i would imagine the designer of the room would have something to say about it.

Years ago, attending an AES show was a way to audition monitors and audio gear, but not many manufacturers exhibit lately.
You definitely need to compare monitors to make a decision. Beware: if you hear the Barefoot MiniMain 12's you will be spoiled.
Chuck Levin's sells Barefoots near you:
Washington Music Center
11151 Veirs Mill Road, Wheaton, MD 20902, United States
(301) 946-8808
ChuckLevins.com">salesChuckLevins.com

Kurt Foster, post: 445994, member: 7836 wrote: i would imagine the designer of the room would have something to say about it.

Good suggestion Kurt. You are very right. Our very own Rod G worked with what I had started 8 years ago for design and asked me at the time what I was thinking about for speakers.
At that point I was thinking about midfields in the range of the Focal Twins, Genelecs, JBL's and the like, but couldn't be more specific then due to my lack of experience and knowledge base.

I'm not so sure I'm that much further along at this time but I'm a work in progress, just ask my wifey...but that's another story! I had thought about giving Rod a jingle and didn't want to bother him over the Holidays. I will definitely connect with him about this as well. He probably would also have some thoughts about shops/rooms in the CT area. I even thought about trying to connect with Ethan W. down there but I wanted to cast a broad net here first. I'm guessing he and Rod are both pretty busy guys these days and I want to wait until after the holidays.

In a way I'm jumping the gun because my funds have to keep channeling (bleeding!) into construction materials and it's likely my gear lust right now. At the same time it could be a fun and informative adventure and help me see I'm making progress. I've been at the HVAC for about 3 years now and it's nearing completion once I finish insulating another 1k miles of ductwork and finish electrical hookups! I get feeling pretty isolated come winter (we already have 3' of snow on the ground) and this could make a good short getaway before spring to keep my spirits up. I hope I don't sound ungrateful because I'm damn lucky to be this far along and even able to do this at all, with the generous help of others here, both present and past.

Thanks Kurt and have a great holiday season!

whowhat, post: 445995, member: 50266 wrote: Years ago, attending an AES show was a way to audition monitors and audio gear, but not many manufacturers exhibit lately.
You definitely need to compare monitors to make a decision. Beware: if you hear the Barefoot MiniMain 12's you will be spoiled.
Chuck Levin's sells Barefoots near you:
Washington Music Center
11151 Veirs Mill Road, Wheaton, MD 20902, United States
(301) 946-8808
ChuckLevins.com">salesChuckLevins.com

Thanks WW. I've often thought of pulling the trigger on a show but haven't been able to quite justify that yet. I think maybe I worry about my gearlust and my lack of self-control! Besides, I want to be able to compare speakers in as pure a comparison environment as possible and avoid psychological factors as well. I'm hoping to keep my search a little closer to home. That said, my son lives in VA so a road trip that far might be a possibility, but I'm not so sure I could talk my better half into it or get that much time and expense away next year.

Thanks for the heads up on the Barefoots!LOL! The 12's are way way out of my ballpark but I'll bet I'm gonna take a listen!
Happy holidays!

I don't know any places in your area. Thing is, the best place to listen to monitors is in your own room.
A monitor set could be perfect in a place and not so in another.
It might be a good idea to research a supplier who allow try before you buy or with a good return policy.
Just saying ;)

pcrecord, post: 445998, member: 46460 wrote: I don't know any places in your area. Thing is, the best place to listen to monitors is in your own room.
A monitor set could be perfect in a place and not so in another.
It might be a good idea to research a supplier who allow try before you buy or with a good return policy.
Just saying ;)

I hear ya loud and clear PC! I see my final decisions being done that way once my control room construction is completed. That could be a while so I thought I might start narrowing my search before then and have some fun on the way.
Thanks so much for chiming in and have a great holiday season!

By the way, we have gone to Old Quebec City and it was only a 5 hour drive from here. Perhaps you know of a good listening source or 2 around your neck of the woods? I know Quebec is a big province and I don't know how close to Old Quebec City you are.
Thanks again!

vibrations1951, post: 446001, member: 34341 wrote: By the way, we have gone to Old Quebec City and it was only a 5 hour drive from here. Perhaps you know of a good listening source or 2 around your neck of the woods?

The only place that might have a good listening environement is studio economik in montreal.
You may want to send them an email first ; http://www.economik.com/

Other than that stores rarely have good listening environement. That's why I suggested doing it in your own room.. ;)

pcrecord, post: 446002, member: 46460 wrote: The only place that might have a good listening environement is studio economik in montreal.
You may want to send them an email first ; http://www.economik.com/

Other than that stores rarely have good listening environement. That's why I suggested doing it in your own room.. ;)

Yes, I fear many shops can have unseen/unknown/known anomalies or characteristics for good fair comparisons. That's one big reason why I'm asking folks here on a forum I greatly respect and trust. I don't want to waste my time, efforts and money.
Studio Economik looks like the kind of place I had in mind judging from their web site. Thanks for the suggestion! This is the kind of feedback I'm mostly looking for. I intend to keep collecting all the suggestions I can, map out options for a road trip and then start contacting places.

Your advice is spot on and I totally agree with you that my final choices will have to be auditioned in my room. At the same time I feel I have to start somewhere trying out my ears and learning my preferences in real life rather than other's experiences, magazine reviews and company specs. Not to say that they may not be valid, but as you say, I won't really know until I put them through the paces in my room.
Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help out...it's a good start for me!

vibrations1951, post: 445993, member: 34341 wrote: I'm looking for a shop where I can listen to and compare units like the ATC SCM25a, Focal SM9, Barefoot MM27, Quested V3110, Genelec 8250, jbl lsr6328,... well, I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Of that list I have only heard the 6328's (6328p if that matters) I didn't own them, but I got to listen to them with material I know very well, Sheffield Labs, Dire Straits, Focal's cd's etc. Elite level recorded material that I have listened to hundreds of times on every kind of high end system you can imagine.

I wasn't a fan for that amount of money. The woofer is very well done. Very, very good. Not a lot of low end extension, you would definitely need a sub to get the full experience, but the room was also fairly small, probably 9' x 12' -ish. The tweeter is a little fatiguing after a while, imo. The tweeter is larger than it looks, it's a full 1". The crossover design is unusual. I sort of understand why they did it, but I don't understand why they just didn't go full 8th and eliminate any phase issues bc the 1.7 kHz crossover point is a pretty important part of the spectrum. But I wasn't there when they designed them, perhaps it's related to the room correction software? Or perhaps 6th acoustic is enough drop that any phase issues aren't heard? They certainly don't sound like they have phase issues. My only complaint with their sound is that the tweeter seems a little loud after a while. I found myself really enjoying the woofer, and after a while, the tweeter seemed to be crowding it out. It's slight...but it shouldn't happen at all for that money imo.

I did not mess with levels or room correction etc, they were setup and the guy was kind enough to let me listen for a while. I don't even know if there are level switches on the back...E.g. Perhaps the tweeter could be turned down 1-2db? If they could, I would like to hear them again.

But the other thing that kind of ruins it for me is that 80% of what they are saying here is just gross marketing garbage or absolute nonsense. I can't help but roll my eyes.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/lsr6300-series/lsr6328p#Features

Like I said, those are the only ones on that list I've heard. I don't get to hear that level $$ monitor often, but I wasn't impressed....not for $2500 a pair or whatever he paid. So personally, I would remove those from the list...but whatever makes you mix better. I didn't find them to be anything special.

If you do listen to any of these you have (including the JBL's) I'm sure everyone here would be curious of your impressions. I have worked with ATC drivers before, (the 75, 150, and 150s http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf ) imo, it's one of the best drivers you will ever hear, bar none. The 150s is #1 of all time for me. If it's the same ATC, that monitor would be very high on my list, very high indeed.

Edit - It is the same ATC...you will definitely want to hear that if it's in your budget and not too hard to find.

Btw, I live in Lowell MA area, about 25 minutes from 95. If you venture down to MA or NH, etc to audition any of these and you want some company, I'd love to hear more of this level gear. It's not affordable for me, so I've never actively looked for them. I just stumble upon people who have some nice stuff from time to time. But I'd love to hear any in that list. I live right on the MA/NH border, I could just meet you somewhere.

But it sounds like you are way up there, like past Bangor even. So, if it works out, great. If not, I'll be ok lol. You will want to hear the ATC's if you can, just so you can hear that legendary midrange. It's memorable.

Brother Junk, post: 446006, member: 49944 wrote: Of that list I have only heard the 6328's (6328p if that matters) I didn't own them, but I got to listen to them with material I know very well, Sheffield Labs, Dire Straits, Focal's cd's etc. Elite level recorded material that I have listened to hundreds of times on every kind of high end system you can imagine.

I wasn't a fan for that amount of money. The woofer is very well done. Very, very good. Not a lot of low end extension, you would definitely need a sub to get the full experience, but the room was also fairly small, probably 9' x 12' -ish. The tweeter is a little fatiguing after a while, imo. The tweeter is larger than it looks, it's a full 1". The crossover design is unusual. I sort of understand why they did it, but I don't understand why they just didn't go full 8th and eliminate any phase issues bc the 1.7 kHz crossover point is a pretty important part of the spectrum. But I wasn't there when they designed them, perhaps it's related to the room correction software? Or perhaps 6th acoustic is enough drop that any phase issues aren't heard? They certainly don't sound like they have phase issues. My only complaint with their sound is that the tweeter seems a little loud after a while. I found myself really enjoying the woofer, and after a while, the tweeter seemed to be crowding it out. It's slight...but it shouldn't happen at all for that money imo.

I did not mess with levels or room correction etc, they were setup and the guy was kind enough to let me listen for a while. I don't even know if there are level switches on the back...E.g. Perhaps the tweeter could be turned down 1-2db? If they could, I would like to hear them again.

But the other thing that kind of ruins it for me is that 80% of what they are saying here is just gross marketing garbage or absolute nonsense. I can't help but roll my eyes.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/lsr6300-series/lsr6328p#Features

Like I said, those are the only ones on that list I've heard. I don't get to hear that level $$ monitor often, but I wasn't impressed....not for $2500 a pair or whatever he paid. So personally, I would remove those from the list...but whatever makes you mix better. I didn't find them to be anything special.

If you do listen to any of these you have (including the JBL's) I'm sure everyone here would be curious of your impressions. I have worked with ATC drivers before, (the 75, 150, and 150s http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf ) imo, it's one of the best drivers you will ever hear, bar none. The 150s is #1 of all time for me. If it's the same ATC, that monitor would be very high on my list, very high indeed.

Edit - It is the same ATC...you will definitely want to hear that if it's in your budget and not too hard to find.

I listed the ATC's first because that's the way I'm feeling pulled the most. The scm25's are really stretchin the budget because I was strongly considering the Focal Twins/or in that range for a while and heard them in a well designed studio but have since been cahnging my mind on a one-time monitor purchase considering my age and finances. That said, I haven't had the opportunity to hear any of the ones on my list. I appreciate your informed feedback on the JBL's. I presently have a pair of 4311's driven by Crown DC300 that have both seen better days and I always loved JBL's for live sound as well, but of course this is a whole different deal.

Oh, I think I should have mentioned earlier in my post that my CR is a corner design I grabbed from John Sayer's site years ago. I would do differently today but fortunately Rod G. worked with it to give me a solution that should be fine. Basically it will have a massive bass trap at the back (about 35% of the room volume). Ceilings heights go from 8'4" front wall to 11' 3" back wall at a distance of 24' front to back. The front wall is 13'4" wide and the walls splay out to about 17'+ at about the 38% listening position at the console area from the front wall. So it's a medium to small room with about 3200 cubic feet shell as near as I can figure. I'm looking at midfield monitor placement.

Since you are not that far from me, relatively speaking, do you know of a shop with a reputable room to audition the ATC's, Barefoots, and others on my list in your area or close by? I'm especially curious about the bottom end on the ATC scm24's compared to others because I really don't want to face the challenges or expense of a sub if I can avoid it. I'm more concerned about accuracy and ease of producing mixes that translate well over impressing clients, though I think I understand the benefits of that as well.

Thanks so much Brother!
As I said, if you know of any good audition spaces around I'd really appreciate a heads up.

Brother Junk, post: 446007, member: 49944 wrote: Btw, I live in Lowell MA area, about 25 minutes from 95. If you venture down to MA or NH, etc to audition any of these and you want some company, I'd love to hear more of this level gear. It's not affordable for me, so I've never actively looked for them. I just stumble upon people who have some nice stuff from time to time. But I'd love to hear any in that list. I live right on the MA/NH border, I could just meet you somewhere.

But it sounds like you are way up there, like past Bangor even. So, if it works out, great. If not, I'll be ok lol. You will want to hear the ATC's if you can, just so you can hear that legendary midrange. It's memorable.

Opps! i was typing to you when you sent this. I'd love to connect if I head that way neighbor! Actually I'm 2hrs north of Bangor but you are only about 5hrs away! We get used to travel living up here! maybe we can hook up and check some shops from there if you know some??

vibrations1951, post: 446008, member: 34341 wrote: and I always loved JBL's for live sound as well,

As have I! When I was actively dj-ing, they were my main monitors (live sound I mean) I even bought the LSR 308's (?) or I believe that's the number, or 328 maybe for my studio. They are fairly new, about $500 a pair. Similar look, inferior drivers. I returned them within the week I bought them. I got the Yamaha HS8's because, I have a good amount of listening experience for my age. Not like many on here, who are superhuman in experience level, but I have a lot, and the HS8's were the only thing in my price range that I heard as unbiased. Take that fwiw, you don't know me [or my ears] from Adam. The problem with the 6328p's was not the driver selection, it's genuinely the spectrum that the woofer starts to become "less than amazing" and the tweeter picks up, but is also "less than amazing." Imaging is great, I don't notice any "horn" type sound, it's simply that (in my hack assessment) they chose a tweeter that isn't as capable, in the range they are using it. And at first, you don't notice it. After say, 9 tracks, I started to notice a tone to the treble that I wasn't a fan of. Once I noticed it, it was all I could hear. But, I'm also not a fan of Rokits, and a lot of people love those...so this is all just a stranger's opinion.

vibrations1951, post: 446008, member: 34341 wrote: I listed the ATC's first because that's the way I'm feeling pulled the most.

And I feel you should. I had no idea the 75, 150,150s were monitor drivers, until today anyway. I used them for competition car audio installations, as did many other people. That midrange is regarded by many, myself included, to be the best of all time. That's an incredible benchmark to reach from the people who build audio systems with drivers instead of purchasing an already designed kit. If I were creating a 3-way design, there is not a doubt in my mind the 150s is the midrange to use. No hesitation...it is mindblowingly good. If there is something better, I have not heard it.

vibrations1951, post: 446008, member: 34341 wrote: the Focal Twins/or in that range for a while and heard them in a well designed studio but have since been cahnging my mind on a one-time monitor purchase considering my age and finances.

I understand. I haven't looked at those Focals, I may have used those drivers as well, I used a lot of Focal's drivers. I greatly respect their drivers. They genuinely try to be exceptional in their price range, and they usually are. Once you get to the upper tier stuff, it's been my experience that it's exceptional, so long as I can design my own x-over. My only issue with them is that I find their designs (and this is coming from their car or home audio stuff) to be treble heavy. Some of the best drivers I've ever used have been Focal, but I redesigned the x-over. I have not heard a Focal set/design that I thought was right. But their monitors are probably a whole different deal. I would definitely be excited to hear their monitors bc they genuinely care. It's a good company.

vibrations1951, post: 446008, member: 34341 wrote: As I said, if you know of any good audition spaces around I'd really appreciate a heads up.

If I knew, I'd tell you ever place in NE. I'm a hack "producer?" that knows about speaker design, and competition car audio. It's rare that I run into these situations (part of why I was volunteering to go w/you) I'm sure a phone call to ATC and they could tell you. Please don't let my opinion of their midrange driver persuade you into something you don't feel right about. The driver itself....amazing is an understatement, and I'm not kidding. It's that good. But the design of the overall monitor may not be to your liking. What I'm saying, is that the 150s, when used right, is almost unbeatable. I've not heard those monitors, to know whether or not they paired it well. But any monitor, using that driver, would be worth checking out. Especially if you don't have to worry about mounting it! (it's a pain in the neck to mount in small spaces)

vibrations1951, post: 446009, member: 34341 wrote: Opps! i was typing to you when you sent this. I'd love to connect if I head that way neighbor! Actually I'm 2hrs north of Bangor but you are only about 5hrs away! We get used to travel living up here! maybe we can hook up and check some shops from there if you know some??

Yeah, I wish I did buddy, but I don't. But if you find a place to listen, in which you venture south...I'm willing to venture north and meet up. I'd love to hear some of these, just for the fun of it.

Brother Junk, post: 446010, member: 49944 wrote: I got the Yamaha HS8's because, I have a good amount of listening experience for my age.

A while back i got the HS5's and got used to the missing bottom, but i've wanted to upgrade to the 8's. I've got some pretty poor temporary recording and mixing spaces but a work in process...really hard to make this work for translating but I get by. I still have the HS5's along with a set of aurotone cubes as well as the 4311's. My recording and mixing experience is extremely limited but I intend to follow my passion into retirement. I've mostly been a guitar and sound reinforcement guy since early teens and picked up what i could along the way. For the last 10 years I've been getting more serious about studying and practicing recording and mixing as my final "career".

Brother Junk, post: 446010, member: 49944 wrote: If I knew, I'd tell you ever place in NE. I'm a hack "producer?" that knows about speaker design, and competition car audio. It's rare that I run into these situations (part of why I was volunteering to go w/you)

You sound like a well experienced and knowledgeable "hack" to me. I value your opinions about speakers and like what you have to say about the ATC drivers. What I've read so far supports your take on them and the company.

So far I've only identified 2 viable resources for auditioning most of my choices listed: Studio Economik in Quebec (Thanks to Marco!) and Alto Music in Brooklyn NY). There is also
Professional Audio Design in Pembroke MA that may be able to help out as well. They deal Ausburgers but they are way above my pay grade. It would be fun to meet up and research together if things work out that way.

I look forward to hearing from others here and elsewhere. I will definitely try to do my best to share what I find on this venture. I can only relate what these old ears tell me FWIW!
Thanks again and I'll keep ya posted.

vibrations1951, post: 446013, member: 34341 wrote: You sound like a well experienced and knowledgeable "hack" to me

I appreciate the sentiment, but the driver/speaker knowledge comes from someplace else. I AM, a hack producer, if you want to even call it that. I've been in studio's while a real producer is at work, and we are doing essentially the same thing. It's just that the real deal producer can do, in 3 hours, what takes me 3 weeks. For me it's sort of between a side gig and a hobby. It's much more than a hobby, but I only make very small amounts of money off of it from time to time, which goes right back into the studio... but it's not much more than that. I'm here to learn from these production giants, just because I enjoy the field.

The stuff I'm saying that sounds "knowledgeable" comes from building speakers and competition SQ cars. I have a fair amount of knowledge about speakers, speaker design, x-overs etc. On that front, I am not humble. I'm good at it, and I know it. It may be why I love auditioning stuff so much.

But on the production front...and the stuff that is often talked about on this forum, I'm just a booger in these giant's noses.

So give my opinion on speakers/monitors a little weight. But also heavily weigh the forum people's ears. And on any other subject, defer totally to them lol.

Pembroke is I believe 1-1.5 hours from me. If you head down there, I'd love to meet you there.

Brother Junk, post: 446022, member: 49944 wrote: I'm just a booger in these giant's noses

Ha!LMAO! I certainly can identify with that when it comes to my experience in sound engineering!

Brother Junk, post: 446022, member: 49944 wrote: heavily weigh the forum people's ears. And on any other subject, defer totally to them lol.

Couldn't agree more.

Brother Junk, post: 446022, member: 49944 wrote: Pembroke is I believe 1-1.5 hours from me. If you head down there, I'd love to meet you there.

I'm going to have to contact them to see what they can offer.
In my searches I found out that 2 studios at Berklee have the ATC 25's and Barefoot mm27's in the same room. They seem to use the ATC scm25a's in quite a few of their studio's. Could be a lot of reasons for this I guess. Anyway, I'm wondering the odds of getting in there for a listen might be?!! Could be a whoot!

Found another possibility:DSPdoctor, LLC, Quincy, Massachusetts
Later1

vibrations1951, post: 446024, member: 34341 wrote: that 2 studios at Berklee have the ATC 25's and Barefoot mm27's in the same room.

Imo, that would be the most interesting comparison. I wish there could be some of the Adam stuff too, reason being, I've used some of the drivers they use. But I'd love to hear any of them.

vibrations1951, post: 446024, member: 34341 wrote: They seem to use the ATC scm25a's in quite a few of their studio's.

I'm not surprised. Like I said, if there is a better driver than the 150s, I haven't heard it. Even the drivers that come in 2nd and 3rd (in my opinion)...really high end stuff, and just brilliant drivers....the 150s still walks it. The only thing that is a surprise is that I had no idea ATC made monitors, and that the 150s etc is a monitor driver. I

vibrations1951, post: 446024, member: 34341 wrote: Found another possibility:DSPdoctor, LLC, Quincy, Massachusetts

That's about the same distance away. So, I'd gladly meet there as well.

Brother Junk, post: 446027, member: 49944 wrote: I wish there could be some of the Adam stuff too, reason being, I've used some of the drivers they use.

I hope this isn't against forum rules Chris????sorry if so but anyway. Here is a link to another forum discussion that is quite old but interesting and mentions Adam in this range of monitors;
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/479380-adam-s3xh-atc-smc25a-k-h-barefoot-best.html

Brother Junk, post: 446027, member: 49944 wrote: The only thing that is a surprise is that I had no idea ATC made monitors, and that the 150s etc is a monitor driver.

I'm not sure I understand if the scm25a's have the same drivers you speak about but I think so from what I've read. It's a bit confusing to me from some contradictory stuff I've been reading. Probably my lack of understanding. can you help me understand if you know?

Brother Junk, post: 446027, member: 49944 wrote: So, I'd gladly meet there as well.

Looks like things may be shaping up for a trip to the Boston area so far. Even though I think my wife is leaning towards Montreal! Time will tell. I think I cold talk her into a train ride from Portland to Boston and perhaps hook up with you there. I would love to have you along for another set of ears and to pick your brain. I'm in hopes that others here and elsewhere can help narrow down some locations.

She and I may not be able to do this until March sometime but ya never know...I'm getting pumped! She doesn't share the interest but wouldn't want to pass up a get-away-trip! Depends upon what I find, where, finances and time off. We have been invited by relatives to visit in FL mid February for a week, so it might be tricky to pull this off before that. Have to see....

vibrations1951, post: 446033, member: 34341 wrote: I'm not sure I understand if the scm25a's have the same drivers you speak about but I think so from what I've read. It's a bit confusing to me from some contradictory stuff I've been reading. Probably my lack of understanding. can you help me understand if you know?

Yes, it's their bullet style midrange. The model number isn't very important, between the 150 and 150s are just different volume drivers. It's easier to pair one or the other with another driver. The 75 is different, but it is still an amazing driver. It's just a lil different, but still very impressive. Based on the pricing structure, and a quick look at the other drivers in the design, it's likely one of the 150's.

It's the most incredible midrange you will ever hear. And if you don't agree, you will be the first. Imagine....just, "heavenly-good".... and then kick it up several notches......no, no, a couple more notches. There you go.

I'm obviously being a bit silly here, but it's genuinely hard to find the words for how good it is. It's shockingly good. "You didn't know something could be that good"....that kind of thing.

But I've heard that driver till my ears shut off (paired with the Raven R1's, or Aurum Cantus GS3's) Every time is a joy, but it's not a "first experience" anymore for me. I'd love to see how they completed the design. But I'd most love to hear it next to the Barefoots...A/B them, ya know? Bc the BF get high praise, but now that I know that this ATC driver is used in a monitor design...man, if there is something that can beat it, I want to hear it, because, I just don't see how it's possible.

That is the kind of endorsement I read from what seems to be an overwhelming number of folks on forums etc. What seems to be the largest area of debate between the ATC, and the Barefoot I'm considering is the bass response. There seems to be little argument of the mids being great on both with a slight preference towards the ATC. The crossover points on the ATC seem to be a big plus. For me, it may come down to a sub for the ATC to check things out and impress clients, but I like the idea of hearing bass tight and well defined for mixing as long as translation down to the low 30's works out. Cost wise it could be about the same between the 2 but with the Barefoots there wouldn't be the flexibility of dialing it in to taste and situation as much.

I may prefer the highs of one over the other because I tend to have particular sensitivities that would be hard for me to describe. The "horniness" to me, for lack of a better term, is something I don't like, others are so "brittle" or "thin" or just plain irritating. I heard the Focal Twins once in a well designed CR and was impressed with the mid range for mixing, less so with the bottom for listening not mixing, and the highs just left something missing for me, regardless of spl. I just find that even from 1k ( a particular sensitive area for me) up, I have holes and oversensitive areas that cloud my perceptions and judgment.

I do have old worn ears and anything beyond 8K usually requires me to boost to 90db or above, way beyond my norm of 68-85db in my present terrible listening environment. I certainly want to have accurate representation and easier translation yet the sound has to work for my ears in my space of course. Because my exposure to really good speakers in relatively flat rooms is so extremely limited, I'm very excited for this venture. I think I like evenness, silky saturation with openness and clarity without coloration or undo pressure...I also think that may not make sense at all to anyone but me! It's just that the harshness of so much out there today is bothersome, irritating and tiring to me. I aspire more to produce stuff more like the sounds of Steely Dan or Dark Side of the Moon kinds of qualities. Anyway.......onward and upward!

vibrations1951, post: 446046, member: 34341 wrote: I heard the Focal Twins once in a well designed CR and was impressed with the mid range for mixing, less so with the bottom for listening not mixing, and the highs just left something missing for me, regardless of spl.

Focal makes some of the best drivers I've used. But never...not one time has the provided crossover worked (and sounded "right") They just tend to be treble heavy to my ears. But I have never heard their monitor designs. But, Focal makes a 13" sub that is ridiculous money, but it sure is nice.

Btw, the ATC monitor you are talking about has the 150 in it. I don't even see the 75 available anymore, which is great, as it was the lower end. The 150 is just so good. But who knows, the rest of the design may be garbage.

vibrations1951, post: 446046, member: 34341 wrote: That is the kind of endorsement I read from what seems to be an overwhelming number of folks on forums etc.

Can you tell me what forums? The places you could read about people's experience with the ATC driver, are Elitecaraudio.com and Carsound.com (or whatever Richard Clark's site is) but since there is just no money in competition car audio anymore, I believe both of those sites are no longer active. It's a damn shame, bc Richard Clark is a genius. And Elite Car Audio...those were the only people who were doing ...well, elite car audio. Putting $3k ribbons in cars, the ATC's, and even stuff that was much more money.

vibrations1951, post: 446046, member: 34341 wrote: What seems to be the largest area of debate between the ATC, and the Barefoot I'm considering is the bass response. There seems to be little argument of the mids being great on both with a slight preference towards the ATC.

Yeah...I can only speak to the driver that is in that ATC25 (or whatever the monitor is called) I have never heard the monitor itself. I never even heard of it. The barefoots I have read about and want to see if the bass is as good as people say.

vibrations1951, post: 446046, member: 34341 wrote: For me, it may come down to a sub for the ATC to check things out and impress clients, but I like the idea of hearing bass tight and well defined for mixing as long as translation down to the low 30's works out. Cost wise it could be about the same between the 2 but with the Barefoots there wouldn't be the flexibility of dialing it in to taste and situation as much.

I found the page for the monitor (you've probably already seen it). http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm25a-pro/

So, I'm not sure what you mean by dialing it in for the situation? Do you mean that you think the ATC's won't have enough bass, so you can add the sub per situation? A rock song may not need it but a different one might? We'll have to see I guess, but I don't see any customizable stuff on the back panel of the ATC's.

The BF's appear to use the scanspeak ring revelators, or at least a copy of that design. I've used that driver a lot as well, and imo, you can do much better for cheaper. Hiquphon OWii's are head and shoulders better. (They are also used in a monitor but I can't remember whose...it's a weird name) But it's definitely a nice driver. My suspicions, from looking at the two, is that, if the ATC might "own" much of the range, and the BF's look pretty loud and dynamic. Although 109spl from the ATC's is a lot. My car only did 120 and it was loud as hell! I wouldn't count any of them out....I insist that the 150 and 150s is an unbeatable midrange. But if the rest of the design is bad, it won't help. So, anything else on your list may appeal to you better. I'm not saying that monitor is the best, I've never heard it, I'm just saying one of the driver's in it, is the best. Second place is not even close t it.

I also like that on ATC's page, it's genuine, actual, tech talk. Not marketing nonsense intended to fool people with easy pockets. I'm def. biased towards them, but if I hear something better, it's ATC's loss.

vibrations1951, post: 446046, member: 34341 wrote: I aspire more to produce stuff more like the sounds of Steely Dan or Dark Side of the Moon kinds of qualities. Anyway.......onward and upward!

I know DSOTM like the back of my hand. I love that album.

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: They just tend to be treble heavy to my ears.

My impression on the Twins as well. Thanks for following up on the driver...good news.

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: Can you tell me what forums?

Geraslutz and here mostly( I queried one verses another kind of searches) and some others I stumbled upon in searches but don't remember..CRS syndrome!

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: I found the page for the monitor (you've probably already seen it).

Yup! Been there, done that....

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: So, I'm not sure what you mean by dialing it in for the situation? Do you mean that you think the ATC's won't have enough bass, so you can add the sub per situation?

I've gotten used to not mixing with a sub and I like it. I just think that having it for brief checks while mixing, different styles that might require it during more of the mixing (important content below 40HZ) and to wow clts. so they don't have to use their imaginations until final mixes and feel better about what they are tracking. I think I could come up with an ATC plus auxilliary quality sub for less than the Barefoots W/O a sub but I haven't checked this out and may be blowing out my a$%hole?

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: scanspeak ring revelators

Yikes man, way over my head. What does that mean?

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: My suspicions, from looking at the two, is that, if the ATC might "own" much of the range, and the BF's look pretty loud and dynamic. Although 109spl from the ATC's is a lot. My car only did 120 and it was loud as hell!

I can't really say about SPL's in my space but clean 109 looks plenty high to me! Of course there are clts who like it loud....I'm personally way over that! I don't let our little band get over 90-100db at 6' away from the mains in a small to medium room! I must be getting older....... but I like to think wiser.

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: I also like that on ATC's page, it's genuine, actual, tech talk.

Ditto, even with the limits to my knowledge, so many manufacturers provide useless nonsense, even for me.

Brother Junk, post: 446049, member: 49944 wrote: I know DSOTM like the back of my hand. I love that album.

I look forward to bringing reference tracks like these to audition.
So far I've spoken with the DOC in Quincy and they are going to see what they can do to get what we want and set them up for AB'ing in their studio "down the road". I've emailed a professor at Burklee because I'm not getting any phone responses. Rod had a couple of suggested studio possibilities he work on in the NYC area that run the ATC's but i'd rather do the Boston area if I could....closer to home ='s
less travel time and money. Besides that, I think it could be a gas to have you along if that can work.

vibrations1951, post: 446051, member: 34341 wrote: Yikes man, way over my head. What does that mean?

Sorry....it's simply the driver that is in the BF's. I never bought drivers in sets. I buy raw drivers to build my own design. Bc i'm not mounting them in a rectangular box. I'm tearing apart a car and welding mounts and fiberglassing enclosures. Speakers, I also just did my own designs. So when I look at a lot of these monitors etc that you guys look at, I don't see a "monitor." I see a wooden box with an amp mounted to it, and usually some drivers that I recognize. Look familiar? (the grill has simply been removed) http://barefootsound.com/micromain27/
and
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-r3004/6020-10-1-tweeter-soft-dome-ring-radiator/

It's a good driver. Excellent. One of the best. All I'm saying is the Hiquphons out-do it, in every way, at quite a lower price tag. Not just in my opinion, but everyone I know who has heard the two. The hiq's are amazing. http://www.hiquphon.dk/page5.html Anyone who asks me, I tell them to skip the ring rev/illum, and get the OW2's. It's simply a superior sounding driver. In fact, if building your own design, I would tell the person they are a fool to get the scanspeak driver over the OW2.

It's not important really, what's important is the entire design. I'm doing a driver to driver comparison just bc I'm used to it. You will be comparing monitor designs, not individual drivers. Just let me talk a little shop lol.

That other driver in the BF appears to be a Scanspeak Illuminator, which I have not heard. But that looks like one of the Illum's. I have used the Revelators extensively, which preceeded the illuminators. They are very similar by all accounts, and they are kick-ass woofers. Very nice bass. Kind of dark, full, punchy, addictive decay..it's just all there. Everything you can imagine loving about bass? That driver gives it to you in spades. The midrange is not as clear as say the ATC 150, or the Seas Excel Lotus...their dark characteristic carries through the midrange a bit. It's extremely enjoyable to listen to, but not what I would call "unbiased" which is what you want in a monitor. The illums are very similar, but less dark (from people who have heard them that I trust). Bc it's a 3 or more way design, they can cut them off early, and get that crazy bass, w/out the dark midrange. If I was designing a 3-way monitor, that's the bass driver I would personally use. It's another one of those memorable drivers. You won't ever forget it.

A lot of people become addicted to the bass output of the BF's from what I've read. Looking at the drivers now, I understand why. Those drivers are just incredible on the bottom end. "Addictive" is the perfect word. And since it's not a 2-way, they can cut that bass driver off low enough that it doesn't hurt the midrange clarity. It's exactly what I would do, in my ideal design. Exactly.

I haven't looked at a few of the other monitors on your list, but the Adams use drivers I've used, and I'm sure most of the other ones on your list have at least some drivers that I've seen/heard/used parts from too.

109 db for music is plenty loud. My competition van I topped out at 114 I think? And that's very loud for music.

NY would be too far for me. Maybe Connecticut depending on how far, MA, NH, ME though are all good for me. Please don't work it around me. I'd love to be there, and I'd love to meet you, and I would have a blast, but you gotta go where you gotta go.

P.S. This area of sound is like my sandbox, I know it backward and forward. I have tweet/mid/bass combinations and crossover points stored in my head, like some people can remember passwords. Those BF's? I haven't used that exact bass driver, but I've owned several pair that are 98% the same. They were just different T/S parameters for different box applications. E.g One that was designed to be ported, vs. sealed. Treated paper vs non, etc. All they have truly changed is the magnet, frame, and paper structure...minutely at that. Aurally, it's practically the same driver. It's just to have a new product, for a new year.

That Scanspeak ring tweeter, I think I've owned or been lent, every issue of it, since it came out a loooonnnggggg time ago. Every time there is a new one, I not only get to hear it....I get to test it. I can play with it as long as I want. So, those BF designs,...it's almost like, "been there, done that." Not meaning that I don't think they are amazing....meaning, I know what those drivers sound like, almost to the point of disinterest? I know what several of those BF drivers sound like on my entire music library, and I know what you can extract from them with different x-points and slopes. I am very familiar with the drivers. If it weren't for the midrange in those BF's, I wouldn't need to check them out at all. I could tell you right now, the bass will be honest, but "dreamy" good, super full, and as "round" as you think is correct. You will want it, I can tell you right now...you will want it. That tweeter, while not THE best of all time....it's almost like we are comparing a Nascar to another Nascar....it's sort of the people behind the wheel that make the difference. It's a phenomenal driver. Like I said, one of the best of all time. I would put about 5 tweeters in front of it, but the monitor design has to remain affordable. My point is, while I'm not saying that the ring tweeter in the BF's, or their woofer, are "THE best of all time"....it's definitely one of the best you will ever hear. I can promise you that. The reason I didn't run Scan's in my personal vehicle was because the Hiq's are just better than the rings imo, and the midrange on the paper cone Revelators is enjoyable, but doesn't feel exactly true. The bass on them is, imo, unbeatable. Their cost is completely justified when compared to other drivers. But, to be a monitor worthy design, they can only be used in a 3-way. The bass in incredible, the midrange...I can think of several better options.

But my point is, we are on....sort of a different vein here. I don't want you to give up on the JBL 6328P's just bc I found something irritating about the tweeter. They may be absolutely perfect for you. (I think they are a ripoff of the highest order) but ultimately, it's whatever you connect with. I have very good ears. I'm not ashamed to say it. It's a fact. So, pussy-footing around, as if I don't have good ears, for me...it's just disingenuous. And I'd rather be sincere and real, than be polite. I'd rather you think I'm an a-hole now and realize later that I do know what I'm talking about, than just to fake it all now.

So regardless of what I say, you should listen to every monitor you can. Try to forget any preconceived notions, and bring a notepad with you. As you listen to your test material, make quick notes as to what strikes you. It can be a totally abstract word, like, "rusty"....just write down the words that come to you. (If we can do this together, it would be fun). Try to write at least 5 words (at least) per audition, and there is no top limit.

When you do it this way, in the end, you will discover patterns that often match what your ears told you in the beginning....but it gives you a better insight. The ones that I'm drawn to, I often write, "Analytical, honest, detailed, unforgiving, brilliant, speechless." And that's what I want from anything. Even listening speakers, thats' what I want. I want them to be hard to deal with on poorly recorded material....bc, frankly, I don't listen to much of it. I want the stuff that makes the good recordings shine.

You have your own system for this. Don't let my favoritism influence you beyond what you think is a wise decision. E.g. If you think the 6328ps are the best you could ever hope for monitor, then run with it buddy. Life is short, I'm opinionated. It's downright stupid to let those two interfere with one another.

I should start a kicksarter campaign or something. I got pics of the drivers, I have world title trophies, national title trophies. I could build a dead accurate monitor system. Apparently, I've been using many of the parts all along.

Hey thanks for the responses. I like your suggestion about writing down my observations of each rig. I also like your conviction to your experience, knowledge base and opinions. I respect that and always prefer straight up if ya know what I mean. That includes my hearing preferences, I want it raw and real as possible. That way I feel I can make it anyway I like later, but I gotta know what I'm dealing with. I'm really hoping I can set up something that can include you as I would enjoy meeting you in person as well. I'll keep you updated on responses as they start to come in. I contacted a studio in the FL area where we will be staying in Feb. They run Dyn Audio Bm15s and were really open to letting me stop by when I get there so that could be cool as well.

It's been so hard finding all the elements in one place, good room, variety speakers in one place to A/B, willing to let me in, not too far away and the opportunity to have enough time with each pair to compare. I may have to get what I can where I can in a less ideal scenario, that's another reason why I like your suggestion of the note taking, as long as I develop a consistent lexicon for description no matter how subjective. I think I will also need to track things like size of room, room treatment etc. and of course, bring along reference tracks that represent a variety of genres because I will be the one of the very few studio spaces around for hundreds of miles and have a varied clientele to serve if I am going to make a go of this.

No matter what, anything at all is better than what I know right now about the choices, other than what I've read. another thing I have to consider is that my CR may not be completed for 2 years from now and a lot of new technology development can occur between now and when I can hear choices in my room. Something new may come along and change the whole game! I get that but I need to start somewhere and intend to enjoy the journey, regardless of the destination. I've been at the construction for over 8 years now and a lot has changed over that time, including my own opinions, wants and needs, often influenced by changes in technologies, so who knows?

Stay tuned!

I wouldn't worry too much about the room you listen in. It is what it is. The room isn't going to affect the sound of the monitor, more than the monitor itself. You can still get a good idea of what you are dealing with. I'd listen any place you can.

You're probably right that the overall general character or "the sound of the monitor" can still be assessed for "a good idea of what you are dealing with." On the other hand, I'm guessing you'll agree that, just like speaker cabs, rooms will certainly impart their own resonances, modes and anomalies that can affect the perceived sound of the monitor system. I've experience a lot of this just having to move my equipment so many times in my home over the last 8 years

That being said, I have found that overall, the particular sonic signature of my monitors (and other speakers) still generally carries through and even though they may each perform better in differing spaces, one can still get a feel for their overall character, for lack of a better adjective. I would have a heck of a lot better idea and more data to compare than I do right now for sure. It will all finally matter most after a shoot out in my own space, but until then, I agree that listening to anything (with good note taking) anywhere I can at this point, will prove to be very valuable......and fun!

It would be a great start and fun winter getaway. If I can talk wifey into it we may end up making a grand tour by hitting as many opportunities as possible by making a big loop down the I95 corrider to the Boston area and through to NYC and back up the more northern route from there (95, 84, 90, 290, 495, 95) back home. More time and money so we will have to see, especially considering our FL trip, tax time and winter weather. Right now we're getting hammered with snow that could be our first really big dump with a lot more winter to come. As you probably know, even "down south" where you are, it's turning out to be "an old fashion winter"!

vibrations1951, post: 446138, member: 34341 wrote: You're probably right that the overall general character or "the sound of the monitor" can still be assessed for "a good idea of what you are dealing with." On the other hand, I'm guessing you'll agree that, just like speaker cabs, rooms will certainly impart their own resonances, modes and anomalies that can affect the perceived sound of the monitor system. I've experience a lot of this just having to move my equipment so many times in my home over the last 8 years

Totally agree, but I just don't see a way around it. I would just sit as best you can to limit any first reflections. Bc, otherwise, I think you just won't be able to hear some of the monitors you want. If you are sitting in the best position, room anomalies should represent themselves as such. Meaning, if you have enough listening experience and knowledge, you should be able to tell (within reason) what is the room, and what is not. If you have doubts, certain places will let you move stuff around.

It's too bad there isn't a host of people in New England who have all these, and a studio we could meet at for like a yearly "Gear Demo Day."

vibrations1951, post: 446138, member: 34341 wrote: That being said, I have found that overall, the particular sonic signature of my monitors (and other speakers) still generally carries through and even though they may each perform better in differing spaces, one can still get a feel for their overall character, for lack of a better adjective. I would have a heck of a lot better idea and more data to compare than I do right now for sure. It will all finally matter most after a shoot out in my own space, but until then, I agree that listening to anything (with good note taking) anywhere I can at this point, will prove to be very valuable......and fun!

That's my main point. With the level of monitor you are dealing with, I think it's safe to assume it's designed pretty well. My HS8's are pretty good. Not perfect, but pretty good. I think it's safe to assume everything you will be listening to will be better than those. So, if you are listening to the BF's, and you say, ''this low end just evaporates out of the room?" It's probably the room, know what I mean? The low end on those, by all accounts, plus my personal experience with two of the drivers in the set...the low end should pound. You aren't going in there to identify the winner of the world. You are going in to see which sonic profile you like best. It's not ideal...but, if it's the only option, I'd take it.

I could tell you where the tweeter in those barefoots sounds imperfect to me, but I demo'ed it with the Dynaudio Esotar, a Focal tweet, Morel Supremo's (shite tweeter for $$$) and Hiquphons. And at this point, I can only remember the order I liked them in, Hiq's, Esotar, Scan Rings, Focal, and the Supremo's. I used the Supremo's for a bit in my own car, to see if it was truly unredeemable, because it's not cheap. But it truly is a piece of junk. Fwiw, everyone in the group ranked them the same way, except for the Esotar. Some people liked it better than the Hiquphon bc it plays lower (it's gigantic), but the order of the rest was all the same. The newer rings radiators, the cap is different. So I'm guessing they altered the response, whether dispersion or sound a bit for the monitor. So, those BF's, have all the parts in the making for an amazing monitor. The ATC, I've not heard anything but the midrange, which will make you crap your pants. Bring extra.

Back to my original idea (I'm very stream of conscious), Dynaudio were mentioned somewhere. The Dynaudio Esotar is one of the finest drivers I've ever heard. It's in my top 3 of all time best tweeters. I got to play with a lot of Dyn stuff bc a lot of the guys I worked with were sponsored by them. So, I've used a lot of Dyn mids, and bass drivers and I have to say, I think if you split them up, they can work beautifully. The 8" bass driver...it can put out volume and punch. But it takes work. The Esotar is flawless. The dyn mids I don't find that exciting. Basically, everything made by Dyn (that I have touched) isn't very exciting or dynamic, except that Esotar. The rest of Dyns drivers, while they can sound nice in the hands of a pro....I think starting off with a shy or dry driver is the wrong way to go. But to each his own. A lot of people love them. I don't recall any world champs who were running them though, at least when I was on the scene. They would run the Esotar...nothing else. I would be surprised if the Dyn monitors were much different.

vibrations1951, post: 446138, member: 34341 wrote: It would be a great start and fun winter getaway. If I can talk wifey into it we may end up making a grand tour by hitting as many opportunities as possible by making a big loop down the I95 corrider to the Boston area and through to NYC and back up the more northern route from there (95, 84, 90, 290, 495, 95) back home.

Yeah, I'm in if you figure it out (the boston area type auditions, not the vacation with you and the wife ;)

I just got back inside from shoveling. It was about 6" and then it rained and knocked it down to 4", but then it feels like you're shoveling 2' of snow! The older I get, the less I like snow!

Btw, I just finished looking at the rest of the monitors.

First off, the ATC's are used by Mark Knopfler, that says a lot to me right there. No matter what you listen to, I just don't think you will hear a better midrange. And because it's so massive (All the ATC stuff can handle major power) it covers a lot of the spectrum. So the bass and tweeter are important, but don't have to be AS stellar as the midrange.

The Focal SM9, I've used that bass driver and that Berylium tweeter. At the risk of repeating myself too many times, it's all in the design. In other words, I could build my own monitor (and someday I will, I should do a kickstarter) and I'll show these hack companies how it's done ;) but my own design, and I would pick and choose parts and design the box and crossovers. When using raw drivers like I do, we don't typically care about the mfr crossover...the only time I got one, was if buying drivers in a set was cheaper, and then I would take the parts from the crossover if they were any good and throw them in my bins. So, please keep in mind, even though I have used these drivers (these exact ones!) whoever made this monitor, has their own crossover setup. And maybe it's pretty good! You would really need to hear it. But my experience with those drivers...
The mid bass was "ok", the tweeter was awful to my ears. The mid bass will make some volume, but there is a lack of detail when compared with other drivers. However, having a radiator in the design can change things a lot, so even if it was me who was interested in new monitors, I would at least give the sm9's a listen. But if you search for reviews on that Beryllium tweeter as a standalone part, I think you'll see, a lot of people aren't fans.

Looking more at the BF's, they are SEALED! This design, imo, will be very hard to beat on the bottom end. I feel like I'm always telling people this, and I get shrugged off. "Ports are fine" etc. This is a monitor we are talking about. Sans port is a better design imo. Especially for a studio. The bass, aside from being more abundant, will be more accurate. And the crossover points in those BF's are perfect. That's right where those drivers want to be.

I can practically promise you, you will never hear a midrange like the ATC, probably ever in your life. But, if the BF's can pull off a sealed design, and knowing what some of those drivers sound like....that's going to be a hard one to beat bc it will kill the whole spectrum. And w/o port noise. A port is sometimes useful tool. But it works much like blowing air over the top of a bottle. They just design the port to produce a certain frequency. I'd rather have a transducer reproducing my frequencies than a hole in the box. Some people say, "A port works just fine." Eh...It CAN work just fine....my monitors are ported. That doesn't mean it's ideal. It can work for LOT'S of purposes, I'm simply saying it's not ideal for a monitoring system (almost any system for my taste). Would you have a robot sitting in the corner with a jug tuned to 38hz, and he just blows on the jug in perfect time....would you use that for your monitoring system? It's a crude comparison, but not terribly far off. A single (or two in their case) larger driver made to work in a sealed design is simply smarter. But I get that not everyone has room for it. My point is, for accuracy, I have never heard a ported design defeat a sealed design. The port for most of us, is a necessary evil. But if you can avoid it, 'tis the better design imo.

The Quested, I've not used any of the drivers. One of the drivers in the bigger designs looks like an ATC knockoff, which happens often enough. It doesn't mean it's bad, but it's almost never like the original. Of course, ATC doesn't own the bullet style midrange....but you will see that pretty often once a driver develops a reputation, copies emerge. Eg. I showed you that Scanspeak Ring Radiator tweeter that's used in the BF's. Here is a Peerless unit

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/vifa-xt25tg30-04-1-ring-radiator-tweeter/

The last ones you listed, the Genelacs, I can't see a blessed thing inside it. If I had to guess, that tweeter is also a Peerless unit, that has been used in a TON of designs, by anyone and everyone. It sounds good and is very easy to work with. The company sometimes takes the unit from Peerless, does their testing and says, "We want this, this, and this changed" and then they brand it and use it in their own design. That is just a guess, it could be a dozen other tweeters. The main reason I'm telling you this is so that you will understand how it works. This is a rebadged version of a Peerless tweeter from a Canton set I had. They simply added a cap to the grill.

So, a lot of these monitors, will just use off the shelf drivers, sometimes tweak it a little, but they rebadge it, and now everyone thinks this monitor has "the golden tweeter"....when really, you could just buy it for $25 from Madisound.com So, when designs hide what drivers they are using, it makes me a lil suspicious. I can look at the BF's, ATC's and others and tell you right off, that those are big money drivers in that design. The better the drivers, the less talent the designer needs to have. I don't need an anechoic chamber, when someone else has tested the driver to be flat IN an AEC. Now I know that this driver is flat from _ to _, and this one is flat from _ to _ etc. All I need to do is know what pairs well with what, and where/how to cross them.

I noticed the Genelac's use class D amps. Not sure if you knew that, or how you feel about it. That's the first class D in a full range studio application I've ever noticed, but maybe it happens all the time.

Hey Brother
I really appreciate hearing your experience with different units and it's helpful as I do more reading research. Your impressions of the drivers and tweeters in the Focal SM9's, BF and the mids in the SCM25's seems to draw a lot of consensus in the majority of what I have found. These tend to be the ones I am most interested in as well as the Adam S3X-Hl. An ATC company rep, in one read, defended the port in the scm 25 saying the Q was quite small, enough so to not matter and the port only helped the low end driver perform with clarity w/o coloring the low end, if I understood him correctly, FWIW.

Hearing will be believing. If I were to go strictly by my tastes and needs, utilizing what I can get out of reading, it would likely come down to the Barefoots......but......there is quite a price difference there between that and my second choice, the ATC scm25a. Again, by what I have found to read, the top end on the Adams and Focals might be deal breakers for me. Looking at SCM50's (go about 10Hz lower than the SCM25's) but 5k in price over the BF. Perhaps my JBL 4311's as farfields will suffice to provide lows checks and impress clts., then I would feel more comfortable with the scm25's as midfields (about a 6' away) and have the Auratones and HS5's for my nearfields. I've learned to correct for subs enough in my albeit limited mixing, to feel confident with the range and clarity of the scm25's below 100Hz.

As far as class D amps in the Gen's, I'm not convinced the technology performs well for monitors but they would be lighter and require less power, and should cost less. I am not really willing at this time to take a chance. And again, so much will depend upon liking what I hear and then how they perform in my CR (once I finish building it that is!). OH, and of course what I am willing to spend! Perhaps your kickstarter venture will be up and going by the time I'm ready and you'll have something to blow them all away!! Why not?

So we got about the same snow as you in the last storm and no big deal, except I'm getting a bit concerned about the build up on my roofs lately. None has melted or slid and the average is about 2'! I don't relish the thought of getting up there 2 stories to clean off stink pipes but the water is still draining fine so what the heck, the roof can handle it and the eaves aren't leaking into the house yet!! Livin' on the edge....

I'll let you know if the DSP Doc comes through or Berklee. If not, I'm still working on others in the MA area because it makes this all more doable and sooner. Besides, your experience and ears would be greatly appreciated!
Namaste

In the meantime kmetal . Haven't heard from or seen you in a while my friend. Hope all is well and look forward to connecting with you soon.

vibrations1951, post: 446190, member: 34341 wrote: These tend to be the ones I am most interested in as well as the Adam S3X-Hl.

I will look at it.

vibrations1951, post: 446190, member: 34341 wrote: An ATC company rep, in one read, defended the port in the scm 25 saying the Q was quite small, enough so to not matter and the port only helped the low end driver perform with clarity w/o coloring the low end, if I understood him correctly, FWIW.

That's the general "public announcement" script. What they are talking about, matters on paper. It doesn't change the fact that a port is reproducing some of those frequencies, instead of a more precise, motor driven system. It's as simple as that. It's not that a port can't work...it's just not the pinnacle, unless it's tuned very low, like 20-25.

I haven't looked at the price of any of the monitors you have mentioned. So, I have no idea of any price differences, aside from driver selection. And the BF's use, quite a few, very expensive drivers, and an overall better design imo.

It's whatever you hear my friend. If the ATC tweeter is good, I'd almost see if using a sub could complete the bottom end...just for that ATC midrange.

I can tell you up front, those BF's are gonna bump. The ATC's will get very loud, but the bass will probably be a quicker decay, less peaky, type bass. It's what you prefer. If the ATC's are $5k less than the BF's, wow, the ATC tweeter would have to really suck. You could add an amazing sub for way less.

But it's your $. If it was your money, paying for my monitors, I might choose the Bf's lol.....

I look forward to your listening experiences....please make sure to let us know.

Brother Junk, post: 446191, member: 49944 wrote: I will look at it.

If the ATC's are $5k less than the BF's, wow, the ATC tweeter would have to really suck. You could add an amazing sub for way less.

But it's your $. If it was your money, paying for my monitors, I might choose the Bf's lol.....

I look forward to your listening experiences....please make sure to let us know.

The ATC SCM25a's are around 8K and the Barefoot's are around 10K. The ATC SCM50's are around 15K. How about I buy a pair of BF's for both of us!!!!!!!!
Wish that I could!
I'll keep reporting what I can. I'm thinking that Kyle may chime in eventually about some ideas on auditioning options around Boston.
Later

vibrations1951, post: 446192, member: 34341 wrote: The ATC SCM25a's are around 8K and the Barefoot's are around 10K. The ATC SCM50's are around 15K.

So the Adams are in your price range. I've not really looked at them. I've just "noticed" a couple of them and said to myself, "I've used that tweeter."

Fwiw, (I've been doing a lot of digging) the ATC SCM25's use the 150 driver. The SCM50's use the louder, 150s. The driver sounds almost the same, one is simply much more efficient. This is part of why people like me love them so much. Depending on the design, I don't have to do anything fancy, I can just use the less efficient driver. Plus I sometimes mix 4 and 8 ohm which leads to volume issues. One thing I can tell you about the ATC's and the BF's (w/o even seeing them) is that they are both going to be heavy. Like, inexplicably heavy. The BF's are gonna weigh a ton, which from a design standpoint, I like. The fiberglass kick panels in my van were 26# each, without drivers. But every one of those drivers weighs a ton, they boxes are going to be heavy!

Well, I look forward to hearing what you think of them all. Even if I can't go to any of them. I haven't heard from Kyle in a bit, but him being so close, I'm sure he would love to come.

Brother Junk, post: 446195, member: 49944 wrote: So the Adams are in your price range. I've not really looked at them. I've just "noticed" a couple of them and said to myself, "I've used that tweeter."

I've never heard a ribbon tweeter. Can you tell me your impressions?

Brother Junk, post: 446195, member: 49944 wrote: But every one of those drivers weighs a ton, they boxes are going to be heavy!

To me, heavy usually means better overall and that is probably a bold untrue stereotype but my limited general experience....things like magnets, enclosure design. Besides, I plan on whatever I end up with, to function as a nearfiled-midrange on a stand and not worry about the weight on a meter bridge/console desk.

Brother Junk, post: 446195, member: 49944 wrote: I haven't heard from Kyle in a bit, but him being so close, I'm sure he would love to come.

Would be great if he wanted to! The more ears and experience the better for me! May have to hire a bus by the time I'm ready! Better yet, a Limo huh? OK, I do have a tendency toward grandiosity.......

As far as my price range, it's a big push for me to go 10K for a pair and I would really prefer to stay in the 7-8K range for a pair and not have to add a sub. The more I push my budget, the longer it's gonna take for me to "retire" and do this full time. As it is, I'm looking at 1 1/2-2 more years and I'm nearly 66 now. Trade offs, trade offs!

vibrations1951, post: 446197, member: 34341 wrote: I've never heard a ribbon tweeter. Can you tell me your impressions?

Imo, it's the most perfect tweeter ever invented. The design is simple. The motor is massive (I think my Aurum Cantus GS3's were 6# each?) the moving mass (the ribbon) is extremely light. It's a whole different world....one that's hard to come back from. The top end never sounded so good. Bc the motor to mass ratio is so high, it's a very "quick" sound. Transient attack is more apparent. Metal percussion sounds much more realistic. It's just better imo. In every capacity. Plus, you can run some of them down to 800 hz. That's insane.

That said, there is a difference between a real ribbon, and similar designs. I'm only talking about true ribbons.

Plus you can't truly blow them. The electrical conductor is the ribbon, if you blow it, a new ribbon is $8. It goes in in 1 minute. The driver will last forever...literally. It would be very hard to blow, they handle a lot of power. I'm just saying that no matter what the circumstance, you can have a brand new driver, for $8. I've never actually seen anyone blow a ribbon. Most driver designs...eventually, the drivers need a refresh (new drivers/recone). I've got a pair of B&W DM110's here, and Magnepans, that both sound terrible. They need a refresh. Ribbons not only sound, imo, "the best", but unless you drop it out a 3rd story window, it's unbreakable.

vibrations1951, post: 446197, member: 34341 wrote: To me, heavy usually means better overall

In this venture, it definitely does.

vibrations1951, post: 446197, member: 34341 wrote: As far as my price range, it's a big push for me to go 10K for a pair and I would really prefer to stay in the 7-8K range for a pair and not have to add a sub. The more I push my budget, the longer it's gonna take for me to "retire" and do this full time. As it is, I'm looking at 1 1/2-2 more years and I'm nearly 66 now. Trade offs, trade offs!

I hear ya. If you have to go with the ATC's because of budget, I could think of worse things in the world lol. If you are not into very bass heavy music (hip hop etc) I'm sure the ATC's will blow you away. They will definitely not have the same bottom end as the BF's. I'm really curious to hear both of them myself now.

In my dream design, I would use a Raal ribbon, the ATC 150/s, and the bottom end of those BF's. So I think it will just come down to which monitor has the "thing" you appreciate most.

Thanks for the info on the ribbon tweeter. It will be interesting to see how my ears like them or not if I can get the opportunity to hear them.

Brother Junk, post: 446201, member: 49944 wrote: So I think it will just come down to which monitor has the "thing" you appreciate most.

For sure!

vibrations1951, post: 446264, member: 34341 wrote: Thanks for the info on the ribbon tweeter. It will be interesting to see how my ears like them or not if I can get the opportunity to hear them.

You won't like them, you will love them. So long a it's a real, and normal size ribbon *#, it's like the ATC midrange....if you don't love it, you will be the first.

*By "real" ribbon, I mean this (or the same design)

http://www.parts-express.com/aurum-cantus-g1-ribbon-tweeter--276-420

And not a variation of it, like a planar, or quasi-planar, like this

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pt2c-8-planar-tweeter--275-085

By normal size, I mean anything like this or above

http://www.parts-express.com/fountek-neo-x-30-ribbon-tweeter-silver--296-715

not small like this (they try to make them smaller now to make dispersion better. Real ribbons have an inherent vertical dispersion problem)

http://www.parts-express.com/beston-rt003c-round-ribbon-tweeter--277-114

I have not heard the above "round ribbon" tweeter. It might be fantastic, I don't know. But the ribbons in the design category and size I linked above, imo, there is nothing better, and I've heard a lot of tweeters. The hiquphons and scan rings (in the BF's) and Dynaudio Esotar are the only things close that I have heard, but not in the same league as a good ribbon. It's impossible to match that motor to moving mass ratio, and the driver material works well in the range it produces. It's just a crazy good design.

Update: Wifey decided to pass on this venture. This makes it easier on my end and will mean a rework of plans. My son is a musician with some recording and sound reinforcement experience and could make me a good car mate. I'm going to make a final list of speakers I want to hear. I'll post my list and if you can make any part of the trip and have some you would like to hear,I'll add them to my list and start making some earnest phone calls to set this up. This will allow me to set this up sooner than later. I'd love to have you join us at any or all of the stops and am willing to work with your needs and schedule as much as possible. I'm still wondering if others here in the ME,NH,MA area have suggestions or would want to join. It could make for an informative, helpful and fun thread for ROG afterwards.
audiokid , Is there a way to get a list of members in our area to contact for references on listening locations? I'm wondering if this would be cool with Forum rules and would understand if not.

@Brother Junk ,
I'm hitting a lot of dead ends. This is turning out to be way more challenging than I had imagined. It seems that the industry is so bad off that inventory's are low and limited for shops and availability is mostly on a per order basis. I fully get this from a retailer's perspective having owned and run a grocery retail operation for 5 years myself. "On Time" inventory, as it was called back then. Almost no backroom stock. Too bad but i get it.......

DrDSP in Quincy, MA is trying to get the Quested's for demo but that's about it for now. I'm still weeding through New England studios to see what they are using so I can beg a chance to listen. It would be a stretch to feel comfortable asking to audition properly with time and reference tracks. I'm hoping I can shake something loose at Berklee but my hopes are not very high.

It's beginning to look like my plan would require a presently out of the question trip to NYC or CA. I'm not in a position to order from a retailer and do the shipping back and forth thing right now. Sooooo, I may look instead at finding shops and auditioning what they may have, even if the speakers are not of my choosing right now. It's real likely that I'm reaching too high and should be more conservative in my selections/price range as the studio is not even up and running and I have no real idea of it's viability. Just reachin' for the stars on a "one time" purchase. I'm probably better off just upgrading a bit for opening and see how things go from there. Reality sucks! I'll keep ya posted.

Again, if anyone reading this has any other thoughts or suggestions or feedback of any sort it sure would help my process and be welcomed!

namaste

vibrations1951, post: 446514, member: 34341 wrote: DrDSP in Quincy, MA is trying to get the Quested's for demo but that's about it for now. I'm still weeding through New England studios to see what they are using so I can beg a chance to listen.

I would definitely meet you at Dr. DSP if you go. I confess the Quested's aren't the ones I was really looking forward to hearing, but I'd love to listen to anything in that price range.

The other arrangement I think is the way you may have to go. I don't know if you post on Gearslutz at all to find some of these monitors...but you may have to ask someone for a personal favor. It may be hard to find...but if you find them, I wouldn't hesitate to ask. I don't care if it's the most unfriendly person on the board, just ask. The worst they can do is say no. And when someone owns something of this caliber, you might be surprised at their desire to show them.

If I owned them, and you asked me, my immediate answer would be "yes." I could let you hear my HS8's, Behringer Truth, and that's it lol.

If I were you, this would be my course of action; bear in mind, this is what I would do, bc I've heard some of the drivers. If you cannot find a place to audition them.....being that you said that the BF's were out of your price range, I would take a leap of faith on the ATC's. You said they were affordable vs the BF's. And, the sound of the mid is incredible. It's one of the most amazing drivers you will ever hear. It's clean, honest, extremely revealing. It's an experience, and everyone with ears I respect, walks away saying, "Could anything...possibly... be better than that?" Unless you are doing hip hop or very bass heavy music, I have a hard time believing you would be disappointed. I have never seen anyone hear that driver, and not want to marry it.

To own them...and be able to hear them every day...you may not see the sun for a while.

The only thing I could anticipate being a problem is if you don't like the low end on them. In which case, I would either think about adding a sub, and you would still be well under the BF price. That's only if you don't find the low end is strong enough. But honestly, I would extremely surprised if you didn't like them.

So, I understand not wanting to do the buy it/send it back cycle. But if you can't audition the monitors you want....being that the ATC's are in your price range, and having heard that unbelievable midrange, (it's literally the best I've ever heard) I'm pretty sure you wouldn't send them back. They are ultra revealing, they get very loud, and the tone...it's just hard to imagine anything better.

That's what I would do, if the Quested's don't do it for you. But it's very easy for me to make that call, bc I have a pretty good idea of what the ATC's will sound like. You don't have that insurance. So, whatever you do...I get it.

I wish I had the money to buy them myself, then you could audition them here lol.

My email is claythrow1@gmail.com if you want to get in touch.