As far as overheads go I've been switching between c1000s and sm81s. 421 and d112 on the kick and 421s on toms. I'm thinking about experimenting with a pair of Neumann tlm103s as overheads and just a 421 or d112 on the kick. I've got a 20x25 medium ambiant room so it should turn out pretty good.

Greg,

You should shoot back to the original recorderman post on this subject. He really goes into detail.

I farted around with all kinds of cockamaimie (sp?) drum micing methods before finding this one and this is really working now.

I have made a few more changes and the sound keeps getting better.

Jim

As a complete newbie, I took notes on the RecorderMan mic placment method. The (computer) engineer in me appreciates a quantifiable method of initially placing the mics.

What I missed is the mention of other mics. I have a pair of ATM25 intended for use on the kick and toms, and am wondering about integrating them, and possibly a SM57 for the snare.

My need is live performance recording, not studio work.

Originally posted by bgavin:
As a complete newbie, I took notes on the RecorderMan mic placment method. The (computer) engineer in me appreciates a quantifiable method of initially placing the mics.

What I missed is the mention of other mics. I have a pair of ATM25 intended for use on the kick and toms, and am wondering about integrating them, and possibly a SM57 for the snare.

My need is live performance recording, not studio work.

Just put the ATM25 inside the hole in the fron head of the kick drum. Position can range anywhere from jsut outside , with the front head of the mic an 1' away from the whole, to all the way jsut inside, to all the way inside up near the beater head....and anywhere in between. My pref's are the first two, but since this will be live your mileage may vary. Experiment. Once you found this spot, double check the phase with the OH's. Do this by flipping the phase on the OH channels. Whic ever position of the polarity swicth gives you the most bottom end is right. After that add your snare mic. About 1" up and 1" in angled down a bit. This is positioning for one (top only) mic. If you do Top and Bottom mics (57's), my fav is to postion on mic near the top rim, and the other near the bottom rim. both parallel with the skins. about a 1" above and a 1/2" away (top); and 1" belowand a 1/2" away (bottom), with a slight angle on the bottom mic up towards the bottom head. The important thing is that they are paralel to each other (except fot the small angle)...almost like your micing the rims. This angle work to the advantage of the axis repsonse of the mic and makes for a fat snare. Add acouple of db of 10k ( or your fav hi freq ) to taste. This is more for recording the snare w/ 2 sm57's but I thought I'd just pass it along. It works for me.

Recorderman, looking at this picture:

heinz

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I have been using Studio Projects C3's with Recorderman's technique (which I found very inspiring btw, the sound is great). I've been liking them very much in the space I'm working in. Here is a pic of the setup.

Are the OH's at the position you described??
I am lost on the measuring. Two drumsticks=16"??
Shouldnt it be 32"?? then I'm with you.

Sorry Golli, but I don't see a picture.

Another way to descibe it visually is that the over the snare mic should be a few inches above the drummers forhead. so that if they lean forward and rise up they'll hit it. The other one is off the right shoulder. Both mics equidistant from wear they hit the snare and wear the beater hits the kick.

Sorry Recorderman :( :roll: here's the picture:
http://heinzmuzik.com/pics/drum_mics.jpg

But you explained it quite well, here above.

Hey there Golli...Nice setup with the drums...Might I make one small suggestion and take it or leave it as you will.....

If it were my recording set, I would get the rack toms off of the bass drum post haste!..This will diminish the sympathetic noise and overtones by a lot and separate the drums even more. Peace.

Sorry DaveDog, :) .
My setup is slightly different. My bassdrum is a 10 ply maple custom and with die cast hoops so I've never experienced any sympathetic ringing between Bd and toms. However my former setup was with thinner Bd and tripple flange hoops and that setup gave me lots of trouble.
BTW, Heinz is also a member of RO.

Hey golli,
Yup...that looks right.

Is it usable live also?? for a minimal micsetup.

I have not used it live, but we do 'let it bleed' in the studio with this type set up (but oktavas, not LD's) and while they pick up a ~bit~ of guitar and bass, it still sounds great.

So, live should be cool too.

On the other hand, if you are talking live club setting, you may be able to get away with less...

Do you currently use overheads in your live rig?

Originally posted by Davedog:
Hey there Golli...Nice setup with the drums...Might I make one small suggestion and take it or leave it as you will.....

If it were my recording set, I would get the rack toms off of the bass drum post haste!..This will diminish the sympathetic noise and overtones by a lot and separate the drums even more. Peace.

Originally posted by golli:
Sorry DaveDog, :)

Hey Guys!

Yes Davedog excellent suggestion, I have (since that pic was taken) mounted the toms on isolated stands which as you suggested definitely helped eliminate sympathetic vibration. Plus that old Rogers memriloc hardware puts like 1" diameter steel tube through the center of the drum, probably not sonically ideal. :s:

Golli, the one mic was set up 33" in directly above the snare centerpoint, the other directly over my right shoulder also 33" away from the snare centerpoint. The right shoulder mic then gets adusted so it maintains the distance from the snare, but matching as close as possible to the other mic's distance from the bass drum beater impact point.

Thanks, it looks clearer to me now.
About the live setup idea, the minimal micsetup comes from trying to get away with as few mics as possible, but still trying to capture the whole set. I mean if it is a killer micsetup in the studio, it would be great if it worked live also.

Another vital learning place for those who missed it the last time...also a chance for those who were participants to perhaps share in their discoveries through application of the knowledge set forth here.

Dave,

did you ever get around to posting samples of the kit you were recording?

I have a pair of AKG C1000s but I recently upgraded to a matched pair of 451b's. I started out using an X-Y pattern above the center of the kit as high up as my 8' ceiling will allow and on a line that would join the two bells on my crash cymbals. I realize this depends a lot on how you set up your kit. I also tried the "straight down" (one above each crash) method but the cymbals were way too much "in your face" and if I turned them down (volume), I lost everything else. The best results came from moving the overheads from their "straight down" position to about a 45 degree angle pointing at the drummer's shoulders. Took a lot of the heat out of the cymbals.

In general, I use the 451b's as overheads, an EV RE20 in the kick close (3-4") to the batter head off-center but pointed at where the beater strikes the head for punch and then a Sennheiser 421 just outside of the shell under a stool and off-center for tone. The front skin of the kick is mostly cut away and the stool and kick opening are covered with moving blankets (a great buy for isolating stuff). SM57 on the snare and a SHURE KSM32 about five feet out in front of the kit roughly level with the drummer's head and pointed slightly downwards. This makes the kit sound huge. I have moved away from close-micing the toms (used to use 3 Sennheiser 421s) and the hi-hat because the stuff I'm recording is more pop oriented. I'm supposed to be recording an instrumental demo next week so I might go back to close-micing.
I'd like to pick up a second KSM32 to try large-diaphragm overhead micing.

I heard from somebody that if you want better isolation between your snare and hi-hat, you keep the gain down on the snare mic but the volume up. Any thoughts? Oh, I also use a piece of foam (out of a mic box) with a hole in it to act as a dampener between the hi-hat and mic.

Anyway, that's my two bits. This thread has provided me with a number of ideas, thanks!
Any other suggestions or comments are welcome.

I am recording beds for a buddies band this weekend (10 songs) and will be using my Oktava 012's for overheads in the recorderman set up. A 57 on snare, the Beta 52 on kick.

I have been going back and forth on a few other things that I may try like another 57 or beta 57 in the kick on a pillow, maybe a 57 or beta 57 on underside of snare, or finally possibly tossing a LD 5-6' out front of the set (like my Barking friend just suggested.)

I am going back and forth because I know the 4 mic set up will work fine and with the number of songs I need to get tracked I am nervous about wasting time experimenting with these other mics.

I will try to post some samples early next week.

Originally posted by Barkingdogstudios:

I heard from somebody that if you want better isolation between your snare and hi-hat, you keep the gain down on the snare mic but the volume up. Any thoughts? Oh, I also use a piece of foam (out of a mic box) with a hole in it to act as a dampener between the hi-hat and mic.

Instead of a 57 on the snare, try a Beyer M201 which sounds great and has far better hat rejection due to its hypercardiod polar pattern. It also works great on toms. A workhorse of a microphone.

Originally posted by jdier:
I am recording beds for a buddies band this weekend (10 so I am nervous about wasting time experimenting with these other mics.

Always through those other mics up. Focus on one or a few, and print separately. You can always ditch them, comp them or use them separate as is latter.

The main thing is this, when doing drums (or any other multi-mic setup). As you add mics to the soundscape, listen to them as a hole. Adjust relative volume between pairs of mics so that you can hear the "phase" between them. I usually use the Kick as my basis (because lower frequencies are easier to hear "phase" with). It's not mandatory, but I have a "phase clicker" that allows me to confirm absolute polarity of my first kick mic [So that a forward motion from the kick head produces a forward motion from the woofer]. Then for each mic I add, I might quickly solo against this first mic, adjust the relative balance between the two and listen to see if anything in the kit gets thin when listening to just these two. Once you get the hang of it you can do it quickly.

Then have the drummer warm up, preferably on the song(s) we're about to cut[so that I can check the inner balances of the necessary parts of the arrangement and the coverage of the kit...i.e. do we need more bell from the ride? Does the ride even get used?etc). I put up all the previously checked mics into a balance and I'm ready to go. I generally tweak the whole time, adjusting for each song/arrangement as necessary.

I use no EQ on anything and only a touch of compression going in on the inside kick and the top snare mics.The great thing about this setup is at mix..Theres lots of options and lots of ways to go to tailor a sound to the song.

I started out with the no EQ vibe but I would like to point out that the amount of EQ used in the mix later then has a much more severe curve and is less musical sounding. By EQing a little at tracking the overall shape of the EQ becomes smoother and much more musical.

The other thing that all these pictures show me is that the rooms that you are recording in do not neccesarily allow for much ambient micing. Where's the wood or stone and the 10'+ ceiling? Drums are made to resonate and all the gobos and low ceilings seem contrary to any setups I have encountered in the last 15 years. Perhaps if you are at home you can put the drums in the front hall way with some wood floors and lots of nonlinear walls to use as room tone.

:p:

To keep this thread on topic I am just going to point to another post.

(Dead Link Removed)

This post details my recording from the weekend using the RM method with some of the modifications and suggestions that you all tossed out here.

Leave comments/suggestion on the other post.

Jim

It's not mandatory, but I have a "phase clicker" that allows me to confirm absolute polarity of my first kick mic [So that a forward motion from the kick head produces a forward motion from the woofer]

Hey recorderman, can you elaborate on this subject. I am a little confused. :confused:

Anyone have a chance to listen to this? Curious about feedback or suggestions for the mix down we hope to do in mid Jan. Let me know what you think.

(Dead Link Removed)

Originally posted by jdier:
To keep this thread on topic I am just going to point to another post.

(Dead Link Removed)

This post details my recording from the weekend using the RM method with some of the modifications and suggestions that you all tossed out here.

Leave comments/suggestion on the other post.

Jim

It sounds great man.I really liked how the vocals are in your face. It has a nice vibe to it.Only thing I would consider, like you said, messing with the drums a little. I think they should be more centered like almost a mono drum sound. That phase issue is apparent. :p:

Wow! Thank you, RecorderMan for sharing this technique! I used it for the first time this afternoon in my newly built basement home studio (I'm still getting my stuff together after moving into a new house) and the drums have never sounded better on my recordings!!!

Happy Holidays to everyone!!! Here's a little mp3 for y'all that we recorded today using that OH setup. This is my organ trio featuring Johnny Gist on tenor saxophone. I'm not too thrilled with the tone of the sax we got (it got better as the day wore on... we played around with different mic positions) and this is just a rough mix, but enjoy!

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.organiss…"]Some holiday music for you![/]="http://www.organiss…"]Some holiday music for you![/]

Happy Holidays B3Groover and All

Merry Christmas to Glyn Johns and all.