I have been using Studio Projects C3's with Recorderman's technique (which I found very inspiring btw, the sound is great). I've been liking them very much in the space

I doubt you'll get significant kick sounds from any overhead pair unless you stick them in front of the bass drum.

Originally posted by heinz:
I have been using Studio Projects C3's with Recorderman's technique (which I found very inspiring btw, the sound is great). I've been liking them very much in the space I'm working in.

I doubt you'll get significant kick sounds from any overhead pair unless you stick them in front of the bass drum.

This weekend I am going to try using my two B1's like that.

Your set up is sweet. Any recordings posted anywhere?

For the kick, I know I will need extra support, and I will get it from my beta52. I am with you on that. I just did not want people to suggest classic cymbal mics.

Thanks,

Jim

a CAVEAT from me.....

...This "technique" was/is (hopefully obviously) only one of dozens of ways to mic overheads. The mics you use, the song, arrangement, kit, drummer's style all play significant roles in determinig how you record. Sometimes they need to be out front, high, low, wide spaced pair, mono, etc. Several adjustments may be necessary to achieve the proper ballance.
I myself am always striving to hear a balanced image (toms in the proper stereo demension, kick and snare near center, balance between drums nad cymbals, ect.).
I love using Royer 121 on overheads, but being figure eight they increase the difficulty in acheiving that magic stereo imgage...of course going for mono solves this...and not being a slave to symmetry (as I am) helps also.
Experiment,experiment,experiment.
Those of you doing your own music are ahead of the game in that you have the final sya and can experiment more freely. Those of us that are usually capturing performances for someone else are usually under the axe of covering all bases....the main reason for over micing a kit. The big ambient "Bonham" sound the producer likes when we're tracking may ba a problem for him and the mixer later whwn they're trying to change the overall character to the drums, after overdubbing a gazzilion parts that we never thought of let alone heard when actually tracking.

That said....in answer to a previous querry...AKG451 do work well in this app. Their focused, bright and small (can be place easily).

Thanks Mr. Recorderman for the great tips, I've been reading the board for quite a while and have learned an incredible amount from you and others here. I of course have the advantage of a stationary setup for my own compositions, and have been moving mics around my kit for a few months... this low/high technique has yielded the best sound so far on this kit in my room.

Originally posted by jdier:
Your set up is sweet. Any recordings posted anywhere?

Thank you Jim. Lots of recording but nothing released yet using this rig. There's older stuff on my website, but I have been studying recording techniques and writing material for the last year. This will hopefully yield something soon, but meanwhile I am enjoying delving into the minutia of drum micing.

Recorderman,

What are your thoughts on LD vs SD mics for the overheads in the configuration we have been discussing. What are he advantages/disadvantages of each?

Jim

MY band records each practice once in order to maintain baseline for our work.......

We've been using a single AKG C1000S - although we do have a pair - and it picks up everything - and i do mean everything - in the room.

The drums are clean and crisp - good sound from cymbals to bass drum - killer snare sound. It amazes me how it picks up the bass drum. The mic is 8' in the air - roughly 4' in front of and about 2' off center of my kit. The high hat is also very prominent.

I'm going to pick up another pair and try just a 2 mic setup as an experiment for the drums alone.

But i gotta tell you - seeing as i've seen the pair advertised for $299 - i believe this is one heck of a buy for mics of this quality.

Happy Hunting

Rod

Our basic setup is a stereo set of Neumann KM184's overhead, shure beta 52 in the kick, sm57 snare, beta 56 bottom of snare, sennheiser md421's toms and a room mic about 8 feet in front of the kit. but we'll be working our new shure ksm44 in there somewhere, probably as an ambient room mic, or in front of the bass drum head.

the km 184's pick up everythimg, even a healthy dose of bass drum, the other mics work really well to emphasize the individual drums.

we've managed to get a good sound out of it, but the most important thing is a good drummer and a well tuned kit.

pics http://quanzar.com/drummic.htm

Great Pic's guys! very helpful to actually see everyones kits and techniques...anymore?

i use recorderman's technique with a pair of schoeps omnis for the overheads and either a D4, 421, or an re20 for the kick

I'll be moving to a pair of R84's as overheads and the schoeps in the kick as soon as i can afford another one
Marsh

I've been recording drums where I wanted a lot of room sound and somewhat . . . vintage? . . . feel. I tried to get the main sound out of a stereo pair about 6 feet in front of the kit and about 6 feet hi, on the axis of the snare and kick. XY worked pretty good, but I settled on the split pair with a screen between them. It's not for everything, but for real acoustic, semi-garage kind of sound it's pretty darn good.

I've been using SM-57's for everything recently on my kit...2 for overheads, 1 in the kick, and one on the snare, with pretty good results. I've only been doing this for fun recently, until I can afford some good overheads, and a good kick mic. I don't really play drums much, the set up is more for when friends record with me. The kit is a 7 piece, and I was thinking I would use 57's on the toms (all 5 of them!) and the snare, then get 2 Rode NT3's for overheads (opinions on this?), and a Beta 52 for the kick (or opinions on this?). I've also been considering getting a pair of SP B1's, and trying those out as overheads.

Without meaning to sound gushing, I can honestly state that switching to Recorderman's OH method did more to improve my recorded drum tracks than any mic, preamp, or compressor purchase I ever made.

It almost doesn't matter what mics I use. Oktava MC012's, AKG 414's, unmatched tube mics - they all sound slamming. Apparently having the kick and snare being phase coherent has a lot more effect on the sound than the particular mic choice (within reason, of course). I just ordered a pair of Josephson C42's, and I expect they will also sound great.

would you reccomend the Oktava MC012's? im looking to buy some overheads, and im kind of lost as to what to get.

r0x0r...I use a set of ADK A51 Ser IIIs...love em! Sound pretty darn good on many things, but really seem to excel on OHs...

just a note: i'm sure jake gets great drum sounds with his set-up, but in the posted picture, that is clearly NOT using Recorderman's overhead technique, just in case anyone was confused.

the thing about MC012's is they can be very nice mics IF you get a decent pair. The quality control at Oktava is legendary for its absence.

hahahhahahahahahaa

Originally posted by jdier:
Recorderman,

What are your thoughts on LD vs SD mics for the overheads in the configuration we have been discussing. What are he advantages/disadvantages of each?

Jim

The answer to that depends upon an examination and consideration of the following:
1. Budget (how much can you spend on a pair of mics)
2. Room. Are the drums in a big ambient room aor a small very dead space? If the former I'd leave more towards Large Diaphram or better yet Royer121 ribbons. If a dead space I'd get the smaller diaphram jobs...oe agian the royers.
2. Cymbals. Bright Paiste or darker Zildjains...

I use for most recording what I call the "Law of Opposites".
This means that If I have a bright source i ususally choose a darker mic/pre/compressor/ect chain. If I'm working on a darker source then I opt for brighter mics, etc.
Small diaphram condense mics tend to sound "brighter" on average than their large diaphram brothers.
Experimentaion is a good way to go. If you could get ahold of one mic each (LDC,SDC,Dynamic, Ribbom) and palce them in the same location and switch between them you'd get your best answer.
Also don't forget that no tow engineers go for the same sound anyway...we all have our pref's of what we like...so experiment.

I still haven't finnished digging royer121's as OH myself, Although thyey are much more difficult to place and achieve the stereo image I like (figure 8 pattern that they are)

...thanks all for the kind words

sorry for any confusion. i was joinig in more on the mic choice side of this, suggesting a good small condenser mic, and how i was able to get good representation of all the drums, including the kick.

jake

Originally posted by jake_eskedal:
sorry for any confusion. i was joinig in more on the mic choice side of this, suggesting a good small condenser mic, and how i was able to get good representation of all the drums, including the kick.

jake

Jake,

no confusion on my part, and welcome. Is always good to see another person from CT....

I had relatives who lived in Andover that had a cottage at Coventry Lake....... loved it when i was a kid.

Used to go to Art Halls (Halls Archery) when i was a kid as well - had a lot of great times out your way.

So again: Welcome

This place is great -

"Live and Learn in RO"

another old saying i just made up.

Happy Hunting

Rod

Jake, your pictures and comments were useful to me.

Recorderman, Thanks for getting in on this. I have done almost exactly what you suggested given my somewhat limited budget. (Budget primarily limited by a competing addition to buying basses and guitars!)

I now have inline pads for my B1's (which will likely wind up being used elsewhere given the low ceiling room.)

I also picked up a matched pair of Oktava 012's

I will be tracking this coming weekend and share the results.

Thanks to EVERYONE who got involved in this thread...

I would like to hear some samples of peoples results, anyone have anything to post?

I've been hacking on, it was recently recorded with the drum setup shown in the pic I posted earlier in the thread. Overheads are the C3's in cardoid setting, padded.

Heinz,

Killer. Tell me about the kick sound. I am curious what mic you are using and what type of compression and EQ you might be applying.

I will try to post a clip early next week. (you set the bar a bit higher than I had wanted it!)

Great sound.

Jim

anybody tried the rode nt-5's as overheads?

Heard great things about the nt5's, never tried one yet though...

Jim thanks for the listen and feedback! Still not happy with it but that's why they call it 'work-in-progress' heh.

Kick is mic'd with a 441U, some eq added to fill in sub bass (3db boost around 50Hz) and high-end is rolled off. Underneath that is a drum sub mix pushed through distressors set to Opto with a little Dist2 fizz. Lastly, there is a hallway mic (r121) panned left, with a copy nuked and panned right.

Right now I need to work on getting more low-mid or slap from the kick. It is a very dense mix so almost everything has low end (sub 100hz) rolled off to let the kick breathe. Working the bottom end has always been a challenge for me, my monitoring system is deficient in that range.

Thanks guys, I'm glad the input is welcome.

Rod, It is nice seeing fellow CT people on here. I'm just getting started with recording and it's nice to see that there are others out here in the sticks. I actually grew up out your way in Canterbury, and I was frequently Central Village a lot a few years ago to have my problematic transmission fixed in my old Dodge Colt.

Jake

Originally posted by jdier:
Heinz,
...I will try to post a clip early next week. (you set the bar a bit higher than I had wanted it!)

Great sound.

Jim

For better or worse, here are two short samples of the work we did this weekend.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2999&alid=-1

Let me know if that link does not work.

STEREO: I have two beta 57's, one 2 stickslength above the snare center the other, right over the drummers right shoulder (also 2 sticks from snare center, but this one pointed more at the kick) They both are about 3 sticks from where the beater hits the kick.

KICK: I have a sm57 in the kick right behind where the beater hits the head and a Beta 52 right outside the kick.

SNARE is just a single sm57 right at the rim, about 1" up, pointed at angle towards the point halfway between the center and the rim.

I have no effects or eq on the overheads or the beta 52 on the kick. I put light timeworks compression on the 57 in the kick (which is also eq'ed to bring out the mid attack.) The snare 57 is very, very low in the mix and has been eq'ed to bring up the mids and also has a heavy load of CakewalkFX small bright room reverb on it.

Excuse the vocals and guitars... We are really still at the "can we get this to sound right, how does it all work stage..." so you are hearing a bunch of scratch garbage which we are using to validate tempos, lyrics and song format.

Everything you hear here will be tossed once we are comfortable that we are using all of our equipment correctly and that we have our room in good acoustic shape...

ANY (and I mean ANY) suggestions for improvement will be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim

[ December 01, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: jdier ]

OK, in listening myself now it seems like I could have done a better job making the mp3's... the lo quality samples really do not let you hear much. The higher quality samples seem to be much closer to what I am hearing when playing the disk.

(Enough excuses... let me have it.)

tweak the height &/or position (where mics are aiming) to gain better separation between the hat & ride. That is if there in the typicall position of being on opposite sides of the kick.
Also, get the level of the kick&snare up there. In general if the kick is @ 0 db then the everything else on the kit can be a few db lower (to get the kick up).

I wanted to get a photo on here of the latest mic setup I've been using on the drums, but since I'm laptop illiterate it'll have to wait.The more of Recorderman's ideas I read the more I know I'm doing it right and have been for many years.Thanx guy, and if you ever need a second let me know...

As for drums, I usually limit the set size to include only those drums that are gonna get hit in each song.This really cuts down on the bleed.
Lately, I've been using what I would call the 4 overhead setup.This consists of a pair of SD's, one above the hat @two sticks distance and the other over the drummers right shoulder at the same relative heighth. Next, I use a pair of LD's about 3 feet out and above the level of the highest cymbal.These I tip into the set until the edgyness of the cymbals dissappears and the toms and kick appear.These are so good, I could use only them and the kick for the whole set.Some songs I do.Then I use two mics on the kick.One at the head for the click and one at the end of the kick for the whoomp.I top and bottom mic the snare.Both mics being chosen for rejection and for a nice snap in their response.I use no EQ on anything and only a touch of compression going in on the inside kick and the top snare mics.The great thing about this setup is at mix..Theres lots of options and lots of ways to go to tailor a sound to the song.You can compress the hell out of stuff and since the bleed on the close miced stuff is low you dont increase the noise factor too much.The double set of overheads allows a room sound for a more open and vintage take if you so desire.You can leave out the fronting mics and it goes classic rock with the pull of a fader....For mix for us at the moment, I'm compressing the kick and snare through a separate bus and mixing in the overs to taste.

Probably the biggest help in ALL of this, is having a drummer whos convinced that rudiments are sent from God and we ought to obey His Law. :p:

it really depends on the music i'm recording at the time and the sound i'm going for on a particular project. i really don't follow any particular formula. i'm not trying to deliberately sound vague it's just a really subjective thing.

Originally posted by jdier:

For better or worse, here are two short samples of the work we did this weekend.

Threads always spring back to life when yer outta town... :w:

Hey Jim I checked out your mp3's, for this style of music I think the drums sound good, that is they complement the musical style. Only idea I had was to try tweaking that Cakewalk reverb on the snare as it's seems to be sucking energy out. Or add pre-delay to the reverb if it offers it to keep the attack energy. I think the snare level is right, but agree with RM on the kick level.

Davedog interesting post may have to try that dual-pair setup sometime. I never considered what having 2 pairs of stereo mics on one kit might present in terms of stereo image though... how do you align the pairs in the spectrum?

heinz...Each mic gets its own track in this instance so in reality I'm recording each in mono.I'm finding that as the mix goes, I'm using the LD's more and more and the true overheads less.Some of it has to do with the style of the songs which is sort of an adulterated bluegrass, with some country and some rock in there.There are a couple of songs going on this CD which I will achieve a more 'modern' sound for, and in this case I use the SD overs as more of a front to back ambience sound and get my cymbals and impact plus a wide pan left to right with the LD's.When I set them all, I took quite a bit of time to address phase between them all and found those 'perfect' spots.Since its our own project and its my studio I wasnt limited to time constraints of being 'on the clock' with someone elses money.I will be posting results at some time soon.....

Originally posted by Davedog:
heinz...Each mic gets its own track in this instance so in reality I'm recording each in mono.I'm finding that as the mix goes, I'm using the LD's more and more and the true overheads less.Some of it has to do with the style of the songs which is sort of an adulterated bluegrass, with some country and some rock in there.There are a couple of songs going on this CD which I will achieve a more 'modern' sound for, and in this case I use the SD overs as more of a front to back ambience sound and get my cymbals and impact plus a wide pan left to right with the LD's.When I set them all, I took quite a bit of time to address phase between them all and found those 'perfect' spots.Since its our own project and its my studio I wasnt limited to time constraints of being 'on the clock' with someone elses money.I will be posting results at some time soon.....

Dave,

Now you have me really wanting to hear some of your tracks... Anything you can post that uses this micing method?

very soon...grasshopper..very soon...... ;)

dude,

i posted some of the roughest mixes to ever cross the digital divide, you got to give us something!

Anyone posting some new audio clips recorded using this method?

Here's the micing set-up I've been using lately.Its not real clear in this photo, but the front mics are about 3 feet out from the set.Notice the ab sence of any 'extra' things to whack.

I've had some pretty good results with an ORTF pair of C451's as overheads. These were jazz recordings.

For rock and other music with loud guitars and even louder bass I've used them in a NOS placement and closer to the cymbals.
I record it all at once in one room.

An ORTF or NOS pair is more or less like a single stereo microphone.

I tried the technique and liked it at first, but then it got kind of dull. The first problem was that the drummer was a freakin' huge guy... built like a dump truck... so I couldn't get the 'shoulder' mic in the correct place without it sitting in this dude's armpit.

The the cymbals started getting really thin and splashy and I had to compress the snot out of them to get some decay. The ride cymbal I LOVED, but the rack toms didn't ever cut through.

All in all, it's really an equipment and room issue... if it had been a super nice kit with a 150 lb. drummer in a sweet room, things might have turned out better.

Hey guys, great forum. Glad I found it. Here's my 1st newbie post.

I've used both LD and SD mics on overheads, and generally favour KM184s. Tried out the Studio Projects C1 for OH mics, and while they're a fanctastic mic (especially for the $$), they didn't really capture the spirit of a good performance like the Neumans. A couple 414s are nice too.

But, if you're looking for something unique, give the AKG 535 a try on OH. I know they've got some weird stuff going on above 8K, but with the right song they can add a great character.