On a side topic, for pop or rock, would you want less spread and therefore go with XY?

Damn, BT, your daughter plays pretty nicely! Sounded pretty good, and, yes, X/Y might be a little better for a "pop" sound with less "space" around it.

Yeppers, shes gonna be really really good soon. I'm hearing a little low-mid mud and it sounds like its coming from the room itself. Maybe fill the corners of your room or get some portable bass traps. The Auralex Lenrds really do work for corners. Maybe even a nice cloud over the piano position and you're there. The piano sounds like its a decent one. Better hurry Dad, she's gonna be killer very soon!!! I kinda liked the spacing with this array.

Firstly... She's fantastic!!

Secondly, the piano recording is definitely within range, but a shade on the dark side. That could just be personal preference on your part (or mine). That's why they make Bosendorfers, Steinways, Yamahas, etc., they all have certain tonal signatures.

Your left/right image sounds like I'm sitting on the piano bench, not in a seat in a concert hall. And piano is one of those instruments (like someone's violin thread yesterday), the perspective of the musician playing it and the audience is different. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it's tricky sometimes how to present some instruments. [player's perspective or observer] So don't take that as a critique, I'm asking, is that the common way to track and present a solo classical piano in the stereo field?

I'm woefully unschooled on classical recording, because it just never comes up for me. Be that as it may, I'm always eager to be educated.

Thanks guys. She was only practising too ( and is worried you guys think its her best :)) . We're all so proud.

Davedog, spot on. The room has no acoustic treatment in it so I'm glad you hear this but still thought is was pretty fair. I wanted to see what people thought raw as possible, so I'm assuming the room will sound much better once I do add a cloud or two and some corner traps. I guess it shows how great those 4011 are.
Thanks for the suggestions on the Auralex. I've got some RealTraps in my control room that I hate to take out but may if I can't come up with more $.
There is a BIG window on the left side of the piano that I don't know what to do with. I can't start blocking it off but I'm thinking diffusion or what ?

dvdhawk, I follow your commons for sure. I have an Royer SF24 that is sooooo nice, I may use that to add slight ambience but worry it will unfold the rooms small space.
Yes, I am going for the players POV, thank you for mentioning this. The mic's were pointed 17" from the stick facing towards the bridge. I'm planning to add music to some of these recordings so the less room I think is better, yes? Its why I'm debating XY too.

Thanks for chiming in guys, I really appreciate all your help and encouragement here.

I was going to chime in earlier but got sidetracked. First, a big shoutout to the daughter. Great job. I'd definitely like to hear the Royer. I've had good luck for pop recording with a pair of SM81s just behind the hammers about 5-6" from the strings with one just inside the cross brace and the other about 18-24" to the treble side. (I've got notes somewhere.) The old (1911) Steinway is pretty reverberant all on its own. Doesn't need much of the room for pop.

Thanks Bob, do you want to hear the Royers on their own or as ambiences?
I've not found a way to make a Figure 8 sound good in this room or any small room on its own for that matter. Has anyone?

In classical recording we pretty much always shoot for audience perspective. That doesn't stop me from using a pair of SDC omni's in the curve of the shell pointed at the treble strut/hammers and pointed obliquely past the overstrung area of the harp.

Thanks for chiming in John.

So this method would be unacceptable for classical but very acceptable for modern music, pop, jazz etc?

BobRogers, post: 379024 wrote: I was going to chime in earlier but got sidetracked. First, a big shoutout to the daughter. Great job. I'd definitely like to hear the Royer. I've had good luck for pop recording with a pair of SM81s just behind the hammers about 5-6" from the strings with one just inside the cross brace and the other about 18-24" to the treble side. (I've got notes somewhere.) The old (1911) Steinway is pretty reverberant all on its own. Doesn't need much of the room for pop.

Bob, Here's something we did last year using the Royer 122's , Millennia M-2b micpre and Fireface 800. I believe this was set Blumlein but not not sure. I never made notes on that.
This year I have RME ADI-8 QS converters which sound much better. I'll have to post the same song so you can here the difference. Well, on second thought I guess it wouldn't be a good comparison since everything is changed.

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I have used your method but only very rarely. Once I even set up some U67's on either side of the pianist's head. That experiment only worked for that particular individual. No one else liked the recording. Of course I don't do much if any pop recording anymore and even in jazz it's usually with the whole band on stage so I have the lid down pretty much and everone gobo'd. Spot mic's just reinforce the main pairs for me.

Your method isn't so very different from a Helpenstill FYI. As main mic's, I guess I don't feel I get enough of the soundboard and too much of the hammers when I'm in that close to the pin block.

I do like further away for more wood ( soloists) but this room really sucks for that. 18 x 12 x 8. Close micing is the only way I can tolerate it.

Interesting you mention the one either side. I was just going to try this. See figure E
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Download/~/media/PDF/Download/grandpiano.pdf

Is this what you mean? Two Omnis pointed directly at each other, 4 ft above the keys One mic over High C and the other over Low A ?

Figure B is what I did for the Study in CMaj

The picture on the cover of the brochure is closest to my normal spots though I put the stand much lower and less obvious when possible. I have used ORTF, XY, and spaced omni's as well as the SF12 in Blumlein over the piano with lid removed. When I go MS I usually place the SF12 (or whatever pair) in the bow of the curve, 1-3 feet back and at whatever height my ears say sounds best.

When I did that recording with the 67's, we did a take in omni and one in cardioid. The mic's themselves were literally beside the pianists ears and pointed at the strut bar that crosses the harp above the hammer line. I didn't like the sound at all but maybe there were other contributing factors on that session-like the room, the a-hole pianist, just having returned from a CAX and rifle qual, and probably not enough coffee. Gibb's Rule #23.

I didn't think you were old enough to have a daughter who could play as maturely and refined as she did? She's quite wonderful. Meanwhile, you made a very nice rock 'n roll piano recording of classical music. XY? ORTF? It really wouldn't matter if you are as close as you were in either respect when it comes to fine arts recording as it's too close. Fine for the pop idiom, in the way in which you presented it. Let's face it, most studios that are sane and reasonably priced, don't have much in the way of acoustics. The design criteria is more or less that of an amphitheater than Carnegie Hall. The sound goes up and out and generally disappears without much R 60 to hang around much. And that's why we have these fabulous hardware & software chamber, hall & reverb programs & hardware for. So you can probably get away miking that close when judicious amounts of software is applied. But you already knew that. Yeah, in a small room, I never would use figure 8 patterned microphones much and never have except in MS usage, unless I really wanted to accentuate the acoustics of the environment I was recording in. In that respect, that usage, they function more like Omni-directional microphones in what they pick up. Especially when you have Mr. Blum leaning all over the place. Hey, you guys know how much I love ribbon microphones but I've never had much success getting out of a piano what I want to hear with ribbons on it. Except for perhaps flying a couple in MS for a piano concert recording. While DPA microphones are fabulous sounding, I did find it a bit too brittle, without warmth, without soul. It made her piano playing almost mechanical sounding. But then this was just a test recording after all. Could we still call ourselves audio engineers if we didn't experiment? I think not.

And that stereo perspective of whether it should be from the performers POV or, from the audience POV is always a great one to discuss. Back in my early days, in the 1970s, it always seemed more exciting to presented from the performers POV. But after working in television starting in the early 1980s, my perspective changed radically. And so began my days mixing from the audience & TV POV . Except of course, when the drummer is in the left-hand or right-hand side of the screen, I use my poetic license.

Honest officer, I thought he was in the center of the screen...
Mx. Remy Ann David

Hi Remy, thanks for your ears on this too. I have a 9 year old that is following her footsteps and a 4 year old singing Katy Perry and jumping around the house with a Walmat cardboard Fender lol.

John, I'd like to try a suggestion from you. Knowing what I have here, what do you suggest for this room?

PS
There is quite a difference between ORTF and XY even this close.

Oh! I forgot to tell you this little George Massenburg story. So a couple of very close friends of our family were the principal bass player & principal harpsichordist for the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. One day, Shirley Mathews wanted to make a "Professional" recording and inquired who the best music engineer in Baltimore was. She was referred to George Massenburg who had recently opened his ITI studios with his custom-built console with his famous parametric equalizer's and superb microphone preamps. Shirley didn't want to record it with me at the time as I was only 15, working in broadcasting and only had a TEAC 7030 and a couple of Electro-Voice 636 omnidirectional dynamic microphones. When she got through working with George, she was quite despondent & depressed over the outcome. I was excited that she had worked with George. I asked her what was wrong with her recording of her Dowd harpsichord? She said "it sounds awful...". So she gave me the tape and I loaded it up on the 7030. Hum...I said "well Shirley, George made a great rock 'n roll recording of you playing baroque music on your harpsichord. That Dowd is bad ass sounding...". LMAO she said that she thought that he'd put the microphones much too close inside of the harpsichord. But then George's studio was also all pink in color since he had all of this exposed raw pink fiberglass covering 99% of his walls. Great for disco, Linda Ronstadt, Little Feat or Earth Wind & Fire. But hey, that was 1971. We've all breathed our fair share of fiberglass fibers through the years.

Hey don't Bogart that fiberglass...
Mx. Remy Ann David

I think I'd start with a spaced cardioid pair maybe 20cm apart. Use some of that reverb VST action to stick her in Carnegie or the Sydney Opera House. ORTF is another good option but again in the bow of the piano and not at the keyboard end. Your room is I think not conducive at all to what you ultimately want. One of the local churches with a grand or the local Uni might be the ticket for serious recording. It might cost you a tuning for favor swap or it might be completely gratis. That would get you a better acoustic and without an audience you have the advantage of setting up however you feel.

On a side not, the playing is quite nice. I know this is just a practice skirmish but the "lyric" of the melody could be nuanced more. It is hard as the dickens on piano to do this but the idea is to think/play like an opera singer phrases. Circling the target emPHAsis syLAble can be just the ticket and something I recommend to horn students as well. This is just a small suggestion as the playing really is quite nice. My poor son has to put up with my commentary all the time! I look forward to more recordings of this type to be sure.

Keep the stories coming, Remy!

Oh I know there is a huge difference between XY & ORTF. That's why I rarely use either one. I really don't MS them much. Hey what's wrong with a little phase shift anyhow? I don't know about you but I frequently pull a pillow over my head. Especially when I'm mixing... dreams.

OMG its 4:15 AM!
Remy Ann David doesn't snore

audiokid, post: 379043 wrote: Bob, Here's something we did last year using the Royer 122's , Millennia M-2b micpre and Fireface 800. I believe this was set Blumlein but not not sure. I never made notes on that.
This year I have RME ADI-8 QS converters which sound much better. I'll have to post the same song so you can here the difference. Well, on second thought I guess it wouldn't be a good comparison since everything is changed.

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I like that. You got a good amount of hammer attack for a pop/blues recording. You obviously don't want that much for classical, but I like quite a bit for pop.

I guess I wasn't thinking about your room when I mentioned the SF24. I really need to set up the SF12 in mine and do some experimenting. I like the SM81s in that position (yes, very much like Helpenstill) picking up the hammers, but of course it can be too much. I should be able to position the SF-12 in the room somewhere to get a good second pair that would blend well.

audiokid, is this a (baby) grand or upright model? The reason I ask is I'm starting to record our Yamaha upright and I'm not sure how to mic it. I've tried placing the mics behind the pianist and pointing them toward the piano, and I've tried flying them overhead on a boom pointed down. I've also considered pointing them at the wall against which the piano is placed and even flipping open the top and sticking them inside.

Is it a matter of trial and error or is there a science to this?

BobRogers, post: 379075 wrote: I like that. You got a good amount of hammer attack for a pop/blues recording. You obviously don't want that much for classical, but I like quite a bit for pop.

I guess I wasn't thinking about your room when I mentioned the SF24. I really need to set up the SF12 in mine and do some experimenting. I like the SM81s in that position (yes, very much like Helpenstill) picking up the hammers, but of course it can be too much. I should be able to position the SF-12 in the room somewhere to get a good second pair that would blend well.

Yes, the whole classical business is the opposite from my thinking. I need to start listening to some classical recordings again but from the engineers POV this time. My entire life has been the performer side. Never paid much attention to the recordists POV. I've always disliked the sound of most halls. I'd much rather create my space. Close micing with no room has always been what I shoot for then add virtual flavour to taste. Glad I keep asking here!
I was thinking about getting the Bricasti but see that would be wasted money now. Nothing like the real thing baby.

I'm going to use the SF24 for ambience next. Thanks for the suggestions and compliments Bob. Love those Royers!

vttom, post: 379079 wrote: audiokid, is this a (baby) grand or upright model? The reason I ask is I'm starting to record our Yamaha upright and I'm not sure how to mic it. I've tried placing the mics behind the pianist and pointing them toward the piano, and I've tried flying them overhead on a boom pointed down. I've also considered pointing them at the wall against which the piano is placed and even flipping open the top and sticking them inside.

Is it a matter of trial and error or is there a science to this?

Its a "Parlor Grand" smoke (said with an English accent) lol. 5'10" Basically a bit longer than a Baby. Its in need of complete refurbishing but is what it is. The Royer's are warmer for it and the DPA's hear what it truly sounds like. The hammers are hard and at the end. We're debating restoring it or stepping up to a new Piano. For serious work I do have a church to work in. (Thanks for the suggestion John)

John and friends are really the best to ask, they are the pro's here. Piano's are very tough to get right because of so many factors. As you can sense from the response, the room is a big part to this. The further away from the piano, the more room, the closer you are, the more hammer which is good or bad depending on the style and what kind of piano it is etc... Its a balance factor, mic choice, placement and acoustics all in one. But that's recording too. Piano's need room to really sound great.

Uprights aren't easy

What mic(s) are you using?

audiokid, post: 379095 wrote: What mic(s) are you using?

Well, I'm only just getting started on recording the piano acoustically (been doing MIDI capture up till now). So I'm using what I have, which is just a pair of EV N/D767a dynamic mics. FWIW, the piano is a ~15yr old Yamaha upright from the "silent series". I think the model is MP100.

Chris....How is the top set? Do you have any PZM mics? Is there anything else in the room besides the piano? Have you tried the U87 inside on the octave below middle 'C' as your spot mic and a spaced pair in the room? Yeah , I know its only rock and roll......! (all you classical piano mic'ers)

We had a Parlor Grand in a studio I had for years. Unlike this situation we also had it in a vaulted living room with a sunken sitting area in front of a large stone fireplace. That room was 25X18X18 and the piano filled it perfectly. I know it was the only house in the neighborhood with an 8 banger wall plate for sends....

The reason I ask about PZM's is we also had a 4' X 4' piece of plexiglass that we put under the piano and took a signal off of a PZM and generally used this as our ambient mic in conjunction with a spot room mic and we'd get the size from a stereo verb wet on these two signals as well as the close mics. For a while I had a PZM mounted on a plate up in the rafters above the piano but the partners wife didnt like the cable run in her formal living area.....we were lucky to get the patch panel!

Hi Dave, fun story!

I've never been a fan of PZM because they do an ugly with mids but then again, I've never mic'd a piano with them so that says a lot. But maybe I'm naive?

I hate to go high in this room, it will surely revile the ceiling and box everything in with no mercy. I never added reverb on this sound bite, again just wanted it raw for your ears but may have to try that for fun and post it. Cardioids just outside the piano or the ribbons in Blumlein right over the hammers have been my fav so far.

For classical its obvious this room simply doesn't cut it unless I faux it and even then, however, that could win some business which I'm hoping will happen. We have students coming here all the time. I want to do demo's for them, then, hopefully after hearing them, may want to have their work recorded really nicely, I can book time in the church.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions! I hope you all don't get tired of me doing this a few times, I'm sure to post a few more of these.

From a performer perspective, the most critical feature of the piano will be the touch of the keyboard itself. You will want a technician to at the very least address rebushing the keys, leveling the keys with new and firm felt punchings on the balance rail and front rail pins, and possibly placing new felt strip on the back under the keysticks. Obviously this does not obviate a full regulation/rebuild but the keys themselves are what most pianists remember from playing more than the sound itself.

I think you will still want to move your mic's around to the other side of the piano even if you go the reverb route which is perfectly valid for a studio. When possible you will definitely prefer the church scenario though. In that case the SF24 in blumlein close to the piano and pointing down 40-50 degrees and a spaced dpa pair about eight to ten feet back/ten feet tall will be a great starting point. You want the room but you don't want too much of a church boominess.

Oh yeah, for rock or jazz piano, PZM can definitely be a helpful option. It may not be a solo option but is great for a supporting role in grabbing the piano sound.

Recording a vertical piano is an exersize in experimentation. You need to start by pulling it AWAY from any walls. This is really critical. Get it into the middle of the room or 1/3rd of the way at any rate.

Now, some verticals sound best with the lid up, the knee board on, and the music desk in place. Others sound best with all of the above removed. You won't know which yours is probably until you try both. You're listening to the quality of the sound here and not the volume. Volume is irrelevant for recording vertical pianos. In either case you will probably want the lid propped up even if it isn't removed/thrown back. You will probably want to point one mic in from the left of the piano bench toward the low C hammer (C3). The other mic put on the right side of the piano bench pointing toward high C hammer (C5). This is only a starting point. If the kneeboard is removed then try placing one mic on the right edge of the piano case pointing at C3 hammer and the other at the left of the piano bench pointing at the harp center (low in the kneeboard area). You can try micing the back (soundboard) but that is usually "muddy" and too much hammer thump. Again experimentation is de rigeur. (did you like what I did there...a Jarhead using french...edumacated sez I)

John, the other side? I never thought about this. I'm micing with full stick out side but facing into it. I should go to the other side and go where ? The piano is in the corner which is the other side?. Maybe we should re adjust the room?

Yes, we are considering a complete rebuild. Sending the hammers away and all done to new, strings etc.. What does this usually cost where you are?

Virtual as in reverb or room simulators. Just thought I would clarify that in case someone wondered what I meant.

I thought you micing up by the player. I simply meant around in the bow of the case. With lid removed you could try micing from the straight side or one on either side but I think coincident or near coincident is the way to go.

A rebuild by a high quality tech is not cheap but likely less than a new U87. There is a fellow up there in your area-well it's a big place so area is relative. Dan Silverwood (Dead Link Removed) phone number 604.732.7863

Dan is a fabulous old school piano craftsman that from what I know is very fair value for what he charges. Maybe he even has a better option for you than what you have. Never know.

Nope, in the bow about 12" out, 17 back from the stick, 4' high and pointing into the harp about 35 degrees. Glad we got that cleared up :)

The figure E in the DPA link was only in reference to your mention of that one time. I'm told the exact placement for this is critical but it does seem kind of unique. Maybe that would be good for some very subtle effect in and larger array.

Thanks for the link on Dan!

For a non-live "studio" piano recording I always have mic's in the piano to add definition and power. If I could/can find a way to be visually invisible I would do it for live recording and especially chamber recordings too. In piano quintet concerts the piano is ALWAYS the weakest sonic link in the recording. IMO of course.

I think with the limited height in the room that removing the top is gonna get all those nodes a -janglin...And you're gonna want the piano in the middle if possible. I you're serious about this room as a tracking room for recitals then its gonna be clouds and corners.....If you have a long wall without anything on it then traps and absorption alternated with diffusion. You certainly dont want dead unless you like the 70's rock piano sound.

I really do suggest that with all the mics outside that you get something inside and VOILA! you've finally found a use for the U87ai!!! Move it around until it gets sweet.....dont worry, it will, and leave it there.

Davedog, post: 379124 wrote: I think with the limited height in the room that removing the top is gonna get all those nodes a -janglin...And you're gonna want the piano in the middle if possible. I you're serious about this room as a tracking room for recitals then its gonna be clouds and corners.....If you have a long wall without anything on it then traps and absorption alternated with diffusion. You certainly dont want dead unless you like the 70's rock piano sound.

I really do suggest that with all the mics outside that you get something inside and VOILA! you've finally found a use for the U87ai!!! Move it around until it gets sweet.....dont worry, it will, and leave it there.

Okay, you have my attention on the u87. Where do I put this again?

I always placed one at the C below middle C right below the dampers. (ie: slightly down string from the damper) Rotate in the basket for impact and phase. This is your starting point. All pianos are different. But with your front-end and with what you're trying achieve in your room , investigating this mic in this position will be eye-opening even if you dont use it. 87's were built for two things....vocalists and pianos.

Davedog, post: 379129 wrote: I always placed one at the C below middle C right below the dampers. (ie: slightly down string from the damper) Rotate in the basket for impact and phase. This is your starting point. All pianos are different. But with your front-end and with what you're trying achieve in your room , investigating this mic in this position will be eye-opening even if you dont use it. 87's were built for two things....vocalists and pianos.

What pattern Dave?

Also, are you doing this with the lid off?

Sometimes lid on sometimes lid off. When I had access to this particular set up the room was quite tall so the lid off worked well. In your case the lid off is simply going to flood your space with too much piano.

Pattern can be any of the three but omni and cardioid works best.