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anonymous 8 August 2006

Dave this is your fault.

Alright guys. in reference to ehh-- uhhh ... theres no way around it.
BEHRINGER.

Many on this site are very displeased with this company.

I just need a reason or two why theyre so terrible. Theyre very wallet-friendly and I ask because Im in the process of getting a T1953 - mic tube pre. And I'm currently recording with a Behringer mixer.

Is it bad components? High signal/noise? I NEED ANSWERS!

o and which IS a good mic preamp? Just one or two within the 200-300 dollar range maybe?

Slim.

Comments

pmolsonmus Tue, 08/08/2006 - 18:59

The trouble with B is:

1. Little or no quality control
2. inexpensive parts used wherever and whenever possible - see #1
3. Questionable business practices including direct ripoffs and reverse engineering of other manufacturer's products
4. Questionable manufacturing practices including alleged labor issues on their Chinese lines.

Does this mean that their equipment is all bad. In a word... No.. However their practices have the potential to put more ethical manufacturers out of business and that is why their reputation is fouled. If adding another 10% to the cost of an item supports a company who doesn't operate that way keeps that company in business then I wholeheartedly pay the additional $.

I have seen examples of 1-3, re: #4 I have no first-hand knowledge.

Phil

RemyRAD Tue, 08/08/2006 - 19:06

I have friends that have a fair amount of Beringer's equipment. His stuff is certainly financially attractive, never mind what the FCC thinks about it, they'll fine you if they see your titty on TV. Go figure?

The problem with his stuff like most stuff that is affordable these days is the use of surface mounted components and the quality control from China. If something fails, it is more costly to repair it than to replace it. So consider all of it disposable?

He claims excellent specifications but I find some of his stuff is a little noisier than Mackie but then I find that Allen and Heath is noisier than Mackie so in this case, it's perfectly adequate stuff but just adequate. It's as good as your capabilities can deliver. Their stand-alone microphone preamplifiers for $200 isn't horrible either but none of his stuff would be at the top of my list except on a very limited budget. His innovative ideas are basically to steal others innovative ideas which is nothing new.

If that recording you posted earlier was recorded with Beringer's equipment, I'd say you obviously are getting good results and when you find something that works for you, don't reinvent the wheel.

2 wheelin' to Skyline Drive tomorrow
Ms. Remy Ann David

anonymous Wed, 08/09/2006 - 08:19

I use a bunch of their gear, and I've never had any problems to speak of. The bottom line is, if it works and it's not a critical piece of equipment (like, say the PC and/or hard drive)... then who cares if it breaks 5 years down the road. I have 3 dual channel compressors from Behringer that cost less than a single compressor from some other companies... and although I don't use them all the time, I like the results I get and I don't feel I'm missing many features.

Yes, they rip off other designs. That may make them "wrong", but so is Microsoft. I personally am not bothered by that, but I can see why some other people may be. So those other people can pay 3 times as much for that peace of mind... and I won't argue.

In a sense, it's all opinion. The same thing goes for guitars, cars... just about any product. Everyone values things differently.

One Behringer product I love to death is the Ultracurve Pro:
http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

I'm not going to describe the whole thing here... but it makes life so much easier. I use that daily and have not had a single problem. That may be part of why I have "faith" in Behringer.

moonbaby Wed, 08/09/2006 - 10:25

This person mentioned a specific product, the Behringer Tube mic pre. There was a post earlier this year on this very unit, and it was disclosed that the unit doesn't heat up the tube!!!! What you are seeing is the tube being 'backlit' by an amber LED!!! And the LED is 'ramped' by the same power supply that feeds the phantom power! It's all just so much BS!!!!
If you can give us a bit more info on your application(s) of the pre, we can steer you towards something more useful. I have some 'B' gear that got dumped on me by a client who went bankrupt. None of it has any headroom, the controls are funky and noisey, and compared to a $150 box from dbx, their compressors are a joke!
If you need a basic pre and a little dynamics control at a price that is still under $250.00 or so, look at the dbx 286a mic processor. It is a pre, a compressor, a de-esser, a gate/expander, and has some EQ, to boot.
Once you get going with REAL GEAR, you'll never look back!

moonbaby Wed, 08/09/2006 - 10:27

This person mentioned a specific product, the Behringer Tube mic pre. There was a post earlier this year on this very unit, and it was disclosed that the unit doesn't heat up the tube!!!! What you are seeing is the tube being 'backlit' by an amber LED!!! And the LED is 'ramped' by the same power supply that feeds the phantom power! It's all just so much BS!!!!
If you can give us a bit more info on your application(s) of the pre, we can steer you towards something more useful. I have some 'B' gear that got dumped on me by a client who went bankrupt. None of it has any headroom, the controls are funky and noisey, and compared to a $150 box from dbx, their compressors are a joke!
If you need a basic pre and a little dynamics control at a price that is still under $250.00 or so, look at the dbx 286a mic processor. It is a pre, a compressor, a de-esser, a gate/expander, and has some EQ, to boot.
Once you get going with REAL GEAR, you'll never look back!

pr0gr4m Wed, 08/09/2006 - 12:18

SlimCognito wrote: I just need a reason or two why theyre so terrible. Is it bad components...? High signal/noise?

Yes and Yes.

Not all of their products are terrible. I use their headphone amp and it does exactly what I need it to.

I guess you can look at it like this. Imagine asking a professional race car driver (NASCAR, F1, CART, etc) why he doesn't drive Hyundai either on the track or at home? Think of the answers he might give you and think of the reasons why. Sure, you could drive and race a Hyundai but a Ferrari, Porsche or dare I say a Dodge would probably be better. The same thing goes for Behringer. Sure you can record with their equipment, but you would be better served by using something else.

As for a recommendation, you may be able to find a used Brick from Groove Tubes.

Davedog Wed, 08/09/2006 - 16:34

I'm for ANYTHING thats a bargain. Something that is cheap and doesnt do its job is NOT a bargain.

Dont get me wrong, theres an Ultrafex Pro in the live rig ...but lately I'm starting to think its the weak link in the sound....it works every night its asked to. Thats 70 to 90 times a year. I like the dual 31 band EQ . But on the other hand if you can screw up a graphic then you aint in the right biz...

My earlier take was directed primarily at the mic pres....which...excuse my French, SuckMadly...And your mic is a nice one so get something deserving of its quality.

Now there's a bargain. That MXL Mogami edition mic. Worth the price.

B...word so-called TUBE mic pre.....Sad, very sad.

A budgets a budgets, and a guys gotta do what he can.....But research this.. There's a bunch of stuff that sound way better than that mic pre.. Hell, the Yamaha MG series mixers sound better and you can get 6 channels for under 200... A little patching imagination and it'll work.

I'm not advocating that this is your solution, only that there are many options. Try the search function. This question has been asked a million times....and that was just yesterday!

sheet Wed, 08/09/2006 - 23:15

OOOOH! OOOOH! Mr. Kahtah! OOOOH! OOOOH!

1. Behringer does not engineer anything. They backwards engineer as someone else said, and manufacture. They do copy some good stuff.
2. They use high tolerance components. They higher the quality gear you buy, usually the lesser tolerances accepted.
3. These tolerances mean inconsistantcy from piece to piece.
4. It looks like crap. What is it with these guys. Toyota can make a cheap car look good. Other MI companies make stuff look cool. All of their stuff looks the same, and their manuals suck too.

I used to beat the snot out of these guys. But you know, let everyone buy this garbage. I pray that every studio in Kansas City replaces their Neves and SSLs and Pro Tools and Studers with it. Because I don't have it, I have tone, I have headroom, I have high S/N, and I will have the business.

anonymous Wed, 08/09/2006 - 23:30

having used behringer products along with other companies products for about 7 years, and owned about 14 behringer devices (about 4 of them have been sold and are still in working order), I have to say i am often puzzled by the horror stories presented about them. Not that i dont believe them, but i have had nothing but good experiences with them.

In the beginning of my time as a recordist, I really couldnt afford stuff -- so i got a behringer mixer, truth monitors, V-amp2 --

later some of my behringer stuff was replaced when i had the money to do so, Emu1820m, Presonus Firepod, instead of a mixer going into the computer -- PODXT instead of the V-amp2... however, if it werent for those inexpensive behringer products, i wouldnt have recorded my first album.

And i still use the truths -- i havent found anything I like better, yet, in the sub 1000 dollar range (im still not rich).

I have the mic200 tube pre. The tube is indeed used in its signal path. However, it is of course the whole starved plate thingy. But the tube IS used in this case. And, i feel the casing get awfully hot when i leave it on for a while.

Who knows...

I can only give my experience.

as far as its business practices, I dont really have proof to justify me not supporting them.

so, just a shallow bit of experience from someone who has used behringer..

and wow, as a newcomer i find it funny that people cant just say "behringer" hehe.... and have to say "the B word"

;)

anonymous Thu, 08/10/2006 - 06:40

You can't get mad at reverse engineering... you just can't. It discredits your argument. Two reasons:
1) It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the gear. There is no argument with that. It doesn't mean your gear will spontaniously combust because a company stole an idea from someone else.
2) It's a lame argument because almost everything you buy has been reverse engineered, and used reverse engineering to create it. I work in an industrial design firm, and all day long you chop apart the competitor's equipment and see how they achieved the result. If you can steal it and it works, you do. It's hardly Behringer's fault, they just don't hide it.

If you think they suck at engineering and use bad quality components... that's one thing. Say that. But don't say "they steal ideas", because it's mud-slinging with no justification.

Is there better gear? You bet your a$$ there is. Tons of better gear. But why go out and spend $500 on a nice compressor that you might use twice? If you need extra stuff to fill the rack up that you might use on slight occasion, some of the compressors are the way to go. The EQ's are pretty solid as well. And generally I can pick a dual channel compressor up for about $80 in new condition. Hard to argue with that.

Vocal work... sure, you want a smooth, pricey unit that is solid all the way through. There's no way that I'd suggest using a "B" comp. for that... but it can be done.

I suppose I will poke around the other forums for this... but I'm actually looking for suggestions in the compressor area right now. I need a second compressor for vocals, just so I have 2 options. What preamp/compressor would you folks see as good quality, decent price, easy enough to get your hands on... etc.?

moonbaby Thu, 08/10/2006 - 07:02

Just for the record, the producer who posted the disclosure about the tube in the preamp maintained that it is indeed NOT in the signal path. And a voltage-starved tube is no better than an overdriven FET, in terms of harmonic content, even IF it is used in the audio path.
If you want that kind of cheap tube sound, check out the Studio Projects pre....if Harvey Gerst can use it....
And I, for one, DID offer an inexpensive alternative-a dbx product. Not very glamorous, but it will out-perform anything Uli B* passes out his...

Cucco Thu, 08/10/2006 - 11:17

Well...let's clarify - they don't really "Reverse Engineer." That means that they would actually take devices apart, figure out how they work and create their own, similar device. What they actually do is take someone else's schematic, send it to a PCB printer and use LOWER QUALITY parts than the original to make their products.

I've measured 31 V coming out of their supposed 48 V mic pres - that can easily damage certain mics or DIs.

Also, as previously mentioned, they use HIGH tolerance parts - resistors and such with 10 to 20 percent tolerance. Higher quality pres an other devices will use parts with 5% or even <1% tolerance parts (usually devices with 1% tolerances or less are fairly pricey as enough resistors and capacitors with this level of tolerance will cost a pretty penny.)

What this means is that, your compressor which you're using to compress your stereo drum bus may show 3:1 ratios on both sides, but in reality you're getting 2.2:1 on the left and 4.1:1 on the other side.

Not to mention that there is simply not enough voltage passing through the pres at a high enough or fast enough rate to give you any chance at headroom. Although, I guess that's a bonus - think - you'll get a mic pre and a compressor in one. :lol:

J. 8-)

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