As I have a pretty sizable investment in my Pro Tools rig allready, and have a real need to improve the internal mix quality, I will probably bite for the upgrade. I have been selling off interfaces a little at a time and am looking at non Digi 96K converters to replace them with. I will do some testing first to see if the internal mixing actually has improved in sound quality. If not, I will be selling off my 32 channel Pro Control and going back to a console of some sort.

I love working with Pro Tools especially with the Pro Control, but have grown disapointed with the sound of my mixes. This seems to be an issue that gets talked about to death on these forums. I really hope Digi has been paying attention to what a lot of people have been saying here and on other sites and don't sum up our comments to just a few disgruntled people who are full of shit. The competition is closer in the DAW market now and the only way for Digi to remain the leader is to offer something that blows everyone out of the water sound wise. If they do, then a lot of people including myself will make the jump even if it is another sizable investment. If not, I think a lot of folks will really be looking hard at Nuendo and other systems available at much less cost. I can live with the Pro Tools feature set as is, but I won't continue on without an improvement in sound quality.

Hope the jump doesn't hurt too much.

Kenny Meriedeth
Melted Media Music

Hi Jon. The first post I ever put up was on Digi's Pro Tools forum. Entitled "Pro Tools ships 96khz, what will you do?"
The issue for me is that IMHO Digi has no choice but to do this. So many other manufacturers are shipping 96kHz, to not do so would be a brave gesture but possibly Coporate suicide.
There are points for me:
1. In terms of backwards compatability....good luck!
2. Price structure: Digi will bolster it's price by all accounts, a too bigger rise I don't think would be wise..but wisdom is a bit short changed in this area.
All this has stopped me from investing in a Pro Tools rig till we hear something. And of course, this is likely to be a new system, so it will be bug free right?
I'm sympathetic to Digi however, re Apple's new OSX and the short shrift given to Digi. One of my other postsqueried why no brilliant reverb for Pro Tools - Quantec seem to think it's because of Digi's "non-professional" attitude to copy-protection, in fact Quantec decided to go with Creamware (!) rather than Digi on this, so maybe there will be a change in this, otherwise limited commitment from reverb plug-in manufacturers at least.
In terms of resisting it and staying at 48kHz froma business point of view, see my comment re backward compatability.
Kind regards

Hi Jon. The first post I ever put up was on Digi's Pro Tools forum. Entitled "Pro Tools ships 96khz, what will you do?"
The issue for me is that IMHO Digi has no choice but to do this. So many other manufacturers are shipping 96kHz, to not do so would be a brave gesture but possibly Coporate suicide.
There are points for me:
1. In terms of backwards compatability....good luck!
2. Price structure: Digi will bolster it's price by all accounts, a too bigger rise I don't think would be wise..but wisdom is a bit short changed in this area.
All this has stopped me from investing in a Pro Tools rig till we hear something. And of course, this is likely to be a new system, so it will be bug free right?
I'm sympathetic to Digi however, re Apple's new OSX and the short shrift given to Digi. One of my other postsqueried why no brilliant reverb for Pro Tools - Quantec seem to think it's because of Digi's "non-professional" attitude to copy-protection, in fact Quantec decided to go with Creamware (!) rather than Digi on this, so maybe there will be a change in this, otherwise limited commitment from reverb plug-in manufacturers at least.
In terms of resisting it and staying at 48kHz froma business point of view, see my comment re backward compatability.
Kind regards

I only just finished paying off a home equity loan that was mostly from my initial transition to Pro Tools about 4 years ago. Currently I have two 888/24's, two new Mix cards and one original farm card in a G4 tower, with a ton ofplug-ins I store/back-up using Retrospect on DDS-3 tape.

Now, I'm assuming Digidesign will offer a hardware upgrade path involving trade-ins of older interfaces and farm cards. But historically, the transitions still always cost a big chunk of change even with trade-ins.

Even more important, do I really want to double (or more) the size of all my files? Do I want to be storing (and constantly downloading and uploading from DDS-3) CD projects that are 20-40 Gigabytes a pop? And how about the cost of all the plug-in upgrades?

Call me a Luddite, but I'll stick with 24/44.1 stereo for a while longer. Eventually the market and/or my ears may force me to make the transition - just as eventually I may have to invest to be able to mix in surround formats. But I'm in no rush to be the first one on the block.

I can always fantasize that there may be a niche demand for "vintage" ProTools systems.

the short answer for me is: YES.
I'm designing a studio that intends on being up by this summer and I also currently own a Mix+ rig. the new studio needs to have a better sounding format than PT now is. So unless they do upgrade I'm going to have to add a Radar and a Sony digital board to the equation and relagate PT to the side as a specialty item.
I won't be able to upgrade my sytem immediately, but that's allright. If they go 96k this spring that will simplify things for me. I can go Procontrol with the euphonix converter/nvision clock setup I'm puttin' together (with an insane analog front end including a 2" w/microlynx[word clock support])

BRING ON 96k+

The New PT will actually be announced Thursday December the 13.

It will be more expensive.

It will have dual processor support.

It may be 192khz.

Great stuff, guys.

The clients & freelancers I know are not in a hurry to move to 96/192kHz for tracking...though buying the new PT may be a great marketing tactic for the pioneering, well-off studios who want to announce that they are on the leading edge.

On the other hand, the PT internal processing has been a big issue among engineers (though not many other folks), and one that Digi has consistently denied up to now. I am curious to hear if they are now going to be acknowledging it.

Jon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jon Atack:
[QB]Great stuff, guys.

The clients & freelancers I know are not in a hurry to move to 96/192kHz for tracking...though buying the new PT may be a great marketing tactic for the pioneering, well-off studios who want to announce that they are on the leading edge.

I agree, that is probably the case for many people. I'm not exactly "rushing" to buy into 96kHz myself,
and littledog's reasons stated above are good ones.
However too many products are already there, some a bit well I wouldn't say dishonestly, but when you buy a 24 track unit and it only gives you twelve at
96kHz?
With Pro Tools it will be an untried sysytem, so you wouldn't want too many bugs or questions about sound quality.
But spare a thought for Digi. From Australian "Macworld" Dec 01:

"Mountains of code.For applications to run natively under Mac OSX, developers must rewrite large portions of them..."

""Microsoft developers had to port 25 million lines of Office code to OSX."

Apple is currently not exactly supportive of "own platform" formats such as Pro Tools, in fact on a corporate speak level,it is apparently quite hostile to them, preferring to force the issue of it's own HAL system as being "the industry standard".

On littledog's comments also, yes remember many of the "venerable" revered old gear was stuff meant to have been replaced by better, more "professional" standards. So maybe hang on to those Apogee 2000's.
People may want that late nineties/early Millennia sound for a while yet...but they'll want the new stuff too.
kind regards

Originally posted by Jon Atack:
On the other hand, the PT internal processing has been a big issue among engineers (though not many other folks), and one that Digi has consistently denied up to now. I am curious to hear if they are now going to be acknowledging it.

I can just hear it now.

"You know that problem that never existed that every last one of you complained about? The one that forced you all to mix on SSL's and Neves? That one, you know. Yeah. Well anyway, it's fixed now." And then the wiseguy in the back stands up and yells "You lied about it not existing in the first place! How do we know you're not still lying?" And another wiseguy yells "Their mouth is open! That's how!" Then Digi pulls its pants down and says "Assume the position!" And then we all bend over like good little sheep. Right?

(I'd put the smiley face here to show you I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not exactly smiling about it.)

Baaaaaaaaa! :( :mad:

"I really hope Digi has been paying attention to what a lot of people have been saying here and on other sites and don't sum up our comments to just a few disgruntled people who are full of shit"

Hmmm, scary thing is that perhaps Digi's biggest clients are film / post folks, and that are known to care more for speed of operation over sound quality. Most of the Digi folks are musicians, so privately they must blanch at the critisim...

So.. this may leead to any new system being proclaimed 'super top quality' - capable of 192k sample rates and therefore V F expencive...Out of reach for many..

Central to the problems with internal mixing quality was the naieve belife that 'digital is perfect' just ones and zeros..

Once run from bus to bus and then the complication of running through various non Digidesign plug ins - a sound in the PT mixer CAN easly become mangled, and the finger should be pointed at:

Digidesign? - Possibly but they didn't make the plugs you are using...

The Plug in makers? Did we fall for manipulation over sound quality? - probably

Ourselves - for falling for the big sell? - (remember the oohs and aaahsss from folks the first time they moved a mouse on a Focusrite plug in? ) Probably

Finaly some decent sounding plug ins have been made - Bomb Factory & Sony.. Raising the bar for the future..

Hopefully plug in guys are aware that a new system for PT might highlight the need for them to rise to the new audio challenge.. Certainly their part in the sound of PT in 2002 will be crucial.

People rave about the sound of Radar but Radar isn't an automated mixer with a zillion 3rd party bells and whistles...

Meanwhile the positive points:

PT users have invested their time in learning to use the platform and it has been a real hit with music clients

The absolute session reset continues to be an awsome feature

Chops learned getting digital to sound as best it can (on PT) are surely not wasted?

TDM rigs can be improved by using the Sony EQ (and compression when it comes ou)

Who fucking knows!

:)

I want & need something better than the current PT, to be honest I will make do with Sony EQ & compression fuck all the other plug in toys.

Please - Record playback EQ & copmpress the shit I send to it and I will be happy (patch out for reverbs whatever...)

Rant over

Originally posted by Julian Standen:

People rave about the sound of Radar but Radar isn't an automated mixer with a zillion 3rd party bells and whistles...

Rant over

Hi Jules,

I know you're a big PT guy, but are all the bells and whistles more important than sound quality? Maybe if the software sounded great, you wouldn't need all the extraplug-insetc. to make up for the problems.

I know you saw the Fairlight Dream stuff at the AES, and are convinced that it is not musician friendly, but I disagree. I have been working on numerous music projects with our Fairlight, and it sounds great. Why settle for inferior sound quality?

(Good one, Ang).

Rumor has it that the new PT will be in the neighborhood of $50k...with a 'pro' remote like a 3348 or A820.

Kenny and Recorderman, at $50k are you guys still jumping on the bandwagon?

Jon

Originally posted by Jon Atack:
(Good one, Ang).

Jon

Yes. If at all possible. I'm up to about $130K right now in proposed budget on just the Analog Front end...still less than a new SSL,Neve, ect...let alone a tape machine...we'll see

...If i could only win a lottery and spend the rest of the time with my children I'd be REALLY happy..until then...working & dreaming....

Originally posted by RecorderMan:

...If i could only win a lottery and spend the rest of the time with my children I'd be REALLY happy..until then...working & dreaming....

Man for that kind of money, you should really have a look at The Fairlight stuff.

Mark

Originally posted by Jon Atack:

Rumor has it that the new PT will be in the neighborhood of $50k...with a 'pro' remote like a 3348 or A820.

Jon[/QB]

50K YIKES!!!!!!!

It will be interesting to see how much of a "discount" Digi will offer to existing TDM users. Maybe we'll only have to spend 45 grand!

If I were digi, I'd be releasing BOTH a 96k/48 track native version of LE and a cost-no-object 192k dedicated hardware system for the high-end.

In other words, I'd cover the high-end of the low-end for individuals and the high-end of the high-end for major facilities with interchangeability at the sample rates the native system was capable of.

Nikon followed this product model for years with great success.

Maybe it's because I remember previous major Digi upgrades; PT24 and PT5. Particularly with PT5, the romour mill got more and more frantic and the discussions more and more heated, right up to the day that Digi finally announced the features set of PT5.

We've still got a couple of months to go and I don't think the DUC and other message boards will reach fever pitch until the new year. My advice is to stay cool and to view all the speculation with a heavy dose of sceptism and maybe a wry smile on the lips! There's no point in getting your knickers in a twist until Digi actually announces the features/price of the new version.

From past experience we'll get some of what we want but not everything and there will be a number of surprises which no one has predicted.

Greg

"Hi Jules,
I know you're a big PT guy, but are all the bells and whistles more important than sound quality? Maybe if the software sounded great, you wouldn't need all the extraplug-insetc. to make up for the problems."

AND

"I know you saw the Fairlight Dream stuff at the AES, and are convinced that it is not musician friendly, but I disagree. I have been working on numerous music projects with our Fairlight, and it sounds great. Why settle for inferior sound quality? "

---------------------------------

Responce:

Well, the fairlight isn't ready yet, the desk in the ad's was not at AES - only the central transport controller.. So that was a bummer...
hey I WAS THERE, trying to check it out!

PT trade in or new 'other' system, I need the quality boost..

Those Fairlight demo guys were poor... BTW

What I was getting at was that Radar doesn't have an internal mixer & automation like PT..

Cant wait!

:)

:confused: Jules... Um, gotta work on the quote thing mate.

Originally posted by Henchman:

Mark

I was just qouting the analog front end...won't scrimp on that...that's where the real sound is captured, and it doesn't get better after that.

Here's my two cents. It's only my opinion.

"...I'm sympathetic to Digi however, re: Apple's new OSX and the short shrift given to Digi..."

I'm not. Everybody's been whining about getting a "modern operating system" (protected memory, multithreaded, etc.). Now they have one!! They've known about this for a _long_ time (1998 and before). The Mach kernel and BSD, which OSX is based on, have been around for a very long time. I have no sympathy for Digi or Adobe or Macromedia, or any of the others that are whining. On the positive side, although Digi is very slow about new stuff, their new stuff usually works _very_ well and is super stable. I would rather Digi take their time and get it right like they usually do!

"...Mountains of code. For applications to run natively under Mac OSX, developers must rewrite large portions of them..."

Comes with the territory. It's a completely different OS. As far as the HAL goes, I hear that Apple will provide hooks. Besides Digi has dealt with the HAL in Win NT/2000. I'm sure they'll do a great job with OSX!

"...Microsoft developers had to port 25 million lines of Office code to OSX..."

I think this says more about Microsoft Office than it does about Apple, doesn't it? :D

I hope Office X comes with one of those cool secret shoot-em-up games that shipped with Office 97 (Win)!! :D

Ciao,

D.