Experience and experimentation. MBC's usually have very little to do with anything in most mastering rooms also - I'm still wondering why everyone thinks we've got 6 of them lined up... I don't even have a hardware MBC anymore.

Keep in mind that there is an "optimum" maximum volume level that is dictated before the RECORD button is ever pushed - Some sounds, arrangements, mixes, etc. will just have a tendency to have the *potential* to be louder than others. This has to be attacked at the pre-production level - Not "fixed" during mastering.

Again, experimentation and experience. There is no substitute.

Also, the loudeness wars are making everything sound like crap. Do you really want to sacrifice your dynamics just to be a few dB louder? That still blows my mind. I have clients that care more about hoarding bits than keeping *some* of the dynamics.

Actually I don't want to destroy anything.
I'm curious how these guys get level WITHOUT completly destroying the mix. Because waves plugs and such will only get you so far toward this goal. That's why home mastering sucks. People use an L2 and take off 6db and destroy the mix.
To me it distorts before even getting close to professional mastered rock cd's.

I'm not looking to go into the mastering profession, but I do make cd's like every other mixing engineer.
There are some guys who get some hot levels and still keep the mixes overall original integrity intact.
Maybe your one of the guys who plays it very safe with levels.
Nothing wrong with that, I applaud your efforts, but I doubt your getting any big label work at the same time. Sad but true.

It seems there is an artform of achieving decent volume and not killing the punch of the mix.

When I do home mastering (mostly to check my mixes in the car and such) I do the same thing. I don't try and get things really loud. Just loud enough for me to have perspective on my car system.
I'm just curious how pro mastering guys are getting the volume they are. What tools they actually use. Simple as that.
I understand the whole thing that comes with that, and wasn't looking for a volume war discussion.

Thanks-

two main things.
1. a great mix
2. clipping

Not just the a/d converter but different stages in the daw including plugs.

Imagine what an original mix sounded like with all the dynamics intact before it got into ..lets say.......Ted jensens hands.

I always like his eq choice but the sizzle & lack of dynamics on everything even the Dave Matthews cd is just too much.
Ed

Slider wrote:
I watched Eddy at Oasis use a Brick wall limiter plug on my mixes to get the level way up, but it was a plug I've never seen before.

Maybe it was Eddy's skill and not the program? Or maybe he was doing something BEFORE the limiter to make the limiting shine. Why don't you ask him?

Slider wrote: Actually I don't want to destroy anything.
I'm curious how these guys get level WITHOUT completly destroying the mix.

That's the thing - Many mixes just don't have the potential no matter what the M.E. has. I get mixes in all the time that will never be "really" loud. Others, that come in with well-recorded, judiciously compressed and limited individual tracks, with a lot of "space" between the sounds - Those can get to fairly extreme levels without being pushed too hard.

It comes down to the choice of the raw sound that's being recorded - Before the mic selection is even made. THAT is when the "volume potential" of a mix is decided.

If you want a final product that has the potential for sheer volume, you need to start at the root, which is the core sounds and arrangement. This is why it's fairly easy to make a nice, airy ballad incredibly loud, while death metal is very difficult.

mixandmaster wrote: [quote=Slider]
I watched Eddy at Oasis use a Brick wall limiter plug on my mixes to get the level way up, but it was a plug I've never seen before.

Maybe it was Eddy's skill and not the program? Or maybe he was doing something BEFORE the limiter to make the limiting shine. Why don't you ask him?

Yeah...Eddy has skill for sure.
Did I give the impression he didn't?
I watched everything he did actually.
I tried to shut the hell up and watch rather than bug him.
He did say he could never get that kind of volume from an L2.
So that's why I'm asking what other ME's use.
I know exactly what Eddy used.
Now I'm asking what other ME's use.

no more politician style answers please. I'm begging.
If you don't know, or don't want to say, fine.

Ed Littman wrote: two main things.
1. a great mix
2. clipping

Not just the a/d converter but different stages in the daw including plugs.

Imagine what an original mix sounded like with all the dynamics intact before it got into ..lets say.......Ted jensens hands.

I always like his eq choice but the sizzle & lack of dynamics on everything even the Dave Matthews cd is just too much.
Ed

Thanks Ed! at least this is some information.
I'm curious how often the clipping thing is practiced.
And I agree a lot of stuff is getting smashed and destroyed.
Hopefully the unprocessed mixes will be around to re-issue in the future.

I would say it's a secret (not really a secret per se as it is a technique). Most anyone who's come up with something good, isn't going to share it. And no it doesn't involve an L2. Infact if you stick the L2 in at all, it destroys it.

Slider wrote: no more politician style answers please. I'm begging.
If you don't know, or don't want to say, fine.

Ugh... Some people don't understand if you explain it 20 times...

THERE IS NO SECRET!!!

Overcompression, limiting, clipping. No matter what, adding volume over a mix's natural volume is casing damage. The only "secret" is knowing what to do and how much to do it (to any individual mix) causing as little apparent damage as possible. And the ONLY way to learn it is PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE.

There is no "magic setting" that makes things "loud" while keeping the sound intact. There is also no "magic box" that will accomplish it either. Some do it better than others, but again, it depends on that single, individual mix, and it's stregnths and weaknesses that will determine the gear that is used on it.

Sometimes I'll use a $5000 compressor, other times a $500 compressor. Sometimes a limiter, sometimes the A-SAT on my converters, sometimes just ramming it in and clipping it. However, there is no way to tell which one will work best without hearing the particular mix involved.

And again, the orginal sounds, mic selection, recording technique, mix technique, etc., have MUCH more to do with the mix's potential volume than the mastering session. If a mix has the potential to BE loud, it's normally very easy to get it loud.

AAAAHHHHRRGGGGGHH!!! :?

Sorry, it's just been one of those weeks... I've had more questions like this sent in than I can count. It's like being asked "how long is a line?"

BTW - Here's a secret I used on a mix yesterday - +4dB gain on the input and +6dB gain on the output of the VariMu with around 2dB of gain reduction. About 90ms attack, 8 second release. No EQ. A-SAT on the Lavry. Rip-your-face-off loud.

Of course, the very next mix, on the same album, I didnt' use the VariMu at all. It just didn't sound right.

Happy New Year! 8)

Your funny. So no one uses certain techniques for getting level??
You just don't know what your talking about.
But then again I can tell that from listening to your clips.

I'm not asking for one answer or "secret" as you say.
I'm simply asking a simple question about what techniques people have used to get level.
How hard is that to understand?
I think you just don't get it.

You so badly wanted to make your big speech on CD volume.

WOW we're so impressed. What a revelation!!
I've never heard that before.
Thanks for enlightening us all.

We get it you know it all.
Now let someone who actually knows what they're doing answer.

Your sarcasm is truly bewildering, and you're obviously not paying attention to one damn word anyone here has said.

I get it just fine. What you don't understand is that the technique is unique to the mix. Throw five mixes at one M.E. and he'll come up with five different ways to achieve the mix's potential volume.

And if you weren't paying attention, I'll quote myself once again...

Overcompression, limiting, clipping.

If you're expecting a certain setting, it doesn't exist - The setting will be unique to the situation.

Dissing my clips (which many are studies in BAD sounding mixes, again, if you paid attention, you'd know that) and personal attacks aren't going to get you very far on the forum.

On the last message, I gave you the exact settings used to make a particular mix amazingly loud. The EXACT settings. What more do you want?

Guys, tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm going into WAY more detail than I normally do on this, no?

Slider,

I use to do magic when I was younger. I could not wait to learn to do new tricks and was always reading and watching other magicians so I could learn from them. I learned one thing very quickly it was not so much the trick (since everyone in magic basically knows how the trick is done) but the magicians way of presenting it. I have seen magicians do a simple French coin drop with so much skill that even I could not tell how they were doing it even though I know exactly how the trick works.

The same can be said for Mastering. It is not so much the gear (although you have to have good gear) It is not so much the settings. It is not so much the "tricks" but it is knowing how to use the gear effectively, having a great room to master in and a LOT is dependent on the quality of the incoming material. THERE ARE NO "STANDARD" settings to get the ultimate loudness. They are strictly dependent on the material you are trying to master.

I have had clients sit in my mastering room writing down everything that I do. They hover behind me making sure they know exactly what eq settings I am using, what compressor ratio and even what equipment is being used so the "next" time they can do their own mastering. I really don't care if they do this because what they are writing down will work for that song played that way and for no other and only in my room with my equipment.

No one is trying to keep mastering a "black art" and not reveal the "secrets" of the trade it is just that it takes a lot of experience, the right equipment and a great room to make a really great mastering experience. Sure there are some "tricks to the trade" but they are pretty well known and most of them have been discussed on this forum.

If you give the same song to 100 mastering engineers with 100 different rooms the song will be mastered differently by each of them. This is due to individual ways of working and due to the experience and knowledge of each engineer doing the mastering. It is also due to the equipment the engineer is using and the quality of his mastering room monitoring setup. Most songs that people say sound "really great" sounded great before they were mastered. They were well recorded and well mixed. The mastering engineer put the final polish on the songs and made them sound like they all belonged together on the CD. He or she also pumped up the volume if the group or producer wanted it but the song way ready for mastering and did not need any "sonic surgery" to make it sound good.

I hope you find the "holy grail" of mastering. (there really isn't one but lots of people, yourself included, seem to be looking for it and when the find out in the end that there isn't any they get upset and start accusing mastering engineers of keeping secrets from them).

Please excuse me I have to go and get my black robe cleaned and my magic wand polished as I have a mastering client this afternoon and I want to have all my "black art" equipment ready when he arrives.

Best of luck!

Slider wrote: Your funny. So no one uses certain techniques for getting level??
You just don't know what your talking about.
But then again I can tell that from listening to your clips.

I'm not asking for one answer or "secret" as you say.
I'm simply asking a simple question about what techniques people have used to get level.
How hard is that to understand?
I think you just don't get it.

You so badly wanted to make your big speech on CD volume.

WOW we're so impressed. What a revelation!!
I've never heard that before.
Thanks for enlightening us all.

We get it you know it all.
Now let someone who actually knows what they're doing answer.

If you want to start learn something you have to respect people first!
You could easilly be one of those that are being misled by strong fancy personalities that doesn't know anything when it comes to musicality.

The "if you want to get loud then just do this" refers to engineers that haven't realized what it's all about... and they will be making shit all the way to the samitary! -and that's the truth!
So if you want to be one of them then please don't ask us for some qualified answers.

I'm sure you just had to much vodka or something and that's why you got disrespected from almost everyone in here by your last post. but please convince us!! Do you really want to learn something??!!

Best Regards

this is pretty funny reading this. Good analogy Tom. No one is going to tell you how to do something. Even if they did, it wouldn't work for you. You'd have to have the same setup and the same experience and the same ears to duplicate it. Just won't happen. What kind of equipment do you have Slider?

Here is the Scene as i see it.

You've worked on a several projects recording and mixing in a Daw. Some of your clients need the stuff mastered and you thought why not, I need the extra cash. So you did a few and they turned out good. So now you feel comfortable pimping yourself out for mastering. You've sat in on a few mastering sessions and it was no big deal, just a few things here and there. You've got all the standard plugs and some self powered monitors that sound ok. A client came in and you did your thing and gave them a ref to take home and listen to. They said, sounds ok but how come it's not as loud as so and so. So you took another shot at it and really pushed those plugs. Gave them another ref, little better but still not loud enough. That's it, that's all you can squeeze out. anymore and it's garbage. Maybe I'll try the L3. Hmmm, still nowhere near the volume. Searched high and low through all the mastering websites looking for a hint of a magic box or plugin that maybe you didn't know about. Nothing, just eq's and some compressors and an L2 here and there. Read all the mastering forums, clipping pops up here and there, maybe that's it. Let me light up some lights on the plugs. Damn, that really didn't do it either. Client asks, how's it coming along. Were you able to get the volume up. mmmm, still working on it, I think it's a little better but I want to get it right.

Am I close so far?

So now it's down to the wire, the client needs his master so he can get it to a few people to listen to and such. You can't believe that there isn't some secret weapon that these guys aren't using and just not talking about. How, the hell are they getting it so loud yet retain the punch. You go back to the websites and zoom in on the pics of there consoles. Hmm, that looks familiar, that doesn't, that does, what's that thing. I wonder if that's the box. Let me see if all these guys have one in their rack. He doesn't, him neither. Maybe they have it hidden. Shit. Let me just ask.

Oh s/$t ! I'm afraid that is 100% true.

:lol: :D :lol: :lol:

Yeah, and happy New Year (y)

I know the secret. But I'm not telling. I could say 3 words that would have every one of your mixes as loud as a Slipnot song.

Actually, just joking.

HAHAHA

I've been learning this for years, I was in your predicament once and thought just the same thoughts.Now do what I did,read,play,read,learn,play,play,play,read, and read some more,the same applies to playing with your gear so by the time you are finished playing your master will still sound like shit, then if you have a moment of clarity you will understand there is no one piece of gear to do this. Also even if there is why should I tell you in 5 mins when it took me along time to learn too.Practice makes perfect.
Happy New Year

Slider, you are truly bewildering. (I can think of a few OTHER names as well, but it's a New Year, new day, etc....so you've got a free pass....this time.)

I'm utterly shocked at the fight you've decide to pick with John Scrip (Massive Mastering) after he took the time and effort to respond to your questions in detail. With my own 25-30 years of experience in this business, I can tell you he gave you the low down truth, whether you chose to accept it or not. Ditto for a few others who tried to help you as well.

No one got "Political" and everyone took you seriously until your pot-shots began. (I noticed John was civil enough to ignore your insulting comment that he's never done anything "MAJOR" as well. How would you even KNOW what constitutes a major recording with YOUR attitude?)

I will give you one clue to it all: You will NEVER find the answers that you seek in a 25 word "how-to" post or gear wish-list. The answers are intangible; attained after a lot of investigation and practice at the craft. They involve listening, developing technique and experience. LOTS of all of the above. Specific gear is probably last on the list. (It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools....)

As everyone has already pointed out: Any knucklehead can attempt "Mastering" nowadays, in the comfort of their own home studio. But the real masters at this know the difference, and have been at this a long time. The honest ones will tell you there's no one "magic bullet" for software or hardware or technique to make any one difference. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you. Mastering is the FINAL step in a long chain of recording, and the pro's will tell you things really should be done correctly all the way through that very chain. (You can't polish a turd, is another way to look at it.)

Too bad you can't accept what John and the rest have been telling you; it's rock-solid long-term advice. They were being brutally honest (even at the risk of admitting how razor-fine [small] the mastering step can sometimes be - in the hands of good, honest people).

It sounds like you still need a world of experience (and listening to some dude named "Eddy" is just a start... You obviously worship this guy, yet are probably blissfully ignorant of over 50 years of GREAT mastering done out there...largely in the analog world, long before you were even in diapers.)

You've got hopefully a lifetime of a career ahead of you, and once you get that chip off your shoulder you just might learn something.

Turning down the db level of your ATTITUDE would be a good start.

Oh yeah; Happy Freakin' New Year, too.

RockSkar wrote: I know the secret. But I'm not telling. I could say 3 words that would have every one of your mixes as loud as a Slipnot song.

I'm pretty sure that I could do it in 2 words. Maybe even less.

But it's a secret.

badbear wrote: [quote=RockSkar]I know the secret. But I'm not telling. I could say 3 words that would have every one of your mixes as loud as a Slipnot song.

I'm pretty sure that I could do it in 2 words. Maybe even less.

But it's a secret.

I can in one word ... and it's not a secret , i just don't want to :-)

The key is 3 words!

And here it is:
GET A GRIP

you should dither that large type if you reduce the font.

Should he dither before or after reducing the font ?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: you should dither that large type if you reduce the font.

I believe that it's called aliasing in grafik workstations.

But maybe I could truncate it using a noise algorithm in the program MAX/MSP or Super Colider... and if I remember correctly there also is a program related to MAX that's actually called Jitter!?

Well, that's only if you change the sample rate. otherwise dither works best. I've never heard of MAX, is that like the L2?

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Well, that's only if you change the sample rate. otherwise dither works best. I've never heard of MAX, is that like the L2?

...except i can't find the dither button i this forums text editor(this forum needs help).

Sure, MAX is exactly the same as the L2 just with more features such as completely random gain reduction and release... what a great tool.

Best Regards

Here it is...the Dither button !

...for left handed only, sorry .

Interesting thread......slider seems unusually quiet - the fact that you guy's gave him so much time was testament to the quality of this forum.

I have just joined and am learnig much just reading the posts at the moment. thanks. :)

Ammitsboel wrote: [quote=Michael Fossenkemper]you should dither that large type if you reduce the font.

I believe that it's called aliasing in grafik workstations.

But maybe I could truncate it using a noise algorithm in the program MAX/MSP or Super Colider... and if I remember correctly there also is a program related to MAX that's actually called Jitter!?

In graphics dithering is the term used for error-distribution algorithms when reducing color depth, basically the same as in audio.

When reducing image size you will want to anti-alias, because aliasing is what happens if you don't.

*g*

Hmmmm... interesting ! Looks like we are looking for the same thing. :wink:

l0calh05t wrote: [quote=Ammitsboel][quote=Michael Fossenkemper]you should dither that large type if you reduce the font.

I believe that it's called aliasing in grafik workstations.

But maybe I could truncate it using a noise algorithm in the program MAX/MSP or Super Colider... and if I remember correctly there also is a program related to MAX that's actually called Jitter!?

In graphics dithering is the term used for error-distribution algorithms when reducing color depth, basically the same as in audio.

When reducing image size you will want to anti-alias, because aliasing is what happens if you don't.

*g*

Thanks for the input! 8-)

and on that note.....

I have a simple question.

I am not looking for a secret, or even a technique to mastering. I can usually get my stuff sounding as loud as I want just using Logic (but then again I'm not mixing my stuff for the radio...and if I was so lucky... they'd probably make me use a pro ME). SO... I'm just wondering if you have a favorite mastering software (or can recommend a few). I have looked at peak, but I'm not even sure it does much more than a regular DAW. The thing is... right now I just put all my final tracks in logic in the same file to try and get some continuity...then i use crappy Itunes to burn.

-Louie

Any other forum would have gone berserk on Slider for that outrageous and insulting response, and flamed him to death in evil and childish fashion

Not here, just a bit of sarcasm really. Obviously the average age here must be somewhere above 30, not 13, like your average web forum.

He seemed to have gone elsewhere to get the holy grail. Or maybe he did find that magin black box.

One more thing to add to the list of compression, limting or clipping is simply making sure that the spectrum is balanced in a way that makes it want to be loud - which when going for apparent level can sometimes mean bringing the mid's quite a bit forward. Case in point is a remastering job I did for a couple of rock CD's - in both cases they had crushed the crap out of them with a peak limiter but the tracks still seemed incredibly quiet because there was an extremely exaggerate "smily face" curve with just lows and highs (does this sound like a case of a pre-set "masterizer" to you?) but no meat in the mids - where the ear is most sensitive to volume.

Anyway - just wanted to mention this also - but as far as everyone else has pointed out - there ain't no magic bullet.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Many enlighting issued touched here. Ive really learned alot!! Sometimes we do need an ass around here like the fellow who started the post to really see how stuff works. Keep up the good replys!!

Re: and on that note.....

flesymekili wrote: I'm just wondering if you have a favorite mastering software (or can recommend a few). I have looked at peak, but I'm not even sure it does much more than a regular DAW. -Louie

"Mastering software" is really nothing more than an EDL that you can properly create a Redbook compliant PMCD (or other approved delivery format) from.