Hmm...perhaps you could post a sample of your work?

When you place a mic on a guitar cab, how far out are you? Same question for kit, vocals, etc.

Perhaps you're simply placing the mics to far out...or dare I say - facing them backwards...(don't laugh, it's been done before.)

Cheers -

J.

xX5thQuarterXx wrote: .....Im talking about every and any rock song.....the instruments do have reveb but they dont sound like there 30 feet away....and way to fix this? Im almost positive its in a way how i position the mics with the shape of my room. (or so im guessing)

hmm I would not say that every instrument has or needs reverb.
are you using one? How do they sound dry do they all sound 30 feet away?

OK so this is my problem.....

The thing i want to fix first is the Guitars.

When i mic the Cabs somewhat close (1-4inches) I can get a decent sound if i crank up the gain on the Firepod...So i have this sound that is decent but its clipping.....so i reduce the gain and it makes it sound farther away.....

I'm working on the kit right now so i think i got that under control....

Here is a pretty rough thing we just through tougher so i could post something.....

http://media.putfile.com/Even-If-you-Miss

Im kind of dissapointed becasue i have gotten way better results with my old Alesis Mixer and Peavy PA.....but i know this firepod is capable of way
more

no ideas???

It may well be the room that's your problem. It's perfectly acceptable today not to add additional reverb to your sources. The instruments sound like they have in-your-face potential. Sometimes too much drive on a guitar amp gives the illusion of distance; also, if your mic is too far off-axis from the speaker cone you might be picking up more room than you want.

I took a quick listen and this is how I attempt getting a large/modern recording.

Drums - Sample replacement/reinforcement. You can either use a program like Drumagog, Aptrigger, or manually add the samples. There are many ways to do it manually...easiest in Pro Tools.

Guitars - A lot of people will say compression, but distorted guitars are already compressed like a mutha. Layer your takes using less distortion than you would normally use. Excess gain sounds thin...low gain across a few layers sounds huge. Automating a quick volume boost on parts that need to jump (pick scrapes, transitions, and such) will definitely make the guitars jump with the song a little more.

Bass - I tend to compress the hell out of bass and automate volume at any areas that I need more or less of it. I also tend to add a little distortion/eq to make it a little gargly in modern rock/metal.

Vocals - I love an SM7 with very small amounts of reverb, lots of compression (I use Waves SSL for this typically), and a touch of distortion.

Overall, I tend to add distortion/saturation to almost everything. It is kinda needed with modern rock/punk/metal. Digital recording is very pristine and distortion is what we have been conditioned to hear on pretty much every major release (tape & analog gear).

It also sounds like you have a bit of overspill from some of the other mics which is making the room sound worse, do you record all the instruments at the same time in the same room?

Or have you put ambient mics around for various instruments?

I use a firepod almost exclusively. My mixes are right in your face and all that junk....Basically you have to be brave enough to bring the guitars forward and leave the drums further in the background, I'm a drummer and it took me a while to get used to it but it will give you the ability to bring the guitars forward. I haven't listened to your sample yet but I have a feeling this is your problem. either that or you have to learn mic'ing technique on your guitar cabs. Usually pointing straight ahead at the cone helps or go with headphones and listen for the point in which the hiss fro mthe amp is loudest, that's the sweet spot.
When i listen to your sample though, I'll be able to give you better advice, but this is my off the cuff advice.

I use a firepod almost exclusively. My mixes are right in your face and all that junk....Basically you have to be brave enough to bring the guitars forward and leave the drums further in the background, I'm a drummer and it took me a while to get used to it but it will give you the ability to bring the guitars forward. I haven't listened to your sample yet but I have a feeling this is your problem. either that or you have to learn mic'ing technique on your guitar cabs. Usually pointing straight ahead at the cone helps or go with headphones and listen for the point in which the hiss fro mthe amp is loudest, that's the sweet spot.
When i listen to your sample though, I'll be able to give you better advice, but this is my off the cuff advice.

To listen to my recordings all of which were recorded with a Presonus Firepod, visit: http://multoc.com, http://myspace.com/yeolderelic, http://myspace.com/earthvsthespider, http://myspace.com/colorblindmanager, http://myspace.com/vigildeath, and finally http://myspace.com/andiwillremain

Mmmk I listened to it. You should definatly pan out your guitars left and right. And I mean HARD LEFT AND HARD RIGHT! And it also sounds like you should mike closer to the amps and lose the reverb (if any was added) to the guitars, but the panning will definatly help alot!

yeah, record the guitars separate from the drums and bass (if bass is miced) turn the gain on the guitar amp down a bit and if this is in a bare walled garage or basement put up whatever you can to deaden the room.

as far as the older equipment sounding better, thats very possible. the better fidelity reveals the good and the bad in sounds, techniques, other equipment, playing etc.

OK, I took a listen to your "rehearsal" session.

DUDE! Everybody else who has commented here has failed to notice that your recording is most distinctly MONO! Sure, some folks have told you to place your guitars in the left and right channel, wide. It sounds like you set up a single microphone in a garage to record your band? Plus. You have some really terrible phase cancellation going on here and that's why you're not happy with the sound. I like good Mono. I do good Mono. I give good Mono. This is not good Mono.

You're recording technique, use of your equipment, is really quite flawed. You need to review your software help file. I believe you probably made better recordings on the junky old Peavey PA? I certainly have! It's certainly more straightforward when you can grab knobs, in the great analog tradition. That way, you know what's going left. You know what's going right. You even know when it's going terribly wrong, when it's terribly wrong.

My recordings sound good because I start with a less is more mindset. Shure SM58/57/56, on just about everything. Straight in, with maybe a little compression on the vocalist. Not much radical equalization on anything, especially during tracking (which you cannot do anyhow). Some greater manipulation on bass drum and snare drum, in the mix. But it also sounds like you might have some improperly wired microphone cables?? I'm hearing way too much phase cancellation, even in your mono mix. It's hopelessly obvious.

You're also doing something terribly wrong in your software. You're recording is not stereo. It's 2 Channel Mono. Can you spell "Panoramic Potentiometer"? Maybe "Pan Pot"? How about "balance control"? (Even though that's a panoramic potentiometer, for a stereo source) You might want to look into a different recording software? Maybe something that's more intuitive for you? Adobe Audition? Sony Vegas? Steinberg Nuendo? Obviously your missing something in the software you are currently using. Not that the software is missing anything, but you are.

Or did you really make this recording with a single microphone??
Ms. Remy Ann David

RemyRAD wrote: I like good Mono. I do good Mono. I give good Mono. This is not good Mono.

There's a good Mono? Well I still don't want it. :P

Ok so i got a 4 day break and i am going to take all of you suggestions into consideration!

Ive learned a few things but, im still a little bit foggy on some.

So when im setting the input gain with the firepod i can get a really good sounding in ur face guitar, but only if the light shows that it is clipping..... so i have to turn everything down to where it sounds like what u said "One mic in a garage" I dont get it, do i need to compress like every mic?

As Remy said, mixing in stereo would certainly help you take your mixes beyond the 1st dimension. Also, if you want your guitars to have more presence in the mix, don't suck so much midrange from them. Mids can be friendly. The phasing is really hollowing out your mix, especially since it's in mono. Do you know what phasing is? Some people don't, everyone should. You can compress the shit out of your guitar, but it won't bring back the sounds you cancelled out before they had a chance to meet your hard disk.

When you're setting your input gain set it to just below the clipping, then try to record everything seperatly if you can. THEN pan things out (depending on how you're miking drums pan cymbals left and right, toms mid left,midright, snare and kick in the center) then take your two rhythm guitar tracks pan those right and left (100/-100), bass in the center, and then you have much more control over your levels and a in your face sound, but that in your face sound takes time to come, you have to be patient and don't expect it to sound in your face while you're tracking, that comes later on in the process when you're mixing

Whoever suggested programmed or looped drums for in your face sound hasn't had success recording live drums. You can't get more in your face than with live drums. They move air and push diaphrams. You hae to go after purity and clearity. Remy is right. Less is best unless your talking breasts (hey that may be a lyric someday when the 80's come back in) Anyway, look at the manual for your mics and get familiar with the pickup pattern of the microphone. This will prevent positioning errors such as cross cancelling. Cross cancelling is like taking the wind out of your sails. Tune great, perform great and capture the purity and clearity of the drums.
Tommy

No u don't compress the mics, u get what's called "unity gain" where the level is just below clippage. Anyway use the faders on your program to turn up your volume. Don't be afraid of those! That's half the key to getting the in your face sound. Mic closer to your amps, all compression does is even out the overall level: it brings soft sounds up, and loud sounds down just about (though that'sm ore like a limiter). Anyway like i said use thefaders on your program after you've recorded to bring your guitars out of the mix, and use some eq damnit!

A couple of thoughts.

1. Sounds like there is alot of space between the mic and the cabinet of the guitar amps. As was earlier stated record guitar track 1, hard pan to the left, record guitar track 1 again (physically replay it on another track in unison with the 1st take) and hard pan that track to right. That will fatten up your guitar riff and make it sound more "in your face." Try losing any reverb and mixing the 2 tracks to remain at the same volume so it really sounds like one big guitar.

2. Drums sound like you used 1 or 2 mics to pick up the set and they sound far away. Try close micing snare and bass drum (watch for clipping) then use 2 overheads for the sound of the entire kit. If you have the mics to do it, mic all drums up and run a pair of overheads. Pan the overheads to taste to give the kit a more realistic spacial representation (I ussually pan overheads around 30%). In most cases I can think of, the bass and snare should run down the center of your mix.

3. DONT GIVE UP. You will keep working at it and eventually each mix will sound better than the last. That really should be everyone's goal. I think Outkast said that "you're only as good as your last song." I think that is true in recording as well. Keep trying to improve. There is no such thing as the perfect mix (but the Beatles got pretty freakin close!)

Peace.

xX5thQuarterXx wrote: Right now when i record through my Firpod into cubecase, it sounds like i just threw up a couple room mic's and thats it. How do i get that sound when it actually sounds like the instruments are IN your speakers.....Im talking about every and any rock song.....the instruments do have reveb but they dont sound like there 30 feet away....and way to fix this? Im almost positive its in a way how i position the mics with the shape of my room. (or so im guessing)

So far several good posts suggesting issues to consider for getting miked instrument tracks.

Taking your query seriously for getting "in your face" sound quality suggest considering HRTF (dummy head) 2-channel stereo-surround mic positioned in ONE place in your room, recording each instrument track as 'stage blocked' stereo within that room. Louder instruments may be placed more distant and off to one side, while softer instruments might be closer, even positioned behind the stationary positioned HRTF mic. Later in post all stereo tracks are mixed mostly 'one-to-one' after adding effects to create a mix down copy.

Explanation of this technique at http://www.sonicstudios.com/multitrk.htm

Recorded examples HRTF sessions at http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Listen especially to Dale Inskeep's acoustic guitar sessions where he plays 2 or more different instruments and does the suggested stereo track mix down so everything melds to sound simultaneous with great sounding room acoustics.

Nice compression, and nice reverb processing thats all i can say lol. thats what makes it sound in ur face as in a live setting reverb and compression come naturally.

I can't believe no one has mentioned EQing the guitars. Do some cutting at the lower end and boost some at the mid to high end which is kind of what the "presence" knob is for on your amp. I don't know what frequencies are good starting points for electric guitar. Look at an eq website.

I think that could make a difference.

I would not recommend verbs for in your face sound.

First off, if you want the whole thing to be in your face, that is mixing and mastering. As someone else suggested, keep instruments in their place f band wise.

If you are going off of what you hear on the radio and on modern rock CDs, they majority of that is hard compression/limiting. The RMS is increased to a constant, all dynamics are eliminated.

Sound, tonally, like if you want big huge vocals, there mic and preamps that are for that. You would not want to use this on everything, but usually to highlight vocals or a solo instrument.

What you are gonna find, without the best of the best rooms, gear, and quality compression, etc, it is practically impossible to capture that huge commercial sound.

I was at one time having some problem with the kick drum sound. Then my assistant was adjusting while I was moving the mics and we got "the sound"

During mixdown I noticed that "the sound" was the mic clipping.

Now the mic always clips the converter when I record that sound.

If it sounds right it is right.

peace
PHil