Why not something like a Mackie Onyx 2480...or maybe a used 32-8. The 32-8 has a good reputation and was/is used by many. I don't know if they would eclipse the sound of your current rig, but I don't know how much of an eclipse you can get for $5,000.

I think that I would like the Toft could probably deliver a noticable change in the sound (probably better but possibly worse...depending on the listener) but i've never heard one.

Toft ATB or A&H GL2400 actually stack up just fine against the ATB.

I've used all 3 and they each bring different things to the table.

The A&H brings good pre's and a serviceable EQ to the table. I have found that the 2-bus does run out of gas in the low end dept.

The Venice IS a Midas... if you poo poo a Midas for live industry standards, then you have no idea what you are saying, and likely less in what you are doing.

The ATB's are good pre's and an excellent EQ. I just wouldn't look for the meter bridge anytime soon.

To me it's a coin toss, but I'd probably go with the ATB, the Midas and A&H in that order.

Thank you for the replies!

Pr0gr4m- I have considered another Mackie, but I seem to be hunting for a different sound. I've had the chance to use a 24-8 and It was just not quite what I am looking for.

MadMax- I want to clear it up, I wasn't intending to poo poo Midas in any capacity whatsoever. I was simply unsure how this particular model stacked up compared to the ATB. The part about me not knowing what I'm saying or doing.. well that part is probably true! :P

Thanks for your opinions though, its really good to hear from someone who has used all three and can compare/contrast. As for the ATB meterbridge, I read over on another forum that it was basically done and should start shipping soon, so take 'soon' with a grain of salt I guess.

What were your impressions of the midas sonically as compared to the other two?

I see that you're in the 'area'.....Northwest.

There are many conflicting reviews of the Toft. Some of its issues deal with build quality. I dont know personally. I havent heard one but have closely looked at one....felt it up....flipped its switches. That doesnt tell a person anything.

I have mixed on a Midas in a live venue. Lots of headroom. Very good sounding, at least live, but after a couple of sets ...whats sound anyway???

A&H designate their boards with the letters in the model. GL is structured towards live sound and has a matrix mix in place on some models...GS is the studio version and has more outputs geared to patching and routing.

I'm not sure the innards are much different.

They sound very clean and the build quality is good.

I have a Soundcraft Ghost. Its about eleven years old now and since I dont want the jinx I cant tell you how well its worked all these years. I have had it about half its life.

I dont know if its 'better' than anything else you've listed. It works for me and I get a very good and detailed sound from it. I like it particularly when I drive it a bit hard. It doesnt cloud up like some mid-range gear does, and it actually sounds warmer. Whatever warmer is.......

I think in your price range you need to seriously look to a used console. You will find pristine condition pieces that will give you much better sound than those you have listed. Theres a lot of boards floating around out there and theres more than you can imagine in this area just waiting for someone to upgrade to them and love em like they deserve.

A detailed and patient search might get you a used AMEK or a large frame Soundcraft, certainly an AMR or even a Yamaha PM2000. I like the pres in the 1000 but it has no direct outs and most have been hammered. Even the hammered ones still work!

The issue with the Toft was evidently regarding Lot#2... some pretty spotty parts and semiconductors here and there.

Alan Hyatt (and co) evidently took a pretty good rash of grief over it, too. But I heard through the grapevine that they've made good on all the problems.

I also take it you've been over at The Womb? (the Meterbridge)

If you are willing to look at used consoles and the potential issues... DD's on target... I might add the DMX R100 to the list as well.

My comment of poo poo-ing the Midas wasn't directed at you... There's been a lot of folks who've said it isn't a real Midas, cause it isn't big and massive and HEAVY. But it sounds and feels like Midas in every aspect that I've found.

it sounds and feels like Midas in every aspect that I've found.

+1

wow thanks for all the input guys I really really appreciate it.

DaveDog- I noticed earlier you were in the PNW also. Do you know of a good place to look for used consoles in the area? That's definitely a good way to go and it sounds like just what I need, but I need to do a bit more research on Amek's and other discontinued gear and then track some of 'em down in the area. I scan craigslist from time to time, but nothing really substantial ever comes up... not too surprising though..

Being that the area is such a music oriented place with so many studios and artists and all that, I'm sure there's just a wealth of used gear out there that could use a good new home. I'm more than happy to take that route but in the case that something does need repairs- I'd need a good pro audio place to take care of it for me. I feel like Carlson Pro Audio would do me right... any experience with them? I know they're a huge pro audio and live sound presence in the NW and what I've heard about them so far is good.

That's also nice to hear about positive experiences with the Midas board from you guys considering it's a little bit cheaper than the ATB. As for the Ghost, I checked those out too in my search, but it's just a bit out of my reach as far as budget goes (at least as it stands now). If I could find a used one, I wouldn't pass it by without taking a serious look.

Max- Yep, I've ventured into the world of The Womb. Kinda intimidating, but it seems to me like there's a ton of knowledge there that I could benefit from. I take it you're a member on The Womb as well as RO? I've been lurking around and reading a lot there so far. As for poo pooing the midas, I didn't think it was necessarily directed at me, I just wanted to clarify in case I was misunderstood or something. no big deal. :)

I'll plan on adding all of the consoles you guys mentioned to my research list and see if I can track down a few to check out and hopefuly listen to.

Again, very, very much appreciated. I owe a lot to guys like you on forums like these for helping me out and setting me straight. 8-)

Sheehan-J

Quick ponderance for you guys as I'm researching and considering different consoles..

I've wandered across the Trident 8T series... I understand that Oram and Toft were colleagues in the past and are now competitors. I've listened to some sound samples on the Gear Slutz forums A/Bing the two, and they sound fairly similar.

For reference, this is the thread on the page with mix bus samples linked:(Dead Link Removed)

I'm torn, though, between the slightly emphasized mid-low end of the Trident vs the clarity of the Toft. I think the Trident has the ability to easily become muddy with too much low end build up between different instruments. I feel like if you wanted it you could EQ it on the way in with the Toft instead of just having it with the Trident.

Thoughts?

To me, it's not about the sound of either console... it would be about the other aspects of ownership.

Service, support, parts, reliability, etc... the rest of the picture.

They are both pretty darn close in what they are and offer sonically.

To expand a bit on Max's post....the 'other' factor in the difference in sound of a couple of similar consoles would be the operator.

Work flow is another factor in choosing something you're going to be pouring over like a mad scientist for hours on end.....the worst thing is to find the layout to be something you simply cant get used to....

I dont think I've ever seen a Trident 8T.....must have been one of the 'consumer' level consoles from the early 90's....

Right before the digital evolution, a lot of the big console makers were either going out of business or designing a consumer level console to compete with the Tascams, Fostex, and others' offerings that were becoming the go-to boards for HOME RECORDISTS on a budget. The scarifice for these units was always something either sonically, build quality, or asthetics. Most were sonics. Mix-Wizards, Ghosts, ALL the A&H GS series, Peavey/AMR, Hill Audio, small format Soundtracs, many others.

They all sound very similar, and choosing one othese mid-range consoles, especially used, means knowing the history of these companies and having a sense of their parts availability, reliabilty issues, a service record on any unit you get interested in.....research.........

In choosing a large-format console, the same research applies as well as having access to a reliable repair tech.

At least with a large format console, the strips are all individual and can be serviced without a down time for the rest of the board.

If you had 10K to spend, you could find a very good condition ,recapped, inservice console that will sell time as well as make everything sound better.

The step from the Mackie to this is breathtaking.

Thanks Dave and Max, I understand what you both mean about other factors and it's something I've considered a bit. As far as my work flow is concerned, I don't think I've had enough real console time to get used to one, so adapting won't hopefully be a problem.

The Trident 8T is apparently Oram's response to Toft's ATB, from what I've read so far. It seems to be almost identical to the Toft +/- a few things.

I can only imagine what it would be like to transition to a $10k console from my old Mackie. That purchase will have to wait a while though.

Actually I think TOFT and ORAM released ATB and 8T at the same time. Kinda of a little feud going on there. Both trying to be trident on their own.

The ATB has the ADC's built in, where as the 8T is essentially the same as a MACKIE 8 bus format. But the eq is better.

Link555 wrote: Actually I think TOFT and ORAM released ATB and 8T at the same time. Kinda of a little feud going on there. Both trying to be trident on their own.

The ATB has the ADC's built in, where as the 8T is essentially the same as a MACKIE 8 bus format. But the eq is better.

From the ad campaign side... Malcom's board hit the market a few months before the Oram... (from the FWIW dept)

When did ATB get the ADC's done?!? In the last 72 hours?

AFAIK, they're still twisting in the wind from 3 different vendors who failed to complete the converters. I know [[url=http://[/URL]="http://thewombforum…"]bubba's[/]="http://thewombforum…"]bubba's[/] still waiting on his AND the meterbridge.

wow- I thought he had those already done, so they are the same board after all!

Funny the wars going between those two. Same thing that broke them up the first time I guess.

Interesting find...

Any opinions on the Studiomaster 24-4-2 console (EDIT: It's a Studiomaster 16 with 2 4 channel add-ons)? I found one for a very attractice price (likely some issues since it's a console from the 80s). What I know is that it's a british company and has been used by the likes of Phil Collins and others (big whoop, I know, but that has to mean a little something, huh?)

Questions/concerns:

I read a review of some interesting/troubling 'zipper' type sounds from the pop of each row in the led ladders turning on and off as the meters bounce up and down. Can someone confirm this or was it an isolated case?

Thanks for your input!

This is one console which I would NEVER recommend to anyone. You'll run out of headroom way before you get signals up to the level you'll want to get any warmth.

The routing on them is quite good, the pres arent any better than Mackies and the sliders get noisy real quick.

That's exactly what I needed to know. I had a feeling it was too cheap to be any good.

Much appreciated Dave, I'm sure I'll be back with more questions soon.

I've been put on the trail of an old Soundcraft console that supposedly came out of a broadcast studio. It's old and discontinued, but I'm told it's in great shape except for the small bit of duct tape on the meterbridge. Right now it's at a local studio being checked out to see that everything operates as it should. The guy that brought it to my attention said there wasn't even dust on it, the faders are smooth as glass, its got a built in patch bay and that it's wide and heavy (wide and heavy has to be good, right?). With that said, I don't know what model it is and I can't make it out to be any that are listed on Soundcraft's website. I need to do some research on it, but I need your help to find it first! Here are a few photos he snapped.

Any clues as to the model of the console and the year it was made would be great.

thanks!

I think its a 1624. DOB around the early 80's. Very fine console and if its as low milage as you seem to think and all the switches check out as well as the caps and such, this would be the upgrade you're looking for. Make absolutely sure there are ZERO issues with the power supplies. These go boom and so it takes out most everything else. If this board is inexpensive it would behoove you to have a specialty shop build an upgraded power supply. That way you are assured many years of fun and frolic.

Davedog you're the man. I'll be sure to ask about the power supply, but who would build an upgraded power supply for me? Any specific shops in mind?

Have you looked in to Carvin at all? Carvin products, especially the more expensive ones, have always had excellent quality, at least in my experience. My church has a Carvin board, and it is quite nice. This is their top-of-the-line model: https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=sl40c I'd say it's worth consideration, expecially considering that the build quality on these is truly excellent.

I hadn't much looked at Carvin in the past but I took just now and it looks like their S/L model is out of my price range. That's why I'm looking into something a little older.

Thanks for the tip though, every thought is appreciated!

Quick update on the 1624. I just got back from taking a look at it today. The stand and power supply cable were not on site so I didn't get to see it power up or hear anything through it, however I 'felt it up' so to speak and the faders truly are smooth. wow.

I need a quick bit of advice on this next part though... Well, really just someone to tell me if I'm crazy or not.

The seller was told that this console is worth $5k. For a little background, the console was given to him after the console in his club was stolen. He couldn't use it because its a recording console and its far too large for his space. At this point, it seems like he's really just trying to get rid of it since it doesn't fit his application. I'm not prepared to spend that much on it and I don't think its worth $5k based on what I've read and researched on the internet. He also indicated that it wasn't necessarily his asking price.

I'm preparing to offer to take it sight unseen (powered up, anyway) and unheard for $2500. Along with this I'll assume all the risk of it not powering up and having an issue or two here or there. At the same time though, I still want a good tech to take a look at it after I make the purchase.

So am I crazy to consider this? I don't know if he'll go for the offer either and I don't want to lowball him. I feel like the risks I'd be taking along with my limited budget sort of remove the stigma of 'lowball' from my offer.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Okay. You want to see it power up. There is simply no excuse for not doing this so whatever the owner says, you need to see the lights flash and it go through its check-in procedure. Bring a set of phones and a mic and cable and quickly go through the channels.

From the pictures I can tell you that someone hasnt used this console very much. All of the numbers of the channels at the bottom of the frame as well as the markings on the patchbay look new. These are all areas that the paint fades easily in a lot of use.

While this doesnt guarantee a pristine sounding board, it is 30 years old after all, it does give a hint to its past.

Go to Soundcrafts' web site and download the PDF files on this console. There is a complete owners/users guide still available. Read it. I think a lot of the outputs on this board are probably unbalanced. This isnt a problem if your leads to your effects and your recorder are fairly short.

The mic pres are transformerless. Low-noise but will rely on a good power supply to warm up.

Make your offer based on what you think you might have to spend to reburbish a portion of it should you find it needs things. Because its modular, learn how to dissassmble the channels and learn about how to replace switches and pots yourself. Its a lot cheaper. I know they're all on ribbon connectors so moving it wont be as much of a problem as moving something that heavy with a motherboard assembly involved.

You're gonna love the sound of it. Very underrated console.

Thanks again Dave. I did read that it was mostly unbalanced, however my interface is probably 1.5" from my current board, and would only be about as far from the 1624. I don't think those runs should cause any problems. I've downloaded the user manuals from Soundcraft's website and have read most of them.

Thanks for all the tips, I really appreciate the help.

Joe

1.5"...
I can't let that one slip past. It's just too funny. You're suggesting your interface is within 2 inches of your console?

Also, sweet looking console. Paint it some shiny colour and clients should be impressed. Then add blue neon strips underneath, dual (quad?) exhausts, and play some loud drum'n'bass. Oh wait, this is a console, not a car...

Yep, those consoles can sound really nice. Don't agree anything until you have seen it powered up, not just for a couple of minutes, but for a hour or so.

Dave's advice about taking along a mic, XLR cable and phones is good. You may find some channels simply don't work, which would not be surprising in a unit of that vintage. Write down as you go along everything that appears not to be correct. If at the end of the testing you are prepared to make an offer, point to your list and bargain at, say, $250 - $500 per fault, depending on the severity.

Good luck with this - you could have yourself a really sweet sounding console.

When I went to take a look at it I took a set of phones a mic cable and a mic to check it out but I wasn't aware that the power cable wasn't with it yet so I'm on the same page as you there. Thanks for the pointers guys, and yes, I did mean 1.5 feet.

thanks for pointing that out. :P

Well the saga comes to an end. Yesterday I went to Pacific Pro Audio and bought their ATB 16 after calling a few days before only to find out that it was on sale because they're moving! How great is that?! It's now all wired up in my studio except for the 2 into 1 cable to route the main outs of my converters into the single stereo TRS 2 track return jack. Pres sound SOO much better, EQ is clear and effective, faders are a great improvement from my old mackie. 8-)

Thanks for the help with my research and decisions everyone, especially DaveDog. I appreciate having the insight of veterans to help guide my decisions. I predict many years of joy and prosperity with my new console. :)

Again, thanks.

Joe

Tofts are Ok not great pots and switches, probably no worse then a new midas , same issues cheap China crap parts and manufacturing process, ( Not hand made like the better older stuff) as you would expect sound ok, Some of the new cheap Midas console are ok, For certain not a Midas Pre 4 OR h3000 but brand new probs and nice sounding with lots of features for those who do not want to get into dealing with electronics and techs.

But if you have any ambitions of greatness check out a used Yamaha Pm2000 or 1532 which is also pretty cool

The Pm2000 has a pre amp as good as any Api I have ever used and I got to do shoot outs with both in the 80's very very close sound hard to tell the difference.

I know for sure the Api console has nicer EQ but apparently there are new mods for the Pm2000 eq JLM audio that makes the PM2000's sound amazing and very much like the APi 550

I think it would take some $ and time to do all 32 channels but still 10's of thousands cheaper then a 16 channel Api1604 which is at least $65,000

Both console are far better built and sounding then any Allen and Heath Consoles which generally sound flat and thin low grade pre amps,and have crappy head room ,they are live consoles not recording consoles!

.... new boards usually of dubious origins built like sh*t .... old boards tons of maintenance issues .... unless you have uber deep pockets and you do audio for chuckles or you have a going studio that bills hundreds per hour booked for a year in advance a "real" console is not realistic.

hybrid mixing is the new paradigm.

Buying a Older Analog Mixer over Hybrid mixing ?

Hybrid Mixing is ok for sure if that is the best you can afford and do ,certainly a step in the right direction.

I like these forums now matter how old they are so that others looking for valuable info and opinions from experienced working engineers, studios,and the odd well informed home enthusiast.

I value all the various points of view, and I want to know what other pros and working studios are doing.

It all helps to snoop around for advice when considering purchases and choices.

Most people do 'hybrid mixing" to save $ and from space restrictions not cause it is the ultimate best quality way to go.

I personally do not find hybrid mixing as good as mixing on an optimum console .

I mostly miss the speed and tactile response and far better sound of mixing on a "Real"Console when I mix hybrid or in Evil DAW's.

A "Real"Console does not have to be an SSL Api or Neve,Spectra Sonics, Quad.Trident a range etc .there nice analog mixing/tracking consoles out there for under $10,000 and even less

True you might need a few $ spent on restoration and tech love, Well worth it compared to a very unsatisfying vibe-less Pro Tools HD Rig in my experience.

II had to have,buy and provide both, one is a cop out and a much lower standard of audio quality in the end, but people want recall over sound quality ,so be it as long as you get the gig and they are happy and come back to you.

I do both forms of mixing as I am forced into the DAW when the client does not have a budget or if it's crappy corp work that will never know or care about quality of warmth,depth and dimension.

The sound of Digi Eq is never as good. I will never buy into it being any where near equal Very nice for corrective anal EQ needs but thats about t,eq over 24-48 tracks is where you will hear it the most.

Hybrid certainly blows away mixing and summing in a DAW mixer which lacks depth dimension and to my many attempts trials and shoot out with many seasoned audio pro colleagues.

Most of them have decades of experience recording as a full time job and have used most of the audio gear ever made .

Saying that I trust them over the homesumer novices that have plenty to say but little or 0 time logged on various pieces of"Real" recording gear.or are lacking time spent in anything more then a basement studio.solo with only utube videos for resources and socialization.

Beware of opinions on forums for this very reason.
We have a couple local self proclaimed audio experts who have plenty to say and literally 0 recording experience besides Mbox to speak of, always piping in about Neve's and La 2a and how his plug ins are amazing .oK? But how would you no or be able to say if you have no clue or any base line to go by?

We love talking and working with lots of people,home recordist from all kinds of back rounds, but also try to educate people on the facts about doing things the high quality way to the best that their budget can manage.

Over all I have had and still operate a few older analog consoles and do not have too many big issues, I got them in reasonable shape and learned to do some of the basic and ordinary maintenance work myself, which is not too hard and also lots of forums to help learn with .

In my opinion if you do your research, talk to some valid experienced pros on and off of forums and you will find many awesome analog consoles well worth buying and restoring if need be .

Analog consoles have been getting silly cheap. It's is well worth getting into and mixing on .

It also shows a commitment to quality for a studio it looks and is "Real"recording gear to separate you from the Sea of Hacks out there if mastered and executed correctly!

Good to have you here Jerry, I never get tied of members like you here!

The strongest advantages I personally hear some hybrid system offers over the traditional console is extreme low noise, higher headroom and scalability with more accurate options to dial in any spectrum of flavor or silk transparency all the way to the mastering. Its the ultimate modular concept.

"hybrid mixing is the new paradigm"

Why you ask?

I speak from personal experience. Without going on about me, the majority of these ITB vs OTB opinions come from people whom have never even used a complete system or only attempted hybrid summing doing the round trip back into Pro Tools. That may sound okay but that's not how I do it. That is ass backwards.

You can get huge energy or remain very transparent yet warm with hybrid mixing where a console is always including its sonic footprint and noise. This may or may not be an advantage but I personally think this is limited compared. Still outstanding, but more limited.

The combination of analog and digital used together in a delegated order is undoubtedly superior just for the mere fact it gives us more options to design sound. How could anyone deny this. Digital is incredible but its generic. Its also extremely quiet so the key is to invest in high end gear with huge headroom and extreme low noise. This way, we keep things pretty even until we start designing the sound. Its easy to hear everything you are doing this way.

Each has its strength and weaknesses so the key IMHO is to use both to our advantage.

It comes down to this for me. DAWs excel with the clinical stuff, analog excels in personality. I personally think high end Hybrid is the ultimate. As Kurt said, hybrid mixing is the new paradigm thumb