I think your first step is to figure out what your safe max channel count is. If 16 channels is enough then along with the Presonus Studiolive you should consider the Onyx 1640 and several of the Yamaha boards such as the 01v96 or a couple MX line. If you need more than 16 sticks then you get to figure out what is good in the 24 stick count. I would make sure I had allowances for live recording even if it's just the 2-bus.

Lighting. Well I never got into the squint business so I won't be much help there but light boards come in various sizes as well so you have to figure out the maximum number of cans you might need since it's always easier to use less than add to a maxed out board. Now you get to by trusses and light stands and wire and another power distro and ........

Now once you figure out what you need and how to buy it, you're gonna need to find a coupla guys named Guido and Bubba to help haul this large amount of gear around. And a truck.

If this is to be a pro business then here's the deal:
1) write a business plan with gear list and investment/reinvestment schedule.
2) do not try to go cheap. Get the gear you need and don't cripple yourself by trying to "get by."
3) plan on reinvesting and upgrading and maintaining your gear too.

Well, we don't do lights. We record in the dark. Alexander Graham Bell had nothing to do with Thomas Edison. And Thomas Edison had nothing to do with Mr. Westinghouse Who believed in alternating current. Whereas Thomas Edison believed in direct current. Tesla was from another planet entirely. Mr. Watson come in here I need you, because the dummy spilled acid on himself.

Now you know everything you need to know. But if I were you and I'm not, I wouldn't invest in a new digital mixer right out of the gate. Start with the basics called analog. So that you understand how everything works. Then you can move up to lights. Once you've got that down, you can purchase yourself a multitrack digital recorder to go with your analog sound system & laptop. Once you've become proficient with all of that, then you can start looking at all of those digital thingies since they are not as intuitive to use. Don't worry about specifications. It's a phalus see? People Think I Don't Know Dick Cheney and They Would Be Correct. But specifications in all of this stuff is moot because all of this stuff is made from the same stuff. You change a resistor here and there and that changes the specifications. It all works. It all works well & well enough to become competent with. I'm an old-timer that started with toy equipment and worked my way up. That's another reason why I have a better understanding than most. You don't start with a Formula One race car when you learn how to drive. You start with an old beat up Chevy. Because that's the smart way to start. You get to learn what you need to learn. Don't be fooled by fools.

I'm the real bitchin' deal
Mx. Remy Ann David

Thanks for your reply John! I do plan on doing this as a business. I have a band all lined up, when I get myself set up, for regular gigs. They are looking for a full time guy to integrate into their shows, rehearse with the band etc. Ive got a plan in my head to help subsidize them with some other things.

Do you have any magazines, books, websites, etc. that I can research and learn more about doing live sound?

Eventually I would like to have a recording studio either in house or in a stand alone building.

It's hard to recommend specifics when I know nothing about your experience. I mean I don't know if words like TT or Elko or Phoenix or TRS or XLR or Speakon mean anything or not.

Remy is a wealth of knowledge in the no BS get it done sort of way. She jokes a lot but has been there and done that in live sound/broadcast/recording. Don't let the Neve consoles fool ya. She probably could get it all done on a Behringer board almost as well.

I started out the same way working live sound in no fail situations. At that time it was a 56 channel FOH and a 48 channel MON console. And lots of opportunities to MacGuyver things together since in the Marine Corps you never have everything you need, but the Generals and the Band Officers just don't care. Recording came later as a complimentary effort and a means to satisfy the classical musician inside. Now I don't do much live sound at all, just concert recordings.

It's hard to get that kind of experience from a book or as a hobby. If you are going to put your name and reputation on the line then you really do need to be ready for prime time. If you don't really have any live sound experience then you may need to intern with someone as well as con any band you can into letting run their gear.

The best reference I know (other than your equipment manuals and experiences) is the Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis. There is no substitute for hands on time with cables and mic's and killing feedback and finding hum and dealing with band egos and.......

Ryan,

You're talking live... You should pop down to sheet's corner of the world in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Live Forum[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Live Forum[/]

Not to burst your bubble, but why are you looking at pro-sumer junk if you're trying to give them something so much better?

Look at pro gear such as Midas, Digico, ShowCo, Digidesign, and Yamaha for consoles. A decent console and a decent line array along with a good monitor rig would be the minimum I'd start with.

For lighting, start with a Janz and some Leprecon or ETC dimmers. Thomas truss is about as good as it gets, IMHO. Snag a dozen movers, 4-6 dozen pars and a coupla' hazer's, with a half dozen or so good chain motor's and you're in business.

I'd say a budget of $150-$200k should do ya, if you buy new and you're looking at standard small rig stuff.

Well first off sorry for posting this on the wrong board. If a mod would move it to the live sound board I would appreciate it.

Secondly I just want to say that although I'm happy to be getting some feedback I guess I need to post my budget and the size venues we should be discussing. We need to be talking about a set to do small shows very small probably were talking about a couple thousand square foot clubs that even the largest show will only hold a couple hundred people tops. Ill be looking to spend between 10 and 15k to get going. Basically I want to do something small but do it in a professional way. I don't wan to walk in with the typical mackie console and peavy monitors that were bought twenty years ago and call it good enough. Plug in eight cans with gels and set them to blink and call it good enough. I'm just looking for some guidance on what to get to do very small stage shows with decent equipment one a relatively small budget, something to where the sound man can work with the band to cooperate and put on the best show we can with what we have

OK, you're looking for club gear, not concert venue stuff... my bad.

I'd look at Midas Venice, A&H GL2800-ish type consoles. A smallish 8 box/4 sub system for mains. Some decent outboard for processing and cut the lighting in half.

Be sure to look at the situation of running monitors from FOH and whether the console you pick will have enough auxes to handle mon's and still give you aux's for FX. In single console situations, I'd get a minimum of 8 auxes, but 10-12 would be a better situation. Also, get enough channel strips to handle two bands for a quick changeover. Otherwise, you're looking at two consoles/systems... one for FOH and one for Mons.

I see you are from Cuba, how was the tornado?

It was all huff and no puff. Where are you at?

Welcome to RO Ryan.

I'm from western PA and I'm familiar with your area. I used to work up there quite a bit in the 90's.

You say that the acts in your area, "deserve much better than they are getting now", that's certainly an admirable reason to take up the cause.
However, you have to look at this as the business it is, or you're just going to be throwing good money down the drain.

Having a budget number to work with is nice, but you'll have to consider the source on the advice you'll get here. There are folks here who wish they had your budget, and think they're swimming with the sharks, when they're really just wading in the koi pond. They'll tell you to buy whatever bargain basement crap they have, but more of it, - so in the end you'll have the biggest pile of crap ever.
On the other hand there are folks here who have way more than $15k tied up in mics, AND more than that tied up in flightcases, AND more than that tied up in cables. These guys and gals got to where they are by their skills not their gear, and they decided to re-invest in themselves with more/better equipment. - But ironically sometimes they have a hard time remembering what it was like not having a budget for Grade A equipment. So take everyone here, including me, with a grain of salt. I'm not standing in the koi pond, but I'm not doing arena shows like Max either. I'm happily somewhere in the middle, with a system that would be very capable at a large club, or very comfortable doing a small outdoor venue with/for a couple thousand people - at a sensible volume.

Try to get a feel for what camp the posters are in before you let anyone turn your head completely around. Some newcomers get frustrated with this and leave, but if you think for a second and apply their POV to your situation, you can still learn something from just about anybody no matter where they're at on the ladder. Keep asking intelligent questions and the whole gang here will sincerely try to help.

Now let me ask you couple pertinent questions before I throw in my 2 cents about your specific situation.

Do you currently own anything relevant to this project?

Do you see this as a hobby or a full-time profession?

Do you have any idea what these local bands are paying for light/sound now?

Can you give me any idea what kind of gearlist these other sound companies are using now? - so I can gauge where you're aiming.
Mixer / amps / speakers are mostly what I'm interested in.
Effects / mics would all be bonus information.
And since you want to provide lights, you'd better get some info on light controller + dimmers + number / wattage of PAR cans and effects lights.
If you ask, most sound/light guys don't mind if you check out their system during a break - as long as you don't touch anything. Most of them are quite proud of whatever they have and will tell you more than you wanted to know about their systems - if they're not busy.

Do you have any experience (marketable skills) running sound & lights?
[there's more to being a guitar player than just purchasing a guitar -
and if there were varying degrees of truth, that would be 10x more true of PA/lights]

Do you know anything about electricity?

Do you have a truck, van, mini-van, cargo trailer, anything to haul a system? junkyard school bus, bread truck, ambulance, hearse - I think I've seen it all.

What style of music will these bands do? What instrumentation?

Will they have an opening act?

If it's like it was in the 90's I know in your area typically it's one band (without an opening act) doing 3 x hour long sets + breaks, roughly 10pm-2am.
Is that the kind of gig you envision 99% of the time?

Do some homework and check out the competition. Get on the net and see how much these other guys have invested in the core of their system, (mixer / amps / speakers). But be aware that for every dollar they've invested in the pretty boxes you see sitting on stage, there is probably another 50 cents tied up in the unglamorous necessities like racks, direct boxes, cables, cases, & stands.

I have dozens of other questions I would want you to consider before diving in, but that's enough homework for now; Ready, Set, GO!

Well, as one poster mentioned, we have NO idea as to your background and experience. Tracking down a bad cable on a dark stage with a flashlight and a pissed-off crowd of rowdy, impatient drunks is certainly trial-by-fire. I recomend you start off hooking up with one of your local production companies, band(s), or even a decent-sized church to do some volunteering. This will help get some experience under your belt, and not just dealing with the gear, but dealing with the people as well. Sometimes that is the hardest part of this business. And having to deal with gear that is NOT the best on the market will force you to deal with all sorts of issues that can crop up as a result of this. Like they say, if it doesn't kill you, it will make you tougher (or something like that).
What kind of a budget did you have in mind?

moonbaby is obviously not delivering doughnuts on another planet. And I've rarely heard any other dog as articulate as Dave dog. This whole business is an addiction and a money pit. Kind of like sushi & wasabi. Two of my favorite friends. The fish that is. The other two guys are certainly professionals and I am a working girl, or so to speak.

I've got to get my tailgate fixed
Remy

A couple of other things to consider....

If you get into this game with one band and that band breaks up are you going to be able find the next band to use your services or are you going to have to go looking far and wide? How alive is the concert scene where you live? How many different bands and how many different venues? The reason that no one else is providing the services you want to provide is that there may not be any money or growth opportunities so they are keeping their expenses in line with what they expect to make.

A lot of bands will say things like "we love to have you do sound and lights for us" but when someone cheaper comes along you are history. If the band will not sign a long term contract with you then you may be in for a very nasty surprise when they dump you three months down the road.

You have to figure in all your time and expenses versus what you can realistically expect to make. If you spend 10 to 15K and you want to amortize that over a 5 year period that means you have to bring in between 2 and 3K per year just to cover the equipment costs which seems do able. But if the bands you are doing want more then you will have to spend more and get them to pay more for the increased expenses. Are they going to want the the Surf and Turf ala carte menu but want to pay McDonald's budget meal prices for the services you provide? What happens if you get two bands and both have a concert on the same night at different venues? If you put all your eggs in one basket what happens if the band starts breaking up or doing less shows?

A good business plan with well thought out answers to really hard questions is the place to start. You need to do a lot of "what if's" and "how do I do this" type of questions before you spend a dime on equipment.

If you are going to go the semi pro route for most of your equipment are you aware that much of this equipment is not designed for rough handling and 8 to 10 hours days and that it is more suitable for a home studio than life on the road? We record about 20 concerts a year. Most of our gear is high end prosumer or pro and we have problems with connectors, with noisy pots and with the normal wear and tear. I can't imaging what problems we would be facing if we were using Behringer some other less than quality equipment.

I can only wish you the best of luck but do some serious thinking before writing the first check. You have already gotten some GREAT advice from people in this business so now do your homework and answer the hard to answer questions and I think you will be fine.

Just don't go up in a "Great White" puff of smoke! Seriously know your limits and try to understand the bands you're booking and what they want. And I am a fool cuz I really nothing after the glow of Pink Floyd.
And only reason I reply now... Cuz I just wanted to say I don't know Dick cheney or Chevy Chase, but George Burns once made fun of me/friends at Subway. He said we looked like a bunch of girls w/ long hair.

If you are NOT paying attention to the excellent advice given so far then heres your next step. Get a shovel. Any one of several from Ace will do. Go out in your yard and dig a nice hole. Put you money in it. Cover it up. Go to Wendys for some chili.

Business plan. Review of business plan. Research your areas venues. If its one band how many places have a house system? How many of those are going to allow you to mix on their junk? Or run their lights?

Not the situation?

What venues do you plane to bring your gear into? Do they have adequate power capabilities for a set of lights and a PA? Do you have any knowledge of electricity? See, you were already asked that. Why? Cause its important. Lets say you spend a couple of hours schelling all your gear into a tight stage situation and you're all setup. You plug into the stage recepts and then the band gets in and sets up under you. The FIRST note all the power goes out. WHY? Do you know? Its your job to fix it now before the riot breaks out and people want their 5 bucks back at the door. Those happy guys at the door arent going to like you much. Neither is the band.

Theres a lot more to this business than meets the eye. The main reason is the really good sound and light companies do their thing in relative anonimity. Yeah, the lights work....yeah the sound is on....The Band is playing.... i used to do this. I dont have the patience for it anymore. I had a small rig. Four hundred sweating people in a venue. Quad-Amped Jbl stuff....Yamahah...peavey on the mons...24 instruments in the lights...AND my very own set of mains from the panel! Gotta have em. I had about 30 amps from the power amps (all the guys with REAL rigs just laughed!!!) and 50 for the lights. And it was a small rig.

I had a lot more than 15K in that setup. But it sounded great and looked real cool.

my father was born in Cuba NY !

look into a few different systems so you have modularity and versatility. for example...

a set of 15" speakers
a set of 2x15" speakers
a set (or 2) of subwoofers
amps for each set of speakers

this way you can mix and match based on the size of the gig. outdoors you'll need the 2x15" speakers w/sub, but for an indoor show at a small bar you can just bring along the single 15" speakers, ya know?

oh hey also - if you're serious about putting together a system give me a shout - i work at the Guitar Center in buffalo and could hopefully save you a chunk of change.

good luck!

-dave g

Thanks for the advice. Im not ignoring it at all. But I have put in 43 hours at work in the last 3 days Ill answer some questions when I can think in a straight line

I think you and I are kind of on the same track as far as what we want to do. Theres been a load of great advice and things to think about so far here. You will find that some people here are ballin big, and $100k is nothing. I however, cant do it like that. And having a rig for monitors is just out of the question...financially, and not to mention its not needed atleast for what I'm doing.

I run sound for bands and events about twice a week. I started piecing together my setup almost one year ago, and have built it up to where it is today as I get money. I do everything I can to get the best deal on whatever item I'm looking to get. I have a list of everything I want (of course, from time to time it changes and/or expands). As of right now, I'm sitting between $7-8k, and around here atleast, it is one of the nicer setups owned personally. Soon, I would like to legitimize my "business", and expand with a partner for lights, as well as a much needed upgrade in the transportation side of things (enlcosed trailer). Dont forget the very surprising costs that add up when you go to get all of your cables (and extras!), good rack cases, stands and other small misc. things you dont tend to take into account.

To give you an idea of my gear (basics) I'm running a 16ch (soon to upgrade to a 20ch Yamaha board, Crown XLS Power Amps (two 802's, 202, and soon 402), 2 Yamaha 15" Mains, 2 Yamaha 15" monitors, 2 Yamaha 12" monitors, 18" Yamaha subwoofer (second coming soon) and of course some effects, processing, mics, etc. This is considered tiny to most on here, but it gets my jobs done and makes everyone happy I've ever worked with.

Always have more power than you need, and run 4-8ohm always. Two single 15" FOH speakers should be fine, but doubling that may be better if you are working outside. Learn how everything works, so when it no longer works, you can fix it. Know what you are getting yourself into, and have a backup plan or else you will waste alot of money. Research research research. Hopefully my amateur attempt at a reply is helpful to you, as I normally only read and post questions!

Stealthy I was actually just reading your thread earlier.

We plan on doing mainly bars, they dont have the high ceilings though, most are 8-10ft with a few having 12-14'

The two(at least) bands that Ill for sure be able to work with, would need to have the entire band miced. They still would be using their heads and cabinets too if that makes sense? Plus I would need at least four vocal mics. Both bands(and most in my area) are four piece. Vocals, guitar, bass, and drums. Sometimes in the main band, Applejack, the singer might play a couple songs on the guitar as well.

Im planning on supplementing live gigs with DJing, karaoke, PA needs, anything that needs a mic and a speaker basically. There really is only one guy down here that works all these shows. He gets 125 a night for the normal 4 hour+/- gig and it goes up from there. He has two light stands with four cans each and basically they flash from one color to the next with no thought or rythym. Rick and I would like to change the thinking down here instead of going to see a band play we want people to go see "the show" that could be put on, small venue or not! Most of the music that Ill be doing is pretty hard rock, metalish.

I also want to be able to do smallish outside venues for some of the local events down here. Annual biker parties, some cars shows, a couple battle of the bands etc. With the level of competition being small and of pretty piss poor quality we should be able to make this work and work well, at least we think so. Ill be doing it as a professional hobby I guess.

I have an OK knowlegde of electricity, Ive been doing installs with my father(Master Electrician, Millwright) since I was 12, I know my way around a panel I guess is what Im saying, but I spent a whole lot more time pulling cable and wiring outlets.

A buddy of mine has a degree and experience doing serious Pro work, he toured with POD and Godsmack a few years ago, doing sound work for them. He said he would help to show me the ropes a little.

Hope that helps with some of the questions. Now Ive gotta work on my homework assignment. But tomorrow Im going to see Black Label Society, Static X, Mudvayne and Dope in Elmira, NY!

I do the same thing with my gear -- DJ, Karaoke, hosting events (open mic, etc), whatever pays (other than renting to ANYONE!). One thing I forgot to mention earlier was the mixer...I would look at it like this, and to be safe, 4 vocals, bass, TWO guitars, and whatever drums you need (I always mic kick and whatever else is needed for the venue). I'd stick to atleast 16ch if not 20ch, and I mean XLR INPUT wise. Better to have some extras just in case, at some point you will probably need them! Personally, I think if you properly match speakers and amps, you should be able to get away with (2) 1x15 mains for small outside gigs.

Here where I am, I typically make $100-$150 for a 4hr night of running sound for a band. But dont kid yourself, trust me loading/unloading and setup/tear down gets old after awhile and you will quickly wish you were getting paid more haha. I've been thinking about adding a light setup next year, but that would require another person, and of course, more money when they pay me at the end of the night. Just something to think about. I know how it is starting out, and getting your name out, so you want to offer good prices but dont cut yourself short if you really know how to control your gear!

I once heard something that you both need to hear...

A bad piece of business is worse than no business.

Lets say you either one have $12,500 invested in your gear. That means that you have to do 100 shows to get your money back at $125/gig. Then, you have on-going expenses of fuel to do the gig. Let's round that to $1,250 dollars for fuel across those 100 gigs. Low estimate I know, but that's $12.50 you're short on the gig.

There's also oil, tires, maintenance etc. Since I underestimated the fuel costs, lets make up for it here... $1,250 for gen maintenance. There's another $12.50/gig you're shorted.

Then there's your labor... You gotta be worth more than zero dollars/hr, right? Lets say you're worth $15.63/hr. At 2 hours setup, the 4 hr gig and 2 hours for strike, that's $125/gig you're shorted.

So, in the end;
$125.00 Gear Rental
$ 12.50 Fuel
$ 12.50 Maint
$125.00 Labor
$300 Total

You're earning $125...

You're short $175 per gig FROM BREAKING EVEN!

Not to barge in, but how do you suggest we price ourselves? I know experience and final product plays a big part....but...what charges? Fuel/transportation fee, hourly rate, setup/tear down fee, etc? Non-refundable deposit?

Please do barge in... that's what forums are all about, right?

Pricing IS the name of the game, ain't it??? Too low, you go out of business because you can't make a profit. Too high and you don't get any business and you still go under.

The example I gave above is a bit over simplified, but essentially you want to amortize your investment. Take that amortization and apply a reasonable profit on your capital investment, or determine if you want to zero value the item as a COGS line item.

Next, summarize your cash outlay for operational expenses... gas, meals, etc.

Do the same summary for your monthly recurring expenses... rent, phone, insurance, vehicle maintenance, utilities, professional dues, taxes, etc... but do not forget to include any and ALL applicable taxes such as unemployment, FICA, local, state and federal wage, etc. Failure to do so will get you in more hot water than you want to guess you can get into.

Figure in your wage you want to be paid on a per job, or hourly basis. If you want to take the time to figure this a after tax, IMHO, you'll be better off.

Add these up, and that's what you should be charging... It's pretty much just business 101 stuff.

You are receiving all good advice. Here are some more things to think about.

You will have to have some plan in place in case something in your primary rig goes bad. It is hard to do a gig without a sound board. Do you have friends you know who could loan you a spare mixing console, speaker stack or amplifier? Now is the time to plan for such things.

In your planning you need to make some money available for repairing or replacing a blown speaker or an amplifier that goes bad and depending on the equipment you are using could cost some big bucks.

Besides all the equipment and the cords cables and accessories you will need to think about some insurance. Especially liability insurance if you are working in venues where people and equipment can mix. If a speaker falls on a patron or someone trips on a wire you laid down you may be in for some litigation and if someone is injured you may have to pay for their medical bills and other related costs. Liability insurance is not all that expensive but if you don't have it...good luck!

You also may want to set yourself up as a LLC company and have the company own all the equipment and be the legal entity for the sound company. It costs approximately $500 for the filing but if you are a sole proprietor the claimants could come after you personally for damages and in this litigation prone society you could be looking a some BIG money.

You maybe thinking to yourself that none of this will ever happen but just when you are having those thoughts is when BINGO something happens, and you are in the middle of a legal nightmare.

I have done enough concert sound in my life to know that the unthinkable happens and if you are not prepared you could be in for some rocky times.

Please do some real thinking about this and weigh all the factors, do a good business plan and discuss it with someone at your bank. Many banks have people who's sole job it is to help someone just starting out and they maybe a good source of advice. Talk to a good lawyer and find out what your options are as a LLC and what they would recommend for insurance. It maybe the best $200 you spend.

Again BEST OF LUCK and let us know how this is working...

RyanG wrote: ... I have put in 43 hours at work in the last 3 days Ill answer some questions when I can think in a straight line

You're preaching to the choir here, so hat's off to ya. That's the kind of work ethic and stamina you'll need for this business. Start stringing some 120 hour work weeks back to back and we'll talk about exhaustion.

This is a line of work that you almost have to love it, to do it. But unless you're an eccentric millionaire, you have to pay attention to the business end of it. Otherwise, you will get burned out from the workload AND end up digging yourself into a financial hole. If you've got the aptitude and a passion for it, it can be an interesting and profitable business.

Like any other business, if you under-value your services too drastically it becomes an exercise in futility. And the hours of this particular business are a bitch, so it's difficult to maintain a personal life, or day job, without some serious dedication to the lifestyle.

I've been watching Stealthy's thread for a while too, and I know how much he has put into getting to this point. He's been expanding his PA and gearing up pretty steadily since his first post. As he re-invests in himself and adds more value to the service he proves, hopefully he can get paid proportionally. That's the point of adding new gear. Give yourself better tools to do a better job, to add value to your services. I think he's done it on a pay-as-you-go plan too, which is good. Seldom is borrowing money for this stuff a good idea.

If you feel like the pay ceiling in your area is $125, scale your system so that's at least your 'break-even price' - so at least you're not losing money. Stealthy is getting $100-$125 for a 4-hour gig. (underpaid in my estimation), but don't forget to tack a couple hours on the front of that 4 hours for set-up / soundcheck, and an hour or two at the end to tear down and load out. So it's a 7-8 hour day including drive time.

When you get in the game, don't paint yourself into a corner pricewise. You obviously can't charge too much - or nobody will hire you. But likewise you can't be afraid to charge what you're worth. And use Max's numbers to justify the business part of it. You've got to recover the cost of equipment over time (the timeframe is up to you), and you've got to cover your operating expenses, and give yourself a little spending money at the end of the day. A smallish increase in your price can be the difference between swimming and treading water (or drowning). And honestly, although I detest the idea - there's a lot more money in DJing and karaoke. But you do what you gotta do.

If the other guy in your area is charging $125/night, that's probably all he's worth. The bands that are willing to work with him will only achieve a certain level of "success". It seems like you're interested in striving to be more professional, so you gotta do a better job and get that price up. Most bands will appreciate that you want to enhance their show, and if you and the band(s) do things right, you will all start to get paid better. BTW your "metalish" bands are very image conscious, they will surely buy into the show aspect of what you're selling.

Keep doing your homework and get a feel for the business. What the clubs are paying, what the bands are making, what the PA/Lights guys are making - all of those things go hand in hand and should help you think through your business model.

I hope that makes some sense.

RyanG wrote: Hey ya'll, Im Ryan from Western New York and Im looking to set up a pro audion and lighting system to do sound/lighting for the local band scene. The locals here deserve much better than they are getting now. Im just wondering if I am in the right forum to ask for advice on getting the proper set up.

So far Im thinking of going for a presonus studiolive board and other than that its all in the air. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Also with being new here but not new to forums I appologize if this isnt in the proper area. I think it is but may not be. :twisted:

You say that the locals deserve much better than they are getting. How do you know that? The locals may be getting what they can afford to pay. NY is full of great production and rental houses. If there is a market to be snagged, they likely know about it. Getting into the lower-end market is not a money making proposition. It is a labor of love. Most times, people fall out of love with it.

That said, I hope that you have researched and know what people are REALLY spending for production, how often they are spending it, how many of them bounce checks/have poor credit, how many carry insurance for the gigs, etc. Once you decide to do business, you will have to think like one. Protect you and your families assets.

Go look at what people are using now. Price it out. Talk to the client base and listen to what they want. Price it out. Do the math. See if it is even worth it. THEN you start looking for what you KNOW you can book vs. what would be cool and better than what people are booking now.

100-125 for a four hour gig. Thats what I get to come in to someone elses PA, set up mics, soundcheck, run the night and take down the mics. I bring some of my own equipment just in case there is an issue, but that is it. If I rent a PA and set up the whole thing and tear down after the night, you're looking at 750+. I will ususally get Allen and Heath or Soundcraft with decent effects plus JBL/QSC mains, QSC/Yamaha monitors(with a separate monitor board) and a few dozen lights. That's really a killer deal too. Don't forget to add something for gas.

If you have a $15k system, your system should get you 150+ a night and you should get something too. That something will depend on how you can make your system sound.

I don't know about an hourly rate. One gig for four hours still ties up the system all day and night in reality. Usually people rent for 10% of value.

Ok just a little update an the situation at hand, after talking with the singer of the band that I was garaunteed work with for the last week or two rumor has gotten out. Ive already been approached by two other bands that are looking to get out from underneath their current situation with the guy I spoke about earlier. Turns out the guy is using radio shack microphones and other similar gear and basically all of the bands he has been working with are revolting. I was also approached by two bar owners who are looking for a steady sound job with them. This is deffinately panning out and Ive been encouraged to get it going ASAP.

Ive also got Dewy, the former tour sound man, on board and he has given me his word that he will help in all ways possible, which is a good thing for a complete rookie to hear.

I need to have some gear brand recommendations to get this going. All suggestions will be welcomed. Thanks a bunch guys.

Mics: SM58s, several thereof.

Shure, Sennheiser, Yamaha, Mackie, Soundcraft.
(for mics, mixers, amps, speakers, that is; dbx makes good outboard but so do lots of others)

Almost anything except Behringer and "Bernie's Pro DJ Gear Shop"...

Any thoughts on Carvin gear?

I don't have any, no...
I know some on here do. IIRC they were considered usable.

(FWIW I haven't used much gear, ever... I just know what brands are touted a lot on this forum)

Go back and reread the posts that have recommendations. Even for small clubs, in this type of situation you are going to want at least a 24 channel board with as many aux as you can afford. Allen Heath, Soundcraft etc are the range of boards you should be shooting for. Cables. Soldering iron, solder, spare cable. Flashlights and batteries. In ear monitors will keep feedback to as minimum as you can get. New batteries every night for any wireless IEM's and microphones/belt packs.

Forget about sleep for the foreseeable future. You'll testing and patching and testing and repairing and testing..........

But first. Write your no-BS-good-enough-to-submit-to-a-bank business plan. This is what will keep you focused and from feeling lost about two weeks into your venture. Reverse plan everything from your first gig backwards down to putting gas in the rental truck.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

RyanG wrote: ... Turns out the guy is using radio shack microphones and other similar gear and basically all of the bands he has been working with are revolting...

I'll bet that does sound revolting. But seriously folks....

It's great that people are showing interest in pursuing more professional sound services. The promises and encouraging words are all nice, but that doesn't feed the bulldog, so go slow. You're the one who will sticking his neck out, the rest is just talk.

"Metalish" bands are more about screaming highs and thunderous bass rather than super-clear mid. So if "metalish" is the genre you will be working with most, I'd recommend a high-power top cabinet with a big juicy 2" horn and dual 15-inch woofers along with a separate 18" sub or dual 18" sub cabinet. The tops will be fullrange, but just not as sexy through the midrange.

I may be biased, but if I was rebuilding a respectable, rentable, rider-friendly club rig somewhere in your price-range I'd go with any combination of this gear.

Here are a few product lines I'd look at closely:

Mixers:
A&H (ZED, GL)
Soundcraft (LX7ii-24, GB4, GB8)
Yamaha (IM8-24)
Mackie (0nyx)

Speakers:
JBL (MRX, PRX, SRX, VRX)
E-V (TX, Tour X)
QSC (HPR)
EAW

Power Amps:
Crown (XLS or XTI Series)
Crest (CC or CD Series)
QSC (RMS or PLX Series)

EQs:
Klark (SQ1G)
BSS (FCS)
dbx (2231, iEQ31)

Mics:
Shure (SM58, SM57, Beta52A, SM81)
Sennheiser (MD421, e609, e604)
AKG (D112, C1000, C451)
Audix
EV

ProCo, Whirlwind, Rapco/Horizon Snakes and Cables and DI's

At your price-point, you will have to prioritize your spending. Personally, I'd rather have 4 great speakers than 8 mediocre speakers. 2 real power amps rather than 4 posers. etc. If things go your way, you can always add more quality pieces later as budget allows. Crappy gear just needs replaced - almost total loss. If you can't get everything you want, buy good quality building blocks.

If you're starting from scratch, powered speakers such as the JBL PRX or QSC HPR series can save you a lot of money in amps/racks/heavy speaker cables/& the cost of transporting all of the above) Plus it's extremely easy to expand if things take off for you.

On a similar note, compared to 16 normal PAR cans & conventional dimmers - 16 LED PAR cans and a DMX controller can give you a lot of versatility for less money in the end. They're not as bright as incandescents, but the fact that any can has the capability to be any color makes up for it. Add a small hazer and you're making stuff happen with less money.

Rock On!

Good stuff Hawk, but I gotta say, I swear by Live Wire cables. Affordable, lifetime warranty, and they are great quality. I use the Elite series 12awg speaker cables, and EXM series mic cables. I do have one of the deluxe M Series (tour grade), and wow, great stuff! I got a Mogami mic cable and it looks like its made of about 28 gauge wire!

As for my amps (Crown XLS's)....I am 100% happy with them. Even after hours outside in the sun, they only get WARM at most. Inside, I cant get them to break a sweat at all.

I would also look into the Yamaha MG Series mixers, and Yamaha S115v speakers

stealthy wrote: As for my amps (Crown XLS's)....I am 100% happy with them. Even after hours outside in the sun, they only get WARM at most. Inside, I cant get them to break a sweat at all.

Pfffft... you ain't doin' nuttin' till you see a Crown do the big BZZZZZZZZZZZT!!!!!.... poof....... whisps of nuked transformer..........

.......then silence out of probably 2 boxes....

..... but you're not quite sure which two!

That's when you're crankin'

Then you realize you got a nice big shipping bill...

Then too, you get a nice big shipping bill out of any amp you gotta send in.
(or get replacement parts for if you tech it yourself.)

Not been real happy with FCS... seen 3 of em on my bench before. They sound fine... just not up to severe road duty.

KT's da' bomb in my book.

Also look for some decent outboard...
Outboard
H3000 is one of the most versatile FX units, but the venerable favorites of TC's D-Two and M-One will suit most every rider.

Comps/Gates:
I'd seriously suggest at least a pair of comps on the two bus to act as a limiter, if nothing else. The dbx 160A's might be a decent choice, but I'm only going off my experience with the classic 160X's and 160XT's. 266XL's are ok, but you get what you pay for.

ACP88's are a good bang for the buck. They aren't all that, but decent enough that's I've had em' show up on plenty of gigs; local's, regional's and national's.

RyanG wrote: Any thoughts on Carvin gear?

Yeah. I have some thoughts. I have a couple of their guitars and a bass. Pretty good bang for the buck...
But their electronics are nothing to get excited over. Certainly not really PRO audio, more like P-V audio. Like DD stated, buy cheap, buy twice.
The clubs/bands/churches that I've seen get that gear and put it use are, 80% of the time going to replace it within 2 years with better stuff...

THis or that for some of the listed gear?

MIXER/CONSOLE

Allen & Heath GL2400-1415.54 (store display sold NIB w/ warranty, needs two faders replaced under warrant)

OR

Allen & Heath ZED 16R-2999.99 (pretty steep but the firewire feature would be pretty sweet)

MAIN SPEAKERS

Yamaha - C215V - $1359.99 pair 2x15" Drivers 2000w peak w/
QSC RMX5050 power amp $1599.99 (1800w @ 4ohm stereo)

SUBS

Yamaha - CW218V - $1459.99 pair 2x18" Subs 2400w peak w/
QSC RMX4050 power amp $1399.99

OR

Yamaha - CW118V - $999.99 pair 1x18" Subs 1200w peak w/
QSC PLX 1804 power amp $799.99

3 x JBL JRX 112m - 1x12" monitor 199.99(600+/-)

DBX 234-Crossover 239.99
DBX231- Dual 31band-EQ 199.99
No clue for compressor/limiter

OR

DBX Driverack PA+ 499.99

Other than Mics, stands, cables, and a snake what am I leaving out?

How does that rig look to you all? Which way would you go with the Console, Subs, and rack gear? Any POOR choices in the lot?

As for all of the speakers/subs you listed, go with the Yamaha Club Series V, not the Club Concert series, they are intended for permanent installs, and dont have carpet covering or metal corner protection. Also, I've heard alot that the "J" in JRX stands for junk.

You may want to consider 4 monitors instead of 3. Personally, I like to keep speakers even (for amp purposes), and also, it gets loud behind the drumset so give em 2 if available.

The QSC RMX series are nice, I would go with those if I didnt get my Crown XLS's, although they are a good bit heavier.

I think 4 subs will be overkill from the sound of the venues you are talking about working at. 2 will be plenty.

I'd skip on the Driverack....cool piece, but when I was looking into it (and posted on here), I dont remember why but something steered me from it. I dont have time to look through my posts for it right now though. But the DBX pieces are all good.