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Speaker/Listening Position in This Odd-Shaped Room?

Hi all,

Just wanted to post a measurement diagram of my room and see if anyone can help me with where I should place my monitors and desk for best listening position? I know a fair bit about room acoustics and have a well treated room at home, but while I'm at college my room is shaped like this, somewhat oddly. If it helps, my ceiling is just under 8 feet. Also, the desk as pictured is to-scale.

I am currently using Yamaha HS5's but may very well switch soon to Focal CMS65's or CMS50's with sub (good or bad idea / which of these two?)

So, what would be the best mixing position here?

Thanks,
-Josh
Attached files

Comments

DonnyThompson Tue, 01/16/2018 - 16:39
Hi Josh.. hmm...that's a different shaped room than most we see...I'm not saying it's bad, though. I really don't know...
Have you done an acoustic measurement of your room?
If so, what does the graph or waterfall plot display show?
Is there any treatment currently in place ( bass traps, panels, clouds, diffusers)?
Maybe I missed it on your drawing...what is the height of your room?
It would help to have that info... ;)
-d.

JoshHPMusic Tue, 01/16/2018 - 17:11
DonnyThompson, post: 455098, member: 46114 wrote: Hi Josh.. hmm...that's a different shaped room than most we see...I'm not saying it's bad, though. I really don't know...
Have you done an acoustic measurement of your room?
If so, what does the graph or waterfall plot display show?
Is there any treatment currently in place ( bass traps, panels, clouds, diffusers)?
Maybe I missed it on your drawing...what is the height of your room?
It would help to have that info... ;)
-d.

I had mentioned in the original post, the ceiling is just shy of 8 feet.

I currently only have one 24" x 48" 2-inch thick rigid fiberglass board panel from my studio at home, plus a big bed that offers some baffling/absorption. I'm only in this room for about another 4 months, and likely don't really plan on treating it more, unless that would really be worth it.

Basically I wanted to see if I could get more of a theoretical opinion on the best spot for a pair of near fields in this room. Any position is up for grabs. Also, would CMS50's w/ a switchable sub be better in this room than CMS65's?

Kurt Foster Tue, 01/16/2018 - 17:27
looks to me like you've already picked the best placement for the desk. i would assume the monitors will be on a bridge on the desk.

the way you have it pictured, places you in the middle of the room and avoids firing the monitors into compression. i think it's the best you can do given the way the room is shaped.

i wouldn't try to put a lot of low end in the room though. it's just too small. check out quarter wave lengths for a low B note on a five string bass to confirm this for your self. for accurate low end below 80hZ., you need at least 14 feet in the smallest dimension (usually the height of the ceilings). the lack of any bass trapping and your unwillingness to add them only exacerbates the problem.

JoshHPMusic Tue, 01/16/2018 - 18:33
Kurt Foster, post: 455101, member: 7836 wrote: looks to me like you've already picked the best placement for the desk. i would assume the monitors will be on a bridge on the desk.

the way you have it pictured, places you in the middle of the room and avoids firing the monitors into compression. i think it's the best you can do given the way the room is shaped.

i wouldn't try to put a lot of low end in the room though. it's just too small. check out quarter wave lengths for a low B note on a five string bass to confirm this for your self. for accurate low end below 80hZ., you need at least 14 feet in the smallest dimension (usually the height of the ceilings). the lack of any bass trapping and your unwillingness to add them only exacerbates the problem.

Lol, I actually didn't intentionally place the desk anywhere in that picture- just dropped it in there for reference!

Can you recommend a specific placement though? e.g. How many inches from the front wall, facing which direction, centered?

And it sounds like maybe the CMS50's could be a slightly better option here as they may have less low end problems when sub is not in use?

Kurt Foster Tue, 01/16/2018 - 21:04
a lot depends on how the measurements for the Focals were done. how far are they down for the frequencies quoted? 12dB? 6dB? 3dB?

i would guess either set would be fine. 55 Hz vs. 45 Hz. an extra 10 cycles won't be a deal breaker. you don't need a sub in that room is all i was saying. besides that you say yourself you're only there for another 4 months.

JoshHPMusic Tue, 01/16/2018 - 21:19
Kurt Foster, post: 455107, member: 7836 wrote: a lot depends on how the measurements for the Focals were done. how far are they down for the frequencies quoted? 12dB? 6dB? 3dB?

i would guess either set would be fine. 55 Hz vs. 45 Hz. an extra 10 cycles won't be a deal breaker. you don't need a sub in that room is all i was saying. besides that you say yourself you're only there for another 4 months.

Yes, I believe those low end specs are at -3db.

Still, can anyone recommend a specific place to put my desk in this room?

Thanks

pcrecord Wed, 01/17/2018 - 11:14
I'll give it a go, even if I'm no expert.
Looking at the picture I would place the desk in front and in the center of the 11.3' wall. The distance depends on how the monitors disperse sound regarding to wall proximity.
Choosing the 11.3' wall puts you between 2 parallele walls that are at equal distance but not equal lenght. So it would be very important to put absorbtion on that small 4.3' wall and back to the 7' wall so the sound don't reflect to your back with different time.
Of course the best thing is to build yourself some bass traps to match the one you already have. A rug in the middle of the bigger part of the room would also help.

The 7' wall could have been a good place to put the desk too.. but it seems to thight for my taste. You could place an electronic drum there instead...

So that's my idea, I'm ready to be corrected. As I said, no expert here...

Kurt Foster Wed, 01/17/2018 - 12:13
ok i'll correct you ....:LOL: if he sets it up that way he's firing the monitors into compression. monitors should be firing into the direction of the room that is getting bigger, not smaller.

the way it is pictured is perfect. in the middle of the area that is 11'3" X 9'3". if i had that room long term i would wall off the back part or at least hang some heavy drapes with fluffy pink stuff behind them across the entire 11'3" behind the monitors. free standing office partitions would help as an alternative.

DonnyThompson Wed, 01/17/2018 - 13:02
Centering won't solve problem frequencies, but at least it gives you the advantage of having the frequencies that are bouncing around the room hitting your ears at roughly the same time. I think your best bet is where you just happened to place it in your diagram. Take your measurements and find equal distances from all boundaries to your listening position. It may not be perfect, and there may be other issues in the room that would require actual treatment methods, but it's better than jamming yourself up against a wall. Centering also provides better placement for your monitors and gets them away from walls, too.
You may want to consider hanging a cloud directly above your mixing position. These are very light and can be used in whatever other spaces you end up moving to in the future. Not expensive, not heavy and not hard to install...but it could make a noticeable difference for mixing, especially since your ceiling height is under 10 feet.
FWIW

JoshHPMusic Wed, 01/17/2018 - 13:40
Ok- so would being in the middle of the room like that be better facing the f***ed up section or the flat 11' wall? Or could I face the longest wall from about 2 feet away?

Basically,
1. If I face the longest wall, I'll have side reflections from about 6' to either side from the speakers, but with about 2.5 feet in front of me and about 8.5 feet behind me.
2. If I face the f***ed up section, then I've got side reflections 3.5' on either side of the speakers, with about 10 feet right side 3 feet left side in front of me, and 6.5 feet behind me.
3. If I face the 11' wall, then that's side reflections again about 3.5' on either side of the speakers, and with 3 feet in front of me, 13 feet behind on the left, 6 on the right.

I guess it kinda comes down to whether I should be prioritizing side-reflection mitigation vs. front reflections vs. back reflections. Also, I can understand not being right up against a wall, but I don't really want to be smack dab in the middle of the room like that because it screws up my room layout. Plus I will soon have CMS 50's or 65's which are front-ported. Mind you, there's a full size bed in here that I will either place along the 9' wall, or near the 7' far wall.

Kurt Foster Wed, 01/17/2018 - 13:49
i get impatient with this kind of thing. you asked a question, got an answer and now you don't like the answer. there's no reason to make a 5 page thread out of this. the room is unsuitable in the first place. there's only one possible "best" way to set the room up and you don't want to do it. there really isn't a good answer to the problem you pose.

putting it anywhere else is just going to make more problems / issues. to boot you don't want to use any treatments. so just set up your bed room how you want and then stuff your audio gear wherever you can get it to fit. then you can come back and make a post on why your recordings don't sound right.

DonnyThompson Thu, 01/18/2018 - 03:20
JoshHPMusic, post: 455128, member: 46107 wrote: Kurt, please go away. Your answers have been unhelpful from the start. Right, like I'm gonna get rid of half of my room with a divider.
.
You haven't exactly been giving off a whole lotta warmth yourself, Josh. ;)
You can get mad at the way Kurt explained things...but his point about placement is correct. You may not want to be in the center of the room, but you asked what would sound best, and that's the best answer. You didn't start your post with, "please tell me where I can put my mixing position - just not in the center because it will screw up the flow of the room"...
You asked what the best listening position would be, and three of us told you, based on our many years of experience, both individually and collectively, where we thought your best placement was.
You're only going to be able to do so much here, because of the shape, size and height of your room, Josh.
Yours is not an deal situation by any means. You are taking a bedroom and attempting to turn it into a mixing space, and home rooms are notorious for acoustic issues - because they're not built for pro audio use. Its not like we're just making this stuff up, man. You asked a question, we gave you the best answers we could... If you don't like the answers, that's not our fault.
On another note...have you thought about placing your gear against a wall so that the room is completely open - but using a pair of very good pro-grade headphones to mix while you are in this temporary location? It's rare that I suggest headphone mixing to anyone, but there are times where mixing with monitors will present problems... If you do decide to try headphone mixing, do your research and find a pair that are pro grade. I'm not referring to typical $100 models...
Anyway, it looks like this thread has gotten played out. We've told you what we feel to be best. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what to do. ;)
-donny

pcrecord Thu, 01/18/2018 - 04:53
JoshHPMusic, post: 455128, member: 46107 wrote: Kurt, please go away. Your answers have been unhelpful from the start. Right, like I'm gonna get rid of half of my room with a divider.

Now here's a fancy diagram: Which option is the absolute best? I need to know.
I know we are talking about home studio level here. But for us old timmers, aiming downward is not an option. There is a trend of cheap everything going on and most of us don't want to be part of it. I want the best sound quality and the ideal environement to monitor it.
There isn't any pro studio designer who will go and say '' Well let's make a L shape room it will sound better'' No it ain't happening.. ;)
So to me the absolute best would be finding another room !! ;)

So back to your question. Since there isn't any ideal positionning and you're not to buy a new building for your home studio. I would consider the option 5 putting your desk in front of the 7' wall. That way the reflections will come equal from each sides. I'd consider putting gobos behind you or at least some absorbtion to the rear wall to avoid bouncing sound in the bigger part of the room.

In the end, with a bit of motivation, you could setup in a different spot once a week and see how your mixes are been affected. Choose by ear instead of guessing.. no ?

DonnyThompson Thu, 01/18/2018 - 06:37
pcrecord, post: 455145, member: 46460 wrote: I know we are talking about home studio level here. But for us old timmers, aiming downward is not an option. There is a trend of cheap everything going on and most of us don't want to be part of it. I want the best sound quality and the ideal environement to monitor it.
There isn't any pro studio designer who will go and say '' Well let's make a L shape room it will sound better'' No it ain't happening.. ;)
So to me the absolute best would be finding another room !! ;)
Amen.
Novices often have expectations that aren't realistic. There seems to be a constant grain of "that'll do", or a mistaken hierarchy of importance. There are things that are important, that do matter, but that so often get overlooked by those who are new to the craft...
It's almost a certain mindset that constitutes an attitude of "________ can't matter all that much.."
Your recording/mixing chain will only ever be the quality level of the weakest link.
Whether it's a cheap mic, cheap pre, cheap conversion, or yes, even the room you are working in, it all matters, and it all adds up eventually.
The OP needs to do what he thinks is best for his situation.
He's already shown disdain for a few good ideas, like setting up dividers or free standing treatment, so at this point I don't think he wants the help that he has asked for, and which has been replied to professionally and intelligently.
I wish him luck. :)

JoshHPMusic Thu, 01/18/2018 - 09:44
DonnyThompson, post: 455140, member: 46114 wrote: You haven't exactly been giving off a whole lotta warmth yourself, Josh. ;)
You can get mad at the way Kurt explained things...but his point about placement is correct. You may not want to be in the center of the room, but you asked what would sound best, and that's the best answer. You didn't start your post with, "please tell me where I can put my mixing position - just not in the center because it will screw up the flow of the room"...
You asked what the best listening position would be, and three of us told you, based on our many years of experience, both individually and collectively, where we thought your best placement was.
You're only going to be able to do so much here, because of the shape, size and height of your room, Josh.
Yours is not an deal situation by any means. You are taking a bedroom and attempting to turn it into a mixing space, and home rooms are notorious for acoustic issues - because they're not built for pro audio use. Its not like we're just making this stuff up, man. You asked a question, we gave you the best answers we could... If you don't like the answers, that's not our fault.
On another note...have you thought about placing your gear against a wall so that the room is completely open - but using a pair of very good pro-grade headphones to mix while you are in this temporary location? It's rare that I suggest headphone mixing to anyone, but there are times where mixing with monitors will present problems... If you do decide to try headphone mixing, do your research and find a pair that are pro grade. I'm not referring to typical $100 models...
Anyway, it looks like this thread has gotten played out. We've told you what we feel to be best. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what to do. ;)
-donny

First of all, I should have you know that forum drama is my favorite type of drama.

Secondly, he came along, and basically gave me no information by telling me to place in the randomly selected, non-centered position that was shown in the original diagram. I then asked for more information as to why, exactly how far from which walls would benefit me most, and got a non-reply that did not even attempt to answer any of that information. And then instead of just leaving when he had nothing more to contribute, he comes back and gets all grumpy like a forum grinch.

Anyway, I already stated that I will only be in this room for 4 months. Additionally, I will likely not be doing a ton of mixing during this 4 month period anyway. Perhaps my question would have been worded better, "where should I place my monitors for the fewest problems in this room?", which then would have required you to think critically about whether short side reflections, corner bass trapping, front or rear reflections, or uneven stereo reflections would be most detrimental to my mix and listening abilities. That would have been a helpful answer.

To your point about professionalism and intelligence, I do not think simply quoting one's previous two-line response quite suffices when offered a follow-up question.

pcrecord, post: 455145, member: 46460 wrote: I know we are talking about home studio level here. But for us old timmers, aiming downward is not an option. There is a trend of cheap everything going on and most of us don't want to be part of it. I want the best sound quality and the ideal environement to monitor it.
There isn't any pro studio designer who will go and say '' Well let's make a L shape room it will sound better'' No it ain't happening.. ;)
So to me the absolute best would be finding another room !! ;)

So back to your question. Since there isn't any ideal positionning and you're not to buy a new building for your home studio. I would consider the option 5 putting your desk in front of the 7' wall. That way the reflections will come equal from each sides. I'd consider putting gobos behind you or at least some absorbtion to the rear wall to avoid bouncing sound in the bigger part of the room.

In the end, with a bit of motivation, you could setup in a different spot once a week and see how your mixes are been affected. Choose by ear instead of guessing.. no ?

I know there's plenty of gear out there that is quite sub-par, mostly things in the sub-$300 range, but ff you haven't noticed, the trend of things getting cheaper has mostly been a very very good thing for us home studio owners. It is possible to get a good interface, good set of mics, and everything else you need to record for less than $1000, TOTAL. Remember when many of these things costed more than that ALONE? As it turns out, with just a small amount of craftsmanship, it is becoming even easier to produce QUALITY audio gear for a very low price, due to modern production techniques and supply & demand. Heck, even Behringer and Line 6 are making good products now!

Just cuz it ain't analog or $$$ doesn't mean it's no good. It really makes you look like a guy past his time trying to justify his gear.

In the end, I know this room isn't ideal. No duh. And I will use Room EQ Wizard to test a couple listening positions. All I'm asking is some advice on how to make the best of what I got here. And to get some real information.

Kurt Foster Thu, 01/18/2018 - 10:03
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: First of all, I should have you know that forum drama is my favorite type of drama.

it's pretty obvious to me that what you want Josh, is attention (drama), not information. you said your self you are only in that space temporarily and you aren't willing to do treatments. yet you seem to expect us (who by the way are here to help on our own time and not compensated in any way other than the satisfaction of trying to pass on a lifetime of experiences ...) to spend the next 4 months that you are there in a thread where you reject advice given and then insult people who try to help you.

the reason i placed the desk where i did is it is the furthest from any walls and it is the most symmetrical placement possible in a less than ideal situation. if you are not willing to do as advised then just put it where it fits, perhaps somewhere where it won't be in direct sunlight.

audiokid
please lock this puppy up. better yet, delete it. jeeze what a little jerk.

audiokid Thu, 01/18/2018 - 10:36
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: I know there's plenty of gear out there that is quite sub-par, mostly things in the sub-$300 range, but ff you haven't noticed, the trend of things getting cheaper has mostly been a very very good thing for us home studio owners. It is possible to get a good interface, good set of mics, and everything else you need to record for less than $1000, TOTAL. Remember when many of these things costed more than that ALONE? As it turns out, with just a small amount of craftsmanship, it is becoming even easier to produce QUALITY audio gear for a very low price, due to modern production techniques and supply & demand. Heck, even Behringer and Line 6 are making good products now!

Just cuz it ain't analog or $$$ doesn't mean it's no good. It really makes you look like a guy past his time trying to justify his gear.
And on the other side of the forum we are talking about the Arrow.

I reflect years ago... see myself sitting in my mixing room using the world class Pro Tools 24 system. I recall struggling at final mix and thinking the same thing as Josh.
Had I known better, had a better room in the first place, I would have been able to hear how to mix the shit gear quality better and also know the difference between those who know and those who are repeating what they want to believe.
I don't think anything about room acoustics has changed in 2000 years. And there is a reason some things cost more than others. If you can't hear accurately, you will always be guessing and arguing.

Kurt Foster Thu, 01/18/2018 - 11:08
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: I know there's plenty of gear out there that is quite sub-par, mostly things in the sub-$300 range, but ff you haven't noticed, the trend of things getting cheaper has mostly been a very very good thing for us home studio owners. It is possible to get a good interface, good set of mics, and everything else you need to record for less than $1000, TOTAL. Remember when many of these things costed more than that ALONE? As it turns out, with just a small amount of craftsmanship, it is becoming even easier to produce QUALITY audio gear for a very low price, due to modern production techniques and supply & demand. Heck, even Behringer and Line 6 are making good products now!


where to start? so much wrong with that. no way can you get a decent start on a good recording rig for less than 1000 bucks. perhaps what you think is decent but then, there you go ...... :rolleyes: and this is what's so wrong about all this self recording and cheap gear. a bunch of little smart ass know it alls spouting off.

i want to note that not only have you insulted me in the first 2 pages of this thread but now you've turned on Marco with this gem.
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: Just cuz it ain't analog or $$$ doesn't mean it's no good. It really makes you look like a guy past his time trying to justify his gear.
audiokid,
Come on Chris, lock this up please?

JoshHPMusic Thu, 01/18/2018 - 19:47
Kurt Foster, post: 455156, member: 7836 wrote:
the reason i placed the desk where i did is it is the furthest from any walls and it is the most symmetrical placement possible in a less than ideal situation. if you are not willing to do as advised then just put it where it fits, perhaps somewhere where it won't be in direct sunlight.

See, this is what I've been asking since the first post you made on this forum. So thank you for finally clarifying.

There's a reason I didn't ask, how I should treat my room, I was simply asking to see if anyone could comment on which placement would fare best against common room problems, based on measurements and room layout. And I stated that I will not be in this room for long and won't even be doing a whole lot of mixing.

If you can't understand the question you are not obligated to answer. Or keep responding, for that matter.

Kurt Foster, post: 455162, member: 7836 wrote: where to start? so much wrong with that. no way can you get a decent start on a good recording rig for less than 1000 bucks. perhaps what you think is decent but then, there you go ...... :rolleyes: and this is what's so wrong about all this self recording and cheap gear. a bunch of little smart ass know it alls spouting off.

And this is where you're dead wrong. There are two camps of people in the world; those that think they constantly need more/better gear to get better recordings, and those who can make good recordings with whatever tools they have. Now, I can't say I'm not guilty of playing both sides from time to time, but I sure as hell think that Hendrix would still sound like Hendrix on a $150 Chinese Strat and that Chris Lord-Alge could record and mix a hit record from a $1000 home studio- heck, this has actually become common with modern pop music today!

I'm not saying that room treatment doesn't matter- it matters more than most gear these days with the quality you can get- but I'd rather spend more of my time focusing on using my tools right to make damn good music than to say "bah humbug" and constantly cry about my AD converters not operating at peak voltage.

Next year I will go all out with treating my room (different room) so that I can avoid blind spots and anomalies a little easier. Also, FYI acoustic treatment also does not need to be expensive. I can get 24 panels of rigid fiberglass board and DIY the fabric/mounting for less than many companies charge for a SINGLE panel! And yes, it really is the same stuff.

Kurt Foster Thu, 01/18/2018 - 20:20
JoshHPMusic, post: 455177, member: 46107 wrote: If you can't understand the question you are not obligated to answer. Or keep responding, for that matter.
so despite your private conversation with Chris, you continue on your tantrum of jabs and insults? if you had read my responses a little more carefully in the first place you would have seen the part where i said,

"the way you have it pictured, places you in the middle of the room and avoids firing the monitors into compression. i think it's the best you can do given the way the room is shaped."

it shouldn't need clarifying unless you're incredibly dense. it's not rocket science. i don't see what's so hard to grasp. btw, that's not the best solution, it's the only one. anything else is going to provide less than desirable results due to slap echoes uneven reflections and bass nodes and nulls.

JoshHPMusic, post: 455177, member: 46107 wrote: There are two camps of people in the world; those that think they constantly need more/better gear to get better recordings, and those who can make good recordings with whatever tools they have. Now, I can't say I'm not guilty of playing both sides from time to time, but I sure as hell think that Hendrix would still sound like Hendrix on a $150 Chinese Strat and that Chris Lord-Alge could record and mix a hit record from a $1000 home studio- heck, this has actually become common with modern pop music today!

so i am supposed to take what you say seriously because why? how many records have you made? how many records you've made were sold to record companies or are available commercially? i agree that Hendrix would probably sound better than me on any guitar but i can also be pretty sure he wouldn't want to play a $150 Strat if he could avoid it. there's plenty of pictures of Jimi playing cheese slicer guitars in his early years but the second he could he started playing real Strats and Gibsons.

as far as equipment, every snot nosed know it all novice who doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground had babbled that nonsense only to change their minds after working with the real stuff.

Josh you just don't know what you are talking about and in a few years after you have gained some experience, you will be embarrassed by the things you've written here today. stop digging the hole, you are making yourself look like the assh*le you are acting like. a good start would be an apology to Marco /pcrecord and yes Josh, we all know about 703 fiberglass. nothing new about that. we've been on that stuff like white on rice for over a decade 'round these here parts. do you know about bass trapping? not absorption but trapping? and how about diffusion? i've forgotten more than you know currently.

audiokid, why did you unlock this? more of the same sh*t.

audiokid Thu, 01/18/2018 - 20:43
Kurt Foster, post: 455179, member: 7836 wrote: audiokid, why did you unlock this? more of the same sh*t.
He's learning Kurt. He PM'd me with a positive reason to open this so I felt he deserved the right to respond to the responses. Its not hurting us to have debates or to be challenged even though we know when someone is not getting it all in one shot. No disrespect but calm down and maybe we can help more, maybe not. Or just ignore the thread.

JoshHPMusic Thu, 01/18/2018 - 20:44
Kurt Foster, post: 455179, member: 7836 wrote: so despite your private conversation with Chris, you continue on your tirade of jabs and insults? if you had read my response a little more carefully in the first place you would have seen the part where i said,

"the way you have it pictured, places you in the middle of the room and avoids firing the monitors into compression. i think it's the best you can do given the way the room is shaped."

it shouldn't need clarifying unless you're incredibly dense. it's not rocket science. i don't see what's so hard to grasp. btw, that's not the best solution, it's the only one. anything else is going to provide less than desirable results due to slap echoes uneven reflections and bass nodes and nulls.



so i am supposed to take what you say seriously because why? how many records have you made? how many records you've made were sold to record companies or are available commercially? i agree that Hendrix would probably sound better than me on any guitar but i can also be pretty sure he wouldn't want to play a $150 Strat if he could avoid it. there's plenty of pictures of Jimi playing cheese slicer guitars in his early years but the second he could he started playing real Strats and Gibsons.

as far as equipment, every snot nosed know it all novice who doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground had babbled that nonsense only to change their minds after working with the real stuff.

Josh you just don't know what you are talking about and in a few years after you have gained some experience, you will be embarrassed by the things you've written here today. stop digging the hole, you are making yourself look like the assh*le you are acting like. a good start would be an apology to Marco /pcrecord and yes Josh, we all know about 703 fiberglass. nothing new about that. we've been on that stuff like white on rice for over a decade 'round these here parts. do you know about bass trapping? not absorption but trapping? and how about diffusion? i've forgotten more than you know currently.

audiokid, why did you unlock this? more of the same sh*t.

Dude, I think you're reading into my responses too much when they don't really qualify as insults. They're opinions. You seem like a pretty hot button guy so I'll try to be more selective in my word choice.

My opinion on modern affordable gear is not only my own, but what I've observed from many of the mix engineers and renowned creatives that I and many others respect most. Also, this scenario has changed vastly over just the past 7-10 years. Five years ago I bought a Line 6 interface that came with POD farm. It sucked. Preamps sounded weak and inaccurate, and the guitar modeling software was absolutely horrible. Today, I have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP that was under $300 and has absolutely NOTHING wrong with it. Clean, transparent pre's, visible accurate meters, etc etc etc. I just got a Line 6 Helix LT for $800 that I can get to sound really close to the real amps that it offers. But if I wanted I could easily get away with some free plugin modeler on a song and nobody would know the difference. Many of these tiny details are not audible within a mix and after production has been done.

Anyway, my point is that I'm not trying to offend you or your years of life here and on this forum, but to get you to clarify on your reasoning for your answers. And to express the gratitude I have for living in an age when anybody can affordably make great music. At this point the skills are more important than the money. If you have a $20,000 mixing board, but don't have the musical/writing/mixing/marketing skills, why would I or anybody want to listen?

Kurt Foster Thu, 01/18/2018 - 21:08
JoshHPMusic, post: 455181, member: 46107 wrote: Dude, I think you're reading into my responses too much when they don't really qualify as insults.

i don't need you to tell me if i have been insulted or not. lol. especially when you've completely missed my telling you to stick your equipment up your ass. :ROFLMAO:
Kurt Foster, post: 455156, member: 7836 wrote: the reason i placed the desk where i did is it is the furthest from any walls and it is the most symmetrical placement possible in a less than ideal situation. if you are not willing to do as advised then just put it where it fits, perhaps somewhere where it won't be in direct sunlight.


Josh, have you ever even used a large format console? how about a real Neve pre amp or a Millennia or an ISA? what about a real LA2A or an 1176? not plugs but the real ones? (i won't even mention mics. )

pcrecord had a Saffire (yuch!) and he thought it was alright until he bought an ISA. boy did he do a turn around .... it was like, " Wow! Now I know what you guys were saying."

i used to think the same as you back before i got to get in a real studio. in my naivety, my goal was to prove to the world i could make recordings impressing everyone with my magnificent skill set on cheap gear.

then,
i got a chance at working in a real studio with a Trident console and as i brought the first fader up to get a level on the kick drum it was like "WHOOOA! NOW I GET IT!" it was a true epiphany for me. in a way, you may be fortunate. with a little luck, perhaps you will get to have that experience someday. but you're going to have to loose the 'tude dude.

audiokid Thu, 01/18/2018 - 21:38
Kurt Foster, post: 455182, member: 7836 wrote: i used to think the same as you back before i got to get in a real studio. in my naivety, my goal was to prove to the world i could make recordings impressing everyone with my magnificent skill set on cheap gear.

then,
i got a chance at working in a real studio with a Trident console and as i brought the first fader up to get a level on the kick drum it was like "WHOOOA! NOW I GET IT!" it was a true epiphany for me. in a way, you may be fortunate. perhaps you will get to have that experience someday.
Same.

Mine was with older Pro Tools. Paid $20,000 for a system I believed was everything people raved about. Then I got better converters and preamps and a new DAW and went. "WHOOOA! NOW I GET IT!"

After that day I spent the next 10 years trying to keep from sounding like I was bragging, trying to share and save people all the needless expense and frustration I went through.

JoshHPMusic, post: 455183, member: 46107 wrote: You surely won't like where music's going from here on out then- and I'm hopping on that train!

Where is it going?(y)

audiokid Thu, 01/18/2018 - 21:55
This thread is fun. And all in fun I say with the intent to make you think and realize we aren't just old farts around here, here is where its been going for me lol!

And you certainly do not need all this either ... I'm sure I would be happy with even the new UA Arrow but... there is a difference in sound quality.


pcrecord Fri, 01/19/2018 - 03:52
Kurt Foster, post: 455182, member: 7836 wrote: pcrecord had a Saffire (yuch!) and he thought it was alright until he bought an ISA. boy did he do a turn around .... it was like, " Wow! Now I know what you guys were saying."
You quoted me right Kurt. The saffire 56 I have is now a heaphone amp in my setup. Not only some preamps broke within a year, even when brand new it sounded cheap compared to an ISA.
The ISA is build like a tank and gives me 80db without noise.. I very well know there are better preamps on the market but that was my first highend gear and it opened my eyes (should I say my ears) ;)

The thing is, we are trying to explain the colors of the sun to a blind boy who things he knows everything. Ear trainning takes years...
I've done all the mistakes possible over the years and this one will too.
The first one is to try to convince us that good enough is a recipe for success in this world where too many apply and just a few gets to the top...

DonnyThompson Fri, 01/19/2018 - 04:41
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: Just cuz it ain't analog or $$$ doesn't mean it's no good. It really makes you look like a guy past his time trying to justify his gear.

I'm curious to know if you've ever had the chance to work with nice gear.
It's easy to say " that sounds really good" about budget gear if you've never had the opportunity to compare it with pro level gear. To you, the cheap gear sounds "good" - or, from what I've inferred from your statements - "good enough". I'm pretty confident that your opinion would change if you had the occasion to compare the cheap gear to the expensive gear you feel to be unnecessary.
If, on the other hand, you have worked with high level gear in the past, and you can't hear the the differences between it and the budget gear you are advocating or justifying? Then you should probably consider another craft.
You can say that Kurt ( @kurtfoster ) didn't provide you with any advice, but he did, as did Marco (pcrecord) ... Kurt mentioned things like room nodes and frequency reflections. Marco gave you advice on where to place your listening position. Both suggested implementing stand alone absorbers and dividers... To which your response was "yeah, like I'm gonna put a divider in the room" as if that was the worst idea you ever heard.
You mentioned that you were going to be in the room a short time - four months - but it wasn't until several posts later that you mentioned that you weren't concerned with doing "serious" mixing during that time. None of these little tidbits were in your initial post. They trickled out gradually as the thread grew.
You can be as steadfast about cheap gear as you want, to mixing in mediocre conditions and expecting pro results, and, you can even get as pissy as you want when people don't agree with you. But you're not gonna learn anything that way. Keep doing what you're doing, your own way, and stop asking for help if you're just gonna shake your head and consider us All to be out of touch and not worthy of giving advice.

DonnyThompson Fri, 01/19/2018 - 05:05
JoshHPMusic, post: 455183, member: 46107 wrote: and I'm hopping on that train!

audiokid, post: 455184, member: 1 wrote:
Where is it going?(y)
To a little town called Mediocrity.
And it's a booming town , too.
Its population grows exponentially, as each new entry invests a whopping $200 into a "pro" recording rig.
The Mayor of the town is Bob Whateverworks... and unlike most mayors, he gets along swimmingly with
the city council, which is made up of luminaries like Jane Thatlldo, Joe Knowitall,
and Howard Spendsnothing.
That's where that train is going, Chris. ;)

pcrecord Fri, 01/19/2018 - 06:35
JoshHPMusic, post: 455181, member: 46107 wrote: At this point the skills are more important than the money. If you have a $20,000 mixing board, but don't have the musical/writing/mixing/marketing skills, why would I or anybody want to listen?
You forgot, acoustic knowledge, mic placement, ear training, learning of how the tools work and when to use them.
You sure do need marketing skills to sell a service anyone can do themself for the same 200-1000$ (if it's what you want to do, sell recording services, right ?)

JoshHPMusic, post: 455181, member: 46107 wrote: Anyway, my point is that I'm not trying to offend you or your years of life here and on this forum,
Saying that doesn't undo what you said and the tone you still continue to use...
You beg to reopen this thread but still are not open minded to listen to advices.
Why can't you just admit, better gear can sound better. I can understand that if you do music with VSTi you can do it on any cheap gear.
But recording is about sound moving in the air, being grab by a mic and produce acurate or inacurate recording depending on each part of the signal path.
I will respect you if you say you are content with consumer level recording gear because it fills your needs and expectations.
Trying to convince me that quality gear doesn't mather just discredit you, perhaps it doesn't mather to you because you don't hear the difference but I do.
I've been at it for 35years. I'm here because I'm passionnat about audio recording. I learned and still learn alot from RO and like to help.
Are you willing to learn ? (takes hard work and dedication)

DonnyThompson Fri, 01/19/2018 - 07:01
JoshHPMusic, post: 455153, member: 46107 wrote: Just cuz it ain't analog or $$$ doesn't mean it's no good. It really makes you look like a guy past his time trying to justify his gear.
Funny...you appear to be doing the exact same thing...only at the opposite end .. attempting to justify why you DON'T spend money on gear that actually DOES make a difference. So, okay, we get it...you're obviously not very serious about it, and there's not a thing wrong with that. If you just want to have a good time recording your own stuff, then yeah, you're right, You DON'T need the pro level gear that you believe to be a bad investment. But stop saying that investing in high quality gear doesn't matter, and attempting to tell a forum of pros who take this craft very seriously that budget level gear can get you the same sonic results that pro level gear offers. And if you really do believe this to be true, then you've either never had the chance to work with great gear, or you have and you can't tell the difference. If it's the latter, then have fun with your hobby! :)

audiokid Fri, 01/19/2018 - 08:57
The term "support of purchase" has great meaning to me.
We dream about something, search to see if its possible, find all the right "support of purchase" answers on the web, save our pennies and purchase. Much like a marriage.

Then, before we know it, like a virus, we pass on the love and the moment someone tells us we just got zoomed, a thread like this happens.

The hard part is trying to be gentle to the newlyweds.

audiokid Fri, 01/19/2018 - 10:07
audiokid, post: 455199, member: 1 wrote: The hard part is trying to be gentle to the newlyweds.
Just cause she's pretty doesn't mean she's going to make your life easier lol. Chances are, its all make-up and an empty shell. You'll spend you entire life slaved to something that will never do what the front cover says it does lol.
x

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