I tracked some drums recently, and the cymbals came out really 'wishy washy' for lack of a better term. Not sure how to explain it, but it's basically the sound changing from the cymbal rocking back and forth on it's stand. I soloed one mic, and it's still there, so it's not phase, and I tried various levels of compression, expansion and a few other things to see if it would help, but to no avail. The (OH) mics were placed about 6 feet in front of the kit at about tom level (XY stereo). I tried coming in from over the kit, and it helps it a bit, but then I'm not getting enough tom in the OH. Any suggestions?
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whenever i get that wishy washy sound in my overheads, I usually
whenever i get that wishy washy sound in my overheads, I usually raise them, seems to work. I never close mic crash cymbols, if your close micing them that's probably your problem. If you have overheads properly set up youll never need to close mic the crash cymbols
9 times out of 10 it's an issue of mic placement. Look at how t
9 times out of 10 it's an issue of mic placement. Look at how the cymbals are mounted in the kit. Place your micpoint at the area where the cymbals wobble the least when struck. You can do quite superior close micing without getting a wishy uneven sound. When those cymbal mics get too high they cease to be cymbal mics and start to become room mics. You will want to keep the over heads equidistant from the snare to maintain a good punchy center. Here's a link to a Massenburg setup - http://www.massenburg.com/cgi-bin/ml/tracking_mics.html
Take your time and good luck.
vividsonics wrote: It also could be an effect of the room too.
vividsonics wrote: It also could be an effect of the room too. You might experiment with some gobos to deaden early reflections. Also could you tighten the wing nuts on the cymbals down? That may result in a shorter decay but would reduce the movement of the cymbals.
AND make the cymbals crack easier! Not very clever! The cymbals must be allowed to move freely, not kept in place!
Todzilla wrote: Are you sure it's not a phase problem? Bad phas
Todzilla wrote: Are you sure it's not a phase problem?
Bad phase can give a wishy washy kind of sound.
Yeah,that was my first thought, but the mic's were in x/y and when I soloed each mic individually it was still there.
I think it may have been proximity to a wall combined with mics too close. I'll be giving it another go in a few weeks, and this time I'll be paying closer attention to it (it was a 'jump in and hit record' thing last time, wasn't really able to do a lot of tweaking.)
McCheese wrote: [quote=Todzilla]Are you sure it's not a phase pr
McCheese wrote: [quote=Todzilla]Are you sure it's not a phase problem?
Bad phase can give a wishy washy kind of sound.
Yeah,that was my first thought, but the mic's were in x/y and when I soloed each mic individually it was still there.
I think it may have been proximity to a wall combined with mics too close. I'll be giving it another go in a few weeks, and this time I'll be paying closer attention to it (it was a 'jump in and hit record' thing last time, wasn't really able to do a lot of tweaking.)
If you're hearing this while you solo one overhead mic... it's being caused by early high frequency reflections.
My guess is that the recording space for your drum kit is small with low ceilings and there is little to no acoustic treatment.
Am I right?
If you can't find satisfactory mic placement or record in a bigger room... then high frequency diffusion will fix this.
Sounds like a phase problem to me too. You said that when you so
Sounds like a phase problem to me too. You said that when you solo it is still there. depending on your setup, it may still give that effect. Just for the sake of knowledge, try switching the phase on one of your overhead mics. If you don't have that option, you can get a mic cable that does that. Or you can make one. On one end of a mic cable, switch the wires that go to pin 2 and 3 . Or is it 1 & 3 ? Either way you have the shield (heavier sometimes braided) leave that one there and switch the other two ONLY ON ONE END of the cable
moonbaby wrote: This problem is aggravated by mic placement too
moonbaby wrote: This problem is aggravated by mic placement too close to the edge of the cymbals.As the cymbal sways, Doppler comes into play bigtime, and what you hear is that. The mic simply needs to be re-positioned so that it isn't as sensitive to that "moving target" edge.
Moving the overheads higher to let the cymbals breathe works, but it can also make the drums sound more distant... which may not be the sound you're after. Another approach is to place the overheads over the bell of the crash cymbals to avoid picking up the effects of cymbal movement, but you have then shifted from mic-ing the kit to mic-ing the cymbals. That's fine if your close mics will take care of the drums, but it's a very 70's sound, and compared to today's releases... it can sound a little too tight and generally not big enough.
If you are counting on your overheads for the bulk of your drum sound, and you want that big and fat but very close and present drum kit sound, then high or wide overhead mike placement, or "cymbal mic-ing" may not be a good solution.
I agree with Moonbaby. Try EVERY mic placement you can to find the sound you're looking for with out the wishy-washy cymbals. Might help to have an assistant move the mics for you while you listen. The right positions are probably in there somewhere... but if it still aludes you... it's probably coming from high frequency reflections and you'll need to fix the room... not the mix.
If you have enough mics and enough channels in your front-end, ambient mics in front of the kit can help fill in the sound of the kit and help eliminate your cymbal problem.
Sork wrote: [quote=vividsonics]It also could be an effect of the
Sork wrote: [quote=vividsonics]It also could be an effect of the room too. You might experiment with some gobos to deaden early reflections. Also could you tighten the wing nuts on the cymbals down? That may result in a shorter decay but would reduce the movement of the cymbals.
AND make the cymbals crack easier! Not very clever! The cymbals must be allowed to move freely, not kept in place!
He doesn't mean dead tight, and also, physics dictate that if you have the mass of a cymbal swaying back and forth such a large amount on such a small stress point, it will be easier for the cymbal to crack. I've had drummers that had cymbals where they swayed less than 1 inch each way off axis and produced some of the best cymbal tones I could ask for. If you are breaking cymbals, then you are hitting them too hard.
what about the room? Is it small? is it treated? is it carpete
what about the room? Is it small? is it treated? is it carpeted? you may be picking up more of the reflection than the dircet sound from the cymbals......I've done a recording in a small, untreated room with carpet on the floor and low ceilings that this effect was so bad you couldn't hear the attack of the cymbal, it was just like an endless ringing with no beginning.....
so long as we learn from our mistakes and make progress forward
If your such a hard hitter of cymbals that they crack easily you
If your such a hard hitter of cymbals that they crack easily you could try those Aquarian cymbal springs. Those let you tighten the cymbals and provide shock absorption. My bands drummer hits really hard and we got him some of the Aquarian cymbal springs and that extended his cymbal life span considerably.
This usually happens in a small room. Very common cybal bounces
This usually happens in a small room. Very common cybal bounces off of the wall right back into the mics and you basically hear the cymbal again and again in the mic. If you have a small room you will need some treatment.
Also ask the drummer not to hit the cymbals so hard and not all the time.
In a small room dead ceiling, semi dead walls and over heads as high as possible XY works pretty good. Make the drummer go easy on the cymbals. experienced drummers usually understand recording and their surroundings and consequently their recordings sound better.
vividsonics wrote: If your such a hard hitter of cymbals that th
vividsonics wrote: If your such a hard hitter of cymbals that they crack easily you could try those Aquarian cymbal springs. Those let you tighten the cymbals and provide shock absorption. My bands drummer hits really hard and we got him some of the Aquarian cymbal springs and that extended his cymbal life span considerably.
If you hit cymbals hard enough to break them while recording your recording will never sound good in my opinion.
Try taking the cymbal by itself and hitting it and recording it. When you listen to it back you will see how hard it needs to be hit. Most pros barely hit the cymbals when they record.
tedcrop wrote: This usually happens in a small room. Very common
tedcrop wrote: This usually happens in a small room. Very common cybal bounces off of the wall right back into the mics and you basically hear the cymbal again and again in the mic. If you have a small room you will need some treatment.
Also ask the drummer not to hit the cymbals so hard and not all the time.
In a small room dead ceiling, semi dead walls and over heads as high as possible XY works pretty good. Make the drummer go easy on the cymbals. experienced drummers usually understand recording and their surroundings and consequently their recordings sound better.
Egg-Xactly! :wink:
What about this? Let's say the cymbal gets nailed, it emits sou
What about this?
Let's say the cymbal gets nailed, it emits sound and begins to sway. The sound wave goes up to the ceiling and bounces back to the cymbal. The cymbal, as it sways, has a point where it is in perfect line to take the sound wave from the ceiling and direct it right into the mic. So it's going ooh wah ooh wah.
Is that possible???
This is interesting stuff. Please let us know what you find out once you solve the problem.
Cheers
Keith
That's happened to me a couple times maybe. If I recall it might
That's happened to me a couple times maybe. If I recall it might've been partly due to the mics I used, and/or where exactly they were pointed, but I think mainly due to the drummer being just a tad out of control.
It may help to not aim the mics at the cymbals, if they are in the first place. I tend to aim overheads at the toms - my desperate attempt at improving the drummer who ussually never hits those toms hard enough :)
How to fix the cymbal wobble sound if there is no going back? Hmmm... Well, I often do extremely surgical edits if something sounds very off - less and less as I work with better musicans. Like, for example, taking a similar drum passage from earlier in the song and fitting into the bad spot - hey, alot of time it DOES work seemlessly. But there is alot of chopping up and fast crossfading and paying attention not to completely screw up phase... I can only do this using Vegas, but I'm sure it's possible with other editors - but likely a butt load of alot more difficult/time-consuming, hehehe... at least for me.... Good luck with it 8)