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anonymous 28 July 2005

Ive been using a Panasonic CD/CDr/CD-RW recorder to record my final mixs (its an older unit,at least 5 yrs old).
If Im not mistaken,the recorder is 16 bit,Im looking into a newer CD recorder thats 24 bit.
Im running my final mix via a mixer,then into a TC Electronic finalizer,then into my CD burnerit leaves the mixer as analog,but outputs from the TC Electronic Finalizer as digital into the burner.
My question is,does the finalizer have to be 24bit to match a CD recorder thats 24 bit to get the clarity--or will the burner add more clarity due to the fact that it 24 bit?

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anonymous Thu, 07/28/2005 - 11:05

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: All audio CD's are 16 bit. If you want to record at 24 bit, then you'll need something like a masterlink that you can then print what they call CD24 discs. But these won't play in a normal CD player. Eventually you will have to bump it down to 16 bit if you want to make an audio CD that people can play in their CD players.

Thanks Mike-----thats all I need to know for now.
Im sure I have 100 questions to ask,but I have to do my homework before I do.
One things for sure---------Its not all that easy. :cry:Doing what you (master techs) do

Randyman... Mon, 08/01/2005 - 20:13

Yes - please elaborate. This looks like a dual sided CD with a 16 Bit Redbook CD on one side, and a 24 Bit "Computer/CD24" format on the other side? I doubt this format will "Take off" either.

Besides, Windows Media Player (and probably iTunes ad most other "Jukeboxes") won't recognize 24 Bit Files, so the teeny-boppers won't be able to rip that 24 Bit audio into a 128kbps MP3 :lol: :lol:

I don't think 24 bits of dynamic range at the end-user will do ANYTHING to bring dynamics back to pop music, and I really don't think the 16 Bit CD is "starved" for dymanic range as-is. It is the material we put ONTO the CD's that is "Starved for Dynamics" IMO . I'm guilty of this, too...

So, what's with the websites? Are you doing this "24 Bit Hybrid" thing for Shania Twain's CD? Say "Hi" to Mutt for me :lol: . Where are you getting 24 Bit Masters from for this process? Just curious about your involvement, twenty4.

:cool:

iznogood Tue, 08/02/2005 - 08:17

"I don't think 24 bits of dynamic range at the end-user will do ANYTHING to bring dynamics back to pop music, and I really don't think the 16 Bit CD is "starved" for dymanic range as-is. It is the material we put ONTO the CD's that is "Starved for Dynamics" IMO . I'm guilty of this, too... "

AMEN!!!!!

anonymous Tue, 08/02/2005 - 11:27

My 24-bit CD.

ok without getting into the politics of audio or the current state of pop music...

here's how it works...

it's just a standard red-book/bluebook(enhanced) cd.
16 bits are sent to the audio portion of the disc
the remaining 8 are sent to the data portion.

some extra space is used for syncronization and error-detection.

just think of it as "CD24" that also plays 16 bits on a regular cd player.

i wrote this program.
i hope some of you like the idea, i can use all the support i can get.

the fact is that 24 sounds better than 16,
and HDCD was a lie.

it's called B.R.P. (or BiRP)

binary reserve process

or, the Bit Replacement Program, which sounds "snazzier" don't you think? ;)

as far as 24 bit source material, i have none.

currently i am in contact with 3 bands who are recording at 24/96 for their next release.

they will allow me to put this extra data on their forthcoming cd's.

my goal is to get at least 20-50 titles encoded in .brp within 12-15 months time.

the decoder will either be present on the cd it came on, or may have a link to download the free (for now?) decoder.

in the end everyone likes better sounding music and so many computers are coming shipped with 24-bit capabilities.

i could really use some sample material if anyone is intrigued enough to help me out.

otherwise i have been using ripped wav from brand new cd's i bought, then reduced by -24dB for 20-bit encoder, -48dB for 24-bit encoder.

and by the way little suzy can make mp3's out of it.

also, if mutt asks, you DID NOT see me with shania the other day ok?

_______________________
cute little saying here

Michael Fossenkemper Tue, 08/02/2005 - 19:50

I think it sounds interesting...

One question, you said the redbook portion is 16 bit derived from a 24bit source and the remaining 8 bits are in the data portion. So if someone were to play the redbook audio on their CD player, then they would be listening to 16bit truncated audio? The type of music that would really benifit from 24bit would not sound great at 16bit truncated. Music that doesn't suffer too much with 16 bit truncation would probably not benifit with 24bit. I would be interested in taking a listen to it. If you need material, I have tons I could pick from.

What i've been doing for some clients that want 24bit is just burn them a DVD-V disc with 24/48k files as a slideshow. Plays on any DVD player.

anonymous Tue, 08/02/2005 - 23:04

heres an idea

Have you even heard of the masterlink by alesis. It is a great unit to put and store your mixes in. It has a hard drive (30/40 gig?) and it has on board compression, eq, normalizer, limiter and many more functions. I use one at all the time on every mix. I think it is a great affordable unit. about 799.00 you can find them less. Very good intestment.

anonymous Wed, 08/03/2005 - 06:47

masterlink / dithering...

yes the masterlink is nice, but CD24 discs do not play on regular cd players.

as far as the dithering issue goes...

i'm working on it. there are several ways of doing it.

simplest way would be to just throw an extra bit or two per sample, but i have a few ideas that might be better.

by the way, this cd can store anywhere from 17 to 24 or even 32 bits, and can support 44.1 and 88.2 sampling rate.

anyway if you want to email me some tracks that would be great!

you could rar them into 10mb chunks (non-sfx), or just let me know how to get them -- thanks!

twentyfourbits@yahoo.com

Randyman... Wed, 08/03/2005 - 18:59

This actually does sound interesting, but I concur with Michael Fossenkemper's comments about 16 bit truncation on very dynamic material.

Anyway, I wish you luck and hope you can get this worked out. I won't tell Mutt that I saw you with Shania if you don't tell Mutt she was at my house last night :lol: "If the house is a' rockin, don't come a' knockin' " :wink:

:cool:

anonymous Wed, 08/03/2005 - 21:04

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: I feel vinyl sounds good for other reasons rather than detail. I think that vinyl has less detail than modern digital.

So which do you prefer?----vinyl,or,digital.
Ive seen alot of digital recordest round these parts go full circle,,,,,.
theve started with vinyl....gone digital.....bought a-shit load of gear to make it sound vinyl........then..........e-bay all there digital........and kick them selves in the ass for selling there vinyl-----one has to wonder :lol:

anonymous Wed, 08/03/2005 - 22:08

please note again that this project WILL support optional dithering of the 16 bit material. i just havent decided how i want to do it yet.

that format should be fine -- if i have any problems i'll let you know.

i agree with you about vinyl, i knew i shouldn't have said the V-word lol.

mike, i don't know much about dvd-v audio specs other than that it is 48k as opposed to 44.1, but i thought that all audio on the dvd-v spec was mpeg compressed. am i wrong?

i'm also starting to think that for this to be easy, maybe i should just create a CD24-to-24bitcd encoder.

thank you everyone, any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated

love, Brandon

anonymous Thu, 08/04/2005 - 06:20

Twenty4:
I don't know if this is the way you do this.. but wouldn't it be possible to have the normal 16bit CD track with 1 bit dithering for normal CD players. And the 24 bit mode would cut the lsb away (wich would get you rid of the dithering) and then add a 9bit file with the rest of the 24bit information. I think that would work.

anonymous Thu, 08/04/2005 - 10:23

24-bit CD dithering

yes gnarr that is the basic idea.

i don't want to get all mathmatical here so lets just say you buy something off TV for $19.99 -- if you have to pay a penny for shipping and handling now it's $20.00, which has changed all four of the digits.

so what i've been doing is tracking the difference between the truncated 16 and the dithered 16, which requires 2 bits because the value could be anywhere from -1 to +1 for dithering that is less than 1 bits deep.

since space is at a premium on this format, i've been kicking around a few other ideas in my mad-scientist brain.

i've been working on this project since last november and everytime i solve one problem i realize that there are 3 more issues to be dealt with.

so for now i'm putting the issues of dithering and encryption on the back burner, i want to get at least 10 titles encoded before i change much from version 1.0.

since dithering seems to have the most profound effect on the very soft passages of music, like fade-outs, i'm considering some kind of dynamic dithering where it turns on and off at the appropriate time. i'm not sure if i like this idea or not, but i will say that HDCD uses this principle.

so to sum it up, yes gnarr that is the basic idea;)

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