Anybody who has experience with a very small mic like Sennheiser MKE2 inside the bass?

DPA makes some sub-miniature omni condensers that are ideal for this. The 4060, 4061 & 4062 are about the size of your little fingernail. The frequency response curves DPA publishes show them to be ruler flat up to 10khz, rising gently by 2db at 15khz and back down by 20khz. I havent heard them myself, but I've heard good things about them. They are supposed to have the lowest self-noise of any mics this size. List price on the 60 & 61 (hi & low sensitivity) is $399; the Xlo sensitivity 62 is $589. Take a look at http://www.dpamicrophones.com .

Scott

I like the sound you get with a mike as Neumann
KM 84 placed inside the bridge. A trick that i've learned, instead of wrapping the mike in foam, that seems to dampen the tone sometimes, is using a couple of rubber bands bent around the bridge and hanging the mike in there, a sort of elastic suspension..
You want to try a cardioid pattern in this case to avoid bleed and get a focused and full sound.
You should baffle around the bass too that helps a lot and still mantains visual between musicians.
There are a few clip on mikes that i've heard doing a good job but i've never used them. Those are small capsules condenser AT the atm 35( with this you can change the capsules too ) or similar in AKG, BEYER range. Jo

Yo Guys, thanks a lot for responding. I will try that small DPA mic.

About visual contact; I have a room next to the tracking room and there are windows so there is always visual contact, but still they don't want it and I guess I have to keep the customer satisfied.

I tried to please the bassplayer with a monitor beside him (not loud of course) and in the tracking room the bass on the monitors and some don't have a problem doing so.

Like I said, I'll try the baby DPA which is as small as the Sennheiser MKE. I'll also try the omni under the bridge and the KM84 in the bridge with rubber bands.

Thanx :w:

>>
Han, that's what i was saying, whatever your mike or technique is going to be, since the guy is going to be in the same room with the other musicians and not in the iso booth, you should surround him with baffles, of about 1,20 mt. height, in a way to get the necessary isolation and still maintaning the visual contact.
Have a good session and fun. Jo

Thanks a lot Jo, I will definately have fun, I always have and I hope it will be a good session.
Two inch tape, big analog console, classic mics, plenty of beer, I'll do the best I can, so what can go wrong? :) :)

Peace, Han

Hello Han,

What is the set-up? is it rythm section ( drums,UpRight Bass, Piano,Gtr) and horns?
How big is/what are the room demensions.
I've got a sure fire way to Mic all that. With all of the players in the room, together. With little or no headphones; everybody hears everybody the way they're used to.... the added benefit of this approach is: they perform better and the sound you'll get -with all of that bleed- will give you "that" classic bigband (or little combo) sound....let me know.

Originally posted by Han:

Two inch tape, big analog console, classic mics, plenty of beer, I'll do the best I can, so what can go wrong? :) :)

Spilled beer on the big analog console?
:(

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Hello Han,

What is the set-up? is it rythm section ( drums,UpRight Bass, Piano,Gtr) and horns?
How big is/what are the room demensions.
I've got a sure fire way to Mic all that. With all of the players in the room, together. With little or no headphones; everybody hears everybody the way they're used to.... the added benefit of this approach is: they perform better and the sound you'll get -with all of that bleed- will give you "that" classic bigband (or little combo) sound....let me know.

Yo RecorderMan

Drums, upright bass :) banjo, trumpet, bones, sax/clarinet, vocals and a couple of songs with grand piano.
The room is 6m x 5m (20' x 18') and I seldom use headphones. I don't have problems to get a good sound, I once got a maximum score of 10 for a jazz CD I've recorded and it got CD of the month in an important magazine. The only problem is the bass, some play if very soft and the spill is too much, some have pickups and an amp which sound awful. So I was thinking of a very small high quality mic inside the bass!
I have plenty of good mics like Neumann M149, KM184, AKG C451, C3000, C1000, D12, Sennheiser MD441, MD421, MD 416, Beyer M88, M69, M201, Shure SM57/58 and some AT dynamics, PZM's.
I'm very interested in your opinion and how you work.

Thanks a lot, Han

the off axis response of a MD441 is very nice :) :)

Originally posted by littledog:

Spilled beer on the big analog console?
:(

LOL!! NO FOOD AND DRINKS IN THE CONTROL ROOM, AND NO SMOKING TOO. :( :eek: :confused: ??

Peace

(sometimes worse)

Originally posted by Han:

the off axis response of a MD441 is very nice :) :)

Let me explain my Jazz Band/Combo set-up and in the midst of that answer your Bass question.
A. Picture a Large circle.
you are at 6 o'clock ( the control room), looking out at this circle that extends in front of you.
B. Centered at 9 oclock is the rythm section:
if we place our-selves @ 9 o'clock looking @ 3 o'clock we place-left to right:
1. Drums: miked w/ OH's(451's if tou have a Pair), kick(421) & snare(condenser or 57).
2. To the Right of the drums is the Stand Up Bass. Take a D.I. and mic. I usually use a U67; in your case Maybe try the M149, or theD12 (to limit bleed a tad-although Bleed is partn of the sound). A short Goboe between the drums and Bass is help-full. If the Bassist has an amp, place it behind him and have it on, just loud enough, to hear him/herself.
3. Immediately to the right of the Bass place the grand Piano, Lid Up facing away from the Drums. Large Diaphram Condenser mic directly over, and pointed down, into one of the holes, pointing at the Diaphram uinderneath the frame at the lower end. One Small Condenser mic directly over, and pointed down, into one of the holes, pointing at the Diaphram uinderneath the frame at the Upper end. The paino this close to the drums will minimize the predelay in the bleed between the two. The Mic placement will emphasize that woody tone on classic jazz LP's. they'll be set-up close to how they are live. they'll play great, and the bleed will be most of the "verb" you'll need.
4. To the right of the Piano, I'd place the Banjo. Any mic you like...57 will do just fine.
5. centered on 3 o'clock facing the rythm section you place your horns, in a semi-circle.
I favor Large Diapharm condensers(w/tubes if you got them) on Saxes and Clarinets. Ribbons(preffferrably) or large Diaphram Condensers (w/Pad pn), thirdly followed by Dynamics; for Trumpets and Bones.
This palcement will insure that the right combination of bleed will be good. You won't need phones, and they'll play well together.

C. A D.I. with pref a U67, or other (their are no real rules) should be all you need. Don't worry about the bleed. This all predicates that the person can play...most jazz musicians can. You can even punch on his track...and in the context of all the other mic's shouldn't notice the differrence between his sound between the live take (with it's bleed) and the punched spots. You will obviously in solo, but with all mics in...probably not. I usually place the mic up around the bridge, a few inches out. I will say that the rolled up mic underb the bridge sounds like a good try also. Although I've never needed to do it other than what I've described.

Hey RecorderMan, thank you so much for your advice, I will certainly do it like you explained.

I was thinking to do it in the much bigger room outside the control and the tracking room, as you can see on my website.

Thanks again

Peace :w:

Originally posted by Han:
Hey RecorderMan, thank you so much for your advice, I will certainly do it like you explained.

Peace :w:

Do you mean the one with the car in the picture?

Onme more point. Don't worry about bleed. when you get ALL the mics up to a balance you'll start to see why all you need for the drums ( for instance) is probably the OH. ALL the other mics act as multi-taps on the room which as a whole will give you that real old-school Capitol records kinda drum sound...along with everything else.

Have fun....I LOVE TRACKING as much as mixing (if not more)

If the Bassist has an amp, place it behind him and have it on, just loud enough, to hear him/herself.

forgot to memtion:
If the Bassist doesn't have an amp. send an aux send of the bass track (so you can adjust level) to an amp and then a speaker (like a spare Tannoy, etc) ; place this behind the Bassist. It REALLY helps to support them acoustically so that they play more even, and so that the drummer can hear him better, with the horns and all. Just a touch in volume will do...you don't need alot.

Hey RecorderMan, you are a big help, thanks a million bro!!

Yes, the room with the old Jaguar is much bigger and has a good sound. (I'll put the car outside)

I will place a basscombo behind the bassist so he can ajust the level by himself and maybe put an extra speaker near the drummer in order to improve the 'feel' between them. (horns are loud enough :) )

There are many jazz bands in the Netherlands so I guess it's a good market, and I want the best possible sound.

Peace

Han,
I've just finished a location recording of a jazz trio(piano,upright bass,flugel horn)in the guy's living room(10m x 8m,plenty of diffusion and soft furnishings).The bass player needed to be near the(baby grand)piano,about 2m from pianists right shoulder.The horn player was about 5m away.They all played with headphones half-on.Bass was recorded using DI from SWR head (no speaker),and Rode NTK 40cm from f-hole angled toward bridge.Best upright sound I've ever got.Good even player,great sounding bass (3/4 size,no dead spots)-all these factors really help.The bleed factor really helped the overall cohesion of the mix.The big room in your picture looks great-just make sure you leave the Jag right where it is......

Good comments Dave,

I would only like to reinforce the; from left to right; placement:

Drums,short goboe(Baffle-low enough for sightlines with drummer; just to keep a bit of the direct kit out of the Bass mic), UpRightBass, Piano. All in a line left to right.
Opposite this line in a semicircle are the horns. The rythm section faces the horns.

Never was into jazz too much until I got to record a bunch, same with country. I'm an ol' '70's rocker , but I love Live music and the players are usually good in those genres

When I record jazz, I usually take somewhat of a minimalist approach...

For the bass I prefer to use a fat sounding tube mic on a stand facing the instrument. Lately, it has been a UM 57 which sounds absolutely incredible. However, often in live shows where I do most of my recording, I'll have major leakage issues with the drums. To remedy that, I may add in a little bit of a direct box (a tube one like the ADL-200 or the Demeter DI, but not too much--just articulation). When players let me do it, I've also been known to take a small diaphragm mic, wrap in foam and put under the bridge facing the fingerboard. Be aware, though, that it dampens the sound and many players don't like it.

For the drums, I'll take a high-end stereo microphone and place it in front of the kit between cymbals and toms "looking" at the snare. My favorites are: SM-69 tube, SM-23, AKG C34 and C426. Occasionally, I'll supliment with a kick drum mic. Makes for a good open drum sound.

For the piano, I'll open the lid all the way or sometimes even take it off. I like small diaphragm mics such as Schoeps at the low and high ends facing the hammers. If leakage is an issue, turn the piano so that the lid is open out away from the drums.

--Ben

Han,

I face the same problems as you. I produce and engineer (almost) all the recordings for my jazz label, Smalls Records (hi to friends of Smalls in the Netherlands). I insist (as do the cats) on recording live in one room. Controlling bleed into the bass mic is one issue that vexes me to no end.

Techniques mentioned here are good ones, the clip-ons, the SM57/whatever under the bridge. All of these are preferable to the sound of a DI to my ears, though I understand that it is sometimes a necessary evil.

Many players have taken an interest in my suggestion that they play as they would have for a 1950s radio date, imagining a single microphone in the center, and the necessity to achieve a balance at that point. When recording in stereo, one should pan the instruments to approximate their geometric relations in real space to minimize anomalies in apparent space vs. arrival time. All the other factors of bleed will work correctly most of the time if these two things achieved.

You see, the additional microphones are like de facto *early reflections* for each instrument. If you control their placement and their panning keeping true geometry in mind, then you will get the impression of a reverberant space with good early reflections. Just tune down the early reflections on the mastering reverb, and you will have a very nice room sound in the end.

The problems with the bass mic, are mainly

1) The color of the off-axis reflections
2) The pingponging from the cymbals, rims, etc. (basically the high-frequency components that are directional cues, and not so much the low-frequency components).

So the problems more specifically are:

* When the drums or cymbal hits are louder in the bass mic then they are in the drum mic(pingponging).

* When the room is so reverberant (RT60 times high) that drums wash into ever instrument mic.

If, as I said before, the band achieves a single-point balance, then the pingponging won't be so much of a problem. There are also a few things you can do in both cases, since it is a game of inches anyway:

Use mics with good rejection, as noted before. Dynamics like the RE-20 are recommended for this, and sound pretty good, though not as ethereal as an M149. The Schoeps on the piano give great rejection (esp the hypercards) and very little off-axis coloration. The U47 sounds very good off-axis, and I can put it quite near the drums for horns, etc. The M149 does not always. [Hint again, maintain geometric realism...don't try to pan the piano and drums hard L-R.]

Another thing you can do with the bass mic is to subtract from the headache frequencies that make the bleed sound most objectionable. Take out between 1kHz and 2kHz, and take out around 5200Hz. You can take out quite a bit in these bands without hurting anything, and it will darken the room bleed considerably. Turn the mic away from the drums if possible to get the full 9dB of rejection, or use a hypercard pattern (roll off accordingly). In drastic situations, you can just roll off the highs altogether! It still sounds better than a DI!

Finally, use good sound deadening material on the *walls themselves* if possible, to minimize the early reflections in the room. Putting gobos around the bassist only does a little bit. Remember that the bleed is supplying de facto early reflections. You don't really want a room that is *very live* for a reverberant sound.

Finally, you can keep the bass relatively low and then set up the mix to hit it with a Pultec on low-shelf at 300 Hz.

Good luck, and please do share your notes on the results!

Best, Luke

Thanks Luke and all. I too own a small jazz label, and studio and have a relationship with a Netherlands based label. This area of the acoustic bass is the only problem I face. I have no answers, just looking for them. The last recording I used a hypercard (only a 414) that I was certain would yield better results, only to find that the bassist, thinking he KNEW BEST, switched the pattern. So I had to use the DI, which didn't sound as bad, but I hate it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

I've had to live with results in the past of reflections and phase issues. I have fought and fought and wasted much time until I resigned myself to it. Subtractive EQ until I'm blue in the face. But what the phase does to the drums is frustrating. And then I realized that no one else could really hear what I was talking about until I pointed it out.

I haven't had success with the foam under the bridge. I've gotten rattle in some cases, others it won't fit or it alters the sound too much.

Most of my recordings are of live or studio folk or bluegrass bands. My other half plays upright bass in a bluegrass band. Even though we don't have the issue of a drum kit or horns bleeding in the mix, the bass can still be difficult to control since it bleeds into every mic in the room. (You should try putting it next to a banjo!)

What I usually do is take a line from the Fishman pickup and also place my Rode NT1 about a foot off the bass above the body facing the strings and aimed slightly down. I usually run the Fishman through a compressor to keep the sound consistant and smooth.

I attended a couple of seminars with Edgar Meyers and Todd Phillips, both national recording artists and they both use one large condenser in the configuration discussed above. They may use a pickup in conjunction with a large condenser but usually only in live situations.

I have also stuffed a dynamic under the bridge with fairly good results, but I would never record that way unless it was live and I had no other options. I have stuffed a dynamic that is run into a small bass amp and taken the line out of the amp direct to tape with pretty good results in live recordings also. I usually use a lot of compression to get the sound smooth when I have to use a stuffed mic.

Using the low frequency cut on the board for the other mics (horns, guitar, piano) helps a lot too.

Hi guys

I have a recording that sounds awsome! Last friday the band came in, it's a pretty good old style jazz band and they prefered to play in the small room. which has 'ajustable' acoustics because there are thick curtains on two sides.

I did it like RecorderMan advised me to, thanks again bro!!

Any engineer has his 'secrets' I suppose, but this is a small and very prof community and we just share anything that we think is important to know, and I like that :)

The drummer is a very good one, has an old Ludwig set and he has a good sound by himself, so I have put an ORTF pair of 451's OH's above him, a Beyer M201 'spot' mike on the snare, an AKG D12 in front of the double head kick and a pair of MD421 in ORTF in front of the drumkit, distance some 2' and 1' from the floor. An extra C3000 spotmike on the ride cymbal just for in case I need the extra 'ping'. (It's nice to have many tracks)

On trumpet a C3000 and a MD441, both to its own track.

On trombone a MD441 which is perfect for horns, because the 441 is hypercardioid, but has a very nice off axis response.

On clarinet a Neumann M149, no further explanation nessecery I hope :)

On banjo a Beyer M88 pointed at the strings and a MD421 pointed to the side of the banjo, again to two tracks.

And then comes the main problem; the upright bass. I put him beside the drums like RecorderMan said and put a 4' high gobo between them. I had the opportunity to try a number of mics in front of the bass, like M149, good sound but too much bleed and in cardioid a bit 'boomy'.
D12, little bleed, but boomy too and I don't like the off axis response.
57, not so bad at all, but not good enough.
441, nice low end, but again not what I'm looking for.
Beyer M88, very underestimated mic, almost what I seek for.

And now comes it :) a friend of mine was having a concert a week ago and he had some problems with a mic that didn't work. It was some two miles from my place, so I went home and picked up a mic for him and offered him to look at his mic.
It was a very old Beyer M260 and I told him this is not a microphone like a SM58, although it looks a bit the same. I told him this is a ribbon mic and it should be treated with great care.

When I got home the 260 worked just fine so I think he has a broken cable.

Anyway, I tried the M260 in front of the bass and wow! this is the sound I'm looking for! :D

A little bleed that sounds just fine and a very decent 'woody' sound. Don't tell this to anybody guys, I like to keep it between us :D :D :D

And the band is very happy with the 'sound' and made very nice compliments.

Next week we're gonna do some songs with the piano also, no problem, I have two PZM's on the inside of the lid.

Peace. :w:

I use a Beyer M260 on my sax as my regular mic. I also have used it on banjo and fiddle with excellent results. It's very smooth and warm sounding. The difference on sax is dramatic compared to a 57/58. I haven't thought about using it on bass but I'll give it a try as a stuffed mic the next live gig I record.

Thanks for the idea..

I have used the little DPA 4061 on several recent live jazz dates here in Chicago. I tape the cable to the bridge with duct tape so that the diaphragm is about two inches from the face of the bass. It is an omni and has great response without a muddy proximity effect. I usually combine it a little DI in the mix. I've also used the Auralex foam bass traps, the 9" thick version, as gobos. They're light weight and are 4' by 2' and will stand on their own.

Originally posted by John Larson:
I tape the cable to the bridge with duct tape so that the diaphragm is about two inches from the face of the bass.

Allow me to vent about one of my pet peeves. I would NEVER allow duct tape anywhere near any of my cables, not to mention an expensive piece of wood like a bass or a piano. Duct tape leaves a sticky residue all over whatever had been taped, and it can damage the finish on wooden instruments.

On the other hand, GAFFER'S TAPE, which looks like duct tape, but is sometimes (but not always) made of cloth, is specifically designed not to leave any glue on the taped object. You put it on, you pull it off - and nothing is left behind. (Unless you leave something taped down for a couple of months, in which case you will have a real mess.)

If you haven't done so already, everyone should do themselves a favor and throw out their duct tape (unless they have an old tailpipe that needs fixing) and use only gaffer's tape for temporary audio applications. You may need to look for it in a theatrical supply house if you can't find it in your local music store. :cool:

i, for one, believe that gaffer/gaffa tape can fix any problem, including world peace, and i challenge anyone to give me a problem that gaffa can't solve

Hey GZsound,

"What I usually do is take a line from the Fishman pickup and also place my Rode NT1 about a foot off the bass above the body facing the strings and aimed slightly down. I usually run the Fishman through a compressor to keep the sound consistant and smooth."

Fishman makes a preamp called the Pro-EQ Platinum. Presonus makes the Acousti-Q. These will help shape the DI sound from the bass and help cushion the blend of the bass and mic.
To everyone:
This is great! I'm reading a lot of great ideas. Thanks.

Roland Guerin

Bump

It's near two years ago and this is one of the best threads that happened to me.

I was having some discussion with a guy on another recording forum, who's about to record a big band. So I linked him to this thread.

In the mean time I've recorded quite a number of old style jazz bands with great success and a big band in the big room where the car is resting from old age. :D

The bigband recording was a joy and a great succes. Awesome sound and many compliments.

I am recording for more than 20 years now, but I have learned most since I have an internet connection, thanks to forums like this one.

I want to thank you all once again for sharing your knowledge.

I wish you all a very happy Christmas time and a peaceful 2004.

Best, Han :p: