it's di, acting more like amp

http://www.tech21nyc.com/bassdriver.html

Hi

Sorry, I dont quite understand your answer. Are you saying that it is the DI BOX's fault.

Also, I love the Tech21 unfortunatly it is too expensive.

What bass and pickups do you have?
What kind of cable and how long is it?
What DI are you using?
What is your console?
What are the model numbers of your speakers?
What processors are you using and where are you crossing over?
Where do you place the subs?
Dual 15s are hardly ever good for linear bass, unless the 15s are crossed over independently, and well below 250Hz, because ALL dual 15s comb filter.

To be truthful, getting a "tight, powerful sound" doesn't come cheap. You haven't really given us the details of your speakers and amplification. That is the area of concern to deliver the goods.
What I believe that Groff was saying is that the DI like a Sansamp can deliver the tone of a good bass amp where a lot of DIs fail. That particular model imparts a bit of compression to the tone. as far as getting a "cheap" compressor, I would suggest a BlueMax (it is reasonably clean, and has an active preamp frontend) or, better yet, a FMR RNC. I have also seen a number of live bassists using the Aphex Punch Factory in their rigs. These seem to be popular with the Latin big band players I mix for, and these dudes have the chops! You can find used BlueMax's on e-Bay for under $100.00...is that cheap enough?
Anyway, if your 2x15" cabs are "budget" boxes like the JBL JRX, some Peaveys, Beh$#$%, Samson, etc., you are really taxing them with pushing bass in them. Ditto with cheap subs. And how much/kind of power are you putting to them? Are you bi-amping the system (seperate amps for the mains and subs)? Anyway, enlighten us a bit on the rig...

Hi Moonbaby

Thanks for that.

The speakers are JBL'S as well as the sub(which is also a 15"). The desk is a yamaha (dont know model but it is a 21 channel). The power amps are also yamaha (there are 2 500w amps).

I live in South Africa so it is really difficult to get hold of the smaller companies products like FMR.

This setup is for church so the budget is unfortunatly limited. Also, music products in South Africa are quite expensive and that is why the only option for us is the "cheap" option.

I realise that you pay for what you get but we dont really have a choice.

Another question: if we purchase a small 30w bass amp and the Line it out to the PA, would this create a better sound than a DI.

Thanks for the time.

Hi, Clinton:
I sympathesize with your situation. I believe that you would be better off with a "real" bass amp rather than trying to push the bass through the PA, but a small 30-watt bass amp will never be heard onstage if it's competing with drums and other instruments up there. You will end up cranking the volume up so much that the tone will be "farty" and unuseable. And, in all likelihood, you will still need the DI box hooked up to the Line Out because most small amps don't have a "real" XLR output, and if you are running a line to the desk and it's longer than, say, 6 meters (20 feet), you run into all sorts of nasty noise problems.
So, you have a bass, but no amp? I'd say put up with your situation for the time being, save up a bit more cash and pop for a more powerful (say, 100 watts with a 15" speaker) dedicated bass amp. You might still have to run it out to the board, but not nearly as "hard", so you can spare the house speakers some pain. And you and the others onstage will be able to hear you clearly enough to keep the rhythm "tight". In addition, the tone controls on such an amp will help you get the sound control you want. Patience, mi amigo, patience.
BTW, we had a president here in the States named Clinton...ever heard of him? :lol:

Hey Thanks Moonbaby.

I will try to see if I can get a couple a guys together and put in for a bass amp.

Maybe a Fender Rumble 100 or a Laney - what do u think.

Also I have a question about bEHRINGER BASS AMPS: are their products hated because of the actual bass amp SOUND or is it more because they cant take the wear and tear of a gigging band. If it is more the wear and tear then should I maybe look at them as the amp will never be moved off the church stage.....again what do u think.

Thanks again. Your input is appreciated.
Clint

Yeah I have heard of pres Clinton....Your ex Pres and my ex Pres (Mandela) are currently on the road giving support to the aids fight.

Well, the B%$^$& amps are just...toys, but so are a LOT of amps like those. They are simply cheaply-built gear that does not gig well, and the sound quality, in many cases, leaves much to be desired. Other amps to avoid include the smaller Ashdowns that, like the B$%# are made in China. The Fender Rumble will probably be a good choice. So would most
Ampegs, Hartke's, SWRs, and Peaveys. Peaveys are real big here in churches in the South. I don't care for their audio gear, but they have a good reputation for their guitar and bass amps. Their TKO is a popular model of bass amp. I have no idea as to pricing in your country, but Peavey strives to be the "best bang for the buck" here. Also, while I have no experience with Laney bass amps, I DO know that the reputation of their tube guitar amps here is horrible. Chances are, they are made by the same factory that the Beh%$^4 are made in...Unfortunately, many name brand British amps are now made in China to less stringent quality demands. This includes MARSHALL (some models), VOX, Laney,and Ashdown. Good Luck!

Affordable PA systems are designed to be loud, efficient and fairly bulletproof. The tradeoff is that they can't put out much bass in the deeper regions. At lower levels, things are fine, but the woofer excursion (and/or amplifier) runs out of gas.

One thing to try is putting a filter in the PA signal path to aggressively rolloff the bass frequencies below 50 Hz. If the filter is sharp enough, and properly adjusted, you shouldn't lose too much of the bass you are hearing now, but much less power will be wasted at high levels.

There are many ways to accomplish this kind of filtering without spending too much money, and a decent pro audio dealer can steer you in the right direction. Most garden-variety "equalizers" can't do this job, however, since their filters are not of the proper shape.

anxious wrote: Affordable PA systems are designed to be loud, efficient and fairly bulletproof. The tradeoff is that they can't put out much bass in the deeper regions. At lower levels, things are fine, but the woofer excursion (and/or amplifier) runs out of gas.

One thing to try is putting a filter in the PA signal path to aggressively rolloff the bass frequencies below 50 Hz. If the filter is sharp enough, and properly adjusted, you shouldn't lose too much of the bass you are hearing now, but much less power will be wasted at high levels.

There are many ways to accomplish this kind of filtering without spending too much money, and a decent pro audio dealer can steer you in the right direction. Most garden-variety "equalizers" can't do this job, however, since their filters are not of the proper shape.

I know many budget systems that are high power and have thunder bass. Too many variables in that one for me.

Having a friend from the country of the OP, I know that AC power quality can be iffy. If the power is iffy, the power amp performance will be off as well.

Sheet, fair enough. But, don't you think a filter to cut out signals below the response of the speakers would help in that case, too?

After all, pumping 20 or 30 Hz into a typical PA system is just going to tax the woofers, the power line, etc. The acoustical response will be almost nill for a vented system, and the speaker impedance will be very low, thus drawing extra current. 50 Hz is pretty low stuff for a basic live sound situation. For example, the JBL JRX125 is a decent dual 15" speaker, and is spec'd down to 45 Hz, (-3 dB).

Anyway, I know it is a complex issue, with many variables.

I personally find the JRX to be a poor representation of the JBL brand name. In my speaker repair business, I have found them to certainly NOT be "bullet-proof". Inspecting the innards reveals stamped frame woofers and a non-serviceable horn driver.
Anyway, there are other issues here. This bass player is trying to get his tone from the PA, not a stage amp. This not only taxes the house system (despite a subwoofer), but whatever stage monitors he has (if any) so that the band can "click". No bass on stage, no "click", and running bass through the typical monitors these rigs tend to have is gonna sound "mushy" and hinder the clarity of the vocal mix. I believe that Mr. Clinton needs to generate an appropriate level of bass onstage via an amp designed for that purpose. When the band can groove, so will the congregation! And the PA will be cleaner for it...

Moonbaby (is that legal?),

Thanks for the very articulate post. While I won't comment on the JBL's in particular, after a few reads, I think you nailed the issue: get the bass guitar out of the PA mix.

So where do you repair speakers, if you don't mind the question?

I have partial ownership in a repair/live sound business in NE Florida, north of Daytona Beach. I don't do too much of the speaker stuff, but handle the tube amp and live sound side of things. But I SEE what these companies are doing to put out cheap boxes, and am appalled. The JRX boxes are clearly using a stamped-frame Eminence woofer, plus the HF drivers are Chinese and have no way to replace the diaphragm! Now, I happen to think that Eminence makes a great product, and they keep getting better, but the models that JBL is using are not nearly as robust as the models that, say, Yamaha, is using in their Club Series. So I must be getting old and bitter. Sorry about the rant....Have a great weekend, guys!

Oh my! JRX is JUNK! They were not intended to be used as FOH mains, They were the poor man's background music speaker. That's your problem right there.

I guarantee the next problem is your bass. If you do not hahve the right wood, construction and pickups, you will never get real bass, no matter what you are playing through.

The following problem would be your fingers. The player = tone. I can put Billy Sheehan on a Fender P Bass and get that fart-like, almost fretless tone. Hand that same bass to "what's his name
in Tool, and hear it growl.

Moonbaby,

I hear you. I see a lot of speakers in the course of a week and, unfortunately, the JBL's are far from atypical. In fact, I would say that most bands would consider them positively aspirational.

Yeah, it isn't the good old days. But, at least the JBL's are actually engineered, and QC'd. Some other PA company's are basically buying drivers on the spot market, by frame size, and dropping into their cabinets with little more than a 4 uF cap on the horn....

BTW- are you sure those are Eminence woofers in there?

I have some things in common with your situation. I play in a church band (switched to keys in the last year, but did bass for the past five years.) I usually play through the PA with a Bass POD as a DI. I have a JBL Eon G2 that I use as part of a PA or as a standalone. One the other hand, I'm pretty much an old school R&B style player. I play a P-bass with flats. A nice thump in the low mids and enough volume to move people and I'm good to go. You don't say much about your style, but I know a lot of guys go for a piano like round wound sound for contemprary christian. If that's the case for you, my advice might not be much good.

At any rate, I am pretty much in agreement that the PA is probably the biggest part of the problem. Fixing it is pretty dependent on what is available locally. If the PA is doing the job on other full range instruments (like electric keys) then I'd look at the DI next. There are lower cost alternative like the sans amp bass DI, but watch out. You can throw a lot of good money away on a chain of cheap equipment.

As far as the bass itself, in my mind it's probably the least important part of the chain. I'm all for buying good instruments, but a cheap bass with a really good setup, good strings, and a decent set of pickups will sound good in the hands of a good player. Fancy wood is just guilding the lilly.

If you want your bass to be tight, phat, clean and big, turn the bass down, had a limiter and add some upper midrange. People will hear the bass if you stop trying to amplify "the bass". You can't hear bass, only feel it. You can hear midrange, so accentuate that.

I'm here at home bass
Ms. Remy Ann David

Hi All

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I think the first thing we will try to do is get a Bass amp. We are probably gonna go for the fender rumble 100. and then if we need a bit more volume we will line out to PA and at least that will put the PA under a lot less stress.

One question though: if the bass amp is on stage and is being used as the bass players moniter as well as the main sound source for the room, then wont the sound of the bass be too loud on the stage for the rest of the musicians.

Thanks again

You really shouldn't need to put the bass guitar through the floor monitors. It's not recommended. Tell the bass player to turn up his amplifier. You don't want to rely on the PA system to amplify the bass. Tell him to get a good amplifier with a good head that might feature a direct output to be used for " sound reinforcement" not amplification.

Going the wrong direction in the right way
Ms. Remy Ann David

Clinton:
Yes, there is the potential for the bass to be too loud in that the physics of low frequencies result in the bass notes getting louder as they travel in distance, within the confines of an indoor space. In other words, the bass can and will be louder in the congregation than it is percieved onstage. But this can be controlled very easily by a device that musicians hate to use...it's called the Volume control! You will need to learn the balancing act of stage vs house volumes. This is not hard to do for someone like you, who seems like he's not an egotistical rock star. But it is imperative that you learn to play with a "real" bass amp onstage and not rely on stage monitors to hear yourself. Like I said previously, those types of speakers were never meant to handle bass guitar, they are mainly designed to work with vocals, and low end instruments run through them sound muddy and can ruin the speaker components. Remember:"Friends Don't Let Friends Play Bass Through the Wrong Speakers"....

Hey Thanks everyone (Moonbaby especially)

I will be chatting with the guys in the music team to see if we can all chip in for an amp.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction

C

Hi All

Ok, we got a bass amp. Turns out someone in the congregation had a Fender 100W (dont know the model but it has a 15") just lying around.

so we hooked it up and it really sounded good (much better then the PA).

So a question: would we set it up at the far back of the stage next to the drummer. I ask because the amp sounds very different if you are not lstening to it straight on. So people directly in front of the amp will hear one sound and people to the side of the amp will hear another (less defined) sound.

Thanks All

clinton wrote: hI aLL

I would like to know if anyone has any suggestions on geting a good electric bass sound from a PA sytem. Basically the signal chain goes like this:
Bass -> DI Box(not bass DI) -> Desk -> speakers (2x15" and a sub).

What we are finding is that the bass gets lost sometimes during loud songs but is there in the softer songs. Also the bas sound is very WASHY, it's not a tight and powerful sound. Now I realise the setup isnt ideal but it's all the band have. I'm looking to get a cheapish compressor pedal to try to sort out both problems but was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions.

By the way the compressors I'm looking at need to be low cost so i'm gonna have to go with behringer (please dont hurt me!!) or Samson.

Thanks

Heita clinton

1) Get a decent bass amp. Ampeg SVT, Gallien-Kruger, that other double-barrelled name mentioned hereabouts, Hartke, etc. Problem: costa plenty $$. Mic it up and use the DI output as well. Do NOT use ANY Behringer bass amp. Or a Behringer rack preamp/compressor, not for bass. You could try their dedicated pedal bass compressor/limiter. Has same nasty cheap bubble-wrap package as the DI knockoff I refer to in solution 2. It may help for slap passages, it may be rubbish. I wouldn't bother with it, a bassperson should be able to control slap dynamics with his/her hands and pot trim anyway. Some of the Behringer rack compressors were designed by a talented dude who now works for RME and they may be able to handle the mid/upper range, vocals. Not bass. And as long as they actually work at all, that is...

2) Budget solution: Go to local music shop and get Behringer BD121 DI/amp sim combo box for about R350. It is a rip-off of the Sansamp Tech 21 and it is not as good but it gets the job done. Plug in bass: Precision, Jazz, Music Man, Yamaha or Made in China cheapo Ibanez for that matter. Route the DI output directly to XLR mic input on desk or alternatively to a cheapo Joemeek3Q mic preamp/compressor (using the compressor conservatively, as a makeshift limiter) and then take one or both the 3Q's TRS line outputs via balanced cables to the line ins on one or two channels on the desk. (The idea being that you can vary the channel eqs, one for bottom end and one for mids. Don't use the Joemeek eq, it is not totally terrible but there's no point unless you just want to cut or boost a little midrange). Or use the RNC compressor, again conservatively, just to control peaks rather than as an effect. There are much better mic pre/compressor solutions, like the Fatman for example, which has a built-in DI, or maybe that TC pedalboard thing with a laptop (theoretically), but they are effin expensive out here on the edge of sanity and are better kept at home to track bass to a computer, unless perchance you just made several millions selling killer fake-ass cigarettes to hapless construction site workers...

If you still have a "wash" problem fire the bassist and get someone who can actually play ie with some DRIVE and correct damping technique. And with their fingers, not with a pick, unless you are doing Stranglers or Beatles covers (in 2007?).

Cue much laughter from the gallery. OK, I live in SA. Are you in Jozi? I''ll bring my old passive p/up Jap Fernandes Precision copy with said cheapo DI and preamp and I will drop an Aston Barrett or Marcus Miller on ya. Tonewise, I mean, the chops are a little rusty, no to mention the cursed mouse RSI. No, the amp will sound better. Yes, the cruddy DI costs a few hundred bucks. Wat se jy, bra?

clinton wrote: Hi All

Ok, we got a bass amp. Turns out someone in the congregation had a Fender 100W (dont know the model but it has a 15") just lying around.

so we hooked it up and it really sounded good (much better then the PA).

So a question: would we set it up at the far back of the stage next to the drummer. I ask because the amp sounds very different if you are not lstening to it straight on. So people directly in front of the amp will hear one sound and people to the side of the amp will hear another (less defined) sound.

Thanks All

Oops. Ignore the wordy rant above. Glad you found an amp dude. Foundation of any band playing any genre is that the kick and bass must lock down the groove. Since you are not micing up the drummer must hear the bass amp loud and clear (and the bass player must hear the kick, obviously). And be able to maintain eye contact! In line with and fairly close to the kit is the correct position for the amp, all the more so if you are playing in a boomy church hall. The more reverberation either player picks up the harder it is to stay in sync.