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Tannoy Reveal, Rokit KRK G4, Yamaha HS or Yamaha MSP?

Hello all,

I opened a new thread, because the question in maybe too specific. Did not see people comparing monitors in my scenario. Sorry if it is a dupe.

In the past I asked suggestions on equipment and topics sequence for correct learning music production. It was very helpful (Thank you very much @pcrecord !). Now I moved from Brazil to Frankfurt/Germany and I am preparing myself to buy a set of speakers. I use to work with Yamaha HS5, in Brazil the price was ok at the time. Now here in Germany I have access to a broader set of brands and the prices are ok to higher quality equipments. I found the following:

€ 150 - Tannoy Reveal 802
€ 150 - KRK Rokit RP5 G4
€ 235 - KRK Rokit RP8 G4
€ 259 - Yamaha HS8
€ 271 - Yamaha MSP5
€ 435 - Neumann KH 80 DSP
€ 577 - Neumann KH 120 A
> € 700 - Yamaha MSP7 (to buy this I would have to find a Yamaha dealer, pretty hard to find)

The application will be basic in-line recording, mixing, music production with VST. My room is not treated and will not so soon be (means +5 years to have space and treatment in a small room like 16m² or less). I have beginner ears and experience. But I will not buy speakers much more than maybe once every 10 years. This is not an investment that will be frequently be upgraded (like a mobile phone or something more disposable). I am looking for a good cost benefit and long lasting quality device. My target expense is running around € 500 for a pair.

I personally like Yamaha sounding because I am used with the brand even with non professional speakers in my home theater set (NS-P40, NS-B210, etc). But I as well miss some basses. That is why I am considering moving from HS5 experience to HS8 (imagining that a bigger speaker will have more present bass).

I thought about the KRK Rokits because I had personal experience in a studio in Curitiba/Brazil, where the recording operator and the main mixer/mastering professional were using KRK RP8 G2 for their tasks. But after viewing a series of youtube reviews and reading texts, I noticed that KRK have too uneven low ends, too colored. As well I saw a very prolific music teacher and youtuber using Tannoy Reveal as main speakers, he is a professional and he is using a cheap monitor. Am I then, as lame as I am, thinking too much?

Thank you and best regards.

(obs.: if anybody here is from Frankfut, let's have a chat!)

Comments

pcrecord Tue, 10/01/2019 - 07:23

amadeustm, post: 462271, member: 32801 wrote: That is why I am considering moving from HS5 experience to HS8 (imagining that a bigger speaker will have more present bass).

Why don't you just add their subwoofer instead, you'll get far more bass and lower frequencies than the HS8 can produce.
Also note that the HS series need about a meter from the wall to develop lowend content. if you don't have that space (this is my case), then you definetly need their sub !
I got the HS8 first and was low on bass to my taste and added the sub.. now it's the perfect setup for me..
I'm guessing the HS5 and Sub would also be a very good setup.

pcrecord Tue, 10/01/2019 - 08:00

Oh sorry, when you said moving from, I thought you already had them..
In that case, just know that the HS5 are very good and you would need a big room to feel the need to go with the HS8.
My place is small and I'm not at all regretting my HS8, but if you have bass craving ears like mine, a sub is a must.. ;)

kmetal Tue, 10/01/2019 - 08:05

Hey there, i had a buddy stationed in Germany for a couple years, ive heard its a lot of fun!

Ive mixed on hs8's, and compared rokit5 (gen3), hs5, and the reveals, at guitar center one afternoon.

Yamaha has a good handle on the mid range, which is the most critical to get right generally speaking. I found the mixes i did on hs8's translated well, and stood up over time. Yamaha doesnt have the most detail or depth in the top, so super detailed stuff may go by unheard. This is less of a problem since your not tracking live instruments where squeaks and hums can be nasty surprises.

I feel the hs5's plus the yamaha sub, is a better option than just a pair of 8's, and a comparable price. Reason being is your allowing each speaker (and amp) to do less work, and focus on a specific range. Clear mids from the 5's and bass from the woofer. With the 8's your asking alot from the 8" cone- articulate mids and accurate bass, and its got to compromise, especially at this price point.

A dedicated sub lets you place the sub physically where it sounds best and tweak its level and crossover to optimize its response. This is something you cant do on the hs8's alone. You may also be able to switch the sub on and off (with a power strip or footswitch) depending how its connected, or if the sub passes signal to the tops while powered off.

With the rokits, the new g4 has been completely redesigned. Supposedly according to their product manager they have decided to aim for a flat response this time, instead of the typical scooped mid sound of previous gen rokits. One of the ways they managed costs of the improved cabinet and drivers, is to incorporate dsp crossovers, and eq, instead of analog components for these.

It may be worth listening to the new krk to see if they exhibit a more clear mid range and better overall response.

I didn't like the the reveals when i heard them. I felt they sounded "cheap" and didn't project anything useful for mixing, or sound good for general listening.

Neumann monitors have gotten good reveiws, id heavily investigate those, especially if your planning on a single pair of speakers.

Fwiw for my interim home studio, im opting hs5's/sub, and looking heavily into rokit5 gen 4, for my secondary set. I never liked the tweeters on the older krk's. I also have a pair of alesis monitor one's mk3, for a third (scooped type) reference. Its worth noting the gen3 krk rokit8's are priced the same as the new gen rokit5's, right now, at least in the states.

(Sorry i typed this as you guys had already responded)

pcrecord Tue, 10/01/2019 - 08:09

When it was time to buy new monitors, I didn't try many before I bought the HS8 because I got them at a very low price. Brand new at 50% if I remember.
So I just build up with the sub afterward and never looked back ;)

The MSPs seems very nice too. Having the bass port in the front instead of the back is certainly a +. (specially if you are near a wall)
But I never heard them.. you need to go with your ears and what makes you mix better.

amadeustm Tue, 10/08/2019 - 03:36

Hey man, @pcrecord I saw the HS8 in promotion (from 290 to 230) and I bought one speaker. whatever, lets mix in mono! haha just kidding. of course it will be a pair, but they only had one unit. as soon as more units arrive at this price i will buy the second.

but i must be honest to give you guys reason, HS8 is too gigantic to my room. the good thing is to have some more bass meanwhile i dont have the subwoofer (if I ever buy one). but it is enormous. i overestimated the size of my desk. this monitor is maybe bigger than the ones they had in the studio i used to work a few years ago. but now it is done. with time and patience i will do room treatment and focus on finding a new place to live in which I have a nice room to work inside, with enough space to place the speakers (a room with a minimum of 4 meters wide, considering distance from walls being >1.5m each).

But am I calculating it right? HS8 plays 38Hz - 30KHz. For hearing properly 38Hz I will need a distance of 8.9 meters (1130 feet / 38 Hz = 29 feet ~ 8.9 meters)? So I need a room with 9 meters long or 4.5m (considering the wave goes to the wall and comes back)?

How is this different than the HS5 or even the subwoofer? (HS5 that plays 54Hz - 30kHz, where 54Hz needs 6.3 meters, the subwoofer plays 22Hz - 160Hz, where 22Hz needs 15.6 meters)
It is just room size or is it as well minimum listening volume level?

I am a little lost and now thinking that I am totally wasting my money on the HS8. And I cannot figure out how 2x HS5+sub could fit any small room (3x3m).

thanks anyway! cheers!(y)

pcrecord Tue, 10/08/2019 - 04:51

amadeustm, post: 462303, member: 32801 wrote: But am I calculating it right? HS8 plays 38Hz - 30KHz. For hearing properly 38Hz I will need a distance of 8.9 meters (1130 feet / 38 Hz = 29 feet ~ 8.9 meters)? So I need a room with 9 meters long or 4.5m (considering the wave goes to the wall and comes back)?

Don't forget the HS have rear bass port, so I think you should calculate the distance to the wall and back.

kmetal Tue, 10/08/2019 - 11:33

amadeustm, post: 462303, member: 32801 wrote: Hey man, @pcrecord I saw the HS8 in promotion (from 290 to 230) and I bought one speaker. whatever, lets mix in mono! haha just kidding. of course it will be a pair, but they only had one unit. as soon as more units arrive at this price i will buy the second.

but i must be honest to give you guys reason, HS8 is too gigantic to my room. the good thing is to have some more bass meanwhile i dont have the subwoofer (if I ever buy one). but it is enormous. i overestimated the size of my desk. this monitor is maybe bigger than the ones they had in the studio i used to work a few years ago. but now it is done. with time and patience i will do room treatment and focus on finding a new place to live in which I have a nice room to work inside, with enough space to place the speakers (a room with a minimum of 4 meters wide, considering distance from walls being >1.5m each).

But am I calculating it right? HS8 plays 38Hz - 30KHz. For hearing properly 38Hz I will need a distance of 8.9 meters (1130 feet / 38 Hz = 29 feet ~ 8.9 meters)? So I need a room with 9 meters long or 4.5m (considering the wave goes to the wall and comes back)?

How is this different than the HS5 or even the subwoofer? (HS5 that plays 54Hz - 30kHz, where 54Hz needs 6.3 meters, the subwoofer plays 22Hz - 160Hz, where 22Hz needs 15.6 meters)
It is just room size or is it as well minimum listening volume level?

I am a little lost and now thinking that I am totally wasting my money on the HS8. And I cannot figure out how 2x HS5+sub could fit any small room (3x3m).

thanks anyway! cheers!(y)

Im not an expert with acoustic calculations. One thing to keep in mind is the height and width of the room, the cubic footage/cubic meters. A room doesnt have to have the same length as the wavelength of the lowest frequency the speaker can reproduce to be accurate. Some famous small room ratios, like the ones from sepmeyer, are well under 25ft in lenght. And these were determined to be ratios with the statistically best low end frequency distribution. If your room is 3m x 3m, its going to be difficult to get good bass response since its a square, and likely has a lower ceiling. Bass trapping cannot be stressed enough.

This is where bass trapping comes in. It traps the energy that would otherwise come back out of phase and cause interference.

The advantage to a pair of 5s plus a sub, is you can locate the sub anywhere in the room, ie where is has the best low frequency response. You also have a level control for it, and an adjustable crossover, which further help you tailor the response in the room. The 5 inch speaker cones give you a more articulate mid range than the 8s would due to their size, and the fact that the 8s also have to reproduce bass. The seperate sub also allows you to shut off the subs and check just the mids, assuming the model passes signal while off.

Its your call as to weather the 8s are too much for your room and if the deal was actually worth it. I never heard my mackie hr8 mk2s low end accurately until i moved them from a 12x13 room to a 12x22 sized room. Its one of the few tines the guy at guitar center was actually right! He told me to get the hr6s because the 8s had too much power for the room.

You may want to consider a mixcube to double check the mids in your mix which cant just be bandpassed like lows can. You also will want to experiment heavily with speaker location and the eq switches on the back.

There is school of thought that in small rooms speakers should be placed right up against the front wall for best bass response. Not sure this applies to rear ported speakers. Speaker stands will help you move them around to the best spot.

kmetal Tue, 10/08/2019 - 12:33

@pcrecord do you know if the yamaha sub passes signal thru to the mains when powered off? This way you could hookup a little footswitch or wifi plug to the power plug to turn the sub on and off.

The other way i can think of is if you you have the sub hooked up to a dedicated output of the interface as a ".1" in the monitoring system.

pcrecord Wed, 10/09/2019 - 04:53

kmetal, post: 462313, member: 37533 wrote: @pcrecord do you know if the yamaha sub passes signal thru to the mains when powered off? This way you could hookup a little footswitch or wifi plug to the power plug to turn the sub on and off.

The other way i can think of is if you you have the sub hooked up to a dedicated output of the interface as a ".1" in the monitoring system.

That's a very good question.. My first thought would be to say no, because the sub has a crossover circuit in between the inputs and outputs. Unless it's passive, shutting down the sub would cut the signal going to the tops.

Of course you could feed the tops from the parallele inputs but I doubt it's a good idea to bypass the crossover...

I'll try to remember to test this tonight when I get to the studio..

Boswell Wed, 10/09/2019 - 07:37

There are at least 6 Yamaha subs with varying levels of configuration control (including bypass). Which sub did you have in mind?

I have a KRK powered sub, and I use a simple latching foot pedal for switching the bypass in/out. Any sub that uses a signal relay to switch itself in or out defaults to pure bypass when the mains power to the sub is removed.

amadeustm Thu, 10/10/2019 - 09:06

@pcrecord @kmetal (and everyone involved) so the HS8 arrived and its bass is a punch in my face. it is awesome to hear "Doin' it Right" from Daft Punk, a music that few systems (that I could get in contact with) really are able to play the bass at 0:00:27 of the song. but when you go to "Lose yourself to dance" the whole bass is overwhelming. Now my option is ask the store to send me HS7 or HS5 in exchange. my room is 26m², i don't have many options of location and positioning and the box will have to stay really close to the wall. since i have not enough experience to decide this, what do you suggest? follows a picture for you guys to see the situation. The computer and speakers must be located in that wall. I don't have other option in this apartment.


and the prices, for comparison, since it is part of the decision thinking.

HS5 - 139 eur
HS7 - 179 eur
HS8 - 235 eur

Sub HS8S - 460 eur

pcrecord Thu, 10/10/2019 - 09:40

Wait before you make some moves.
The first thing that strucked me in your picture is that you are setup in a corner and you did put the speaker in the corner.. with no apparent audio treatment.
This seems evident that you are going to have a bunch of problems what ever the monitors you use.

If you could move your desk to the middle of the right wall (on the picture) to have equal distance from the side walls, it will greatly change the stereo and frequency balance.
Then on those corners left and right of the desk, if you could add some DIY bass traps. Man it will change your world.
Once the positionning is done, if you still have an unbalanced sound, you could treat the first reflection points on the side walls.

Nice place btw, with great natural light coming from those windows. ;)

amadeustm Thu, 10/10/2019 - 09:48

Hehe thanks man.

But unfortunately the table cannot be moved. We live in a "small" apt with not many options for the monitors. That's why I had to put the pc and speakers in that table and in that wall,positioned like that. If I use the right wall, it will be directly on the way. So I have to arrange myself in that corner, as is. :-(

Bass traps that I could are the usual acoustic pads. That's an option. Keep the hs8, then? I was ready to go to hs5's.

kmetal Thu, 10/10/2019 - 10:11

Positioning the speakers in the corner adds 3 or 6 db to the low end. The mopads help a bit but having the speakers on the desk increases bass problems and mid/high issues too. Rear ported speakers need a certian amount of space behind them which should be listed in the manual.

The rokits are front ported i believe...

If the speakers absolutely cant be moved and put on stands then your going to have to accept a fairly compromised response. Id aim to put the speakers on the wall the guitar is resting on, or the wall opposite that. Windows are bass traps. But again if they cant be moved then it is what it is.

Either way id go with 5s. Then add a sub if needed.

Im not sure what your expectations are as far as final results, so that really determines how much treatment ect is necessary.

You may get alot of mileage out of a mix cube type thing. Since bass response is not going to be very accurate, you can at least focus on the mids, which are arguably most important, especially in the cell phone ear bud era. Mids are also easier to treat. You can make some panels and mount them on mic stands to have a portable setup that you can tuck away when needed.

Even the expensive 8" 2 way speakers like quested and meyer ive used are compromised. You never get truly accurate bass and mids from a single 8" speaker and its amp and crossover.

Imho 8" are super fun for casual listening cuz they bang, but are difficult to mix on even in excellent rooms.

Ps. Dont forget about the bass cut switch on the back of the yamaha.

And once you get your speakers you can use the free REW software to help get the best response from the speakers. They make a dsp box for about $115 USD on amazon that can load the eq right from the rew software. People seem to be getting good results with the Sonarworks speaker tuning software too.

kmetal Thu, 10/10/2019 - 10:30

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=13&w=10&h=8&r60=0.6

You can enter your room dimensions into this calculator and it will tell you what your room modes are. Those are the frequencies that will be boosted and canceled the most in your room.

That way at least you know that if your boosting or cutting significantly at one of those frequencies, that its the room lying to you, not something on the recording.

It will also help explain why some some songs seem to have more or less bass, if the key of the song coincides with your room modes.

pcrecord Fri, 10/11/2019 - 05:05

I think placing your setup in a corner is the worst place you could chose..
In all respect to K, calibration tool have been made for those who already place themself in the best position and want an extra control. But it doesn't fix everything...
Also Acoustic pads ?? If you meen foam, they also are the worst thing you can use because they don't affect low frequencies it will only worsen the problem by tamming the highs...

The only thing that can help, in my opinion (regardless of the monitor choice) is to make yourself or buy some bass traps.
The will also help if you record with a mic in the room..

Here are some random DIY videos :

amadeustm Fri, 10/11/2019 - 05:42

alright. so I will give back the HS8's and pick the HS7 (the store didn't have the hs5's anymore and they offered only credit, not cash back). As well it is ok to have HS7 because they fit size-wise at the moment and for the long run (20 years?) they will be decent enough in the new house, whenever that happens. for the moment mixing will take a second priority because room treatment will be limited. I am renting and I don't have many options of changing layouts, as I mentioned. maybe I rent a room in a studio nearby to do mixing, when they get needed (i need to do some new friendships). for the fun of just creating music, the HS7 will suffice. at a later point i will go for the sub-woofer solution, adding them to the project and cutting off the basses from the monitors, as you guys suggested.

kmetal, post: 462323, member: 37533 wrote: REW software

kmetal, post: 462323, member: 37533 wrote: dsp box

taming the room is something i always had in mind. i know the importance, of course. if i could i would do it, no questions asked. i never heard about this miniDSP tool, sounds pretty cool. thanks for the video as well.

kmetal, post: 462323, member: 37533 wrote: Im not sure what your expectations are as far as final results,

i am a newbie and i am just starting to mount the project. while i dont have a minimum acceptable scenario, i will start with just having a decent set of speakers, interface and midi controller. that should be enough to play around until i can adapt this scenario further. kids are on the way, having a dedicaded room for mixing is kinda hard in my situation.

pcrecord, post: 462326, member: 46460 wrote: to make yourself or buy some bass traps

i will sure consider that. thanks for all the links

kmetal, post: 462323, member: 37533 wrote: mopads help a bit

I added a rubber base to hold some of the vibrations and put the trimmer to -4db (room control, reduces bass levels). it helped a lot but still gets very heavy on the low end.

amadeustm Fri, 10/11/2019 - 12:00

yeah, but at least they fit my table, and the exchange grands me some bucks to buy the rest of the setup. i still need the audio interface and a mic.

but i will not trust anything for mixing before treating the room. was very, very helpful the talk. i always have great support from you guys.

i was wondering, do you guys have any material you mixed that i could hear? @pcrecord @kmetal

thanks!!

miyaru Mon, 10/21/2019 - 13:44

I have a small room too, 4,5 meters by 2,5 meters, and use Presonus Eris E8 - 8" monitors. Because I have a problematic room, I use Sonarworks reference 4 software to correct problems. This works not 100% but goes a long way, and will set you back €300,=. For that money you get the software for your monitors, and fair amount of sorts and brands of headphones, and a measering mic that is callibrated for the software. This might help a bit to avoid bass buildup. Even thought bass build up sounds atractive to some, it won't help you to get a good mix in the end......

Check out: https://www.sonarworks.com/reference?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs62l5Juu5QIViZ3VCh0HJQvKEAAYASAAEgJBkfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

kmetal Mon, 10/21/2019 - 15:52

miyaru, post: 462413, member: 49780 wrote: I have a small room too, 4,5 meters by 2,5 meters, and use Presonus Eris E8 - 8" monitors. Because I have a problematic room, I use Sonarworks reference 4 software to correct problems. This works not 100% but goes a long way, and will set you back €300,=. For that money you get the software for your monitors, and fair amount of sorts and brands of headphones, and a measering mic that is callibrated for the software. This might help a bit to avoid bass buildup. Even thought bass build up sounds atractive to some, it won't help you to get a good mix in the end......

Check out: https://www.sonarworks.com/reference?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs62l5Juu5QIViZ3VCh0HJQvKEAAYASAAEgJBkfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ive been curious how your mixes are translating lately with sonarworks. Also have you entered the samplitude give away contest here yet??

miyaru Tue, 10/22/2019 - 03:09

Hello Kyle, and all others of course! I have entered the Samplitude give away, how could one not do so, it is a great give away!!!!

Kyle, you ask me how do mixes translate lately. Well I made one complete mix, which I send in here on the forum, with the stems provided.

https://recording.org/threads/mix-exercise-part-1-session-preparation.64650/page-2 on this page there iare two mixes from me on the song.

What I can say about Sonarworks: works well, behaves well in the population of other audio software in my PC. Mixes come out more transparent, more focused. The lows are tighter, bass build up because of the corners get supressed, and the mid an high range seem to be so muh clearer to me. For tracking there is a no latency setting, and for mixing a non phase setting. I also bought two cheap Samson Headphones, which have a profile for Sonarworks, so me and a co-worker can benifit from Sonarworks without having to spent money on another Beyer Dynamic DT 770 pro which I already had.
I'm convinced the sound could be better if my room was fully treated, but for a room what it is now it sounds more then OK.
In the futere I want to treat the corners with Auralex corner traps and see what that does.

When you start using Sonarworks, things sound thin and basslight, but that is normal for a room like mine where there is not much space behind the speakers and being in corners. After a while I found it was less fatiquing to listen to. The messurement mic in the package is nice too.

Due to extreme private bussiness, I never came to try the package that you pointed me too, which was free of cost - I'm sorry!

All in all, I would not wan't to be without Sonarworks anymore!!!!

zerosin Sat, 12/14/2019 - 17:52

For what it's worth, every KRK I've had so far has has manufacturing issues. The caps could also be of better quality. I've attached a pic of my Rokit 6 that I was recapping with Nichicon audio grade caps after hearing an occasional hissing from the one pictured. Turns out one of the main caps didn't even get soldered down properly. The post was loose in one hole. They gooped black sticky stuff all over the insides to keep that crappy stuff from falling out. If it wasn't for the goop, the cap would have fell right out. So I think KRK knows what's going on. NOT COOL!

My Rokit 10 had a molex connector that was never pushed all the way down. After a few years the amp started cutting in and out. Took it apart and found the connector, obviously, not pushed down properly. NOT vibrated out. Well, yes it vibrated out a bit because it was never properly seated. KRK=crappy quality control.

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