I know this will open a can worms for all the professionals out there, but I master with a $300 program called Reason. I have consumer speakers my friend gave me when he got surround sound and two pairs of cheap headphones. I know all three sets very well. Not a single person who I've shown my masters to, compared to the professional version, have ever noticed a difference. Sure, about 1000 mastering engineers out of a world of 6 billion would notice something, but no one has a mode-treated car with Genelec speakers in the doors. No one turns on their iPod and listens with mastering headphones...
Sorry if that came out a bit harsh - I really just wanted to put some perspective on the amount of money that is spent on mastering. If someone can convince me that I am wrong, feel free to let me have it! :-)
To start out, I have the feeling that some people think that I am talking about a good final mix, and not about mastering. To clarify, these are the devices and processes I use when mastering within Reason 3.0:
multi-band compressors, stereo imagers, high frequency harmonic enhancers, master reverb, dynamic filtering, upward expanders, plus all the usual devices: compression with side chain input, EQ, limiter, volume maximizer with soft clip. I'm currently working on a Reason patch to emulate the sound of the Vitalizer hardware.
Aztec clarified this for me, thanks!
aztec wrote: More over "limiter/volume maximizer/compressor/expander" in which you are referring as separate things are the same piece of gear used in different settings !
Now, on to the debate. :-) I know experts are passionate, and I really do appreciate your input.
jdsdj98 wrote: Wow. Your rates must be great since your investment has been so minimal.
Yes, they are! Business 101: If you want higher profits, don't raise prices, rather cut your costs.
jdsdj98 wrote: My girlfriend can't hear the difference between a 24 bit/192kHz recording and an MP3, and I bet the people that you've shown your masters to have similar credibility, or lack thereof. Have you ever asked a good mastering engineer to evaluate your work? Are you willing to state that your work is of the same caliber as theirs? Apparently you are.
My girlfriend can't either, despite my attempts at teaching her... :-) For that matter, neither can 99% of my target audience. If I marketed my CDs to mastering engineers, sure, my masters are horrible. Luckily, I've decided that a target demographic of mastering engineers is too limiting and too demanding an audience.
jdsdj98 wrote: And rather than offer that as an excuse for calling yourself a mastering engineer (something I am not) and butchering your work calling it "mastering", I say that just demonstrates the problems in pro audio today. Everyone calls themselves an engineer. Everyone thinks they can skimp on the cash outlay and just do it themselves. It reminds me of the cover of Mix a few months ago: "Who cares about quality?" Obviously you don't.
No one but mastering engineers cares about that level of quality. No one but mastering engineers can even hear that level of quality. Mastering the business of subtlety, and subtlety isn't noticed by the average ear. I'd bet $15,000 that your masters beat the socks off of my masters, but I'd also bet that people like our girlfriends wouldn't be able to tell the difference. People like our girlfriends are the consumers. The cost of improving a master from 'good enough' to 'professional grade' increases exponentially. $15,000 just so some professional mastering engineers will say, "that's a good master!"? I have better ways to spend my money.
jdsdj98 wrote: I, however, will not try to talk you out of what you're doing. I'm able to admit my inadequacies and work harder to get better. ... That's my competitive advantage over people like you in the job market. Keep it up. It creates opportunity for those of us that care about audio quality.
I feel like this is a bit of an old school vs new school issue. It's not that I settle for crappy quality, I just have some relatively new technology (Reason 3.0) that allows me to get 'good enough' masters when previously I couldn't dream of having the cash for pro mastering gear. I think the devices and processes listed at the start of this post is a decent list of gear. All I lack is a treated room and expensive monitors. But if I listen to reference material on my consumer speakers, and try to emulate the sound, will the result be close enough? I know answers to that question in this forum might be biased since if it is close enough, your jobs are suddenly threatened.
The same way musicians in the early part of the twentieth century felt when recording became possible. Their unions banned members from recording thinking it would put live musicians out of jobs.
I’ve always wondered if there’s been any research on whether or not there is a significant psychological advantage to professionally mastered music when compared to ‘good enough’ mastered music to justify the costs of pro mastering. I haven’t charged anyone yet for my ‘good enough’ mastering services, but I feel like this cost-effective-for-the-quality method could fill a consumer demand in semi-professional recording.
I really don't mean for this to be a flame or an attack on the usefulness of mastering engineers. The way technology is going, I think this is an important topic for everyone interested in mastering to discuss. I am perfectly willing to be convinced that my $300 methods really stand between me and a sucessful career. Let's hear the evidence! :-)
Comments
This is a fascinating thread. My two cents: I've been recording
This is a fascinating thread. My two cents:
I've been recording myself for about 5 years, mastering myself for about 3. Finally I feel ready to record the "real thing", and I will mix it and master it at home, but of course, THEN I'm sending it out for pro mixing and mastering, no matter what.
Still, my mixes have gotten pretty good. I listen to some of my old ones and laugh. Maybe my mixes are good because I spend about a million years doing them, leaving them alone, going back to them with fresh ears, checking them on every conceivable system - in other words, it takes me a lot longer, and a lot more to get a good mix, but I've been pretty determined.
Now I have used two pro mastering studios on two of my songs during this period, just to see how it would sound. One of them, here in Toronto has been around for 30 years and has a lot of big name clients. Two things he did that didn't impress me - the final masters of one song contain an audible clip, very "ouch" worthy that was not there to begin with. And at the end of the song, there's audible pumping in the compression. That I was not impressed with. The rest of the mastering was okay.
Another studio I sent one of the same songs to had it come back and it was okay, but opening it up and looking at the waves, you could see them all cut off because he'd compressed it so much - and I'd specifically told him that I don't like things overcompressed and was not in a loudness war.
I researched these two studios before going to them and they're indeed "up there" to begin with, so I was surprised by these "infractions."
True, I couldn't tell too much of a difference between their masters and mine, but then I only have whatever speakers I have and I don't know how the masters will translate across a broad range of speakers.
I'll still be getting my stuff pro mixed and mastered when the time comes, but I'll always try it myself too.
One thing I was left with by both studios, is that no one cares as much about my work as I do. So speak up and tell them what you want and don't want while hopefully being able to trust them to do what's right as well.
Now, I've met some people who master their own stuff through software and maybe a bit of hardware too. After years of doing it, some of them really are quite good at it. It DOES happen. Of course, they're mainly working with their own music - who knows what would happen if they mastered someone else's. And I'll bet of course that their stuff would indeed sound better with pro mastering.
But one thing IS happening. People are getting better and better at it - and the cheap, simple software is getting better and better. It will probably take a long time, if at all, for this to catch up with great mastering, but there are glimmers of it.
I also think mastering can be subjective. Some of my favorite albums that have been remastered sound awful on the second attempt.
And there are horribly mastered albums out there that are classics nonetheless.
Actually, has anyone heard the new Kate Bush album Aerial? Now I have a serious problem with the mastering on that album - what happened?
Two cents over.
M.M.
Two things he did that didn't impress me - the final masters of
Two things he did that didn't impress me - the final masters of one song contain an audible clip, very "ouch" worthy that was not there to begin with. And at the end of the song, there's audible pumping in the compression.
An idiot. Did not take the time to actually listen to the project. Many mastering engineers listen to the first min, then use a setting, and then render.
Horrible.
One thing I was left with by both studios, is that no one cares as much about my work as I do. So speak up and tell them what you want and don't want while hopefully being able to trust them to do what's right as well.
Good decision. Cretique the mastering and keep sending it back until you are happy. Do that or get a refund and go elsewhere. You actually may be able to do better yourself...actually..since you have a vested intrest.
also think mastering can be subjective. Some of my favorite albums that have been remastered sound awful on the second attempt.
And there are horribly mastered albums out there that are classics nonetheless.
Actually, has anyone heard the new Kate Bush album Aerial? Now I have a serious problem with the mastering on that album - what happened?
More idiots.
The most expensive studio in our town routinely cranks out some
The most expensive studio in our town routinely cranks out some of the worst masters of any local studio. They offer a studio training course too, $5,000 for 6 weeks of part time "introduction to audio". :D
anyone heard the new Kate Bush album Aerial? Now I have a serious problem with the mastering on that album
No I haven't but this is highly intriguing. What problems are there?
Headchem and Audioworkstation, can you please email me: christia
Headchem and Audioworkstation, can you please email me: christian.naths@edu.sait.ca if you need to use my ftp space. I set up a folder, just ftp to mainevent@trainwreckdiaries.ca/
email me for the password and you can upload the original and each upload your finished master there. I would rather you zipped the original, and I am assuming your finished master will be just one .wav file, but those can get big, if you could zip it too, that would be great.
99% of my work comes from recommendations. If you are looking to
99% of my work comes from recommendations. If you are looking to get your stuff mastered, ask around. Ask your friends, ask your friends friends. Then get on the the phone and talk or email the ME. If there is something not quite right or an issue, get on the phone or email the ME. I can't think of anyone that goes away unhappy with the work I do, not because I nail it every single time, but because I care to make it right if I don't. I know plenty of ME's that think along the same lines.
This whole thread is starting to blur the lines between guys doing stuff because they can and don't have the money to try alternatives, and guys who do this stuff professionally. I have no problem with people mastering their own music with the tools that are available in software today. Tomorrow there will be better tools.
when your young and poor, you work on your own car. when you have better things to do with your resources, you hire someone to work on it for you, especially if your livelyhood depends on getting around.
Hm I'm curious to what the result of this will be : ) I must sa
Hm I'm curious to what the result of this will be : ) I must say I was quite amazed with the mastering audiowkstation did to my mix wich, to be quite honest sounded very bad before it ;) so I'd very much like to hear what he can do to an already good-sounding track from headchem (at least in my opinion)
headchem wrote: I really don't mean for this to be a flame or an
headchem wrote: I really don't mean for this to be a flame or an attack on the usefulness of mastering engineers.
Fair enough, but think of it this way... you enter a room full of scientists and comment that you think Newton & Einstein are overrated... naturally, you're gonna attract some flames.
headchem wrote: The way technology is going, I think this is an important topic for everyone interested in mastering to discuss.
It's been discussed many times... try searching the topics. Not saying that you can't do some reasonable quality work ITB, but professional mastering with hardware processing usually wins.
headchem wrote: Let's hear the evidence! :-)
The evidence is in record stores, on internet music stores, on millions of "pods", and on radio & television.
The difference in professional mastering and home ITB mastering consists of these elements, among others:
1. a good mastering room.
2. good monitoring.
3. good gear, hardware and software.
4. lots of experience.
5. the tenacity to do the work.
6. ability to adapt to different styles and trends in music.
7. good ears.
8. a good track record.
9. able to work with people in a positive way.
10. a good technical and broad musical knowledge.
So is the price of professional mastering really worth it?
The results of this thread will tell ;) But I would agree that f
The results of this thread will tell ;) But I would agree that for professional quality (broadcast on commercial radio, recording albums for music stores) you need a professional.
Calgary wrote: Sander that's pretty nervy sending in tracks you cut with pirated software to audiowkstation for mastering. Bottom of the barrel IMO. :roll:
lol no need to drag this discussion over to every other topic where I post. Very mature of you indeed. For your information, I've just switched to Kristal audio engine thanks to some very helpfull advice from IIRs. And I'm probably going to switch to tracktion. Legally.
Now I'm done with this. And about your post, talking about the bottom of the barrel.. I find this forum a quite pleasant place to post, too bad the're always people like you, thinking that they can flame new members without consequence. Well you can be proud of yourself. Really.
Well Damn. headchem has let us down. I got 45 of 11PM right now.
Well Damn. headchem has let us down. I got 45 of 11PM right now..and my time I sat aside to get the tracks is almost over. Needless to say, I knew better than to put off a paying gig for this..and should have known better than to even set aside time for it. I could have gone out to dinner tonight..as Wend night is my night to do this.
So..Lesson number one to headchem based on the Honorable Mr. Tubbs list is:
5: the tenacity to do the work.
Grade 0%
8. a good track record.
Grade 0%
9. able to work with people in a positive way.
Grade 0%
Xiam set aside the server space and communicated with me via email.
I set aside time to do what you asked.
You are now TOO LATE.
What is worse, this post will be here 5 years from now..so you definitely are NOT getting off to a good start.
Next chance, after the first of the year for me..If I decide to do it at all.
Edited for typos...
Needless to say, I knew batter than to put off a paying gig for
Needless to say, I knew batter than to put off a paying gig for this..and should have known better than to even sat aside time for it. I could have gone out to dinner tonight..as Wend night is my night to do this.
Alas I don't think any of us actually expected headchem to make it. FWIW audiowkstation I strongly respect your confidence, optimism and that you attempted this despite your misgivings. Next time I have a mastering budget ready for something I will contact you and see if you have room to squeeze me in. I'm likely to spend 2-3 thousand on mastering over the next year, so this thread may not have been a total waste...
Xian set aside the server space and communicated with me via email.
Xian's a standup guy. 8-)
For that kind of money, you can get 250 to 400 mins of real line
For that kind of money, you can get 250 to 400 mins of real linear running time mastering done by yours truly. (plus any analog tape costs..if you want to keep the reference spools on hand..which if you don't have the machine, they make great wall decorations)
Pro mastering is a great value.
He seemed quite a polite guy with (by some) considered radical p
He seemed quite a polite guy with (by some) considered radical points of view and with a inviting way of discussing things with people. Some could actually take an example from that.
Let's first listen to what he has to say, altough it's incredibly stupid of him that he's letting a chance like this pass by..
One would think that 22 hours...to the Min. would be enough time
One would think that 22 hours...to the Min. would be enough time to get his act on this and get the files uploaded to Xiams server.
He may have a good excuse.
On any given day..if I have 20 hours notice, I can squeeze in any downloads on the other box. Just a few mouse clicks and it is done. Does not require but a min. to start it.
And this is if I am 5,000 miles from the facility as well.
(Happens)
20 hours hmm? I might have overlooked that part. Ok. You're righ
20 hours hmm? I might have overlooked that part. Ok. You're right.
Too bad.. It was just getting interesting.. I'm still impressed by the way you made my cymballs sound good where I already gave up hope (and I STILL can't manage to get the sound right, the term mastering engineer must stand for something I guess;) ), so I was kinda looking forward to what you would do with headchems track.
Actually...22 hours to the min. But no worries folks. Their wil
Actually...22 hours to the min.
But no worries folks. Their will be other oppurtunities..and Sander 8, thanks for the props on your track.
In my estimation, your tweeters are either "dull" or your room is overpadded..because you had way too much top end. Also mixing is not like mastering..so the loudspeaker balance can throw you off on a mix pretty large..sometimes too much for mastering.
The name of the game with mastering is to take the mix, which is in the professional realm and convert it to the consumer realm so that no matter the loudspeakers or the room, the music should sound "good"..and this is why the same speakers you mixed on...are actually showing you "better sound" in mastering.
It is not an easy feat. Takes a load of years to be able to "nail it" consistantly.
Audiowkstation, and everyone else: I'm embarrassed to show my fa
Audiowkstation, and everyone else: I'm embarrassed to show my face in this thread... It's exam week for me, and I forced myself to not check all the messages until I'd finished my projects / studied for exams - which was obviously a mistake. I really didn't expect for such a quick turn-around, and I feel terrible about the time set aside and wasted because of me. I just didn't know. If it weren't for having $22.48 in the bank I'd seriously pay you for your wasted time... I feel terrible. It was the chance of a lifetime for me, too.
I don't know what else to say but sorry. I pulled two all-nighters in a row and even then just barely finished all my school work.
I guess in this day and age, it's a strange thing to go 20 hours without checking one's email. Sorry for letting you all down.
No worries. Just remember, when you do THIS..for a living (i/e,
No worries.
Just remember, when you do THIS..for a living (i/e, I have to make a few hundred every day..or the 3 leases and 3 electric bills do not get paid) it is your top priority/duty. If you are going to entertain the idea of "doing something" you do it..less it will not get done. Your priorities are solid. Schoolwork is number one with you right now and rightfully so. You don't owe me anything..and..I did say, you may have a good excuse..just be cautious when working with those who make a living of doing this to put toast ad jam on the table for the hungry mouths, (pros) we will hold feet to the fire.
I had a client receintly write me a bum check and to anyone...it would be sizeable..but no despair..everyone has problems. No one escapes them...but we have to work them out.
It would have been a good idea if...you would say...I will have time XXX to do this..and therefore make certain it is time YOU are free as well.
What sucks is when you have to pay a few bills..the deadline is near..and a major label wants you to fix another engineers mess-ups for cash (check) and requires it to be done in 3 days (a big project, video/audio/DVD rendering) and you put your paying clients on back burner because you MUST have the money..and their purchase order did not get in the system and you don't get paid..and you lose your other customers. This is when what you do businesswise is not let your mouth overload your ass. Thankfully...my other customers are kind people and I over estimated their project time..and was able to retain their trust and complete their jobs.
In this business..it is a business. You are a CEO. Chief executive officer. The only advantage to the position is you can say NO.
I completely understand if you don't want / don't have time to c
I completely understand if you don't want / don't have time to continue the contest, but if you're still game we can set a time where I promise an unmastered version of the song will be available on my server. Thanks for the server offers, by the way, but I have everything needed for posting the files. I understand that this might be quite some time in the future now...
I will check my calender. I want to do it..but I need to find a
I will check my calender. I want to do it..but I need to find a real slot...where I don't have any outside obligations. Really.. it does not look good until after years end..because I have to get into a mind set, the studio is not at the house and I need X amount of hours of private time..which is being squeezed rather thin right now. Lot of stuff going on..out of my immediate control.
No worries. I am hoping I can do it soon...if not..one of the other pros here may offer a free mastering job for potential clients.
Another thing..I have to really leave open slots and "guess" if they will be filled. Sometimes I get a project bail on me..and this gives very little notice..for the free ones..so you should put the track where it is available quick. If a hole comes up...I will be happy to do it. I do like to:
-Listen to each track a few times and make notes.
-Make decisions what direction I need to take. This portion is almost like meditation. I have to "place" the "final product" in my mind, before I begin.
-I have steps I take that are proven time and time again I have to lay out.
-Do the work.
-Analyze it against my mind set.
-Make touch up adjustments.
-Listen one last time when the file is redbook compatable (actually burn a CD and take to the other system)
Deliver the file.
audiowkstation wrote: PS...Thank you Xian for coming to the tabl
audiowkstation wrote: PS...Thank you Xian for coming to the table with this.
Hey, no worries, sorry it didn't work out. In headchem's defence, I'm sure we all know how school can be.
I look forward to hearing the results of this contest, even if it is in the new year.
Audiowkstation, and everyone else: I'm embarrassed to show my fa
Audiowkstation, and everyone else: I'm embarrassed to show my face in this thread... I feel terrible. It was the chance of a lifetime for me, too.
Well, I guess the only way to save face is to kill yourself! 8-)
Just kidding....But this was a pretty cool offer. I agree that your tracks are pretty good, and was curious to see the result.
I'm still impressed by the way you made my cymballs sound good where I already gave up hope (and I STILL can't manage to get the sound right, the term mastering engineer must stand for something I guess;) ),
If there were mastering engineers around a few hundred years ago, they would surely be burned as witches. :D
Just so everyone knows, there's a new thread with the actual fil
Just so everyone knows, there's a new thread with the actual files in it:http://recording.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=33803&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 so check it out.
anyone heard the new Kate Bush album Aerial? Now I have a seriou
anyone heard the new Kate Bush album Aerial? Now I have a serious problem with the mastering on that album
No I haven't but this is highly intriguing. What problems are there?
Well, one, it's not loud enough. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mean the loudness wars. I mean this thing is so low in volume on every system I've played it on, that in some cases, you have to sit right in front of the speakers. Come on! When transferred to my minidisc portable for listening, it gets drowned out by everything when simply walking down the street.
There's also the occasional fuzzy non-musical sound that simply shouldn't be there, and a couple of clips. This surprises me since kate Bush is known for attention to every detail. There are some low bass notes that rumble all but the most expensive speakers on one song. May have sounded good in the studio - but know what it will do to other systems!
On the other hand, the dynamics and richness in this music is WAY ahead of everything else. I guess they used little compression for mastering and on that level, it sounds GREAT!
Kate Bush not given control? Literally impossible and could neve
Kate Bush not given control? Literally impossible and could never happen. Maybe she didn't go to the mastering session. Or maybe they were little blips that she overlooked because the takes were good. But trust me, I'm familiar with her methods and career - if its out there, she approved every tiny detail!
Literally impossible and could never happen. I respectfully dis
Literally impossible and could never happen.
I respectfully disagree. 8-)
Who knows though, maybe the problem is her having too much control. Obviously no mastering engineer would mix a commerical album that low of their own volition. I'll have to hear it though to see what you mean before I take a position on it one way or another. 8-)
Well what I'm saying is that she's known to be a megolomaniac wi
Well what I'm saying is that she's known to be a megolomaniac with all aspects of her work. When she has musicians come in to do parts for her, most of them say they've never seen someone go through the parts bit by bit spotting the tininest flaws and making them do it over, etc. etc. Plus she has 100% creative control of her work and has since the beginning when she was signed to EMI.
Stories abound of her redoing takes because of the most insignifcant flaw that only she could hear - not the engineers or producers, etc. So it's hard to imagine that she would let any kind of inferior sound out.
The album sounds great mostly. It's one of the richest recordings I've heard in awhile. The volume is too low, many people have stated. And some speakers are having problems handling the song Prologue on the second disc. I'd be interested to hear your take on that particular song.
Have you heard Peter Gabriel's Up from a couple of years ago? Th
Have you heard Peter Gabriel's Up from a couple of years ago? That's another speaker rumbler in places too. Don't know if he mastered it, but he did record and mix it - first time he did all that himself - and you can tell, but I love the result and the album.
Now watch you come back and say about Kate's album: "What are you talking about? That's the best mastered album I've ever heard!!!".
I hope headchem can get on with this..with xian's help (Thank yo
I hope headchem can get on with this..with xian's help (Thank you xian)..because my next window of oppurtunity looks like after years end.