A comparison between Taylor 814ce Brazilian Rosewood and East Indian Rosewood

Mic placements between the two was poorly done and I don't much like the pickups in this demonstration or the sound of the mics, everything sounds metallic and cluttered. My thinking... it's never great to have two of the same guitars basically full out for any sort of comparison but, trying to listen through the clutter and rough mic placements, I have a feeling the Brazilian is slightly warmer.

I am noticing how these 814ce appear to sustain a lot more than example, the 714ce I have here.

Rob, that was one thing you mentioned as well. Do they sustain significantly more than other acoustics?

Here is the same 814ce mic'd with a Royer 121, ribbon and someone that knows how to track and play. Sounds 100% better.

audiokid, post: 449153, member: 1 wrote: ...

I am noticing how these 814ce appear to sustain a lot more than example, the 714ce I have here.

Rob, that was one thing you mentioned as well. Do they sustain significantly more than other acoustics?

That's partially what I meant by being alive.... I was doing some single note melodic figures and the decay on the notes was just sublime - it was like I was playing through my boogie -- I could shape the notes through the decay which is not something I've experienced in a steel string acoustic before. It also had very balanced sustain - no single frequency dominated - there was even sustain and decay across it's unique spectrum - so the tonal colour did not suddenly change. It held its tonal character through a variety of playing styles and techniques - so these sustain/decay/tonal colour consistency was equally in balance across the playing tests. How I played did allow me to control elements of that character - that's the responsiveness I was talking about. It could Bite, Chime, Bell tone, whisper, it could chunk or chug-a-long - sizzle and burn sweet.... (I can't think of any more adjectives but I didn't even come close to its limitations) all changeable based on adaptive playing technique or style -- but it had still a consisten recognisable character -- no a single character character (like a bad actor) but like a good actor with range.....

I played in three general positions -- directly facing a wall, facing a corner and facing into a room. I also played in a couple different body and holding positions.... Some of it I planned out, then some of it was inspired by what I heard... I was surprised how much I just wanted to play.

I hope the guitar survives the journey and plays just as well for you as it did me. And I think I mentioned before - I played this one sweet little improvised melody line that had me and the girl in the room both sort of stop and both of us said "wow" or "so sweet" at basically the same time -- that's when I knew -- I had to play it again then it took me down a rabbit hole of coaxing out more nuance and subtlety with me body and fingers and the guitar just took all my inputs and expressed them so well I was hooked hard!

right on.

Its been shipped and I may have it tomorrow. Hopefully surviving the trip as well. :coffee:

DogsoverLava, post: 449155, member: 48175 wrote: I played in three general positions -- directly facing a wall, facing a corner and facing into a room. I also played in a couple different body and holding positions.... Some of it I planned out, then some of it was inspired by what I heard... I was surprised how much I just wanted to play.

Excellent.

DogsoverLava, post: 449155, member: 48175 wrote: I hope the guitar survives the journey and plays just as well for you as it did me. And I think I mentioned before - I played this one sweet little improvised melody line that had me and the girl in the room both sort of stop and both of us said "wow" or "so sweet" at basically the same time -- that's when I knew

I'd say! I hope I have a chance to hear you play one day. I don't think I could have had a better musician pick this out for me.

Rob, its going to be tough writing my review as well as yours but I will give it a whirl.

First off, I love Taylor guitars. I fully agree, the 814ce is a beautiful guitar that plays awesome. You picked a perfect top as well. Thank you for taking the time to do this for me and for putting one away so I could have it sent up here to do a comparison between it and the 714ce.

I spent an hour with the store manager comparing this to the 714ce. We played both guitars. Both thinking about how each one would record and how each one would fit into a band.

Comparing both models, we both noticed a definite springiness to the 814ce neck. Studying why it has such a relaxed springy feeling in comparison to any other acoustic guitar I've ever played, I come to the conclusion that the spring feel must have something to do with the thinner top. Could the top actually be flexing the bridge, almost like a whammy bar feel to it? That's what I'm thinking. Never the less... I love how that feels, especially for doing leads. It was electric feeling indeed.

The next big difference was bass! The 814ce has more bass which also adds to a slightly warmer top end that shines for leads. From the 12th fret on, I loved how it sounded and played. We both felt the middle of the scale range lacked though, as it has a dipped mid to it.
Softly strumming delicately, the 814ce sounded beautiful , but as we both increased dynamics, we felt the lack of mid focus lost our love for it really fast. From a strumming perspective however, we would choose this guitar and I'm already thinking I would like both models now.

But, since I can only choose one for now.... the 714ce blew us both away. The manager would have loved to sell me the 814ce but said, I wouldn't trade that 714ce for an 814ce after hearing the two side by side now. He was so surprised and I was without question, very happy to hear him sharing the same opinion as me. We both agreed that even if he dropped the priced of the 814ce to a 714ce, we would not trade the 714ce. He said he wished he had the money to buy it.

Our conclusion:
Had I not asked the manager to play each guitar so I could hear it, like a mic hears it, I would have likely traded to an 814ce. The feel of the 814ce, how it sounds in your hands was pretty darn nice. It was lighter and fun to play but I didn't love it.

The 714ce mids are exceptional making it a well balanced acoustic guitar for recording and live work. I suspect this thing is going to stand out and turn heads. It turned our heads right away.

It could be that I got lucky, that my 714ce is special but never the less, the awesome mid focus of the 714ce was superior to an 814ce in this comparison.

When you hear the 714ce played from the audience perspective, that's when you go, wow. The bass rolls off very naturally at the spot where a bass guitar would sit.
There is no honk or boom to it. The 814ce on the other hand had a bit of boom and dipped mids . The 714ce was also louder in a very pleasing way that should translate as a good recording, and supporting guitar that would cut through in a mix. I would suspect the 814ce would require bass roll off and some mid eqing to get it to where a 714ce shines naturally.

I left the store with my 714ce smiling. I plan to keep going back to compare more models as my hunt for more acoustic choices continues. The 914ce is next.

I am also thinking to try medium gauge strings on this 714ce. Right now it has light gauge. hmm...

Rob, maybe some other day when you go back to Long & McQuade I would love to hear your opinion with you sitting from the audience chair this time.

Sweet. How awesome is it to have been able to confirm and justify your purchase of the 714ce and know that it stands on its own and you love it. It could be that you have a uniquely exceptional piece that is atypical of the general model of just a testament to the quality of all their models. (Or perhaps the 714 I played was atypical)

You are totally right --- it felt better to play the 814ce - it was more responsive that way.

I did make efforts to hear reflections off walls and corners as well as turning the soundboard 'up" towards me as I played but I think you are right -- the next time I go play a guitar like that I need to hear someone else play it for me. I think that having and feeling the guitar through the body as you play probably does prejudice the experience as does your listening position. I'll remember that for next time. It sounds like a no brainer but it's a good lesson.

I'm really glad you got to play and compare both guitars Chris. I'll pop in tomorrow and see if they have the 914 / I'm still on light duty after my hernia surgery so I've lots of time on my hands right now.

really pleased for you! Enjoy that guitar for sure.

DogsoverLava, post: 449226, member: 48175 wrote: I'll pop in tomorrow and see if they have the 914

Oh ya! The manager of my store is so cool. If they have a 914ce there, I can see his face now! We had a lot of fun doing this. Up until now, he was all over 814ce. My 714ce changed him.

DogsoverLava, post: 449226, member: 48175 wrote: I'm still on light duty after my hernia surgery so I've lots of time on my hands right now.

Well I'm hoping you are healing and taking it easy. Those things take a while to heal.

DogsoverLava, post: 449226, member: 48175 wrote: really pleased for you! Enjoy that guitar for sure.

Thanks. Your help has made this all extra fun and very helpful. I have less wondering. I'm really excited to try the 914ce. If it improved upon the 714ce, I will buy it. I am guessing its the 714ce to perfection.

The best hygrometer placement in a guitar case

Wow, the action of my guitar improves ever so slightly as it gets to its optimal hydration.

Yesterday I invested in a hygrometer. I notice the moisture % rising if the meter is closest to the sound hole where my Oasis humidifier is dangling. Obviously its reading the humidifier more than the moisture absorbed evenly throughout the wood.

What is the best location for a hygrometer in the guitar case for the most accurate reading?

I found this post, which was an comparison done using 3 different locations and 3 different hygrometers in a guitar case.

1. Headstock,
    
2. Storage compartment
    
3. Cutaway area.
   He figured once the case has stabilized, there wasn't more than 1 point change in any of the 3 locations.

   http://www.acoustic…

I wish this was current to the new 2016 Taylor builds. I prefer the 914ce in all these. Hmm... The quest continues.

I will hit L&M for project 914ce in the coming few days.

I've looked right across Canada stores and they have none. It seems I will have to order one with a deposit. I wonder if Tom Lee has any or if there are boutique shops that are Taylor dealers?.

Tom Lee is special order too
http://tomleemusic.ca/180968

completely out of my budget but it would be a thrill to play this just to say it sucked!

$13,171.78 CAD
https://reverb.com/item/3915849-taylor-914ce-milagro-brazilian-rosewood-with-adirondack-top-2016-gloss-natural

Apparently the Brazilian back and side are certified "in danger" wood. The wood for these is specifically saved for Taylor years ago. The guitar comes with certification paperwork for the owner so he/she can take it out of country legally.

There is a demo in Quebec:

That Quebec top is nice -- not sure about that comfort edge though.

DogsoverLava, post: 449276, member: 48175 wrote: not sure about that comfort edge though.

I know. Seems a bit extravagant. But, they are receiving glowing comments about it. The sound and feel is what I am most interested in though. Last guitar of my life and all too.
If it sounds good, its a nice feature. I wonder if it would twist there though. Years down the road the place most important turns into a bondo hack.Is that what you are thinking?

audiokid, post: 449279, member: 1 wrote: I know. Seems a bit extravagant. But, they are receiving glowing comments about it. The sound and feel is what I am most interested in though. Last guitar of my life and all too.
If it sounds good, its a nice feature. I wonder if it would twist there though. Years down the road the place most important turns into a bondo hack.Is that what you are thinking?

Ya - I just see that as a heavy heavy wear area with moisture and friction and wonder how "time tested" it would be as far as durability. I'd have to see one in person to get a better sense of it though -- in photos it just takes away from some of the sacred geometry I've grown to identify with a guitar and it almost seems like a feature in search of a market as opposed to a market driven feature...

I pulled out my concert Classical (the one I shared photos of before) after the visit to L&M and have been playing it for 3 days straight now - digging back into some old repertoire like channeling a dead spirit. Muscle memory just amazes me. Stuff I haven't even attempted in 25 years - my head doesn't know it but my fingers kinda do... I was certainly inspired to play something that had real tone (as opposed to my Yamaha acoustic) after the time with the Taylors. It's been very nurturing to the soul.

Here is a great sound of a 914ce, I'm assuming the pickups as I cant see a mic. Sounds pretty good compared to a lot of demos so far. Better mids. .

You can't see mics because he's been videoed playing along to tracks he's already recorded. Watch how some of the pick hits are accurately in sync and some aren't. Lovely sound, though.

Boswell, post: 449313, member: 29034 wrote: You can't see mics because he's been videoed playing along to tracks he's already recorded. Watch how some of the pick hits are accurately in sync and some aren't. Lovely sound, though.

I've been waiting for you to chime in! Where have you been Bos!

I'm unfortunately not able to see or hear half of what you are seeing at my remote lake home. I have to reduce the playback quality down to the lowest number because I am on a terrible internet speed. I'm hoping they upgrade our access here but for now... I'm suffering in that department. Living on a lake is so beautiful but country life has technology challenges where I am.

That being said, good to hear your praise.
I have noticed Royer 121's as sounding really nice in comparison to the majority of all these online videos.

I'm especially focused on the mid range of my next guitar.

Bos, do you have access to Taylor 914ce where you are?

I just love the 714ce but it lacks just a bit of the overall fullness the 814ce has. The 714ce is so close, but I would pay more money if I could improve upon what is special about the mids of a 714ce.
In comparison, (from the microphones POV) the 814ce sounds like there is big mid range hole missing.
As a player however, an 814ce, is a wonderful experience. Unfortunately, that doesn't sonically translate listening to them as the audience or likely in a mix.

Thoughts?

Here's another video clip, this time from Musikmesse. Terrible background noise, but the quality of the 914ce sound comes through.

Boswell, post: 449331, member: 29034 wrote: Here's another video clip, this time from Musikmesse. Terrible background noise, but the quality of the 914ce sound comes through.

Andy playing while the interviewer held his mic at a surprisingly good position captured it really well in that noisy crowd. Not twangy and lost by any means. That was a good example, thanks boss.

for bright and brilliant any Taylor 214 or above is gonna be 'that' sound of modern pop and pop/rock. Mid/top is what Yamaha and Taylor acoustics do well. I dunno if your ever gonna get amazing lower mids /lows from a Taylor, at least I haven't at stores or in studio. It's really Gibson and Martin for that. The differences can be somewhat subtle, or not, but I've never played an acoustic that had both brilliant mid and top, with robust lows.

You know how it is with guitars, so much depends on the actual instrument and player. It's very difficult to sense the subtle differences any other way besides playing it. Hopefully you get your hands on one audiokid and let us know.

The 900 sounds amazing in both vids. Top class, classic Taylor sound. Strangely for the stuff they were riffing on in clips, I'd use a Martin for, especially the blues stuff, lol but that's just my soundguy side prodding. Taylors have a glisten that is just addictive to play! Great instruments and workmanship alike.

Thanks Kyle.
I've heard no other guitar like the new designed Taylor 714ce or 814ce. Both are very unique. I did shootouts between Martin, Gibson, Taks, Yamaha, Morgan, so many to mentions all and Martin was the closest to new Taylor's (2014 up). The 714ce is the most unique of them all. Which I have here and will most likely keep. I think its partially to do with the Lutz top.

I'm thinking they should be offering a 914ce with the Lutz top. I'm going to ask why it is that they don't.

Interesting about the Lutz top. You bring re-inforce a good point about Taylor doing re designs on their models. I would imagine the 414ce at the studio is somewhere around 10 years old, and is amazing. I played a bunch of Taylor's one day at the store a few years back and didn't feel the higher models were better than the 414 they had, but it could have been my mood the guitars strings ect ect.

I'm glad you got something you like chris! Your always looking to improve, much respect.

Acoustic guitars can be sonically deceiving. After I find a guitar that feels good, I have someone that plays like me, play the ones I am liking so I can hear how it sounds from the listeners (mic) POV.

The new Taylor 814ce sound great from the players perception but are bass heavy (mid shy) in comparison to the Taylor 714ce.
I asked Taylor what made the 714ce mid focus so special and they said it was to do with the Lutz top.
Lutz is what they call a hybrid of Engleman, Sitka. Apparently yielding a sound of vintage (well seasoned/ played) guitar with exceptional mid freq focus.
Those specs live up to what I hear.

Since I started this thread, after I bought a hygrometer I've discovered (thanks to Tony for confirming the importance of a humidifier) my 714ce was at 22% humidity when it should be 47% (it was an especially dry, cold winter here) .
I've been re-hydrating it for a week and today its finally at 40%, starting to sound even better and is noticeably improving the performance of the neck. 40 year veteran here and I never knew how important humility meant to my acoustics. But then again, I've never owned an acoustic as fine built as the 714ce either.

The 714ce is the 414ce on steroids.

audiokid, post: 449366, member: 1 wrote: Acoustic guitars can be sonically deceiving. After I find a guitar that feels good, I have someone that plays like me, play the ones I am liking so I can hear how it sounds from the listeners (mic) POV.

The new Taylor 814ce sound great from the players perception but are bass heavy (mid shy) in comparison to the Taylor 714ce.
I asked Taylor what made the 714ce mid focus so special and they said it was to do with the Lutz top.
Lutz is what they call a hybrid of Engleman, Sitka. Apparently yielding a sound of vintage (well seasoned/ played) guitar with exceptional mid freq focus.
Those specs live up to what I hear.

Since I started this thread, after I bought a hygrometer I've discovered (thanks to Tony for confirming the importance of a humidifier) my 714ce was at 22% humidity when it should be 47% (it was an especially dry, cold winter here) .
I've been re-hydrating it for a week and today its finally at 40%, starting to sound even better and is noticeably improving the performance of the neck. 40 year veteran here and I never knew how important humility meant to my acoustics. But then again, I've never owned an acoustic as fine built as the 714ce either.

The 714ce is the 414ce on steroids.

Excellent!!

Update. I am so happy over what I discovered about humidity hoping to pass on this to help you.

I have this Taylor 714ce at 43% humidity now (3% off perfect) and it just entered the level of precision performance and tone excellence that I never expected it would reach. In fact I've never had or played an acoustic guitar this precise.

Conclusion: Without the hygrometer I would never have known where the optimal humility should be in an acoustic guitar, thus completely guessing the humidity dialed in on the luthier's precise built specs.
> Humidity is looking like another one of those WOW! that's how they do that! The hygrometer falls into the pro guitar category like gain staging meters do with pro audio.

All the years trying guitars out in stores, I can only imagine how many good ones get missed because they are dry.

For all the guitarist and studios out there, this post is for you.

Getting the humidity on spec took this acoustic guitar from awesome to perfection in a week.
The difference between 10% humidity made it possible to fine tune the truss relief within a business card which improved the tone and action to pro level, increasing my ability to become more dynamic especially noticeably from the 12 fret on with no fret buzz, better sustain.

To reiterate: I needed my bridge to rise "ever so slightly" which was all the difference I needed to "dial in the neck truss relief curve" yielding a beautiful action perfect to the 20th fret.
Sound wise, the tone and sustain improved as well.

The Armrest test. Hype or fact: Try it for yourself.
The Taylor 914 series has what they call an armrest. https://www.taylorg…

Andy Powers, the designer of these guitars has said this small angle beveled out of the corner improves the sound of the guitar reducing the damping effect one's strumming arm might otherwise have on the top.

Hm... I thought to myself, why not see what it sounds like if I lift my strumming arm off the corner (body top) . Wow, low and behold... there is a noticeable tone increase.

I confirm what this poster said here. http://www.acoustic…

Well, hate to say Andrew, but an armrest - at least a John Pearse - has been shown to keep one's arm from resting on the top allowing the top to fully vibrate, therefore allowing more power and projection.

I'm sure it's hardly noticeable on some guitars though . . .

I definitely hear an improvement in tone when I lift my arm off the top. I had no idea the effect my arm has on the top. Does it matter? Maybe or maybe not. I find this interesting at the very least.

In my classical days in the early 90's I witnessed one bad event related to humidifiers that spooked me and I never looked into them... Had a friend with (I think) a hand-made Ramirez Classical that he was very proud of (literally given to him by the maker). I was at his house one day between classes and he excitedly brought out this new guitar humidifier he had bought that was supposed to be mounted in the sound hole. I watched him fill this thing up with water (I guess there was some sort of sponge in it) and he proceeded to try and mount the thing in the sound hole. As he fumbled with it we both watched this large drip of water fall through the sound hole into the guitar and land right on the maker's hand written, numbered and signed label. It took seconds but the signature and serial number instantly became a ruined black washed mess - completely obscured and basically ruined. He couldn't even get anything in there to dab it out because the guitar was strung. It was tragic and I completely dismissed anything to do with humidifiers and guitars ever since.

I'm really interested in what you've posted here and will revisit the idea of humidifiers - particularly for my own hand made classical guitar. I just need to read a bit more about them and how moisture is measured and what sort of maintenance is required to maintain them. I'm sitting in my home studio right now and have 6 guitars literally within reach (with more tucked away). I like to have them out and ready to go but if there's a winning strategy for use and storage that is sustainable over time in terms of real world use I better look into it.

I handed my 2002 414ce ltd to a young chap that plays at our Sunday coffee shop jam. He's eyes just about popped out of his head and I thought I saw some drool. It's been played a heap and on its second set of frets. I actually had it setup for me on the second set. Over the time since I bought it, it's just got better. Biggest thing I like about it, separation of string tone, can still handle a thrashing, and best of all I love the neck contour.

audiokid, post: 449322, member: 1 wrote: Bos, do you have access to Taylor 914ce where you are?

I did a trawl round all the guitar stores in reasonable reach, and absolutely none of them stocked any Taylors above the 400 series. Some blamed retrenchment after Brexit devaluation, others said the higher-end instruments were special-order only because there was "little demand". My feeling is that, unless you have a couple of top-enders there to try out, it's very hard to place the sound of the middle-range instruments.

I've played many Taylors that clients have brought in, but I've personally gone the Martin route and don't own a Taylor. I've never had the opportunity to try the new series Taylor 700, 800 or 900s, and this thread whets my appetite. Looks like I may have to travel some distance to find one, though.

DogsoverLava, post: 449403, member: 48175 wrote: In my classical days in the early 90's I witnessed one bad event related to humidifiers that spooked me and I never looked into them... Had a friend with (I think) a hand-made Ramirez Classical that he was very proud of (literally given to him by the maker). I was at his house one day between classes and he excitedly brought out this new guitar humidifier he had bought that was supposed to be mounted in the sound hole. I watched him fill this thing up with water (I guess there was some sort of sponge in it) and he proceeded to try and mount the thing in the sound hole. As he fumbled with it we both watched this large drip of water fall through the sound hole into the guitar and land right on the maker's hand written, numbered and signed label. It took seconds but the signature and serial number instantly became a ruined black washed mess - completely obscured and basically ruined. He couldn't even get anything in there to dab it out because the guitar was strung. It was tragic and I completely dismissed anything to do with humidifiers and guitars ever since.

I used one of those sponge tubes and did the same thing. Never used one again. But, I have revised hydration with a new understanding .
The tube humidifiers are still around and there are even more aggressive methods for the really dry guitars but they suggest safeguards like tipping the guitar up when pushing these sponge types (wet cloths inside perforated bags) into the hole to pervert drips. Also, you need to have some common sense not to put a soaking wet sponge etc.

Never the less, the unit I have"Oasis" does not drip at all. You can also get varies brands of humidifiers that go in your case, not the guitar.

I've found the most accurate way to get the humidity reading with a miniature meter (which isn't saying I trust these at all) is to remove the humidifier from the guitar, put the hygrometer inside the guitar and place a shiny card stock paper over the whole. Give it an hour and then look at the value with the hygrometer inside the guitar.
Checking it with the hygrometer in the case (not in the hole) gives a 10 + % lower reading which would mean I could over hydrate it.
The case is obviously effecting the reading but I've also read it can take a while for the case to climatically hydrate as well. Makes me wonder about mold.

Never the less, I'm not overly confident with my miniature hygrometer. I have a better one on my wall which is likely best to go by, then use common sense.

Humidification and Barigo Hygrometers
http://www.12fret.c…

@Makzimia
Hey Tony and friends, it seems that once our guitars are humidified close to spec, the "guitar humidifiers" example "Oasis" refilling times drops down significantly. I'm starting to think the combination of a good wall hydrometer gauge and required refill times of the "inside the case" humidifiers together, gives a pretty accurate reading.

Its comes down to common sense and knowing where my action feels best , how fast my Oasis humidifier needs refilling. Its been days where the humidifier is at the same level and my guitar is just where I like it.

One Oasis is likely just right for the "normal climate" and I'm now guessing I may need a second humidifier for the really dry times in winter months.

Is that how you roll with this all?

Makzimia, post: 449404, member: 48344 wrote: I handed my 2002 414ce ltd to a young chap that plays at our Sunday coffee shop jam. He's eyes just about popped out of his head and I thought I saw some drool.

That would have put a big smile on me too!

Makzimia, post: 449404, member: 48344 wrote: Over the time since I bought it, it's just got better. Biggest thing I like about it, separation of string tone, can still handle a thrashing, and best of all I love the neck contour.

Hearing that makes me look forward to age! Is your 2002 Taylor 414 ce ltd neck similar to the necks today? I love the neck on them.