It all depends on how you intend to use the devices? If you feel that you need much more sophisticated equalization, then you probably want the 81 version device? The 73 version devices do not have as versatile an equalization section when it comes to frequency selections and peaking versus shelving capabilities. My Old Neve consoles have the 3115 modules which are very similar to the 1073 but with a class "AB" output instead of the pure class A output sections of the 73/81 type devices. There is nothing wrong with a class AB output until they begin to clip, which is symmetrical unlike the asymmetrical clipping of the pure class A outputs, which is more similar to how a tube overloads. The input sections are all class A. I have never been disappointed with my more limited capability equalizers as the sound of the microphone preamplifiers are so wonderful sounding. If it doesn't sound right going in, change the microphone before you start playing with the equalizers.

You are only as good as your technique
Ms. Remy Ann David

Thanks Remy :D

"If it doesn't sound right going in, change the microphone before you start playing with the equalizers. "

Thats what I was thinking, get it sounding right going in with the mic and pre without EQ. Hence my other posts on mics.

Just confusing a little bit when the pres have EQ for taloring the sound as its going in. :-?

the X73i uses one amp twice in its path instead of having 2 separate amps like the X73 and X81 . Is this an issue?

I spent the extra money and got a pair of X81's and am very glad that I did. I often don't use the eq when recording, but am glad I have it for mixing.

Well you purchase the Vintech and Neve stuff for the color it creates. Not for its sonic integrity even though it has much.

It doesn't matter how many "Op-Amps" or transformers are in the signal path, that are contained within since they all add to the coloration. It's only an issue if you want to make it an issue or somebody wants to tell you that it is an issue that doesn't know Jack.

Of course the equalizers are there so that you can tailor the sound while tracking if you should so desire. I usually add or subtract some frequencies, most of the time, when tracking. I don't just reserve the equalizers for mixing. Although many people do. I love to live dangerously and take risks! Wow! What a concept!

Dangerous engineer with big OP-AMPS!
Ms. Remy Ann David

QUOTE
"the X73i uses one amp twice in its path instead of having 2 separate amps like the X73 and X81 . Is this an issue?"

THis is very incorrect information. The X73i has one less TRANSFORMER not amp. THe input transformer for mic pre acts as the input tranformer for the line input (but in reverse) when in line mode. When using as a mic pre, any of them only use 2 transformers, and input and an output, and they are identical transformers. The only difference is when you are using it in Line mode because the X73-81 use a different transformer for the input than the mic transformer in reverse. So in line mode on the X73-81, the mic transformer is totally out of the circuit. I have used all of them, and sound wise actually prefere the X73i. It is the only one that has a ohm switch which gives you more tonal options and it just sounds smoother to me.

Coldsnow

thanks for the correction. I meant transformer, dont know why I typed op amp LOL :oops:

so lets say I was mainly going to be using either an X73 or X73i with an AKG 414 for hip hop vocals with my MOTU 896 HD.

I'll be using plugins and stuff in my DAW too, but which would be a smarter buy the X73 or the 73i. Money is tight and I don't want to buy the i and find out its a cheap rip off, but it seems like its better at some things and worse at some things.

There are no 'rip-offs' at this point and level of equipment...only which is 'right' for the use.

All of the Vintech units are really good. Its when people start trying to compare them to 25 year old pieces and assume that these are supposed to be clones. They are based on the designs but have a voice of their own...one thats very usable BTW.

Davedog wrote: There are no 'rip-offs' at this point and level of equipment...only which is 'right' for the use.

All of the Vintech units are really good. Its when people start trying to compare them to 25 year old pieces and assume that these are supposed to be clones. They are based on the designs but have a voice of their own...one thats very usable BTW.

right, i agree. but still for the use of hip hop vocals mainly what are the pros / cons of the X73 vs. x73i for this purpose?

i would have to say that there is a difference between transparency and integrity. tube, transformer, and op-amp based devices all can have potential integrity depending on how well they are designed. but from a technical standpoint tubes have higher EIN, THD, and in essence SNR, therefore making them less transparent and more coloured. im sure this is obvious information to you.

it is correct that you essentially get preamps for colouration at the end of the day, but that is not to say you don't get them for transparency either, afterall i think that is at least half of the reason why transistor and well designed op-amp based circuits were designed.

if you wanted only transparency, you would use digital not analog

liquidstudios wrote: i would have to say that there is a difference between transparency and integrity. tube, transformer, and op-amp based devices all can have potential integrity depending on how well they are designed. but from a technical standpoint tubes have higher EIN, THD, and in essence SNR, therefore making them less transparent and more coloured. im sure this is obvious information to you.

it is correct that you essentially get preamps for colouration at the end of the day, but that is not to say you don't get them for transparency either, afterall i think that is at least half of the reason why transistor and well designed op-amp based circuits were designed.

if you wanted only transparency, you would use digital not analog

ok then what do you suggest as far as to compare the X73, and X73i

x73 or x73i. One is not clearly better than the other for any type of work. Just different. Pick the one that comes closer to having the features you want or need. If you don't know what your exact needs are for hip hop, than either one will work and you will never know the difference anyway.

ok well on the contrary to what davedog said i do believe that most of these pieces like the vintech, amek, maybe API, i dont know theres a bunch, but the point is they all are known for being the nice neve clones. theres nothing wrong with them, they are awesome. the only vintech ive looked at is the 1272 based straight off the neve 1272, and thats why i looked at it. if you are anal about channel strips, then don't get the 73i meaning if you don't want multiple things running through the same circuitry because you believe it adds to noise and you lose bells and whistles as opposed having seperate rack mount units. i don't know if i believe that, and i assume it would be kind of hard to find a Neve EQ that isn't in a channel strip. that EQ section is going to be small though, you know kind of like on the 610's. it's not like you would use this particular EQ section for an outboard component during mastering (i don't do any dynamic processing on the input signal i see it as being useless)

AudioGaff wrote: x73 or x73i. One is not clearly better than the other for any type of work. Just different. Pick the one that comes closer to having the features you want or need. If you don't know what your exact needs are for hip hop, than either one will work and you will never know the difference anyway.

mostly vocals. almost entirely vocals is what it will be used for. occasional acoustic guitar.

Like I said, theres going to be very little difference sonically in the two units. One , the 73i, has a bit more EQ and one less transformer, and this deals only with the path for the DI. And as I said before, though BASED on a classic circuit, the Vintech has managed to come up with a sound of its own, and while SUGGESTIVE of a classic preamp...ala Neve, its still going to sound somewhat different for many reasons...a lot of which are age related. Perhaps when a Vintech gets to be 25 years old or so, it'll be a fair comparison to other elderly gear. But with new everything, its never going to be exactly the same....MY POINT originally as a lot of people seem to think that all clones or devices built with a similar theory in mind are going to reproduce exact tones and act the same in use..... I think they sound great. If you need a mid-range EQ for your voice then get the 73i. If you dont then get the 73. Either way, as my friend Audio Gaffster said, you cant go wrong and if you're unsure of the difference at this point then you'll never know what you're missing. Its gonna sound great regardless. And also to echo the Gaff, he likes his Vintech stuff whilst having access to real Neve etc.....Should tell ya something.

what does age have to do with it? i mean it's definently true that just because you use such and such components you aren't going to achieve a good sound, rather it is crucial that you have a great design implemented with the chasis. obviously Neve has the high class engineered circuit design down, but given the circumstances that it is rather difficult to find an old neve let alone an old vintech. if you could possibly give an accurate explination of why these two pieces might have a different sound technically speaking that is. i mean i realize the judging by the ears is definently a great thing, but i personally wouldn't base my entire judgement on it. when you do, inadvertently, you get into the psycho-acoustic realm and as we all know our ears play tricks on us all the time. not to mention if everyone judged completely by the ears, there would be infinite different possibilites and there would be no need to base anything on accurate factual technical specifications.

on the contrary, i realize that specs are achieved in numerous different ways, some of which for marketing purposes, but some of which developed by engineers. i'm bisexual in my basis for listening and specific evidence.

Age of components has more to with sound character than most people realize. As caps, resisters, transfromers ect... age, they have an overall inpact on the sound or sound character of the unit. This is one big and main reasons why older vintage units with the exact same components can sound drasticly different from one to another. Since the overall enviornment the unit is subjected to over the years has much to do with how components age, you get variance of sound from one unit to another. Even the type of switches, solder, wire, wire length or PC board trace width and/or length can all have impact on sound character.

In addition, components made today are not made like they were in yesteryear, so even with all things being exactly equal as far as components and their values, they are just going to sound different.

I sold my original Neve 1073 and 1081 for a lot of money several years ago. I still have access to them when I really need to use them but in general, I prefer the sound of the pair of X81's. Many of my clients are completely unable to hear any difference. I like and prefer the subtle more modern/newer/tighter sound of the X81's. And I got to buy a whole lot of other killer gear with the money (ViPre, 2nd API 512C and 525, 2nd 1176, AT4060, spare modules for my console, RAM and external HD for my DAW) that I sold the real Neve stuff for. Now I admit that I sometimes regret selling the 1081 as the Class AB thing was unique in tone, but the 1073 I don't miss at all.

haha well yeah the 1081 and the 1272 were better than the 1073 i'd say. and i realize what you are talking about, similar to on drivers glue formulations are important and dust covers add to the sound. older stuff often used generally better small components wheras today they flake out a little bit. a lot of that definently rings true. i just think your concluding point is more valid, because it really is a land of minutia. i like to have sort of an extremist attitude on a lot of that stuff especially when it comes to quality workmanship, but at the end of the day i use my ears just as much as i use the specs. i still don't think that quality components have much to do with age though. like with a driver speaker its a little different. with an old ampex 350 most of the insides are rotten and people restore them with high quality but new chasis components.

your arguement would carry on to saying that a reissue given the exact same circuitry and components with the methods that they were established, would not be as quality sounding as the original. and that is just really hard to stand up to. that is like the giving the marketing term "vintage" a stage to prance around on with your money as the paying audience.

i'm not really discrediting you completely i just don't think it makes much of a difference. a good component is a good component and thats one thing. but that same component "aged" like a fine wine, compared to the same thing just out of the factory (or even handwired in some cases.) hell maybe even your ears are fooling you because technically speaking warmth is caused by noise.

i don't think aged solder means much, aged caps you usually want replaced. but as long as it's the same material and what not.

Components have much to do with it
and age is a factor as AudioGaff said

it's not just about condition and straight up quality but about what component was placed in a circuit and why.

A 20 percent resistor or cap could have be used in an old circuit to give just the right bias point.

A 20% resistor works just as well as 1% resistor
but
a 1k 20% could be 800 ohms or 1200 ohms and either could have been chosen for the above reason ... and you would'nt know unles you had some inside info.
... a new 1K 1% is very close to 1K and so with give a different bias current
this type of situation could come up when refurbishing a ClassA output like that of the BA283.
:roll:
then comes all the Fake 2055 transitors out there and they do sound very different.

Dan K of Great River chose to change this to a TIP modern styled components.
As Dan says the magic is in the detail

At this level and this price the Boutique gear is all about details, and the above is only the begining.

well i bought a x73, thanks for all the input. I decided it was worth the extra few hundred and we'll see. I'll report back on my opinions when I get it, but i'm stoked!

kev, no doubt the type of components you use are crucial. i firmly believe that to be obvious information. what audiogaff is suggesting is that despite being the same fine component in two pieces if one of those fine components is aged like a bottle of merlot it is better.

so say you have an universal audio 610 from long ago, say 15 years. and say you have another 610 everything on the inside EXACTLY the same as the first older one. how could you possibly say that JUST becaue of age something is better?

"Age of components has more to with sound character than most people realize. As caps, resisters, transfromers ect... age, they have an overall inpact on the sound or sound character of the unit. This is one big and main reasons why older vintage units with the exact same components can sound drasticly different from one to another. Since the overall enviornment the unit is subjected to over the years has much to do with how components age, you get variance of sound from one unit to another."

i don't agree with this statement ^^^ its not that i dont agree i just want a bit more explination

Even the type of switches, solder, wire, wire length or PC board trace width and/or length can all have impact on sound character.

i agree with this statement^^^^^hands down

you could go on to say sure in the older days of engineering and design they used different methods and different materials. but that really only goes so far. these are coined "neve clones" for a reason. it's like when a truly great company puts out a reissue of a classic piece, they make sure they use almost all the same components as the original.

maybe you could tell me specifically what is different in a neve 1272 compared to a vintech 1272, or any of the other models. and then you have to ask yourself just like i did when trying to find drivers, are you really gonna pay hundreds if not more extra dollars just because of things like glue formulations, soldering. i mean caps and transformers and what not, those can usually all be replaced, and often its a good idea to do so.

I'm not sure that anyone, Myself, AudioGaff, or Kev said anything about older being "better" in terms of this discussion.
I believe the point is, and has been from the beginning, that there will be a difference. Gaff states clearly that his changing from the "REAL" Neve to the Vintech 'Neveish' pres has been a benefit in several ways. One of which is a tighter lowend. And this would be due to newer unweathered parts within the units themselves. Plus, as Kev said, there are 'details' that the designer has installed in a way as to perhaps IMPROVE on this obviously great circuit design..

I have worked on API consoles that channel to channel were night and day in terms of sound characteristics. This all had to do with age and the breakdowns of various switches,resistors,caps...etc etc...as Kev put so directly. My experience with clones in comparison to 'Vintage' has been much like Gaffs in that they actually sound good enough that no one is ever going to know the difference, and a direct comparison would only be viable between the vintage unit on hand and not the line of vintage units simply because they are all so variable in the sound.

It seems your argument is biased in some direction which has no pertinance here. If you would like to start a new thread and investigate this further, I'm sure that Gaff wont mind in his forum nor will I in mine. Kev is a great DIY'r of the highest degree and would certainly field your takes on build and design in a way that would put to rest any preconceptions towards these things.

Some time ago, in an interview, a very well respected recording engineer and producer said that when he is tracking or mixing, he never looks at the gear and the meters...he only uses his ears and this tells him when its right and when its wrong. Theres no sense naming names, but I assure you its a track record of the highest caliber and timeline.

I'm afraid that I agree for the most part as specs only tell me what a test meter reported....and to this day, I've yet to buy a record or hear music mixed by a test meter.

BTW...Congrats to 'dirtynbl'....You're gonna love that unit. Sorry for the thread hijack!

Da Dog tells like it is. Not once did I or anyone else mention that older or vintage is better or always better. If that were even remotely close to being true, I would still own my 1073 and 1081 and a lot of other gear I have owned in the past. And although I still have, use and love my old Brent Averill 1272, I just about always prefered my 1073 or the 1081 over it.

Not understanding or agreeing with others or my comments on the aging of components just proves how much you have yet to learn. Some basic electonics theory would serve you well as a good investment of time. Once you understand how the flow or lack of electrons flow in components, you may be able to understand how that has an impact on sound.

Here is a hint. Components don't age like wine or cheese. But the materials they are made of deteriate, break down, oxidize, ect. How they breakdown and how much they break down and the like, are among the things that change the sound or sound character.

yes like similar to when you have a bad tube in a guitar amp, it seems to self distort much more, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. but its stupid, its a bad tube. colourations mean something but depicting sound through pro audio recording gear is a little different than the sound that comes out of your guitar amp. colourations mean something, but so does transparency. i would rather achieve my colourations through collectivetivity of a nice design with good components in good condition. i don't know it just seems like a simple judgement to me. while you all believe that i might be too extreme in my specs/whatever else. i think you are taking it a bit too far by using deteriorated components to achieve warmth. like i said, i credit an ampexes warmth to it being an ampex, not to it having deteriorated components.

you could just as easily take a stock piece of new gear straight out of the factory ( haha say a focusrite twin trak master) and load it with deteriorated components, and then what would you have. but yeah sure it influences the sound character, for better or for worse you can be the judge. fine wine or wine caught in the sunlight.

Well, like I said, you have a LOT to learn. Good luck with that...

man, why don't you teach me then. tell me what i said in my last post that would make you say that.

im agreeing with you

You know, it just comes down to picking a card, any card. These are all quality components that you are investigating and because they are quality components, they will all deliver quality outputs provided you include quality inputs. There are nuanced differences in sound between some of these components, for instance, the API has a brighter edgier sound than the smooth talking Neves or clone Vintech's and their numerous variations. Would a Beringer for $200 also be a good pick?? Sure! And would probably sound great for rap and hip-hop. So now, decisions, decisions. Let your creative senses be your guide.

Walk into the light
Ms. Remy Ann David

i mean sure price tag isnt everything but i wouldnt go that far. im not much a fan of rap but some of it isnt bad or is somewhat creative and good. there are certainly good things (namely in the preamp category) for somewhat of a lower price, but not a whole hell of a lot. contrary to what most people say you know i think the mackie XDR preamps are pretty good. obviously good op-amps are very cheap. so the design is even more crucial. its like audiogaffs statement in aging components changing your sound. sure they do, and in all technicality will any different device change your sound in some way, no matter how minute? yeah, but that doesnt mean its good or worthwhile. its the kind of association you just made between hip hop and cheaper equipment that seems to be the judgement most of this "elite" bunch of forum junkies pass on a lot of things and a lot of people. and theres no valid explination to back it up.

to anyone still reading this topic, tell me what you think are some impressive cheaper preamps.

Why dont you boys get back on topic or start your own thread!!

No hijacking please
Thanks :evil:

Since the orginal poster has already bought a Vintech, no nned to continue with all this crap so I am colsing this thread.