Thanks for pointing this out to me Teddy! And many thanks for the kind words,... appreciates it!
Re-extending the vibe back to you for your fine efforts.

peace

TeddyBullard wrote: Lets all give a big welcome to Mr. Mike French (two Frenchs here now!), who is quite an accomplished ambient recordist, whos efforts I have heard and admired...welcome, Moke.

I hope you will stick around. This is one of the most civil, professional, and knowledge-filled forums on the web.

Teddy

I am thrilled and enriched to read the posts in this thread. A belated welcome and thank you to Kavi for your wisdom, your thoughtful posts, and most of all for taking the time to share so much with us already.

I hope you'll stay around and enhance this forum with your experience and insights.

I can't say enough what it means for me to read what you have to say, particularly about the spiritual nature of recording, regardless of the medium. You bring vindication and hope for what so many of us struggle to accomplish day in and day out.

Again, welcome Kavi (and Moke too!).

thank you moke for your kind contribution.

Will you be recording a natural acoustic signal, or, an amplified pa signal?

all the classical music i have recorded over the last 3 years have been close mic'd performances with the lowest quality of PA and blaring stage monitors. Its a miracle that they actually result in released work and there are people who are buying and even appreciating these recordings. But, to answer your question... i will be recording unamplified concerts in various acoustic spaces, with small invited audiences (5-20 people).

in your pics... i see a couple of dynamic mics close to the performers... are they being recorded as well? Are there audiences, pa and stage monitors during the recording?

fwiw, the following is a pic from last night's (almost impromptu) ghetto styled 'purist' :lol: recording. Kartickdas baul is a folk singer from west bengal... he is leaving town today... just called a few friends over and recorded his live performance at my next-door- neighbour's photo studio (as i can't fit 15 people in my little iso room). It was great fun! and kartick is incredible... for the first time, i have seen these jokers (my friends) pay so much attention and be so silent :)

Hi Mike,

Moke wrote:
I've recorded extensively within the Persian music community [snip]

Has any of that been released or do you happen to have some short audio samples, e.g. of the recording in the pictures you contributed? If this was live, how much seepage was there from the sound system? Isn't your ambient setup picking up a fair deal of that as well? Just curious.

As you know, its not dissimilar to the Indian classical music, Carnatic Music.

If I may... Carnatic Music is very specifically the music of South India, which is different from that of the north and without persian influence. It's the ("Hindustani") music of the north which has been influenced by music from outside India to an extent.

Regards,
Daniel

Dear Kavi,

kavichandran wrote: Dear Daniel, Do you know if German Harmonia Mundi did release any Indian/Persian/Arab classical music?

To be honest, I don't know... Had some old catalogs, but they're packed up somewhere...

The only other recording that I know for sure was done with only two mikes, is the East Greets East LP by Ravi Shankar.

Interesting. I've heard it, but I don't have it. Wonder what the three other (very good sounding) Deutsche Grammophon LPs of Ravi Shankar were recorded with...

And on mirdanga is the regal Raja Chatrapathi, who on the color cover looks very dapper (as always!) with his waxed moustache!

Indeed... There's a nice solo CD of his (on Wergo), but if you will not listen to CDs, it's vain to recommend it... :D Don't think any of these were still released on LP.
There are some technical and musical treasures out there on CD... But a lot of superfluous stuff as well, with little musical or technical value, just yet another commercial release by Ustad Suchandsuch Khan... :roll:

Best,
Daniel

a couple of questions were asked about the mic'ing and placement in those pictures.

The dynamic mics were house sound support, for the pa, and not the recording.

The PA system was near the ceiling, permanently mounted, and more forward in the room than my mics, so there was minimal influence from the PA. It is definitely a factor, but not much of a presence.

I was aiming for ambience, as opposed to directness of sound, and I acheived what I was after.
The vocals are somewhat more distant than what I had soundchecked for. After we finished the soundcheck, some pillows were brought in for the performers to sit on. At the last second, at show time, the performers rearranged the pillows, creating new angles that they were sitting at, and ended up facing each other more than they were at soundcheck, so I ended up a bit more off-axis, and distant to the vocals than I would have liked to be.
I actually ended up having to walk out on stage after the second song, during applause, and resetting the mics to try to compensate for their stage presence rearrangement.

As far as a sample goes,.....
I don't see where one can be uploaded here. I do ahve a small bandwidth page that I can post something to, but, it would be mp3, and a very small file.
I'll look into that later.

peace

thanks for the reply moke. and that looks like a very nice hall.

i have a little web space, if i can mail you, i'll send you the password. about 20 mb is easy for me to spare.

respect,

This is a picture sample of the stage setting for one of my favorite recordings that I've done.
This is [="http://www.shakuhachi.com/G-IJMEA.html"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/]="http://www.shakuhac…"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/], a crossover blending of japanese, indian and perisan traditional music.
it consists of the shakuhachi flute, the koto, tambura and drone machine, tablas, and setar, and vocal.

My mics, dpa 4022 compact cards, are ORTF at the stagelip-> Grace V3 analog output -> Tascam DVRA1000 DSD 2.82mhz@1bit.
My friend was the sound foh eng'r for this event, and the pa was panned to match the stage, and I was close enough to the players, to get their real acoustic voices, for sound image placement in the playback soundfield.
This is at the[[url=http://="http://www.nsi.edu/…"] Neurosciences Institute Auditorium[/]="http://www.nsi.edu/…"] Neurosciences Institute Auditorium[/] in La Jolla Ca.
The dynamic mics on-stage are for foh support. My ORTF recording pair are at the stage-lip center.
We mixed the pa to be in support of the quietest players, and not to be the dominant sound source in the room.

TM Hoffman: Integral Asia....

Moke wrote:
This is [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.shakuhac…"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/]="http://www.shakuhac…"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/], a crossover blending of japanese, indian and perisan traditional music.

Nice coincidence here, Mike... I have met Tim in India many years ago, and Abhijit (the Tabla player) is a good friend, too... Would really like to hear that one... Guess these are private recordings, not release material, are they?

Regards,
Daniel

Dear Mike, You should give yourself much more credit! Often it is the "Wonderbread Americana" lad who "gets it"! As you come with an open mind, one not burdened with prejudices and preconcived notions. No Loui Vitton designer baggage, lugged by porters and coolies walking behind you, carrying the stuff on their heads! Often the natives think they "Know", simply because they happen to be born into a perticuler ethnic group. Attened an Indian concet where the PA is in the hands of one of these all knowing pundits, if you want proof!
It is no accident that some of Dr. Ali Akbar Khan's most ardent students are Gringos! Same goes for Ustad Zia Mohinuddin Dagar. Nancy Leah is a case in point. She plays Drupad on the cello! She was good enough in the eyes of her guru, to allow her to play with him on stage. How come no Indian ever thought of playing the cello, the Western instrument most suited for Indian music? I am sure a similer reality prevails in the Persian diaspora.
Anyway, remember this sacred work of ours is a Calling! You are called to it. Your are indeed blessed.
I love Persian music as I do the food and the dark eyed ladies. Do you see their reflections in your mike stand?!
All the very best. KAVI.

Dear Mike, I forgot to include this my last post: in your reply you had mentioned "Deadhead". Well, there is no doubt that amoung all the rock bands, the Dead cared the most about sound. No one, not the Beatles nor the Rolling Stones (who both made far more money) spent the time, effort and money like the Dead did. For this alone they get into Audio Vikuntha!!!
The man most responsible for all of that, including the "Wall of Sound", their in house guru, The Bear, made a recording titled "Old and in the Way". It had fantastic sound and great playing. Some young turks (Garcia/Grissman) playing with the Elders (Vasser Clemants). My point here is that this great recording was done with EV dynamic mikes!!! (Recorder was a Nagra IV-S).
No tweeks, no tricks. From this it is clear that one need not have the exotic tube mike, modified by some con artist claiming other worldly performence!
I have always enjoyed "American Beauty" and "Working Man's Dead", both for the sound and the music, although the Bear may not have had anythig to do with the sound on these.
The editor of Mix is to soon release a book that will deal with the Dead and the evolution of their sound systems.
Keep on Trucking... KAVI.

How come no Indian ever thought of playing the cello, the Western instrument most suited for Indian music?

about 10 years ago (when i was doing my undergrad studies) chennai's string quartet did a recording of thyagaraja kritis. It featured kunnakudi vaidyanathan's son shekhar on cello. It was recorded with two tlm170s by p.balaraman, one of the very few 'aware' engineers here who cared about audio purity. At the time i was very taken by the really fresh sound, but i lost the tape and have since not been able to find it in the stores. It appears that nobody took to the idea.

respect,

Dear Rfreez, I have many LPs of Kunnakuddi and enjoy his "rock & roll" type approch to Karnatic music! Heavy "rhythm section", always with the three percussion instruments of mridangam, ghatam and kanjira. Lot of flash and fire, with deep emotion as well. I forgot to add his recordings to my list the first arouud. I belive he was the first to record with tavil accompaniment. Valayapetti did a great job on those recordings! Is the son still playing Karnatic music on the Cello? Does he have the fire of the father? Thanks for the info. KAVI.

hello kavi

i have used the services of shekhar as a film session musician on a number of occasions but not in a carnatic context... so i cannot comment on that. But guess what...! i just picked up the cd of the quartet recording... the store had one last copy :) I have heard it and though i do not want to comment on the music or the recording (which was done in a big dead room with 8' ceilings and a horrendous red carpet), i can say confidently that it is a unique and brave experiment. I will be happy to send you the cd if you give me an address.

respect,

peshkar wrote: [quote=Moke]
This is [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.shakuhac…"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/]="http://www.shakuhac…"]T.M. Hoffman Integral Asia[/], a crossover blending of japanese, indian and perisan traditional music.

Nice coincidence here, Mike... I have met Tim in India many years ago, and Abhijit (the Tabla player) is a good friend, too... Would really like to hear that one... Guess these are private recordings, not release material, are they?

Regards,
Daniel

that is tight!

yes, this is a private recording.
the bulk of my work is privately held by the ensembles that I work with. I do have a few obscure recordings that the ensembles sell at their performances, but, nothing of particular note.

kavichandran wrote:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:51 am Post subject:
Dear Mike, You should give yourself much more credit! Often it is the "Wonderbread Americana" lad who "gets it"! As you come with an open mind, one not burdened with prejudices and preconcived notions. No Loui Vitton designer baggage, lugged by porters and coolies walking behind you, carrying the stuff on their heads! Often the natives think they "Know", simply because they happen to be born into a perticuler ethnic group. Attened an Indian concet where the PA is in the hands of one of these all knowing pundits, if you want proof!
It is no accident that some of Dr. Ali Akbar Khan's most ardent students are Gringos! Same goes for Ustad Zia Mohinuddin Dagar. Nancy Leah is a case in point. She plays Drupad on the cello! She was good enough in the eyes of her guru, to allow her to play with him on stage. How come no Indian ever thought of playing the cello, the Western instrument most suited for Indian music? I am sure a similer reality prevails in the Persian diaspora.
Anyway, remember this sacred work of ours is a Calling! You are called to it. Your are indeed blessed.
I love Persian music as I do the food and the dark eyed ladies. Do you see their reflections in your mike stand?!
All the very best. KAVI.

Attened an Indian concet where the PA is in the hands of one of these all knowing pundits, if you want proof!

I'm not sure I follow you here. please clarify.

If by this, you mean blown mixes by people that should know their stuff, then, yes, I've seen that in any number of arenas of live amplified music. I was a little disappointed in the recent Ravi Shankar concert tour mix, in that, the tabla was all tap, tap, and no blorp.

In contrast to that tap-tap-no_blorp tabla mix, are the tablas from my Integral Asia recording. You get the tap tap, and then this glorious blossoming blorp that develops slowly, and then it envelopes the entire room in its massive warmness, along with the whole decay cycle leading into the next impulse.
My friend and I received lots of warm reviews for our mix of Integral Asia. We had audience members thank us aat set break, and afterwards. The head of the World Music Center was raving up our efforts on that particular mix.
We had a funky Peavey "speakers on a stick" pa, with Samson mics for the mix, and a Behringer mixer. But given that we used the PA for support of the quietest players, and let the voices of the loudest players carry themselves, the recorded ambient blending sounded quite nice.

So, am I following you in your comments?

kavichandran wrote:

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject:
Dear Mike, I forgot to include this my last post: in your reply you had mentioned "Deadhead". Well, there is no doubt that amoung all the rock bands, the Dead cared the most about sound. No one, not the Beatles nor the Rolling Stones (who both made far more money) spent the time, effort and money like the Dead did. For this alone they get into Audio Vikuntha!!!
The man most responsible for all of that, including the "Wall of Sound", their in house guru, The Bear, made a recording titled "Old and in the Way". It had fantastic sound and great playing. Some young turks (Garcia/Grissman) playing with the Elders (Vasser Clemants). My point here is that this great recording was done with EV dynamic mikes!!! (Recorder was a Nagra IV-S).
No tweeks, no tricks. From this it is clear that one need not have the exotic tube mike, modified by some con artist claiming other worldly performence!
I have always enjoyed "American Beauty" and "Working Man's Dead", both for the sound and the music, although the Bear may not have had anythig to do with the sound on these.
The editor of Mix is to soon release a book that will deal with the Dead and the evolution of their sound systems.
Keep on Trucking... KAVI.

Old and in the Way sits right next to A Meeting by the River as two of my favorite "commerical" recordings of all time.
I'm a die-hard ambient recording enthusiast, plain and simple.
There are few people out there that can capture so much with so little. To those few, yourself being one, I hold high admiration. There is something just so much more pure about the straight wire approach. Once you get it, its hard to go back and listen to mixed music. Some people can get the magic right in mixed music, but I find so much more enjoyment in simplicity.

Kavi, many thanks to you for your time, and insights, once again (and everyone else).
truly appreciated.

Attened an Indian concet where the PA is in the hands of one of these all knowing pundits, if you want proof!

I'm not sure I follow you here. please clarify.

moke, i am not kavi but have a lot of experience with this.

can you imagine a close mic'd violin to which the PA guy has added 12 dB of high shelf eq from a cheap mixer? And then deals with the feedback by reducing monitor levels till the artistes cannot hear themselves anymore, and the reflected sound from the bloody loud house PA gets too confusing for the them...(there are no foh and monitor mixes here in chennai... if you are lucky, the monitor levels come from an aux send, but mostly its just a parallel out of the house 'mix'). I could go on about this (its more ridiculous than you can imagine) because my recordings suffer for all of this and there is a lot of restrained frustration, as i pay for mistakes beyond my control.

And when i make a suggestion (i am only the recording engineer at the venues, i don't handle PA) these guys tell me "i have been doing this for 20 years... mind your own business, you do your job, i do mine".

i guess this is what kavi meant.

respect,

Fellow travellers: Not exactly. Let me explain... I have never recorded amplified concerts, but with one exception. The only Water Lily recording ever done of an amplified concert was the very first recording of Dr. Ali Akbar Khan, the very first Water Lily release. All the other recordings since, stemm from sessions that were under my full control and thus properly executed in terms of my priorities. (My last three classical releases done in Russia were however of concerts, but being concerts of classical music, of course they were unamplified).
What I was reffering to was the busy body (and there is always one around!), an Indian (substitute the ethnic type you deal with) with very good qualifications, mostly with a PhD and often in the sciences, who as his "contribution" to the good cause, "comandeers" the role of "sound man"!!!
This know nothing (when it comes to sound) will then proceed to destroy what could have been a magnificent evening of music making of a high order.
This type is too arrogent to learn and besides in his mind he already "knows" all there to know about sound! And of course being Indian (substitue your "main man" here), he also "knows" all about Indian music (substitute...) too!!!
Different (but related) beast than the one you have to tangle horns with. A pain in the you know what, nevertheless. This phenomenon, I belive happens only in countries that host large ethnic communities.
There should be a UN resolution passed banning the amplification of all acoustic music concerts in small venues!!!

kavichandran wrote:

Anyway, remember this sacred work of ours is a Calling! You are called to it. Your are indeed blessed.
I love Persian music as I do the food and the dark eyed ladies. Do you see their reflections in your mike stand?!
All the very best. KAVI.

I couldn't agree more, that it is a calling, and an obsession.
Touched might be a better term for it :D

The dark eyed ladies, with the jet-black hair?
They are some of the most exquisitely beautiful women in the world!
I'm blown away every time.
Definitely, yes!

I just finished four days of a persian ensemble tour, earlier this month. The guys in the ensembles girlfriends are stunning.
Being a happily married guy of 28 years, I don't notice these things, of course! :lol:

Refreez, you say you are not Kavi, but are you sure?! I am hearing (what did you say?!) reports from my field agents (sent out to find vintage tube gear cheep), that you/I (maybe it is Rick Rubin!) were seen in the Madurai Meenakshi temple recording onto a one inch, tube two-track!!! Please let me know if this is true. Maybe it is Karaikuddi Mani pretending to be me!
All kidding aside, thank you very much for offering to send me the CD, but as you know, I do not listen to CDs. I appreciate very much the thought though.
I think I am correct in saying that Kunnakuddi never came to the US in the last 15 years. Damn pitty, as I would have loved to record him. He was the "Mahavishnu Orchestra" of Karnatic music! Is the son still playing Karnatic music on the cello?
Why not try to find one of the "old guard" from EMI and interview him for all of us? I am sure some of those guys are still around. This would be a great service to us all.
The S. Balachander 10 LP boxed set is another must have jem. He did all the 72 melakartha ragams on this monumental work. The cover of one of these LP showes him being recorded with a single Neumann mike (tube?). The mixer has rotary knobs! The back cover shows him listening to playback, seated in front of what could only be an EMI BTR recorder!!! The monitors seem to have oval dual concentric drivers!
By the way, I know nothing about PAs nor multi track recording for that matter, NEVER having ever recorded with more than two mikes. I never go down to Mordor (Madurai yes!). I am happy and safe in Middle Earth, drinkng my ale and smoking my pipe...
A few of the Chembai Bagavathar LPs too have good sound. What a voice! The Sirkali Govindarajan LPs too, mostly had good sound. I love the LP on which he sings Arunagirinathar's "Kandar Alangaram"! Another great voice! The Oriental Records release of Govindarajan "Live" (from the New York Town Hall) boxed set is great too. Although the Oriental sound tended to be decent at best, having been recorded mostly in "low rent" studios, they however released a wealth of great music. Also worth getting are the two with Mani and his brother L.Shankar, both performing with Semmankuddi Srinivas Iyar. The doyan of Karnatic music is old, but still delivers the goods. On the LP with Shankar, there is the added attraction of Palkatt Mani Iyar on mridangam!
The very best. KAVI.

Remember Mike, you are only looking at a reflection! And that too on the pitted chrome of the mike stand!

kavichandran wrote: Fellow travellers: Not exactly. Let me explain... I have never recorded amplified concerts, but with one exception. The only Water Lily recording ever done of an amplified concert was the very first recording of Dr. Ali Akbar Khan, the very first Water Lily release. All the other recordings since, stemm from sessions that were under my full control and thus properly executed in terms of my priorities. (My last three classical releases done in Russia were however of concerts, but being concerts of classical music, of course they were unamplified).
What I was reffering to was the busy body (and there is always one around!), an Indian (substitute the ethnic type you deal with) with very good qualifications, mostly with a PhD and often in the sciences, who as his "contribution" to the good cause, "comandeers" the role of "sound man"!!!
This know nothing (when it comes to sound) will then proceed to destroy what could have been a magnificent evening of music making of a high order.
This type is too arrogent to learn and besides in his mind he already "knows" all there to know about sound! And of course being Indian (substitue your "main man" here), he also "knows" all about Indian music (substitute...) too!!!
Different (but related) beast than the one you have to tangle horns with. A pain in the you know what, nevertheless. This phenomenon, I belive happens only in countries that host large ethnic communities.
There should be a UN resolution passed banning the amplification of all acoustic music concerts in small venues!!!

in my previous post, I mentioned a recent 4 days of gigs with a persian classical ensemble.
You could not possibly have described the circumstance any better.
The guy whose PA rig was used, came, loaded-in, soundchecked, then had to leave, with some sort of emergency.
He left his son to run the PA. His son being a musician (bass player), and a persian musician himself, had a good grasp on the mix. He was also assisted in achieving the mix by the players themselves, going out into the seating, and listening, and making adjustments.
The son was immediately overridden minutes before the concert by the "same person" that you've so faithfully described.
This guy, who I believe to be a doctor (seriously!), turned up the vocals in the mix so loud, that it turned into this explosive blast with each note sung. Just overwhelming, and immediately fatiguing.
He then proceeded to unpan everything in the mix and bring it all to center, and turned everything else up to try to match the new vocal level.

OK,......
This is in the Neurosciences Institute Auditorium, which is one of the finest small acoustic halls in the nation, if not the world. No PA was probably needed, but, they set it up, and used it (we've done so in the past with great results).
His centering of all players cancelled out any natural placement of the players in the recording, and actually successfully introduced a good amount of phase cancellation to the room, muddying the living daylights out of the sound, except the vocals (visions of the Maxell ad guy).

I've met "the guy" that you talk about quite recently.
I've got to thank him though, as his blaring vocals caused a conversation with one of those dark eyed beauties, which you eluded to earlier. She was asking why the mix was so off, and I had to clarify my position as recordist and not mix-man, which took a while (speaking slowly,.... stretching... t h e... m o m e n t.......)

again, in contrast,....
the middle two shows of this run were back to back nights at the same theatre.
I arrived during soundcheck of the first night, and met the soundman, Sergei, a russian immigrant.
Sergei was a hired hand along with the PA rental, and a damn fine mixer, but, he'd never heard the first note of persian music.
He had the mix dialed, but had it all panned to center.
He asked me what I thought of the mix, and I mentioned having the players panned in the mix, to match the stage, as being a rare treat in this genre.
He rearranged his panning settings, and came to a wonderfully mixed, stage matching mix, and spaced sound image. He also made sure to keep the levels low enough that you could actually hear the players real acoustic instrument voices.

He was blown away enough with the first night, that the next night, he came and did his own multichannel recording with ambient mics, and a board feed, matrix.

:ends rambling:

:starts rambling again:

Kavi wrote: By the way, I know nothing about PAs nor multi track recording for that matter, NEVER having ever recorded with more than two mikes. I never go down to Mordor (Madurai yes!). I am happy and safe in Middle Earth, drinkng my ale and smoking my pipe...

I know nothing of mixing, or multichannel work either.
I've got two ears. Two mics are all I need.

/rambling

Dear Daniel, Are you aware of the French Playa Sound Drupad recording of Ram Chattur Malaik? A very different Gharana and style to that of the Dagarvani school. Though I prefer the Dagarvani Gharana, this recording is worth having.
The lable Wergo that you mention was the one that Peter Panke was connected to.
Another rare Swedish recording I forgot to mention, is another of Zia Mohinuddin Dagar playing SITAR!!! As you know, Zia played a custom bin, with a teak neck instead of the customary bamboo. The Shiva/Shamkya/Tantric rules that govern the making of bins or Rudra vinas are very, very strict. I have heard that Hayman, the Stradivari of Indian instumant makers, did not like making Rudra vinas due to all the fasts and purification rites he had to perform! Thus, it takes a very long time to make one of these great instruments. It is perhaps while Zia was having his custom vina made that he played the sitar. The LP is from a label called MNW and was recorded in Bombay by Bent Beger, the same man who recorded the very beautiful recording mentioned in my first post, on Alvares.
The best... KAVI.

hello kavi

thank you for the musical references... i don't mean to rant, but i really wish it were easy to go out and get these recordings. I have a humble old suitcase type garrard lp player and i try to find enough material for it... but the second hand lps that i can find are so miserably worn out that its very hard to focus on the music, but i do have a few gems including EMI's recordings of madurai somu and ml vasantha kumari. CD releases too are of varying quality... i feel cheated when i spend my hard saved money on piece of crap recordings and/or transfers.

speaking of kunnakudi, i really enjoy his bombastic style, his stage presence and his singular desire to give audiences a good time.... but he seems to have come to extreme disfavour with traditional audiences for the exact same reasons. Sometimes i think the 'eliteness' of the music is taken so seriously that it is considered disrespectful to just have a rowdy good time.

speaking of doctors... there is a doctor friend (i forget his name) of yours, who follows your recording ideals, with whom i was briefly in touch. If i remember correctly, he said that you have done a recording for him? Has he done any carnatic vocal stuff?

karaikudi mani is a favourite mridangam player. Its a pleasure to watch his extreme discipline, his straight back and his precise strokes. I regret that i have not recorded him (he plays for very few people, only sanjay subramaniam as far as i know). I have recorded other masters however... including paalghat raghu, guruvayur dorai, tv gopalakrishnan... and if i may be permitted to indulge in a bit of cheeky humour... i must say it could get pretty confusing if karaikudi mani, you and rick rubin were in the same room, but then it would prove conclusively that you are not all the same person :)

cheers!

Dear Rfreez, I am happy that you took my humor in right and lite spirit! Thank you. The doctors name is Kumar Chockalingam and yes, I did record Nayvali with violin and mridangam, as well as an outstanding Bengali mandolin player with sarangi and tabla. I used his Coles 4038s in the Blumlein set up, feeding a Sonosax pre amp, into a Tascam DSD recorder. He has also a recording of Chitti Babu done in a studio in NJ, but with just two mikes employed and onto analog tape. Very likely, the last recording of the master. Kumar will be starting his lable soon.
Yes, I was well aware of the fact that the snobs in Madras "disappoved" of Kunnakuddi and his rock $ roll style of playing. It is indeed sad when things like this happen.
By the way, some years back, when I still had my hair and beard long, I was indeed mistaken for Karraikuddi Mani by some South Indians!!! It was at a concert and I was wearing my traditional clothes and was looking every bit the Tamil that I am.
The very best. KAVI.

Kavi, and ALL......

a slight topic highjack coming.......

Do you have any thoughts in regard to baffled first-order cardioids, as a stereo pair, and baffled via a jecklin disc, or similar baffle?
I'm a longtime advocate of baffled omni's, and have wanted to try baffled cards for a long time. Whenever I'd have had an opportunity to try them, something came up that negated it.
I recently had an opportunity to record an 8 piece violin octet with harmonically voiced violins, (Dr. Carleen Hutchins violins, [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.hutchins…"]The Hutchins Consort[/]="http://www.hutchins…"]The Hutchins Consort[/]). This was the time I was waiting for, as it was in a bit of a "throw away" circumstance where experimentation was totally acceptable.

I'm curious about your thoughts, even if only based in theory.
I'll expand more, but I'm truly curious about your thoughts.

thanks

I'll expand more

please sir... could you expand more? what would be the point of putting a jecklin disk between a pair of cardioids... more separation...? i was under the impression that 'ortf' itself provides a lot of separation...?

respect,

rfreez wrote:

I'll expand more

please sir... could you expand more? what would be the point of putting a jecklin disk between a pair of cardioids... more separation...? i was under the impression that 'ortf' itself provides a lot of separation...?

respect,

My experience is limited to one attempt, so, lets go with the grain of salt theory, first and foremost.

Why?
I'll refer you back to my previous post, and the link to the Hutchins Consort.
I've recorded this ensemble dozens and dozens of times, going back to 2001.

They typically set up in a U, with the highs to the left, and lows to the right, with the mids being the rear of the U.

Now, visualize in your minds ear, wht happens if you focus an ORTF pattern, or any other typical stereo pattern at this "U"
None of the typical patterns focus on the rear of the U, and all the typical stereo patterns do focus, straight on-axis, to the closest players.
So, you get exaggerrated highs and lows, and a more attenuated midrange.
This happens with every typical two channel stereo configuration.

So, to counter the corners of the ensemble being straight on-axis to the mics, I turned both mics to 0º axis, straight at the mid range players, and had the outer corners of the "U" being off-axis by as much as 35º per mic.
The mics being on either side of my j-disc baffle, utilizing the baffle to create the signal intensity difference that you'd get in an ORTF array.

The result......
I was able to highlight the mids, as hoped, and the attenuation of the highs and lows, made for a more natural balance.
As you know, first order cards only attenuate intensity of signal as they turn off axis, but not frequency response. Its just signal intensity that is attenuated, which is what I was after.
I still got the frequencies, just not as overbearing.

rfreez,

How does this relate to you?

You'd originally asked about a complex situation. You might be able to do what I did with the baffle, in focusing the mics on the vocalist, and having the instrumentalists being more off-axis to the mics?

its all about the sweet spot, ain't it?

Moke wrote: Now, visualize in your minds ear, wht happens if you focus an ORTF pattern, or any other typical stereo pattern at this "U"
None of the typical patterns focus on the rear of the U, and all the typical stereo patterns do focus, straight on-axis, to the closest players.
So, you get exaggerrated highs and lows, and a more attenuated midrange.
This happens with every typical two channel stereo configuration.

I haven't found this with Blumlein, especially with ribbon Blumlein. The image and intensity is very accurate throughout the sound stage.

DavidSpearritt wrote: [quote=Moke]Now, visualize in your minds ear, wht happens if you focus an ORTF pattern, or any other typical stereo pattern at this "U"
None of the typical patterns focus on the rear of the U, and all the typical stereo patterns do focus, straight on-axis, to the closest players.
So, you get exaggerrated highs and lows, and a more attenuated midrange.
This happens with every typical two channel stereo configuration.

I haven't found this with Blumlein, especially with ribbon Blumlein. The image and intensity is very accurate throughout the sound stage.

You're right, it is absolutley spot-on accurate.
I didn't mean to be so harsh to any technique. I've just always felt like something could be improved.

Given the typical U shape of classical chamber ensembles, the mid violins are always rearward, and especially so with 8 matched voices. I've got a pile of different imaging moving around, 180º of moving sound image.
I've always felt that the mids could be better represented.
I typically hear from the musicians that they'd like more mids in the recording.
While the usual recording is very accurate portrayal of what went down, its nice to hear more detail coming from the mid section.

As much as I love Blumlein, the open rear lobe configs tend to get blown out in live circumstances, because of audience ovation. So I find myself moving towards less rearward open patterns, such as DIN variations and NOS. They capture the front imaging very well, and still capture a nice amount of the halls voice, while lessening the audience, and giving me a few more db of musical gain.

this is a sample of the baffled cards.

The live sound field is: highs in the left channel, mids across the rear of the U, and lows right channel. This was a live soundtrack to a silent movie, played to an audience.
There was also a Fender JazzMaster guitar, and old fender amp, adding colorations, which also defines the hard right boundary in the recording, the outer most player.
The mics are at 4th row center, about 15'+ horizontal out from the ensemble (-20'), and, about 5'5" high

Listen for the mids presence, as well as the balance with the highs and lows (both of which were intentionally and naturally attenuated).

Is this the ideal recording?
pffft! not by a longshot.
Like I said, it was in a "throw away" circumstance, in a hall with active people, and an air conditioning system working overtime. An as a total bonus, the video projector fan.
So, bear with this, and realize that it is an experiment.
Its a nice starting point for what could be utilized, and tweaked alot to fit each circumstance.
It did reveal to me that I could get more mids in the recording, though, I have no control sample to prove it, just a long history of working with the ensemble.

baffled cards sample, here
The sample, ^^, has been pulled, and no longer available!

edited: to make more sense, and slaughter the language a little less :rolls eyes:

Dear Mike, What a (near) coincidence! I was turned on to the daring and wonderful work of Ms. Hutchins, some years back, by a friend in NY. I have even heard one of her piccolo violins played by a member of the Saint Petersburg Philharmonic, to whom it was gifterd by Ms. Hutchins.
I really admire trail blazers like Ms. Hutchins, Harry Partch, Sun Ra and like who have had the courage and conviction to go against the flow and build something of lasting beauty and value.
Not that I consider myself a trail blazer, nor that I belive I can out do our patron saint Blumlein, but rather in the spirit of experimentation, I have done someting very similar to what you have. Two cardioids (Milab LC 25 Line level mikes) spaced as in ORTF, but aimed stright with a "disk" inbetween. The "disk" I made myself using a table tennis paddle, with tow inch acoustic form (egg crate type) glued on both sides. As all I got to record was a solo violin, I can not give valuable feedback. Should I have further trials, I shall let you know the results.
Space IS the place... KAVI.

kavichandran wrote: Dear Mike, What a (near) coincidence! I was turned on to the daring and wonderful work of Ms. Hutchins, some years back, by a friend in NY. I have even heard one of her piccolo violins played by a member of the Saint Petersburg Philharmonic, to whom it was gifterd by Ms. Hutchins.
I really admire trail blazers like Ms. Hutchins, Harry Partch, Sun Ra and like who have had the courage and conviction to go against the flow and build something of lasting beauty and value.
Not that I consider myself a trail blazer, nor that I belive I can out do our patron saint Blumlein, but rather in the spirit of experimentation, I have done someting very similar to what you have. Two cardioids (Milab LC 25 Line level mikes) spaced as in ORTF, but aimed stright with a "disk" inbetween. The "disk" I made myself using a table tennis paddle, with tow inch acoustic form (egg crate type) glued on both sides. As all I got to record was a solo violin, I can not give valuable feedback. Should I have further trials, I shall let you know the results.
Space IS the place... KAVI.

I have a recording of live performance of Sir Sedukh playing his Hutchins Treble Violin in the number one spot of The Hutchins Consort in place of thier usual player, Gascia Ozunian(sp?) (nov. '05) An ambient recording done by a friend in this same line of recording thought.
He is an amazing talent!
mind blowing.

Featuring Sir Grigori Sedukh on treble violin, of the St Petersburg Philharmonic Quartet and St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra, of St. Petersburg, Russia.

this fork in the flow, the Hutchins Consort fork, has been an amazing experience. I've worked with some amazing people in their main players, and especially their guests. I've done 4 live recordings with Charles Curtis as guest cellist, and Alan Vogel, guest oboe, Ellie Choate, harp. Three of the finest players in baroque chamber msuic. And. Charles modernistic experiments, wow. Wonderful opportunities for exploring as a recordist.

And, no, as much as it sounded,.... I'm not trying to play one-up-manship with good lord Blumlein either (as it sounded in rereading that post).
I'm just trying to figure out a way to reach deeper, without having to resort to multiple close micing. Kind of using the properties of the mics and tweaking them. Natural eq'ing?

maybe somebody can grasp something out of this highjacking..... :D

Dear Mike, I was not suggesting one should not "question" Saint Blumlein, no, not at all. I am a Blumlein proponant and yet did experiment with the set up discribed. Nothing is set in stone. What ever it takes to do the job! Havig said that, I would add it is pretty hard to top Saint Blumlein as the man was very smart (some forty patents by the age of forty someting!) and pertty much left no stone unturned. I have been told that the baffle idea is also somewhere mentioned in the Blumlein/EMI patent of 1930 something. But by all means do EXPERIMENT. Great results have been consistently obtained with other than the Blumlein methord! Nothing ventured, nothing gaind. Remember, in the end one has to abandon all gurus and Gods. Only SPACE is REAL!!! KAVI.

kavichandran wrote: Dear Mike, I was not suggesting one should not "question" Saint Blumlein, no, not at all. I am a Blumlein proponant and yet did experiment with the set up discribed. Nothing is set in stone. What ever it takes to do the job! Havig said that, I would add it is pretty hard to top Saint Blumlein as the man was very smart (some forty patents by the age of forty someting!) and pertty much left no stone unturned. I have been told that the baffle idea is also somewhere mentioned in the Blumlein/EMI patent of 1930 something. But by all means do EXPERIMENT. Great results have been consistently obtained with other than the Blumlein methord! Nothing ventured, nothing gaind. Remember, in the end one has to abandon all gurus and Gods. Only SPACE is REAL!!! KAVI.

I was unclearly, and, confusingly, chastising myself in public for my blasphemy.
not directed at anything that you said.

I've tried blumlein, hrtf, oss, ortf, xy, spaced omni, ab, din variants, nos, rear of hall, stagelip, you name it. So, I thought I'd try something different and actually "aim" at what I was trying to highlight.
Hows that for a brilliant concept? :lol:

Kavi,....
thanks for the conversation. I feel so privileged, truly.

peace, love, and wellness to you and yours, and all.

Dear Mike, Radio Vatican says that the Pope has absolved you of all sins! (Even that of winking at the Persian ladies!!!)

Speaking of the Holy See (should it not be Sea?!), have you ever tried the Radio Vatican technique? It works best for recording old Roman chant in catholic churches! And speaking of old Roman chant, there is an OUTSTANDING LP on French Harmonia Mundi, recorded by another of my "personal Gods", Jean-Francois Pontefract. This man made nearly all the great recordings put out by HM in France, a lable that though run by utter prigs, was instumental in getting me going, through its top class produtions.
Is there anyone out there who knows the "secrets" of JFP?! Do you know how and with what he blended his potent love portion # 9? I have heard (audio myths again) that he used tube mikes. More importently, that he used a compander made by Sharp/Optonica. I kid you not. This was told to me by a Frenchman no less! For the love of God, if any one of you can track him down, PLEASE interview him for us!!! If you do, you will get to kiss the Pope's hand!
Sri Sri Sir A. Blumlein. C.B.C., N.R.K., N.H.K.,
Royal Keeper of the Birds and Bees.

Moke wrote: rfreez,

How does this relate to you?

You'd originally asked about a complex situation. You might be able to do what I did with the baffle, in focusing the mics on the vocalist, and having the instrumentalists being more off-axis to the mics?

its all about the sweet spot, ain't it?

moke... it is an interesting idea and i shall try it as soon as i can. My situation is somewhat similar to your example... as in, the performers are in an approximate 'u' shape, with the most critical details coming from the center/far end of the 'u'. However, in theory though, the problem i am likely to encounter is with stability in the stereo field. If it is vocal music, many performers rock from side to side and also in the vertical axis, by significant amounts. To counter this, the mics will have to be at least 12' away, and recording a soft vocal from 12' away could open another can of worms... no?

speaking of which... can anybody give this neophyte (myself!...just to be clear) a clue on what chance i have of making a good 'soft' vocal recording from a distance of 12'... i have never tried this myself... but if it could work, blumlein or baffled stereo could be my solution.

respect,

rfreez,

I only scanned the posts briefly, but if I understand correctly you are trying to record a U-shaped group with a soft vocal upstage center, and you are dead set on only two mics.

I don't think this has been suggested yet; have you tried a Faulkner phase array? This is two bi-directional mics facing forward (polar patterns in parallel) and spaced 6-10" apart. This will give you more upstage reach than the cardiods. You still get on-axis frequency response for the vocalist and you should not need a baffle (which can be a visual distraction for audience/performers). It will still give you some sense of spaciousness due to the near-coincident configuration.

Zilla wrote: rfreez,

have you tried a Faulkner phase array? This is two bi-directional mics facing forward (polar patterns in parallel) and spaced 6-10" apart. This will give you more upstage reach than the cardiods. You still get on-axis frequency response for the vocalist and you should not need a baffle (which can be a visual distraction for audience/performers). It will still give you some sense of spaciousness due to the near-coincident configuration.

thank you zilla.

that is a great suggestion! i have of the faulkner array only recently and have never considered it, particularly, the advantage of the extended reach of the two bidirectional mics in my situation had never occured to me.

how far back do you think i will have to place the mics from the singer, considering that the singer is rocking from side to side?

respect,

rfreez wrote: how far back do you think i will have to place the mics from the singer, considering that the singer is rocking from side to side?

You will still need to place the mics such that you capture a good ensemble balance and pleasing stereo image. I suspect that when the mics are in such a position, the singer's rocking motion will have minimal effect on the recording.