Ok I think this is the place to put this. Our set up, mic-EV N/D 767a, mixer-Behringer UB802, sound card-Zoltrix Nightingale Pro (its a $35 sound card), PC-windows with Audacity.
We are just trying to record my wifes vocals to some CD tracks for demo purposes. I know its all cheap stuff, so we are thinking about doing an upgrade to get better sound quality. Should we go with a Studio Projects VTB-1 mic preamp or a M-Audio Audiophile 2496, they are about the same price. And I am thinking the mic preamp would be the biggest upgrade we could do, is that correct thinking?
Comments
Not that these links help, but here is the card: Link removed
Not that these links help, but here is the card:
Link removed
http://www.zoltrix.com/products/audio/8SB87386CHGMX.htm#
The recordings we have made, do have a little noise to them, not that much though, wish is was 6dB or so less then what we have, but its usable. I imagine its a little bit of both the card and mixer. Now is there digital hash from the converters? I don't know. More hash then a m-audio solution? Yah, probably. Whatever we don't go with, we should be able to do after Christmas anyways.....then we want a LDC.......then.......
It's none of the above problems or suggestions that will correct
It's none of the above problems or suggestions that will correct what you need.
You need to purchase a hardware compressor to plug-in after your microphone preamp and before it goes into your cheap soundcard, lying input.
A nice limiter/compressor like the old UREI 1176, LA 3, LA 2, and 4 on my first choices but they are extremely expensive.
I have gotten excellent results with cheap ones from Alesis to DBXs.
Having or a compressor/limiter is a virtual necessity (virtual, not applying to your software) is generally mandatory for recording vocals.
After digging around on ebay, and other sites, the DBX 266XL see
After digging around on ebay, and other sites, the DBX 266XL seems like something we could fit into our budget. Anything wrong with the 266XL? The only hardware comperssors that I have worked with are from Symetrix and Behringer. I do know DBXs reputation with dynamics processing, but haven't read much about thier lower end stuff. But I do have a DBX 231 EQ in my home theater, and love the sound of it, but that has nothing to do with their 266XL.
Hi If you can record at 24 bit you can get away with lower inpu
Hi
If you can record at 24 bit you can get away with lower input levels and remove the need for an inline analog comp. The 2496 will do that.
Loose the onboard sound card period.
That would allow you to buy the SP mic pre and the M-Audio 2496.
Once the signal is compressed there's no going back.
cheers
Roly
The budget oriented DBX 266 is nice for a small studio on a tigh
The budget oriented DBX 266 is nice for a small studio on a tight budget. Still has that DBX quality character.
Even though the previous posting indicates you can do without the compressor/limiter by going with other new stuff that has a higher bit and sample rate. That's still wouldn't matter to me. I am a firm believer in adding dynamics processing going to your track! If you're not experienced enough to make a technical decision before you record, then you're just not ready to record. Just remember, less is more. You can certainly over squish, which never sounds good.
Happy tracking!
An outboard compressor would be nice to have - sometimes. Now,
An outboard compressor would be nice to have - sometimes.
Now, back to the original question.
Start at the center - the beginning, as it were. Your recording space. This is the most difficult and most important part. This is the part that even big studios hire-out to a professional - though you can do well following suggestions from many sources, online and in magazines/books. Next. A decent computer, relatively modern with a "fast enough" processor and enough ram(See the "requirements" list for your chosen software and devices). The next step is a competent "sound device" - your sound card or interface. Without this "base", you can go no farther. Now! Start attaching the actual things you will use to record your sounds. Like a mic preamp/DI. Without a fairly good one no mic you attach to it will sound as good as it can. Follow this with a microphone of the type/quality you need/can afford. After that a nice pair of speakers will help you "know" what you've recorded and to do a good mix, which will transfer well to other sound systems. Follow all of this with lots of experience(Upgrading everything as budget allows or as individual pieces begin to limit you).
Waa-Lah! You are now a recordist!
Yes! You can keep things relatively inexpensive, but, as you suggest, the 35 dollar sound card, for instance, is one of those things that begs for upgrade... You should be able to put together a nice "demo" system for less than your computer cost(Unless you got a really good deal from QVC, or something?)... 1000 - 1500 bucks should do it - equipment-wise. The room? Little money but lots of your time and effort will help alot... The thing you need most is simply to "read-up" on this stuff. Mix Magazine, basic recording books, forums like this, etc., can be a huge help.
Another suggestion? One of the very portable(Pocket-size even!) "flash card" recorders with a nice Shure SM57 or 58 and a decent set of headphones. "All-in-one", simple, cheap(?). Transfer it's recordings to your computer for mixing/editing/burning. Your soundcard, itself and other inadequacies of your computer, will not then enter into the picture nearly as much. And, you can record anywhere that "sounds good"...
Teddy G.
I definitely think you can overlook the compressor. It's a nice
I definitely think you can overlook the compressor. It's a nice thought but a luxury for home recordists. The essential is definitely the soundcard. Investing in a mic pre just goes along with getting the new soundcard. I personally wouldn't wan't to track through the Behringer on it's own. but that's just me. You could get away with it though. If you've been settling for a substandard soundcard all this time, a proper card will make a world of difference.
Another suggestion - though this assumes that your "demo stuff"
Another suggestion - though this assumes that your "demo stuff" is, pretty much, one time(You're not writing a new song every week to send to someone(?), is to get your demo tunes together, go over them well with a competent accompainist and rent studio time at a "real" studio. Much cheaper in the long run in both money and time spent and likely much higher quality than you'll do at home.
TG
We are just recording along with CD soundtracks, no orginal musi
We are just recording along with CD soundtracks, no orginal music. This demo stuff, is for lets see 3 reasons. One a recording artist heard my wife sing at a womens conference and she wants a CD of my wife singing. This "artist" is thinking about bringing my wife on tour with her (this is small time, Chirstian stuff here), and this artist just wants a better idea about what my wife can do. Two we are thinking about handing out some of these CDs out for Christmas presents, yes we have or will soon have paid for the licensing to the music so we don't get in trouble. And three, my wife wants to hear herself so she can learn what works and doesn't work well.
We just started recording, and this PC I am using is my HTPC (home theater PC). I have only used the digital outs as up to a month ago. The Behringer was a stop gap measure for now. We needed a way for my wife to hear the music and hearself in her headphones and the Behringer provided that. And it will continue to do so once we have the pre-amp.
I put some stuff on ebay, so I should have enough money to buy the pre and the sound card. If we really need it, a compressor will come last I guess.
Thanks to all that replied, you have been a big help.
Ok we got the pre today, wow what a piece of crap that behringer
Ok we got the pre today, wow what a piece of crap that behringer is!!!!! Hehehehe, I already knew it, just didn't really know how bad it was till tonight. The Studio Projects VTB-1 sounds great, warmed my wifes voice up nicely, and I had the tube drive all the way to the solid state setting. Just recorded a couple times, so didn't play with the tube drive, but to me, for $90, its going to work wonderfully. I am sure that the sound card upgrade will bring that extra x% to the stew, but really I could live with what we have if I had too.
I just got to keep the gear lust in check, which with our money situations, isn't hard when you have no money to play with, but still in the back of my head, an AT-3035, a compressor, etc would be nice I guess :-).
We are getting the 2496 or the 1010lt this week. Not sure which
We are getting the 2496 or the 1010lt this week. Not sure which one, prolly the 2496 just for a cost reason, although the 1010lt would give me lots of room to add extra ins for recording multiple things in the future if needed. I have a nephew that plays drums, wonder if he would want anything layed down to a hard drive, hmmmm. But yes the sound card is first on my list.
Although one question, since I am currently using the digital out of my sound card would playback quality go up at all VS. the m-audio's digital out? My playback chain is computer digital out-->BK ref50 home theater pre/processor-->rane EQ-->Crown XLS 402 amp-->Klipsch THX Ultra2 mains/SVS PC-Ultra Sub-->first reflection points treated with acoustical foam (system was EQ'd by my brother inlaws laptop running SMART, 100-16Khz is +/-2dB)
As you can tell my mixing room is my home theater, we have been recording my wife in our "lobby".
While either of your chosen options should work very well, consi
While either of your chosen options should work very well, considering what you use now, just for fun, have a look at the Lynx cards(http://). More money, but even the L-22, is the "real deal", pro-wise and the options they offer are rather spectacular as you go up in price. Your home theater would scream with joy, having a Lynx setup! Nothing like "dual-purpose" money spent!
Check out their "forum", as well - access from the web site. The people who sell, design and build the Lynx stuff answer your questions directly - and fast(This phenomenal tech support is a BIG reason why pros use Lynx gear - even over and above their superb quality.)...
For the future, anyway..?
TG
Not to mull over the previous postings, but I firmly believe tha
Not to mull over the previous postings, but I firmly believe that a decent analog compressor will support your attempts at dubbing your wife's vocals over pre-recorded CDs. Especially since she is essentially an "amateur" (no offense- I'm stating experience, not talent!). A compressor will get you in the ballpark when you are trying to get the voice to mesh with the professionally-mixed music.
BTW, I love my old SC50 compressors....on guitar amps!
Try the FMR RNC or the dbx 286a voice processor if you are looking to improve the vocal track once you've gotten the soundcard issue updated. They will help you more than you might imagine at getting the vocal to "sit in the mix"...
If you are really on an extreme budget consider one of these and
If you are really on an extreme budget consider one of these and bypass the soundcard altogether:
If you have a small budget then here's a recipe for killer sound on a budget which will allow you to record great sounding vocals:
1. Soundcard for $200 with top notch D/A converters and a variety of other fantastic features. I've used this card extensively and can verify firsthand that the sound quality is excellent.
2. A pre-amp for your mic. Here you go, $50 with a real tube, phantom power, etc. And you can easily change the tube if you like for $10-20 (any good music store offers a selection) to really get the sound as warm as possible for her voice. Again this is a piece I have used extensively and can vouch for.
3. If you need a mic too then this will all come down to budget. There's lot of great mics around these days. You can even rent a top notch mic for the weekend for very little when you're recording stuff 'to keep". Anyhow here's a surprisingly decent mic for $200 with a free shockmount:
4. Unless your wife has a severe problem with dynamics the compressor is not necessary, it's a luxury. With just the preamp and card above you can get entry level pro quality sound with any decent mic. You can always compress using software and there are many good free compressors around. The fish filets are great sounding free plug-ins as are the Slim Slow Slider compressors. Anyhow here's the hardware compressor I use, it's only $200 yet pro studio grade. Ask any experienced engineer about the RNC, it's got a fantastic reputation. Check the gear lists at some top studios, they almost all seem to own a couple RNCs.
My recommendation to you is to make the Emu 1212m a Tube MP your first priority. I've used that combo extensively and I can guarantee you for $250 it's the finest quality sound you're going to get into for basic mic setup. Here's an audio sample of me singing and playing guitar through that very setup for your reference. This is through the AT4033 into the Tube MP (refitted with Groove tube) into the Emu 1212m. No compression or EQ has been added, pardon the crappy singing.
Here's the same setup used to track a couple guitar instrumentals. In this case I ran my guitar straight in through the Tube MP specifically just as a test to see if I could get a decent recorded sound. I was not disappointed, again no compression or EQ has been added here.
And last but not least here's the same rig with the RNC inline in a voiceover I recorded for a Flash thing I did a while back:
As you can see It's very respectable sound quality for $250 total. Anyhow best of luck. Look at it this way, as long as you're having fun making music, you win. Read some of the reviews on the Emu 1212m it's a favorite of prosumers everywhere. Bear in mind these are just my opinions and not intended to negate anyone else's opinions. Cheers. :cool:
Oops I just saw your last post, we must have posted at the same
Oops I just saw your last post, we must have posted at the same time. Oh well, I'll leave the post up for others. :)
Your MP3 sounds nice Tim, great job. The audio quality sounds very decent here in my little home studio. 8-)
You might enjoy checking out the de-esser/compressor/gate from the "Fish Filets" (Google) plug-ins collection. They are really good quality and free. Another thing which you might have fun experimenting with is "off axis" micing. I've found that for some vocalists it gives a more even response and can eliminate occasional sibilance. Also even when micing from in front changing the angle of the mic and whether it points directly at the mouth or just above/below will alter how much of the "head voice" you pick up.
One more "trick" which would probably sound good on your wife's voice is to send a copy of her vocal track to an FX track. EQ all the low end off this track and compress it very heavily then just mix it back in a tiny bit. It can often add a nice dimension to the lead vocal. If you do this in addition to double tracking th e lead vocal you can get some very large sounds. It's also sometimes good to add the reverb via a separate FX channel and EQ all the low end out of that as well. Quite often when I add reverb to a lead vocal I EQ all the low end out of the reverb track, it seems to help keep the bottom end of the entire mix tight. The human ear can't really distinguish the detail in reverb in the low range anyhow, so... 8-)
I did use a DeEsser, maybe not enough? Ya her S's kind'a sizzle
I did use a DeEsser, maybe not enough? Ya her S's kind'a sizzle don't they?
I will try the off the axis micing, have read about it, just haven't tried it yet, is 30-50 degrees off axis enough? Or should I try more?
And thanks for taking a listen, it helps hearing what others hear themselves.
Yep nice job, I'm no expert in micing but I find for a lot of th
Yep nice job, I'm no expert in micing but I find for a lot of the stuff I do that off axis works great. So I'm basically micing from slightly above and to the right pointed/angled toward the bottom lip or so, seems to work good.
It's not that you have a great problem on your hands or anything, just a matter of improving on it. Have you ever considered renting a tube mic for a weekend? It's pretty cheap and you might like the sound. Not strictly neccesary though. If you have a little patience and kepe experimenting with new ways of micing her singing my guess is that you'll find a sweet spot eventually that will work well for you all around. Cheers. 8-)
No time, at the moment, to go through all the posts, but, just i
No time, at the moment, to go through all the posts, but, just incase it hasn't been mentioned, have you tried:
Turning down the volume of your mixes - W-A-Y down, to like, whisper-level..?
Then listen to all parts(In this case, the vocal obviously the most important and you're not going to do much about other pre-recorded individual instruments anyway...). What I listen for is to make sure the vocal is not "covered up" or obscured by anything else... Words may, at times(Maybe for very short times?) "disappear" under an instrumental part(Particularly brass), often as the frequency of the instrument and the frequency of the vocal appear to match..? It sounds almost like a "cancellation" effect? Continuing to replay and turn up the vocal(Or other affected part) a bit at a time, until ALL the vocal is good.
CHECK THAT!!! After doing the vocal, turn off the music - period, and work on the vocal alone(Comp/reverb/EQ/limiting, etc. Get as high a level, overall, as possible - no distortion! Now, bring the music back in - listen at very low levels and just bring the music up so as to get through the entire piece without covering the vocal(s). Of course you can "gain ride" the music, turning it up when no vocal, down when vocal, whatever - but be very careful with that! It can be way too obvious. Try not to do it at all.
Sorry if my explanation is poor, just try to listen to your mixes at very low volumes(As just one more reference) -- I even turn off the speakers and listen to a pair of headphones sitting on a table in front of me - also at very low volume - "just" enough to hear the part I'm listening for...
Helps me,
Teddy G.
Of course: Your wife sounds great! What is her name? My wife dislikes me referring to her as "my wife" all the time... Likes to hear her name once in awhile(It's, ahhhh, Karen... yeah. My wife, Karen).
Calgary wrote: 1. Soundcard for $200 with top notch D/A conve
Calgary wrote:
1. Soundcard for $200 with top notch D/A converters and a variety of other fantastic features. I've used this card extensively and can verify firsthand that the sound quality is excellent.
:cool:
I was looking at which converters were used in different sound cards and found that the EMU1212 uses the same converters as Lynx (AKM AK5394.)
The Emu1212m is the best quality card under $200 as far as I'm c
The Emu1212m is the best quality card under $200 as far as I'm concerned. I just ordered the 1820m to add on to my 1212m and I'm confident it'll result in the quality I need. There's opamp and capacitor mods/upgrades out there on the net for the truly intrepid also to really tweak them. Anyhow the DACs are top notch, the tech guys who have taken them apart were very impressed with their componentry also.
Once those caps are bypassed, the 1212M is one of the fastest-sounding DAC's I've ever heard
Considering he's talking about a $200 piece of gear I think that speaks for itself. At the end of the day all that matters to me is reasonably accurate tracking and monitoring. As for the off-axis thing check out this picture of one setup, this guy has a weak ego and an unlimited budget, and this is what they went with for his vocals so you can bet it's a decent setup. (he's not wearing a lav)
All this stuff is the same crap from the same IC chip manUfract
All this stuff is the same crap from the same IC chip manUfracturers. Again U don't have to believe me but IT IS NOT WHAT U GOT IT'S WHAT U DO WITH IT. Cheap stuff is great if U know what U're doing with it. Everybody hear wants perfection and the ULTIMATE DB. Just remember the only perfection there is IS DEATH! It's the one thing U CAN'T change.
Shure SM7s and the little brothers, SM58 n 57s are GREAT mics and as good as U87s which are just made for U fools if U think U need one. (Michael Jacksons vocals where recorded on an SM7 produced by that "Q" fool and engineered by the big fat Swede, BrUce. What do they know that other FUULS on this foUm don't Know? ? A hUllava lot more than most of U ).
Just remember if U use Uor talent and ears with Uor brains YULE have a Great HolUday and recording!!
Remy Ann David :-?
with a Bachelor of U
from the U of FUULS University
You are wrong, it was an sm7 not 57: Bruce Swedien himself iden
You are wrong, it was an sm7 not 57:
Bruce Swedien himself identified the sm7 as his vocal mic of choice for Jackson on the thriller album in a Mix article. Do a search on rec.pro.audio, Harvey Gerst and Scott Dorsey among others all claim that the the sm7 was used for Jackson's voice.
So let's see here, which has more validity...Swedien, Gerst, and countless knowledgable others...or the shure website.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=121065
Vendor web sites mean *nothing*. Bruce Swedien, Harvey Gerst, and Scott Dorsey (amonsgt others) stating categorically that it was an sm7 and not an sm57 means everything. 8-)
Quivers most certainly does not use an SM57 nor do the guests, you're 0-2.
Calgary, that's what I said! Bruce used an SM7. I did not say
Calgary, that's what I said!
Bruce used an SM7. I did not say he used an SM57 or 58 which are little brothers to the 7 (open them up and take a look inside). But when I did talk to Bruce at the AES show two years ago, I asked him about the use of the 7 and his response was "sweet sounding microphone".
This from a man that also cherishes his M49s and M50s.
I believe U are having problems with the transducers on either side of your head? Or perhaps you need to get your head relaped? So start scraping it on a piece if Emory board on top of a piece of glass but be careful you do not take too much hair off in the process.
Happy Hollisdkjfawifghio days!
RemyRAD
who does know what's going on
Yeah right... :roll: Anyhow Swedien has used the U87 extensive
Yeah right... :roll:
Anyhow Swedien has used the U87 extensively, particularly for toms. Quincy also... 8-) Swedien's book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/8299675618/103-1513803-4775061?v=glance
Calgary wrote: The Emu1212m is the best quality card under $200
Calgary wrote: The Emu1212m is the best quality card under $200 as far as I'm concerned.
It does seem to be the best converters for the price. But if you search different forums around the net the 1212 seems to cause people a lot of problems. It seems to be a very finicky card, especially when you have other audio interfaces in the same machine. There is also a common issue with random clicks and pops that many people have not been able to fix.
I've read up *extensively* on the 1212m and overwhelmingly the v
I've read up *extensively* on the 1212m and overwhelmingly the vast majority of user experiences seem to be 100% positive. There may be exceptions but they are few and far between. Inter-operability between multiple audio cards in Windows is hardly an issue E-mu can control. No brand of card in existence boasts that claim.
I've had one for years, great card, never had a single problem. I've heard they suck for gaming though. 8-)
Well Calgary, you must be a real expert now at age 18. Of cours
Well Calgary, you must be a real expert now at age 18.
Of course, Bruce has used every microphone known to man and maybe some not known to man or women.
What are you saying?
I am saying all microphones good and bad are good microphones in good hands. Provided you know what you are doing which I doubt is true in your case? You probably make your decisions by looking at specification sheets.
You know it does not matter what kind or type of microphone, preamplifier and other stupid techno speak stuff you use as long as it is good for the sound you are trying to create, in your experience and opinion.
That is all.
Ms. Remy Ann David
audio professor at Gallaudet University
what, eh?
Well, not necessarily....... which is noisier, the soundcard or
Well, not necessarily.......
which is noisier, the soundcard or the Behr*nger mixer? I don't know that particular soundcard, but some of the really low-end ones will just cause you endless problems no matter what preamp you put through it. If you don't notice a lot of goofy noise and artifacts with your soundcard right now, then maybe the micpre is the way to go.