wonderful song.

I hope this helps Tony, I don't mean to be so negative all the time but I know a few small changes will make big improvements.

What is bothering me most is how disconnected your reverbs are with vocals. If I was in control, I would find a common reverb that the music and vocals shared, you can still add more and less per instrument but the point being, that the soundscape "sound" like it was part of the performance. Right now, the keyboard actually sounds right, and the vocals completely unglued. If everything shared a common room, it would gel better.

I'm guessing you are using a keyboard patch (flute/recorder) with the keyboards internal reverb? I try really hard to avoid using reverbs that aren't part of my mix for this very reason.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Chris, what's actually happening is, I am fairly sure I'm not getting the DBX - Eventide chain still ... Thank you for the comments. Back to total mix to make it go into a separate track I think.

I presumed sending 1-2 input to 31-32 software then hearing it at 31-32 out was right *sigh*. Glad you like the song.

Tony

I like the song, Tony.

Performance wise:
Timing is pretty ragged throughout the song ... you're not hearing that ? I think it's your downbeat that is drifting... which is okay if it drifts a little, the thing is, everything else has to drift with it. ;)
6/8 can be tough sometimes... I'd like to hear everything at least hitting the "down" at the same time. Right now it's not tight, and it's distracting. I know that using a click on something like this isn't what most would prefer to do, because you don't want it to be robotic-ally "stiff" ...but in this situation, it might help to at least have a count (triplet-time) on the 1 and the 4 ( the "down" and the "up").

Mix:
I agree with Chris, the space seems disconnected. Are you using different verbs on this for different instruments?

As Chris suggested, you may want to try using one reverb on the whole mix, and then adjusting the sends to the that verb per track, appropriate to space, feel and dimension that sounds best.

I really do like the song, though. ;)

I think that music style suits you very well. Again, nice song !
I too believe that the reverbs need work, the guitar and the vocal need to be in that feeric place.
Yes the timming could be better but without being steril
It might be me, because I'm not at the studio, but the stereo spectrum is a bit off. There is much more going on to my right. May be it's just the flute who could be in the center.
I thought the percussions were a bit dark but it's more a taste thing.

All in all, I'd say, Give it love, that's the best song I heard from you yet ! ;)

@Chris DonnyThompson pcrecord

Thanks guys :) this song is one of 7 I perform live all the time. I hear you Donny about timing, I did feel some was definitely dragging or preempting, but, I had hoped I had mostly gotten away with it for a first mix LOL. I am sorely out of practice at playing my drumming on the keys. Re reverb, I am going to remove what is a headache for me, for now. I am not gelling at all with running external gear during my sessions still. None of you really know me, and the recording process in general, of my own stuff ruins my creative vibe on most days.

Marco, yes I think the balance is a little over right too, wife liked it, and trust me she's a good critic, although she didn't pick the timing issues, maybe we are all too fussy compared to a lot of listeners?. LOL.. anyway, it's worth fixing as you say :).

Thank you all for your time and suffering of my floundering around as I try to reach a new level. I will attempt to right my wrongs today in a more basic approach.

Regards,

Tony

If you are recording percs with a midi controler, it's very easy to quantise the track. If you are like me and like to keep some life in your tracks, most quantising software can place notes but with a pourcentage of accuracy. I usually use between 95 to 98% ;)

Makzimia, post: 426166, member: 48344 wrote: None of you really know me, and the recording process in general, of my own stuff ruins my creative vibe on most days.

You're nowhere near alone on this, Tony. I have many friends who are great musicians - and who have become pretty adept at the recording process, too - but they don't really like that side of it. Lots of artists don't.
I have a good friend - we've known each other almost 40 years, toured together, chased skirts together, composed together.... he's a great singer, a charismatic front man, a true entertainer, a wonderful writer, too... but, he loathes the recording process. Absolutely despises it. It's not as if he doesn't know anything about it, he's done more sessions than either one of us could probably count, he just hates that whole side of the business. He loves performing live.... He just gets very bored, very fast, in the studio. He wants to be ale to walk in, lay down his vocal track, and leave. He doesn't hang around for the mixing or the production.

There are many artists who focused strictly on the performance - cats like Sinatra, Elvis Presley, and many others who have been vocal about their dislike for the whole process of recording in general.

Then there are musicians like Buddy Holly, Todd Rundgren, Alan Parsons, Brian Wilson, Prince, etc., who are great artists as well, but who also love the recording process as an art form in and of itself... those people, who over the years, have used the studio and its technology as another " instrument".

I feel both ways at various times. It depends on my mood, and what I'm working on at the time, too. There are times where I just want to get the song down, to concentrate on the arrangement, the playing, the singing...throw it together, jack the faders up and call it finished.... but, there are also those times when I love to be an engineer - to open up my trick bag, and pull out all those cool little things that I've learned over the years; setting up mics, adjusting positions, switching them out, and in mixing, to have a hand in making the tracks sit where I want them, to sculpt tone, create space and depth, to work squeaky clean - or, add grit - or any combination of all of the above. LOL

If you don't like the recording process, there are options available. Perhaps you might look for a musician in your area who does like that side of it, and who also digs what you are doing musically... a collaborator of sorts - a situation that allows you to focus on the music, and let the other guy handle more of the technical side.

It's also helpful to have someone around who can also chime in when needed, too... to catch the little things that maybe you haven't - like a ragged 6/8 time, for example. ;)

Do what you love doing the most - swallow just enough of the technical part - just enough - to get your tracks recorded as cleanly as possible, and then, send them out to a mix engineer like Chris, or Me, or Boswell, or Dave, or Hawk, or Marco, or Kyle...I'm not intentionally leaving anyone out of this list ... after all, we're here chatting on a site called "recording.org", so it's not exactly as if pro engineers are in short supply around here. LOL....

Lord knows, there are plenty of us here who wouldn't mind the work. ;)

FWIW

d.

pcrecord DonnyThompson

Thanks for support and solidarity :). I went back to basics today, zero outboard all ITB. Marco, I don't use midi vsti stuff on this song, that is all live playing, guitar and keyboard. I put the metronome on (after I used my bpm reader to find the tempo) the guitar was at 109.9 ( I went for 110). Once again thanks for any feedback, I THINK I have it a lot more along this way...

Donny, if I could have found someone to play with I would have by now... the USA has been more or less a wash for 12 years of living here. Anyone I have come across has either been a flake or doesn't have the time to work on anything. I miss the UK and Australia at times like this. And yes, I know there are plenty here, but, I blew my budget for music for some time to come :(.

Anyway, here is recording and mix number two, all was new except the guitar.

[MEDIA=soundcloud]tony-carpenter-1/the-minstrel-and-marie-take-2

Cheers,

Tony

Your mix is quite nice, better balance, good dynamics. Although everything could be brighter, but this could be done at mastering.
Now, it needs a place to live. If you have a room simulator or nice reverb (ITB or OTB) what you want to do is to apply it to everything but with a low pass around 4 to 6k and an Hi pass around 150-300hz.
You should be able to imagine listening to a band in a particular place of your choice. (concert hall, church, etc...) ;)

Makzimia, post: 426177, member: 48344 wrote: the USA has been more or less a wash for 12 years of living here.

specifically regarding just this ,
This is what collaboration is all about.
We are able to work on peoples tracks anywhere in the world. There are no limits today. As an example, I play a mean guitar and sing like Colin from Men at Work with a touch of Tom Petty
I have a guitar style like Santana, SRV or George Benson.
I have your session, I could easily import it, play a guitar track and send it back.
I could also very easily just import a master track, play along with it and give you just my guitar track. As long as we zero the session, anyone can collaborate with you.

This is 100% better, Tony! Put a bit more reverb on your voice. So it sounds like you are outside! Just a bit...

Actually, put it on the entire mix. it will gel it immediately!

For fun, please, please please... send me the audioclip you just posted of this. I cannot resist doing something for you "for fun!":love:. I love this now.

In the mean time, if the kick was less pronounced, I think it would be better. And, you have changed the levels from 200 where its too obvious. It sounds like you turned the vox up. Turn the music down and possibly a touch less reverb just for the intimate effect you are going for there, then as it gets back to the song, back to the mains spacial effect of the song again.

pcrecord audiokid

Hi Guys, I actually put everything into an AUX with reverb, and an AUX with delay separate levels for each part but very close to each other. I am guessing, you still are saying I need to put a reverb on the 2-bus too still. I usually do, and did, then removed it LOL. I'll put the song in drop box for you, thanks Chris :). I understand about the collaboration part BTW, I just don't like to bother busy people, bad enough as it is :-/.

Makzimia, post: 426184, member: 48344 wrote: I am guessing, you still are saying I need to put a reverb on the 2-bus too still.

For this style of music, I would definitely have a reverb on the two bus. Bricasti's are great for this. I learned just how great they are only after owning a few and experimenting with them during mastering. I sold them once I realized where they shine and how to emulate them where it counts. (I'm also planning on buying the new model if and when it is released)
Had I not gone through that evolution owning the Dangerous Master and those, I don't know if I would have trusted doing that. Its amazing how little you need to go a long ways.

looking forward to the track. I have a feeling I'm not the only one finding this pretty refreshing now.

audiokid, post: 426185, member: 1 wrote: For this style of music, I would definitely have a reverb on the two bus. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.bricasti…"]Bricasti[/]="http://www.bricasti…"]Bricasti[/]'s are great for this.

What ever Makzimia does, he needs to know that a reverb on the two bus meens that everything you hear comes from the output of the verb.
On the other hand, I prefer using a AUX bus to still hear the direct sound be blend some reverb in it... (big difference here)
Just my 2 cents ;)

pcrecord, post: 426186, member: 46460 wrote: What ever Makzimia does, he needs to know that a reverb on the two bus meens that everything you hear comes from the output of the verb.

indeed.
This is where you trust your DAW's two bass and the verb plug-in is good. 3% wet, the rest passes through. It should only add space and not smear the imaging. I'll try it for fun on Sequoia. Maybe do something else to shake it up.

audiokid, post: 426187, member: 1 wrote: This is where you trust your DAW's two bass and the verb plug-in is good. 3% wet, the rest passes through.

I should have said that I don't thrust plugins to be transparent even at 0% wet. That's why I prefer using 2 signal path. ;)

I was leaning the same way, but, the UAD EMT-140 is very good. I did put it on the 2-bus, but then I took it off :-/. Anyway, the duty of what Chris is referring to was the Eventide, but, with my troubles, I have bagged all that, for now.

pcrecord, post: 426189, member: 46460 wrote: I should have said that I don't thrust plugins to be transparent even at 0% wet. That's why I prefer using 2 signal path. ;)

Its why I use Sequoia, a world class recording, editing and mastering DAW with a mastering suite that is (I'd like to say better) than the highest level of analog mixing/mastering gear I've used.
This is a great example of why audio is so subjective. And here is something you don't read everyday.

Aside from my personal skills or lack of ... Not until I bought some of the best gear in the world, started comparing it to Samplitude, Pro Tools, Sonar, Ableton did I actually learn why some products are so good or what character means in the imaging, why mixing and mastering guru's use certain consoles and methods to hear.

Having world class analog console like the Neos and Dangerous Master for inserting, mixing and summing, comparing just mastering products, comparing both mixing and mastering to each other and comparing all that via round trip to a two DAW capture process, allowed precision transparency to cause and effect. This without question, gave me serious advantage to discover and learn how a computer can be a lot more than just a means to capture and cook audio.

After a few years of learning through this, teaching my ears much like we do with monitors and room acoustics, it is my opinion, one DAW is actually better for everything but summing.
But the summing isn't the set back of the DAW per-say. Simply put, when you can mix into a second daw ( preferably a mastering software with a high quality summing box or master console as the bridge to the capture, through a good stereo converter that is configured to your destination SR, I've not heard better or experienced the speed I can finish with one DAW. Analog basically gums up the imaging in comparison. And cheaper analog gear may add character but simply destroys everything else. Its a no brainer to me.

Being able to mix at 96k HD quality song, in a single pass the sum into example: 44.1, removes all the bouncing or possibilities that your sum may get changed between the mix and sum of one DAW or a round trip. Being able to hear the finish line through the capture converter is part of the essentials process, which is part of this never ending subjective discussion. Digital audio is incredible. This whole game is about hearing.

So, I would say my experience is pretty subjective. If I just said , "I love hybrid" this would really be pulling our legs here. Hybrid is very subjective.
If a plugin had potentiometer, less turns is always more than analog turns. Meaning, noticing a 2% change in analog might equal 6% change with digital. Its easy to over process digital and turn a mix into a confusing mess (especially when we are born with fingers and like big trucks) Once I realized that, I feel I'm actually growing with technology in the right direction. There are good plug-ins and bad ones.

@Makzimia I've uploaded two version of this, One using Fabfilter Pro L which added about 5db for fun and maybe you like it to add to your arsenal. Its the only limter I use..
This is really sounding great Tony.
If I had the tracks, I would be looking to add more bottom end on a particular group rather that the whole mix, but I did it anyway. the first thing I would do is pull the drum down because adding bass to the mix, it also increasing the drum, which I want less of it, but I would want it fuller and wider in the garden.
I also centered the lower mids, hpf, the sides (M/S), added some verb and a touch of delay to the 2-bus. If I had more time, I would actually add an outdoor garden ambiance, to put in into the century.

Its really cool. Loads of potential. There is a tiny pitch flat on the vox (2:27) that I noticed, otherwise I like the timing and pitch now. The acoustics are a bit out of phase, but in stereo, its sound really nice.
I added a few db in the upper mids and a wide curve on the subs up to 300hz.

I did this on headphones in my bedroom on a laptop. My studio is dissembled.

thats the skinny. Its ripe for mastering or more mixing.

I'd love to hear others try this as well. How fun.. and thanks for sharing it.

It would be cool if we could upload our MP3's of this and store it on the server but I also understand its yours and you may not want it public for the rest of RO's life... ;)

audiokid Good morning Chris :). Thanks for your efforts, I admit some of the changes are lost on my PC speakers. Number of versions you put up are a sign of a man with a brain like mine LOL (Leigh made me say it). I just couldn't choose off the top of my head, but I definitely heard the glue content on at least 2 of them. I'll listen on the studio speakers too.

Just to give anyone, and you, background, since Leigh and I wrote these songs. The songs are all set in halls of lords, various sizes, usually stone and wood buildings with drapes on walls etc. I actually used UADs reverb pro and created a room to suit the situation, it was in use on the AUX BUS that I fed all the tracks too,needs to be on the 2-bus too, obviously :).

Also, in relation to the bass drum, it's actually an orchestral style kettle drum (period obviously), and as such has more sub harmonics than a bass drum per say. I definitely heard the harp much nicer too :). All the work on the harp and flute and perc was from the Yamaha Motif XF-8. Per your advice, and I used to do it live, I removed the effects off the sounds on the keyboard. I used to use an external effect live back in the day an Alesis Quadraverb midi'ed up to change patches as I changed sounds.

I actually don't mind a version of the song up in MP3 by the way if it helps down the track :). I definitely don't want to gum up my SC with lots of versions over time LOL.

Thanks,

Tony

I have a question for anyone in general. What would be the cause of a word sounding correct on a track on it's own, then being effectively truncated when heard in conjunction with say guitars?. My first word is Twas, yet in the mix I hear only was. It's as clear as a bell when I solo the vocals with all usual effects and 2-bus. The moment I play the guitar tracks it's diminished, for want of a better word.

Thanks,

Tony

u can actually upload the mp3 I provided in the Folder to the RO server via the upload link we use for images.

Makzimia, post: 426200, member: 48344 wrote: I have a question for anyone in general. What would be the cause of a word sounding correct on a track on it's own, then being effectively truncated when heard in conjunction with say guitars?. My first word is Twas, yet in the mix I hear only was. It's as clear as a bell when I solo the vocals with all usual effects and 2-bus. The moment I play the guitar tracks it's diminished, for want of a better word.

Thanks,

Tony

That would be phase cancellation. Whatever you are doing in the mix (vocals and guitar) is creating a fair amount of that. I also noticed bottom end freq spread wide. To improve this versions, I mono'd the low end and hpf the sides.

My 8 year old daughter was singing it around the house btw.

audiokid
Heya Chris, I am perplexed at this point... I recorded the guitar and vocals separately. Guitar is a one take 2 mics. Wait until you hear the other new ones, even catchier, if you can believe that :D. I have added hpf mono on the guitar which is on two mono tracks. I'll look again. Thank you :).

Makzimia, post: 426197, member: 48344 wrote: I actually used UADs reverb pro and created a room to suit the situation, it was in use on the AUX BUS that I fed all the tracks too,needs to be on the 2-bus too, obviousl

I'm guessing this is where you went wrong. That created all the phasing issues.

I never heard anything in this from that UAD process you just described that gave me that effect. It was missing from my perspective which is why I added it at the final mix to the entire track (once !)

fyi, the tracks in the added folder are all the same version with one made louder using the Fabfilter ProL. The other two are 6db lower in volume, one being an mp3.

The same applies for the tracks I put in your root folder. Those are all the same versions but with a slight less reverb.

So basically, I have two version, one with more verb, one with less.

audiokid, post: 426204, member: 1 wrote: I'm guessing this is where you went wrong. That created all the phasing issues.

I tried turning off the AUX BUS, and it's still an issue. What you were given had no reverb on the 2-bus at all. You are correct about the phase issue... so what to do?. I turned on only one left guitar of the pair and the voice, and I can hear the Twas, so.. I do have the ability to reverse phase on a track, I think, should I do that to both guitar tracks, or just one?.

Right guitar I thought was the issue. It is only when I combine them across the mix. I can hear Twas with either soloed and just voice. And, I don't see a way to phase change them. Perhaps making them sit at zero pan?.

Thanks for your patience and help :).

Tony

I reorganized my version in our Dropbox. Can we upload the MP3 version here?

Makzimia, post: 426205, member: 48344 wrote: I tried turning off the AUX BUS, and it's still an issue. What you were given had no reverb on the 2-bus at all.

Yes, I understand. Which is why I wanted to added it on the 2-bus to demostrate the difference

regarding phasing, I'm not what I would consider a recordist so I can't advise you like others on tracking. You must be using some sort of effect in the mix to induce phase.
This was especially noticeable when I mono'd the center, the vox came way up in level and the guitars dropped back.If you upload my mp3, we can hear how imho, this improved the track a lot.
To my knowledge, If you record mono tracks, they shouldn't decrease in volume when you mono the mix. Flipping the phase will without doubt help. If I had add the tracks, it would be easy to determine that.

audiokid, post: 426206, member: 1 wrote: I reorganized my version in our Dropbox. Can we upload the MP3 version here?

Yes, and thanks for reorganizing :) my brain is not onboard first thing in the morning :).

mine

Makzimia, post: 426208, member: 48344 wrote: Yes, and thanks for reorganizing :) my brain is not onboard first thing in the morning :).

and mine was around my youngest last night dancing to this lol. I uploaded them asap and had to stop short.

audiokid, post: 426207, member: 1 wrote: This was especially noticeable when I mono'd the center, the vox came way up in level and the guitars dropped back

With the changes I have tried so far today, if I mono the guitar and vocals all volume is equal on mono or stereo.

Good, what did you do to change this?

Makzimia, post: 426200, member: 48344 wrote: I have a question for anyone in general. What would be the cause of a word sounding correct on a track on it's own, then being effectively truncated when heard in conjunction with say guitars?. My first word is Twas, yet in the mix I hear only was. It's as clear as a bell when I solo the vocals with all usual effects and 2-bus. The moment I play the guitar tracks it's diminished, for want of a better word.

A usual explanation for this is sub-optimal inserting of a compressor. In this case it would be the guitar triggering the compressor and taking the vocal start with it if the vocals are routed through the same compressor. I don't know how you have your compressors set up, so I can't tell whether this applies to this song.

Boswell, post: 426212, member: 29034 wrote: A usual explanation for this is sub-optimal inserting of a compressor. In this case it would be the guitar triggering the compressor and taking the vocal start with it if the vocals are routed through the same compressor. I don't know how you have your compressors set up, so I can't tell whether this applies to this song.

Ahh haa... thanks Bos, I have one compressor per guitar L R then one on the 2 BUS they all go through. I have however disabled all on the 2-bus and it still is the issue.

I did just disable the comps on the guitar tracks and voila... what the hell... something in the way I have total mix working? sending everything to 31-32 maybe going into every track, even with no inputs turned on?... I am confuzzled, as usual :D.

Personally, I don't hear the comps in the version I did, effecting what Bos is describing. What I hear is a problematic way you may be tracking, mixing or summing in the mix matrix itself.. If you posted my track, you can hear mass improvement just by me removing the bass off the sides and mono'ing the low end. Which would make an interesting observation and point towards your setup rather than just compression contributing towards this.
I'm not sure what you are doing, or if you are aware of everything in the process but I don't think its related to just compression, at this point.

Chris, I removed a M/S processor from the 2-bus this morning for one, I also added some HPF more, as you did. I added the real verb pro on the 2-bus and a limiter now too. At this point, what Bos said did in fact remove the issue instantly. And I'll put that Mp3 you did up now :)

audiokid, post: 426214, member: 1 wrote: What I hear is a problematic way you may be tracking, mixing or summing in the mix matrix itself

I'd be willing to accept this, except, with literally everything turned off, and only going out to the orion and to the speakers, there is nothing to cause it. I did hear Twas after turning off the comps on guitar. However, it appears to be intermittent :-/.

Further to this.. Using only left or right *(with comp on)* allows me to hear Twas clear as a bell, moment I got both and pan, it's gone.