Duh.. Likely a good place to start lol Not as easy as hopped. hmm

• https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215073486-How-do-I-tell-if-my-Windows-PC-has-Thunderbolt-3-
• https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/214427746#TB3toTB

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You’ll be building a new pc :). And welcome back buddy.

Thanks Tony. Damn... I could just re buy what I used before but I hate to go backwards.

After finally running into an event that is nearing my tipping point, 2012 5,1 Mac not really liking that 3.1 C card I put in. I am getting close to building a PC. You may recall I dove into Cubase Pro a while back, that is part of the (possible) shift. I ended up putting my lovely fast SSD drives inside my Mac, lost about 500mbsec in the process, but still faster than traditional spinners. Thunderbolt is nearing maturity for PC's, but, it's still not a cheap readily available option.

You need to check your mobo's docs. The BIOS needs TB support. If it isn't there, you can hope for a card with a BIOS extension rom. Haven't seen those around and I don't think anyone will be developing them. Question of a small market and the need to get it validated by Intel.

The same goes for the Mac Pro's. No easy way to add TB with an addon card. If you need TB, you need to get a new Mac, I'm afraid.

cyrano you’re a little behind the times :). Asus Msi and others have thunderbolt 3 ports built in now. Cost though, as I said :-/.

Built-in, yes. But we were talking about add-on cards. Or, at least, I was.. :D

It can be done if you have a recent mobo with support for TB. But some are advertised as having support, but when you try it, it's "coming in an upgrade". When is the question.

Many mid teir mobos have TB3 ports currently. Gigabytes tb3 add on card has a mobo comparability list. As far back as x99 and 100 series gigabyte boards are supported with this card. Fortunately the mobos can be had from around 100$ and up depending on model. The z170x UD3 board is 130 new on amazon.

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GC-ALPINE-RIDGE-rev-10#ov

audiokid what model is your intel chip? This will determine what socket it uses, and if there is a compatible Motherboard it fits in.

According to Anantech AMD is also working on TB3 validation now that intel has started licencing it out. The gigabyte Designare x399 (amd threadripper) motherboard has a slot for TB3, although it is inactive, it seems a bios/firmware update will render it useable once validation us complete. I wonder if the threadripper 3 line will coincide with this capability.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11847/gigabyte-announces-x399-designare-ex

Makzimia, post: 460369, member: 48344 wrote: I am getting close to building a PC.

Everytime i get out, they suck me back in. Lol.

Im disappointed to hear about your computer issues Tony. You can always usr your mac pro as a slave machine using VEP, (vienna ensemble pro) and run your vsti, And you mix pluggins on the slave. This can be done with no additional buffers/latency relative to whatever your session settings are set to. This way you can go with a more modest main machine if you choose to, and make use of your elder machine till the wheels fall off. You can mix and match pc/macs.

The new crop of hardwsre, nvme, thunderbolt, and the current line of processors from both makers, are screamin demons. Intel edges out realtime performance, Amd comes a close second, but runs away in the performance per dollar catagory. We are talking a 450$ threadripper competing with a 1k+ intel. To each his own, but glorious power to all. Hundreds, hundreds! Of kontact vsti at 256 buffer. Damn dude.

From Scan Pro Audio:

DSP power

VSTi power.

kmetal, post: 460376, member: 37533 wrote: Many mid teir mobos have TB3 ports currently. Gigabytes tb3 add on card has a mobo comparability list. As far back as x99 and 100 series gigabyte boards are supported with this card. Fortunately the mobos can be had from around 100$ and up depending on model. The z170x UD3 board is 130 new on amazon.

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GC-ALPINE-RIDGE-rev-10#ov

audiokid what model is your intel chip? This will determine what socket it uses, and if there is a compatible Motherboard it fits in.

According to Anantech AMD is also working on TB3 validation now that intel has started licencing it out. The gigabyte Designare x399 (amd threadripper) motherboard has a slot for TB3, although it is inactive, it seems a bios/firmware update will render it useable once validation us complete. I wonder if the threadripper 3 line will coincide with this capability.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11847/gigabyte-announces-x399-designare-ex

Its a 966 I7

just before I shut down my big studio PCAudioLabs sent me an upgrade Motherboard for it which I've not installed. Its a Gigabyte GA-EX58-UDS
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-EX58-UD5-rev-10#ov

Box say it’s w/o I/o shield?

It looks more like this though
https://www.alphr.com/gigabyte/gigabyte-ga-ex58-ud5/29384/gigabyte-ga-ex58-ud5-review
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001KAFRCK/?tag=r06fa-20

kmetal Kyle :). Feel like I'm in danger of derailing Chris's original question here LOL. Anyway, I have used VE Pro. I thought of it as yet another cog to have to keep in place though. I have simplified my installs this time. Due to the issues I had I replaced my main SSD with a bigger one, pulled the externals in, and went with a cut down install of just things that are latest versions, and fully owned, Steven Slate went bye bye for example. I was SOOOooo close to just buying someones VS2480HD with all cards and external drive etc. I really hate worrying about too many moving parts. I just want to record, turn the machine on, load up a template and go.

Anyway, back to Chris's question, I think we've answered it :). New MB mate, best solution, and go i9 LOL.

Tony

I couldn't find anything that mentions this mobo supports TB. The board seems to be from the '08-'10 era, where thunderbolt was brand new. Its chipset is x58, and from what i can find, the x87 chipset based mobos is the earliest with tb support. This uses the 1150 socket for tbe procesor, not 1366 like yours.

This mobo from Asus mentions TB, but im not sure its what you need, or even for audio. https://www.asus.com/ph/Motherboards/RAMPAGE_III_BLACK_EDITION/ProductPrint/

One thing worth noting, is Apollo X is only compatible with TB3 for windows, but is backwards compatible tb/tb2 on macs.

The firewire based apollos are windows compatible, and the blackface are Tb2 based and windows compatible.

The conversions dynamic range for the silver (firewire) is 117/118db, 120/121db for the blackface.

I would verify my thoughts regarding your currrent i7/mobo with pc audio labs, but i think its going to take a current processor and mobo to get into TB3. I ran into this issue when specing out my new pcs when considering amd and intel.

The good news is for a holdover, you have reasonable options. You can get an i5 acer aspire with 6 cores, for $400 and swap in a new mobo. This should outperform the current PC by a decent amount given tbe faster memory ddr4, and the nvme storage. https://www.microcenter.com/product/507423/acer-aspire-tc-885-ur12-desktop-computer

I bought this pc for mastering, capture, and software testing.

You could build an i5 for a similar price, and have better components like psu, and not have to have an extra mobo laying around.

I opted agaisnt apollo for now since true high performing intel chips are very expensive cost vs performance wise. 8 cores running around 6-800, 10 core running around 1k. While core for core they outperform amd, amd runs 40-50% cheaper cost vs performance. So a 16 core amd for 5-600, outperforms a 10 core intel for 1k.

Not to blather off topic too far. But it looks like youll need to upgrade both the processor, ram, and mobo, to get to tb3. One adavantage you have is you can probably salvage your old PSU, and harddrives.

kmetal, post: 460385, member: 37533 wrote: I couldn't find anything that mentions this mobo supports TB. The board seems to be from the '08-'10 era, where thunderbolt was brand new. Its chipset is x58, and from what i can find, the x87 chipset based mobos is the earliest with tb support. This uses the 1150 socket for tbe procesor, not 1366 like yours.

This mobo from Asus mentions TB, but im not sure its what you need, or even for audio. https://www.asus.com/ph/Motherboards/RAMPAGE_III_BLACK_EDITION/ProductPrint/

One thing worth noting, is Apollo X is only compatible with TB3 for windows, but is backwards compatible tb/tb2 on macs.

The firewire based apollos are windows compatible, and the blackface are Tb2 based and windows compatible.

The conversions dynamic range for the silver (firewire) is 117/118db, 120/121db for the blackface.

I would verify my thoughts regarding your currrent i7/mobo with pc audio labs, but i think its going to take a current processor and mobo to get into TB3. I ran into this issue when specing out my new pcs when considering amd and intel.

The good news is for a holdover, you have reasonable options. You can get an i5 acer aspire with 6 cores, for $400 and swap in a new mobo. This should outperform the current PC by a decent amount given tbe faster memory ddr4, and the nvme storage. https://www.microcenter.com/product/507423/acer-aspire-tc-885-ur12-desktop-computer

I bought this pc for mastering, capture, and software testing.

You could build an i5 for a similar price, and have better components like psu, and not have to have an extra mobo laying around.

I opted agaisnt apollo for now since true high performing intel chips are very expensive cost vs performance wise. 8 cores running around 6-800, 10 core running around 1k. While core for core they outperform amd, amd runs 40-50% cheaper cost vs performance. So a 16 core amd for 5-600, outperforms a 10 core intel for 1k.

Not to blather off topic too far. But it looks like youll need to upgrade both the processor, ram, and mobo, to get to tb3. One adavantage you have is you can probably salvage your old PSU, and harddrives.

Thanks for the info. I had an Apollo 16 (first gen) some years back and it ran well on FW. Wasn't totally impressed over the overall system though. I had much better options so I was spoiled too. Yup... I'm less picky now that I am starting over lol. Took an ass kicking to humble me lol. ;)

I'm going to can TB3 for now.
Its too much BS to get there. FW or Madi will work. The new Apollo conversion sounds nice. Too bad. Would have been fun to share my thoughts on it.

audiokid, post: 460390, member: 1 wrote: Took an ass kicking to humble me lol. ;)

Lol im still getting humbled each day.

Have you heard the apollo x conversion in person?

Im personally waiting till Tb3 or TB in general becomes more ubiquitous. I wasnt in love with my cuz's Apollo FW sound, or the ua console workflow.

Burl has just released a bunch of new modules including what they're calling a mastering quality DAC. The mothership chasis has a madi option for it. You get the choice of dante, madi, or pthdx, card included with the chasis. Might be worth a look.

Im looking into a pcie card with adda and aes/spdif to combine with something like the 2ch Mytek or Rme adi pro converters.

Definitely looking forward to hearing what you decide on, and what you decided against.

kmetal, post: 460392, member: 37533 wrote: Have you heard the Apollo x conversion in person?

Sorry, I didn't mean that literally. Specs and reviews claim it to be a better sounding ADDA

audiokid, post: 460393, member: 1 wrote: Sorry, I didn't mean that literally. Specs and reviews claim it to be a better sounding ADDA

That's exactly what's always claimed.

Besides, can ADDA's in themselves get any better?

There's no speaker around that can reproduce even half of the dynamic range offered by current top of the line interfaces. Nor is there a mic.

I no longer worry about ADDA's. They're good enough for me.

There are 32 bit AD's coming to market. But honestly, who needs them? Not that I would mind having one, being a true gearslut. But need?

cyrano, post: 460395, member: 51139 wrote: That's exactly what's always claimed.

Besides, can ADDA's in themselves get any better?

There's no speaker around that can reproduce even half of the dynamic range offered by current top of the line interfaces. Nor is there a mic.

I no longer worry about ADDA's. They're good enough for me.

There are 32 bit AD's coming to market. But honestly, who needs them? Not that I would mind having one, being a true gearslut. But need?

I believe the continued ADDA improvements are in the analog section. Boswell can testify to this. (better components, PSU.etc)
Being said, I've done enough comparisons with many top brands and there is without questions, subtle to significant differences from various brands.
The differences I hear are how smooth or accurate they translate, openness, added colour, consistencies between each channel, interfacing the ADDA and software as well.

To add, better ADDA sounds significantly better at 16bit than cheap ADDA at 192. Not sure how long this will continue because I do agree that ADDA are improving but I still suspect there is always better ADDA - all part of the good, better, best available components of the day.

Do a blind test. See if it's "better".

"Better" in itself is a subjective parameter.

Mic preamps, fi, are at the edge of physical possibilities. Getting a lower noise floor, fi, is next to impossible.

But, hey, don't let me stop you from looking for it.

I remeber when I first heard an RME, many years ago, it sounded bad. My ears had to adjust to linearity, honesty, or whatever you want to call it. Even when you call it "clinically cold", I won't disagree.

It's the rest of the chain that keeps me busy.

audiokid, post: 460393, member: 1 wrote: Sorry, I didn't mean that literally. Specs and reviews claim it to be a better sounding ADDA

Just curious, im dying to here a review from somone i trust. Maybe theyll send you a test rig.

cyrano, post: 460395, member: 51139 wrote: There are 32 bit AD's coming to market. But honestly, who needs them?

24 bit audio sounded better than 16 bit, and 64bit dawz seem to sound better than 32.

Need, may be an overstatement, but i cant say im not interested.

As far as apollo goes, i think they upgraded the clocking, and they did use dual converters to get the high DR spec like focusrite red did. I havent seen anything as far as the analog section goes, but that doesnt mean they didnt improve that too.

Until quantum computers record audio, i think we are always estimating and averaging in digital what occurs in analog realms.

I compared motu, apogee ensemble, and Rosetta, all in the same studio and rosetta won to my ears. Conversion is a state of the art element of the chain that seems to always improve each gen, and expensive seems always to sound better. Besides just the chip, its the analog section and clocking. Alot of units use the same chip.

I think adda is one of the most critical elements of the chain.

I may incorrectly interpret this, but i see dynamic range as the ability to respond to nuance and in betweens. So hypothisize that higher DR means more detail and better response. Our hearing is only 20hz-22khz but vibration is much wider. So to me being able to accurately respond to a huge spectrum, translates to more accuratw response where it counts, less muck, less filtering in the audible range.

Like all things in audio its about the entire chain, including acoustics and performance.

Im at a phase where im more interested in "good" than accurate, as my hiatus has allowed for more fandom on my part. Ill take some hype if its fun and entertaining. That said, the new breed of adda is seemimg like its gonna be impressive. I love hearing familar tunes on new speakers or rooms or gear.

One thing i recently found was mytek claiming 129db and 127db DR on their Brooklyn and liberty DAC. When SOS tested it using AES17 test standards, it they showed like 118, and 112. Many other units they tested with the same method reflected much closer to published spec. I dont recall tbem testing apollo x yet in the recent write up. Either way, its claimed the mytek stuff sounds great. Howie Wienberg has the brooklyn adda's in his rack so im sure they are high quality. But still. Maybe Boswell has some thoughts on testing/specing converters?

I find it frustrating as a consumer that not only do stores not stock top end gear, the specs are open for interpretation and fudgery too. It makes it very difficult to be sure your getting the best fit. I mean am i supposed to put 20k worth of converters on the credit card to shoot them out and return the losers lol?

@cyran which RME are you using. They're ADI 2 pro looks interesting.

I have a FF400. It's old. In fact, it was binned by the engineer who was using it. Didn't work anymore on his Windows box, so he bought a Steinberg UR824. Cheaper than a board replacement for the FF400.

When I tested it, it was dead. That was, until I connected it to an old G4 laptop for testing the FW port. It came back from the dead. I couldn't figure out why it would work on the G4 and not on any Intel based Mac. So I tested again. It worked...

Don't ask me why, tho.

I've tested it on one Windows 8 machine. Still dead.

Go figure.

The ADI pro looks very good. Haven't held one in my grubby fingers tho.

If I was to buy RME today, it would be a USB to ADAT box. 32 in, 34 out. Relatively cheap and I have 6 or 7 ADAT boxes around...

cyrano, post: 460405, member: 51139 wrote: I have a FF400. It's old. In fact, it was binned by the engineer who was using it. Didn't work anymore on his Windows box, so he bought a Steinberg UR824. Cheaper than a board replacement for the FF400.

When I tested it, it was dead. That was, until I connected it to an old G4 laptop for testing the FW port. It came back from the dead. I couldn't figure out why it would work on the G4 and not on any Intel based Mac. So I tested again. It worked...

Don't ask me why, tho.

I've tested it on one Windows 8 machine. Still dead.

Go figure.

The ADI pro looks very good. Haven't held one in my grubby fingers tho.

If I was to buy RME today, it would be a USB to ADAT box. 32 in, 34 out. Relatively cheap and I have 6 or 7 ADAT boxes around...

Cool good stuff.

I'm still running Win 7 too. Have Win 10 on other machines. Sorta' hate it, but anyway, scroll to the middle of the page under the title:
Tested Windows Thunderbolt 3 Computers
https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215731443-Apollo-Thunderbolt-Windows-Compatibility

I'll agree to that, Chris. The difference is mostly in filtering design.

But we have been unable to determine which one sounded better, in most cases. We all can hear tiny differences, but there is no agreement on the best sounding setup.

IMHO a lot of these tiny differences are related to different impedances. There's always something in front of and following the ADDA.

Impedance usually goes unnoticed. An example: I have an old Tascam mic pre. An unusual beast, as it has a +/-25 V PSU, in stead of the usual +/-17V. When I just got it, I wasn't impressed at all. It sounded "meh". I kept it. Recently, I tried it again, to see if I'd finally throw it out. It sounded very good.

What's the difference? The interface I tried it with, years ago, has a lower impedance and it's not balanced. The RME I use today, is a bit higher and is balanced.

I've seen this with other gear too. And sometimes it results in the internet killing gear reputaution. A clear example is the Alesis DEQ830. If you check the net, it's the worst EQ around. It is, when you don't RTFM. And apparently, nobody bothers to RTFM these days. The reason it doesn't do well, again is that balanced/unbalanced thing.

Alesis even put a big fat warning text about it in the manual. To no avail...

And the same goes for cabling. Put a cable with some capacitance and a bit of resistance on some gear, and you'll notice. The same cable on other gear won't get noticed.