I don't know about this specific case
but I too have been caught out

A Joe Meek unit just didn't have the transformer fitted.
A few emails to Ted F and I had the full story. I chose to keep my unit and have no specific issue with Ted or the supplier on this particular occurrence.

This and the above does highlight the faith we put in the advertising.
I think people around here already know that I advocate the lifting of the lid before you buy.

This is not always possible but it seems to me that manufacturers that are willing to give you and inside picture are also the ones that are very proud to show off their build quality and their parts quality.

Sorry to hear of your situation but glad you brought the info here.
keep the info clear and truthful and with out too much malice and things like this can ultimately benefit all people looking to purchase equipment.

The fact that the PreSonus M80 (as well as the 2020 and the VXP) no longer have the Jensens in them is not "news". In fact, the review of the M80 by Kurt Foster on this very forum mentions this.There have been several posts about how PreSonus has gone downhill in quality. I, for one, have complained about this several times on this very site. I don't know what Musicians' Friend is claiming these days because I have never had any use for them after my one crappy dealing with them several years ago. They are certainly no friend of mine...
I haven't seen any claim by PreSonus that their products used Jensens in several years.They avoid that issue by claiming that it is a "premium" transformer...Bottomline is...never assume!

You know for all you people that love to bitch, a little digging and you may actually find some super helpful people over at presonus. Go to gearslutz.com register and search for presonus gear. You'll pull up threads just like this where people just bitch because they like it. And on nearly all of them you'll see someone from presonus jump in and make the correction and help people. I've never seen any other manufacturer in the world get on a forum and give out their direct lines to help people. One guy just had an LED out, they immediately had him contact them and sent him a replacement free. So violaman before getting on here and ranting about how this cheap piece should sound like 8 channels of Neve pres why don't you go over to gearslutz and do a search, just type in presonus and you'll find chris(i think kelly is his last name) and he'll probably take care of you. And BTW that whole thing with the transformers is musiciansfriends fault, not presonus. I don't hear anyone bitching about Sweetwater advertising the e604's as condensors when they aren't.

Your issue should be with Musicians Friend and not PreSonus. The data on the Musicians Friend site is incorrect. Presonus had nothing to do with that.

Did you really think they would take the unit back after you used it for 3 years just because of a misprint?! C'MON!

I'd be willing to bet that if you had just bought it, then found this out, that they would take the unit back no questions asked.

On top of that, if the unit sucked you should have returned it right after you got it. Did you keep it because it sounded good or because you thought it had Jensens in it?

Taken directly from their Terms and Conditions:

Because prices, product descriptions, and availability can change quickly, Musician's Friend does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information provided on the Site.

According to that first link, that guy seems rather torn between the transformers that are in the unit and Jensens. So Maybe it's not as bad as you think.

Buyer Beware. Search, Research and re-Research.

An $$$ learning experience

Thank you all for the posts. I can tell you that at the time of my purchase I had spent quite a number of hours researching the M80. This is before I heard about Kurt's post. Most of the review's were favorable.

I just think that it is wrong to faulty advertise and mislead the public. My issue is with Musicians Friend for selling me something that is not what it is sold to be (do I need to re-state this again?). And they still advertise it this way!

For example- the auto industry seems to take accountability for re- calling mistakes. They don't say "you should-a taken apart that engine we sold ya ". "Sorry it was made out of cheap generic/parts when we said it was brand x"

For the past few years I was trying to get the most out of this pre, as I thought that it was a decent component. And I did get some fine results, but no better than the Mackie VLZ. See, I was looking for an improvement. Only recently did I enter into some searches on the net which explain, perhaps, why I am not getting enough out of the unit.

Say "pr0gr4m" that's exactly what the genius at Musicians Friend said-

Taken directly from their Terms and Conditions:
Quote:
Because prices, product descriptions, and availability can change quickly, Musician's Friend does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information provided on the Site.

Completely mindless and impersonal. These are great sales people! Stick to the policy!

Well, they've definitely lost my future purchase. I'm sure that they don't care being such a huge vendor. After all I guess that it's all the buyer's fault, right! Buyer beware! Keep on researching and open up every audio product, because no one takes the responsibility. Everything is a lie! I guess that's just the way we should treat everyone! What's that old saying? Do onto others?

I guess that if I had mistakenly sold a product (at any time) to someone who later found out that this is fraudulent. I would feel really bad and try to apologize and do what ever it takes to fix the problem. Instead we get

Taken directly from their Terms and Conditions:
Quote:
Because prices, product descriptions, and availability can change quickly, Musician's Friend does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information provided on the Site.

Typical!

I own an MP-20 with the Jensen transformers in it. I was having some problems with the unit and called Presonus. I got to talk to someone who was very technically informed and who suggested that I send the unit back to them for repair, I did so and was charged a very reasonable amount for the repairs. The whole turnaround time was short and I got back my unit in perfect shape. I have nothing but GREAT things to say about the company and their employees.

If you have a problem with a piece of audio equipment the time to complain is just after you purchased it within the 30 day return period. NOT after 3 years of use. When a car is recalled it is for safety reasons and not because the manufacture changed suppliers.

I recently was offered an another Presonus MP-20 which was a trade in at GC but when we took the cover off it was a post 2000 model without the Jensen transformers in it and I declined. I knew about the change from reading posts elsewhere on the web.

An informed consumer is the best consumer.

Yeah, I have similar experiences to Tom's.

I bought the Central Station and remote not too long ago and the remote started to fizzle out. I called Presonus and they immediately helped me. They gave me no hassles whatsoever and my fixed unit is on its way back to me right now - only 1 week after I shipped it to them.

Where's the beef? It's with Musicians Friend. (Who, btw, has NEVER filled an order of mine correctly. Seriously - NEVER. I ordered a couple microphone cables from them and they sent me an ART DIO!!! I ordered 10 packs of 100 CDS, they sent me 10 CDs!!! The list goes on and on and on and on.....)

Now, I deal EXCLUSIVELY with dealers whom I know and can talk to.

Nate at Atlas
Fletcher at Mercenary
Craig Wilson at Sweetwater
Jake at Guitar Center (he he - they really take care of me there...go figure...)

J.

Interesting posts!

Sounds like a couple of these posts are from sales professionals!

My problem here is that Musicians Friend continues to advertise the M80 as "featuring Jensen transformers". To the unsuspecting consumer(like me three years ago), that means that it is still using the Jensens! Is something wrong with that? If I had known what I do now then I would have waited another month and saved up for some other Pre. The whole point of this original post is to generate some interest in faulty advertising. And accountability...

Also again(since I sell string instruments) another example - If I ever mistakenly sold someone a violin with a cheap or unsatisfactory sound- post or bass- bar I would go to great lengths to set things right at any time after the sale! I would take the financial hit to make sure that my error doesn't cause problems! Because you just shouldn't screw over people in the music business! Well, hopefully you just shouldn't deceive people in the first place. You must be accountable for the products you sell! Most consumers don't immediately go taking things apart that they just spent a good chunk of change on. I'm not disassembling my Powerbook to see if the processor really says Motorola! Well, I guess in the audio world you have to?

I just hope that the Musicians Friend folks stop faulty advertising, because someone out there might buy the M80 thinking that they are getting Jensens. Even the PreSonus web site uses reviews from 1999 when they originally used the Jensen transformers. 2 identical reviews from 1999. Take notice.

link to old 1999 reviews

http://www.presonus.com/m80.html

Well I think you have answered your own question

Take this matter up with Musician's Friend. Go as high as you have to including the president of the company. If they won't do anything to rectify this problem (and I doubt that they will after three years) then you have three choices. 1) do nothing and live with what you have purchased 2) go to your states attorney general and ask that he look into FALSE advertising of this company and this product in particular 3) put the unit up on ebay and get what you can from it. I think that Musician's Friend will tell your attorney's general that it was a "misprint" from an earlier sales brochure and was not corrected and there was no malfeasance on their part.

After owning the unit for three years those are about your own choices.

As to the way you run your own business. You subscribe to the bible's golden rule. Most large companies subscribe to their own version of that rule and that is "them that has the money rules" I have, on numerous occasions, gone out of my way for my client to rectify something that they did not like even if some period of time had passed. But I run my business the way I would like to be treated and not to simply to make the most money I can and screw everyone I can along the way. Different strokes for different folks.

Imagine if you sold a viola to someone and after three years they came back to you and told you that they did not like the "sound" of the viola from the beginning but just kept playing it and now they want their money back. What would you tell them? or lets say the viola you sold someone got a stress fracture in the neck and was rattling and wanted to get their money back after three years or what if they found out that the viola you sold them was not manufactured in Parma Italy but instead was made in Rome Italy and wanted their money back because of the mistake in the location of the factory. What would you tell them and what would you do for them?

Best of luck with your quest.

Re: Interesting posts!

violaman wrote: Sounds like a couple of these posts are from sales professionals!

??????? :!: :!: :!:

Uhh, I don't think any of us are "Sales Professionals."

We've just been around long enough to know that you don't trust what you read or hear on the Musician's Friend webiste. Besides - how long did you have the unit? MF has a 30 return policy.

J.

My real "hope"

I guess that I need to spell it out. "My only hope is that they (Musicians Friend) might update their web site so that someone looking to make a new purchase would be better informed". And yes, I have told them this! And yes, I have told someone at PreSonus this as well! Hell, I think that if you reduced the price on this thing and sold it for what it is than it's alright for someone getting started! I do think that Kurt's review is right on!

Imagine if you sold a viola to someone and after three years they came back to... What would you tell them and what would you do for them?

Since I am an expert on the stringed instruments that I sell, this should never be a problem. I know each one of them like a member of my family. I don't sell factory instruments. If it were an issue than I would gladly take it back, make repairs or refund, no problem. But that's a long story... That's doing business on a clear conscience! This is not a stress fracture question. Those transformers did not miraculously change manufacturer. I am just new to this "audio gear" mentality of selling products. I'll try to deal with smaller distributors on the future.

In fact, I do have quite a few options with the M80. If I sold the thing on E- bay it would go for a real loss. I think that I'll take my chances and do some mods to see if I can get any interesting sound out of the unit. This could prove to be a disaster... Oh well! Or, it could come out well? The M80 is not getting a lot of use in my closet. I would like to get some more depth out of the pres, so that I could put it into my mobile rig. Currently using RNP's. And there's always the doorstop option!

Here's the funny thing to me. I don't think the M80 is really all that bad! Considering its price, I don't think you could find an 8 channel pre anywhere close to it!

While I agree, it is no Millennia or Grace, it certainly fits well into its niche market. Furthermore, the difference between it and the unit with Jensen transformers is there, but not "night and day." I would venture a guess that most hearing both units side by side would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Though, I do strongly agree with you that they should change the description, in almost any case - caveat emptor...

J.

Violaman,

If Musician's friend is anything like Guitar Center, who I think owns them or is it Sam Ash? you are probably lucky you even got what you ordered, Most of the people who work at our local Guitar Center were hired not for their knowledge of equipment but for the simple fact that they will work for a sub minimum salary with the promise of getting rich off their percentages for selling the equipment. In other words they are not "professional" audio salesmen nor do most of them know anything about what they are selling. (in fact one of there top salesmen use to sell shoes before he started working at GC and before that he was a draftsmen in an industrial company and really has NO knowledge of audio or keyboards except what he has picked up as he went along nice enough person but he know form nothing about nearly everything)

You on the other hand are a professional sales person with a direct tie to your clients and the instruments you sell.

Guitar Center and Sam Ash have forced all the legitimate pro audio dealers in this area to close down or switch over to selling video cameras or large screen plasma displays so if I want to get a piece of professional audio equipment I a) either have to order it though a national retailer like Sweetwater or b) see if Guitar Centers or Sam Ash can order me one which is usually NOT the case. But they are CHEAP or so they would like you to believe and every weekend they have a BLOWOUT sale just to prove how great they are.

If I were in your shoes I would right a letter to Musician's friend with a cc to your local attorney's general and follow it up with a phone call to someone in customer relations if they even have someone in that position.

Again BEST OF LUCK!

There is no need to spell anything out. You took three years to decide that you're pissed off and you seem to only respect what a very unrespected(at least around these parts) person has to say. You keep bringing up musiciansfriend but then you keep bringing up Kurts review. You need to figure out what you're going to do and stop bitching. If I opened my Eureka and discovered it was built using Lego's and hot glue I wouldn't care as long as it gives me the sound I'm looking for. It just seems to me that the sound of your M80 is only now an issue because it doesn't have Jensens in it. If you were a talented pro you shouldn't have any trouble making the m80 work out for you, plenty of people have. BTW STOP!!!! throwing around accusations like "sounds like these posts are from sales professionals." Thats just ignorant and will probably get you a lot less help around here. If you want something done about this issue then do what I told you in the first place. In fact here's a guy that may be able to do something for you his name is Rick Naqvi, his email is rnaqvi@presonus.com and his direct line is 800-750-0323 ext 114. He's helped a lot of what were unhappy presonus owners and all of them have taken back the negative comments about the company. Now please at least email him your concerns before posting anything else.

Good to hear.

Thanks for the posts! Really, thanks for the advice about

Nate at Atlas
Fletcher at Mercenary
Craig Wilson at Sweetwater

I'll look into Mercenary and Atlas. There is a lot of good info on this record.org site!

I may have a friend over at Yale Law with a few choice words to add to my letter to Musicians Friend.

Wow! jonnyc!

you seem to only respect what a very unrespected(at least around these parts) person has to say. You keep bringing up musiciansfriend but then you keep bringing up Kurts review

Who's the "very unrespected" person? That's getting pretty personal about someone's opinion. I respect your opinion.

You need to figure out what you're going to do and stop bitching

. That's great now I'm "bitching" to point out a simple idea. What I was going to do is exactly what I am doing, which is to point out an advertisement mistake which continues to this day and may lead others into buying the M80 for the advertised "features".

If you were a talented pro you shouldn't have any trouble making the m80 work out for you, plenty of people have

... Sorry Jon, it has nothing to do with anyone's recording skill etc... sorry if my posts offended you! It's about advertising the product.

BTW STOP!!!! throwing around accusations like "sounds like these posts are from sales professionals." Thats just ignorant and will probably get you a lot less help around here. If you want something done about this issue then do what I told you in the first place

Who the hell is this Jonnyc, ordering me around in the first place!?!? That wasn't my quote!

Sounds like a COUPLE of these posts are from sales professionals

If you're going to quote, then get it straight!

No problem communicating with the PreSonus people. The 1st and 2nd ones I already talked to were just giving me the old sell. I'm a little sick of that. These are all just opinions. The fraudulent advertising is a fact which can be verified by clicking on this link-

(Dead Link Removed)

I'm just saying your negative attitude sucks. Like for example saying that you'd probably take a "big loss" on the m80 by selling it on ebay. I've gotten back nearly 90% on everything I've sold on ebay and honestly most things I bid on are only about 10% off retail, there really arent any steals on ebay anymore so you really may wanna try that route. And I'm also very frustrated because I've given you the number to one of the most helpful people I've seen at presonus and I thought maybe a call to him could really rectify what you've deemed to be some sort of huge conspiracy(sorry putting words in your mouth again). And as far as your opinion on Kurt you're right, I was wrong for questioning your opinion, its yours and I have no right to question it. I just personally couldn't respect a person that acted like most people were beneath him.

WOW. To my eye, everyone who has replied,once,twice, some even more has sympathized with you, offered sound advice,gone out of their way to provide phone numbers,email addresses etc... and it still seems you are looking for some kind of satisfaction from the board here simply because a former member put in a not-so-glowing review on the piece you're having a problem with.

To be honest, Kurt didnt like much of anything that didnt fit into a very narrow catagory and most of the time he didnt use it nor hear it to pronouce it bad. So using this as your reasoning is a bit grim as its probably the ONLY review published that was negative.

Try some of the suggestions the fine folks have offered. Then come back.

Am I not speaking the correct language?

My original post had nothing to do with negative reviews of the M80. It has everything to do with Musicians Friend continuing to advertise the product with "high-end mic preamps featuring Jensen transformers". And my own opinion about the fact that I thought that I was getting a certain product "Presonus M80 with Jensens" and I found out much later that I was not. Some might call this fraudulent advertising.

Just received this e- mail from "Brandon J. (Customer Service Team Lead)" at Musicians Friend-

Friday, January 27, 2006 6:03 PM
"just so that you know all the information that is posted on our web sites about the products come straight from the manufacture themselves. All of our info is updated on a daily basis if it needs to be changed. We will only update the info if the manufacture provides us with any new info. Since the web site has not changed, this means we have not been contacted by the manufacture of any new info. Our team that handles this is very thorough and very careful with what's put on
the web site due to these type of reasons. So unfortunately I can not accept a return for exchange. I am sorry you are not satisfied with your purchase, I wish there was something that I could do but unfortunately there is nothing I can do at this point. "

As I have said before, I was in contact with Presonus twice. They said flat out and honestly that Musicians Friend should not be advertising the product this way. If Musicians Friend checks on their products with manufactures like they say, then for 6 years now someone is lying!!!

I will get in contact with the PreSonus fella that was recommended to me. Thanks to "jonnyc".
Not going anywhere near recording. org issues with Kurt. I had formed my opinion about this M80 well before I read his review. I just found the review to be quite correct. That's just my opinion as an owner of an M80.

And sorry if my

"negative attitude sucks"

on losing money by reselling the M80. If anyone wants to buy it for $1795.99 please come forward!!! I'll try to have a better attitude about being lied to and ripped off in the future! I guess that I'm not allowed to be pissed off! Maybe I should just hand over my wallet to every con that comes around and say "thank you, may I have another!". I forgot to take my happy- pills!

In the last 6 years I have been upgrading my gear at the rate of about 4- 6K per year. With the Mackies, Brick and the RNP's I got what I paid for. You would think that a huge company like Musicians Friend would just admit they made a mistake to keep the business! They can re- sell the M80 under "reconditioned", fix their web site and lose maybe $300. Come out clean! This is the one item that I was sold through fraudulent advertising at Musicians Friend. But why is it still being sold under the same description?

I do think that it's great that 300+ audio enthusiasts have read this post. Again, that's my opinion! I will contact the Presonus guy. Gosh, I hope that I don't get censored for being so frank with my opinion.

QUOTE[Gosh, I hope that I don't get censored for being so frank with my opinion.]

Now why would you say that here? What good is that? No one is censoring you ..Everyones been pretty upfront and tried to be helpful and most have commisserated about your situation. I never shop at any of those GuitarBarns because of things like this. And I dont like it that a fellow human is getting ripped off....but to make comments refferring to being censorred on here for having an opinion is , in my OPINION, taking it a bit too far.

So shutup yer fukin whining you asshole.

It probably doesnt matter whether you got Jensens or Kulihickis from Korea. If you approach your recording the way you've approached this subject then I see no hope for you in the recording business.

How's that? Ya like them apples?

Sorry guys it was getting to me....like an old woman just going on and on and on and on about their goiter........sheesh.

Hey....report me to a moderator while yer at it.....oh wait....I AM a moderator.

Hey Gaff....Can ya lock this crap up?

Ok... Lock it up!!!

Ahhh! I have found a true professional?!?!

"Davedog"-

So shutup yer fukin whining you asshole.

It probably doesnt matter whether you got Jensens or Kulihickis from Korea. If you approach your recording the way you've approached this subject then I see no hope for you in the recording business.

How's that? Ya like them apples?

Sorry guys it was getting to me....like an old woman just going on and on and on and on about their goiter........sheesh.

Hey....report me to a moderator while yer at it.....oh wait....I AM a moderator.

Hey! If "Davedog" is getting pissed off. Lock it up! Wouldn't want to get "Davedog" all riled up! And this is from a moderator! What a joke!

There is a simple issue here! I have never said anything otherwise. That a lot of folks seem to be READING about. That must mean something?

If Davedog doesn't agree? So just don't read on "Davedog". What a great moderator. With moderators like that you might as well move to North Korea! Go dog! You're lookin' good on this site!

You know Dave has always been perfectly polite and professional to everyone I've seen him talk to and only when its warranted have I seen him like this and seems to me the last person that got Dave this worked up was a guy named Kurt. And you said that your original post had nothing to do with negative reviews. Well you gave it one before you even mentioned the whole problem. Now on to you losing money, so even though the unit got used by you, you still want full price back on it? So what if it had jensen transformers and still sucked? Why did you keep it 3 years? Why keep it stashed in the closet where its doing nothing when you could at least make something back on it? Its like you want everyone to feel sorry for you and nobody does and that pisses you off. Its still a usuable piece, so use it or sell it but don't expect a company to take it back after 3 years. I gave you two ways of getting ahold of someone that matters at presonus and what do you do, you email musicians friend. I think you're the only one "lookin good on this site" buddy.

no problem... simple topic

Never asked for sympathy. Just trying to point out an advertising problem. Just saying how much the unit goes for. Joking about selling it back at full price to illustrate loss of $$$ from auctions. HAHA. In reality I would offer it for up to 40% lower. Very simple. No sympathy please! If this evokes sympathy than it's not my problem. Bad advertising at Musicians Friend. M80 not in use is mute point.

Made observations on sound. Entitled to my own opinion about sound. Advertising flaw is a fact. Pointed out advertising flaw that continues to this day. Shouted down by Dave for making post. Once ad is fixed I'll be gone from this topic. Never meant to hit any nerves. It's a flaw with Musicians Friend. Progress has been made. People are reading the posts. Very simple.

Should we consumers be allowed to raise any discussion about faulty advertising? Should we be entitled to make a personal observation without being shouted down and called names? Do audio folks need to resort to these insults and asking to shut down a post? Why not just ask Musicians Friend to fix the ad? They won't admit the ad is incorrect! For six years!

Wow, I need a nap.

yeah ... :? ... wow

GOOD NEWS!!!! After 6 years it's finally over!

See... discussion can create change! After six years of faulty advertising! And who knows how many sales...

They fixed the web site!!! Although, they are saying that it never said anything about "featuring Jensen transformers" in the first place! Isn't that amazing!! Hilarious! Well, at least we know that the folks at Musicians Friend really are totally dishonest, but they cover their asses! If you buy an M80 now, you know what you're getting. That was my goal here!

Response (Brandon) - 01/28/2006 07:29 AM

"Ok first off I apologize once again that your upset. Second I don't know where your seeing that we are advertising the M80 with Jensen transformers. I have checked the advertisement since I have been dealing with this issue and it does not and has not advertised the M80 with Jensen transformers since I have been chatting with you. So the info that you are posting on your forum is false. Also like I said before all, of our information that is posted to our web site comes directly from the manufacture. We are constantly checking manufacture web sites and in contact with manufactures for updated or new information so that we can have our information posted correctly"

As of 9 AM Jan 28, 2006 the ad is fixed!

That's great!

I'm done here! Never resorted to name calling!

Thanks for reading!

No hard feelings!

If you had bombarded the Presonus people, Musicians Friend, and anyone else in the chain over the last three years like you did the people here they probably would have given you a free one with two sets of Jensens as a relief that you never call or come back.

And MY problem with you is your attitude towards those that tried to help you, not your beef, though three years is a long time to expect relief from your obvious lack of investigation prior to your purchase.....Oh and the WHINING.

Yeah, dude, we get it...so do something about it....Isnt that what everybody said to you? And you didnt like it so the Whining level went up a notch. See, I dont care at all what you think of me, but I do care how much litter you leave at this site.

Hopefully your problem is resolved and we can all sleep better knowing that our future Viola purchases can be made without worrying that the seller is ready to pop a blood vessel over something he should have taken care of years ago.

Or is that too simplistic for ya?

(Where o-where is that MrShotgun when you need him???!!!)

Oh yeah...I'm sure that it was your ravings that got it changed.....uhuh.....yeah Right-on.....

No Worries DaveDog!

YOU Dave, can show everyone who you are by just talking and talking... Keep going DAVE, yeah, get the shotgun?!?! What?

Or is that too simplistic for ya?

(Where o-where is that MrShotgun when you need him???!!!)

Mr.Shotgun is a MEMBER here which you would know if you thought to look around and get to know the place.

Not a problem!

No big deal. Take it easy. I'll have a look around.

wrote: To be honest, Kurt didnt like much of anything that didnt fit into a very narrow catagory and most of the time he didnt use it nor hear it to pronouce it bad.

to clear things up, first i did get a PreSonus M80 to review before i made any remarks about it and second the only thing i can think of that i have ever made a call on before i tried it was a particular pre amp made by "Ferd Berffell" that runs on 9 volts dc that i said no way can it sound good ..... and i was right. no bone to pick with Dave .... just wanted to reply as i was not in attendance when the comment was made .