost" by the overabundance of REALLY piss-poor "music", and lowered (societally dumbed down) expectations of the listening public. My 2 cents. :)
Check out this interesting article, albeit strong and heavy on content: Article regarding Gangsta Rap. An African-American's perspective...

P.S. Friggin way to go, Mitz!! Mazel Tov!!!!!

Mantik,

You grew up in the south Bronx, fine.

You saw "it." You experienced "it."

That makes your comments even more inexplicable. What kind of sick individual enjoys seeing and participating in such conditions? How could you think that of your fellow human being?

I grew up in a suburban city in the Baltimore Washington Metro Area. And I have seen some pretty terrible things. I can only imagine the horrors of the South Bronx.

And how do you compare words to actions? Standard oil. Ice T. Hitler. NWA. You can't be serious. Building a Nuclear Bomb. Talking about a .50 Caliber. Different leagues.

I agree that it is repulsive what they glorify. But I think the responsibility of an individual's actions is with the individual. And once more, the social conditions of an individual are much more powerful a force than the music they listen to.

mitz

And once more, the social conditions of an individual are much more powerful a force than the music they listen to.

So very true.....AND...those two particular societal influences play off each other in given individual, and are most often inseparable in the psyche of the "affected" masses. This particular type of Rap music is almost always responsible for being the catalyst for further fomentation of rage/hopelessness/anger/violence/drug and criminal activity. For some reason, I have had a lifelong interest and like for ALL types and genres of the art of musical expression, with the exception of this "glorification" Rap. Best should go the way of the dinosaur. Popular culture will obviously dictate this. In a historical context, the previous sentence is scary as shite! :d: ---Lee

Originally posted by Lee Tyler:
So very true.....AND...those two particular societal influences play off each other in given individual, and are most often inseparable in the psyche of the "affected" masses. This particular type of Rap music is almost always responsible for being the catalyst for further fomentation of rage/hopelessness/anger/violence/drug and criminal activity.

I can't disagree more. On a personal level, I know many, many individuals who are or have been involved in the darker side of the human experience. People who have killed, assaulted, sold drugs, etc. I am dead serious. None of them have ever expressed that their condition is, in any way, influenced by the music they listen to. Those who changed their lives didn't do so because they stopped listening to gangster rap.

I attended a black institution. They all listened to the SAME EXACT music. Where is the correlation?

I actually find that those individuals who had strong fathers in their lives (such as myself) were less likely to be involved in activities like those. Although there have been exceptions in my experience. I also find that monetary affluence plays a part. Those are only two conditions.

My point is, until we can conclusively relate the level of violence to the individual's intake of a certain category or sub-category of music, it is pure nonsense to draw the conclusions that have been drawn here.

If there is a connection, then show me some proof. I'm empirical in nature, show me some numbers. If not, then we are discussing conjecture. I don't mean to be rude, but I really can't believe what I'm reading here.

mitz

from the twisted mind of a man to the engineer to the record company to the seller to the publicist to the buyer back into the economy to the government who alows freedom of speech...to you to you ....you the voter the surveyor you are in this chain this link this domino effect you are as guilty as the next....the next time you pass a beutiful woman on the road and have lude thoughts slap yourself go home and divorce your wife you have just commited adultery......lock yourself away monk ...don't partake in society

I nearly pissed myself when I read this last post, not because I thought it was funny, but because I really had to goto the bathroom. There's no doubt that the parents of a child are largely responsible for how they interprate the media around them. You can't let a child sit through a horror flick and not understand that there are people behind the scenes having fun throwing colored paints around.

That's not the greatest example or relationship or whatever, just another point to be considered. Also, I know alot of artists or movie makers do what they do because they are just selfish and often greedy. That's not a great attitude, and not all their fault, but it's probably gonna just apply to more and more people especially considering the way we've gone about things like this.

Originally posted by MANTIK:
You may very well be right Joe. Here's a few other things I'm also clueless about because I've never heard of it happening but maybe one of you guys have...

1.In the middle of a Classical music concert a young man get up from his seat, pulls out a small submachine gun and proceeds to empty it magazine's contents randomly into the surrounding crowd. Upon later investigation we find out that this was a result of a long standing rivalry between East-coast and West-coast producers. One side felt that the violinist just "wasn't keepin it real enough".

2. A riot breaks out in the middle of a Smooth Jazz festival. Hundreds are trampled because they are running for safety from a feuding few.

3.A few guys pay a visit to a World Music production studio and assasinate a band member working on his album.

I'm not favoring the above genres. I just haven't heard of things like that happening at events that play that type of music.

Then you do not know very much about music history.When "The Rites of Spring" was premiered just prior to WW1,it was considered so much a break with traditional classical music that the audience rioted,threw atricles at the performers like rotten fruit, and chairs,then closed down the theater.The hatred that existed for this modern style of music was sufficent enough that if the audience members had been armed they would likely have engaged in large scale gang style murders,just like rappers.

The social underpinings of the rejection of Stravinskys music at that time were in large measure responsible for the chaos that led to the unmitigated cargnage known as World War One.And if you think WW2 was bad,a serious analyses of WW1 makes it look like a virtual walk in the park.

Mitzelplik to mantik: "My point is, until we can conclusively relate the level of violence to the individual's intake of a certain category or sub-category of music, it is pure nonsense to draw the conclusions that have been drawn here."
"If there is a connection, then show me some proof. I'm empirical in nature, show me some numbers. If not, then we are discussing conjecture."

I can't offer you any numbers off hand but maybe these professional researchers/behavioral scientists can.
Try downloading this .pdf file
a report - Violent Attitudes and Deferred Academic Aspirations: Deleterious Effects of Exposure to Rap Music - James D.Johnson,Lee Anderson Jackson, and Leslie Gatto - University of North Carolina at Wilmington

from: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://faculty.nwac…"]http://faculty.nwac… and violence.pdf[/]="http://faculty.nwac…"]http://faculty.nwac… and violence.pdf[/]

Try reading this book offered at amazon.com
The Hip Hop Generation: Young Blacks and the Crisis in African American Culture
by Bakari Kitwana
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0465029795/?tag=r06fa-20

Also, the following studies are available from the National Institutes of Health National Library of Medicine > National Center for Biotechnology Information http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I haven't yet figured out how to get these reports from this website.

1. A prospective study of exposure to rap music videos and African American female adolescents' health.by: Wingood GM, DiClemente Ralph J., Bernhardt JM, Harrington K, Davies SL, Robillard A, Hook EW 3rd
Am J Public Health. 2003 Mar;93(3):437-9.
PMID: 12604490 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Communications: Impact of rock lyrics and music videos on children and youth.
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Ah Yes, Ignorance is bliss isn't it?

Mitzelplik to mantik:"What kind of sick individual enjoys seeing and participating in such conditions? How could you think that of your fellow human being?"

Possibly this type of personality...

The one that like to put two Pit-bull dogs in a fight to the death with each other for entertainment and financial gain.

The one that likes to be a part a roaming group of kids on the street where one kid Sucker -Punches someone on the street while the others video tape the whole thing and play the tape back later for laughs.

The one that likes to form underground fight clubs in Summer camps that our little kid go away to for school break so they can place bets on who wins.

The one that like to torture defenceless animals like setting squirrels on fire in the park with lighter fluid for some excitement on a otherwise boring day.

The one that likes shoving pine cones up the rectum of rookies in a public school sport team as a hazing ritual and trying to keep it a secret.

The one that hides inside of a police dept. and shoves broken broom sticks up the rectum of it's prisoners for entertainment.

The one like Joel Steinberg (a lawyer by day and wife abuser by night) who completely demolished his wife's (Hedda Nusbaum) face.

Johnnyrock to mantik: "Then you do not know very much about music history" Your almost there johnny. It's not music history we should be paying attention to it History period! So the question now becomes...Where have I seen the overall undertone of thinking (philosophy) in gansta rap music before, Historically speaking?
This article I think starts getting really close to answering that question ... http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/a/m/amp237/Nazism.html

[ November 23, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MANTIK ]

This is a moderated forum right,there are rules for conduct and language?If a poster violates those rules they can be ejected from the forum.Correct? That's a form of censorship,it is however legal censorship when undertaken by the private owner of this sight.Would the lyrics and attitudes expressed by some of the most extreme gangster rappers and death metal types be tolerates on this forum if they were used in the context of general expression,human being to human being? I doubt it.

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Mantik,
That's an impressive list you came up with. Unfortunately this is Social Science so proof is hard to come by. I suppose in comes down to either being a Utopian or a Pragmatist.

Mantik,

The list is impressive, however it only demonstrates your ability to do a bibliography. Don't take it as an insult, but I could come up with an impressive list to support my theories also. I have perused two of the links, namely this one:
http://faculty.nwacc.edu/jburden/rap%20and%20violence.pdf

and this one:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/a/m/amp237/Nazism.html

Article number one, begins with findings. Groups are 'exposed', the control group is not 'exposed'

Group number one tends more towards accepting violence than group two.

Fine.

It then goes on to quote other works that support the notion that exposure to violence in media tends to increase the likelihood of performing violent acts.

Good stuff, and I actually agree with that premise, to the extent that its not narrowed in scope to include one particular sub-genre of one particular medium. So once again, Ice Cube or Rambo?

I went on to read a description of its subjects. Fourty-six young black boys, aged 11-16, all of whom are members of the same organization in the same city. Our scope is now further narrowed.

Their results, while fairly legitimate given the scope of the work, fail to take into account several million factors. Just like every other social study.

That's why I asked for empirical data. Show me that those 'exposed' have committed more crime. Then show me that they committed more crime because they are 'exposed'

So we are still discussing opinion.

Article two:

Mantik, why would you even put that link there? Where is Amber's evidence? Supporting documents? Okay she doesn't have any, that's fine. But what's not fine is that she doesn't specify that everything she is saying is strictly personal opinion.

However, despite popular belief, evil is not the product of people who feel confident in their ability to negotiate reality. Evil has always been the product of have-nots not of haves. How ironic that the evil character in all our stories is always a cool, confident, intelligent man!

I dare you to take any evil in the world and see if it meets this criterion. You will find that it does. Take the Columbine students for example. The Columbine students saw the world the way most high school students do - as a very rigid class system, (known as "cliques"). Viewing themselves as the oppressed clique, they took their rage out on what they felt to be the ruling clique, killing 13 of their fellow high school students.

Interesting. And your basis is? Her views are so twisted, IMO, that I am astonished that you even included that article.

The amount of violent or misogynistic rap videos viewed by a person who then performs an act of violence is quantifiable, as is the number of schwartzenegger movies he or she has seen. As is the number of times he was spanked, as is the number of kung fu movies he has seen, as is the number of pornos he has viewed, as is the number of schoolyard fights he has seen, as is the number of violent and misogynistic cartoons he has seen (like tom and jerry, and Betty Boob, oops I mean betty boop).

How can we quantify the effects of these media on the future actions of our youth and adults? Simple: we can't. Why? A human being is a product of both his environment and his heritage.

A male child who was raised in an abusive home is, according to your line of thinking, more prone to be abusive down the line, right?

If we accept that premise, the we come to the conclusion that some of those people will become abusive husbands and fathers, and others won't. But we have achieved nothing, because we still have no idea which of them will or won't, or what percentage of them will or won't. Nothing besides affirming common sense.

I could go on,

mitz

Originally posted by johnnyrock:
This is a moderated forum right,there are rules for conduct and language?If a poster violates those rules they can be ejected from the forum.Correct? That's a form of censorship,it is however legal censorship when undertaken by the private owner of this sight.Would the lyrics and attitudes expressed by some of the most extreme gangster rappers and death metal types be tolerates on this forum if they were used in the context of general expression,human being to human being? I doubt it.

Would these lyrics cause a member of this formu to go out and rape somebody? I doubt it.

By the eighties, the ghetto had become a ruleless war zone, where black people were their own worst enemies. It would be silly, of course, to blame hip-hop for this sad downward spiral, but by glamorizing life in the “war zone,” it has made it harder for many of the kids stuck there to extricate themselves...

Anecdotal, Mantik, not empirical. Not proof.

The attitude and style expressed in the hip-hop “identity” keeps blacks down. Almost all hip-hop, gangsta or not, is delivered with a cocky, confrontational cadence that is fast becoming—as attested to by the rowdies at KFC—a common speech style among young black males.

So life imitates art. Of course the chicken came first.

just where, exactly, the civil rights–era blacks might have gone wrong in lacking a hip-hop revolution. They created the world of equality, striving, and success I live and thrive in.

Hah. The Civil Rights movement destroyed true black economic viability. The Civil Rights movement created a world of the same shit the world was made of before: dirt water and rocks. Opressed and opressors. What did it change? Well, for one, racism is no longer socially acceptible, at least here, in the continental US, against blacks, blacks born here, in the continental US.

Right

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