I didn't compare the vlz and profx.. but I heard the VLZ and they are honest pre, I would not accept less than them in a mackie.
Allen and Heath was my better choice for a long time.. The Zed serie is said to be very nice. The Yamaha, well it's yamaha, they have a very distinct sound but if you are into them it works.

You don't say what you want to do. But, you may want to consider the Presonus digital mixer.. the Ai is very interesting the possibility to save setups is a good thing to have. Good preamps too.

Now I should say that mixers are good but choosing them for quantity over quality isn't to help on the long run.
Unless you do live shows, some audio interfaces have everything these mixers have + some with better sound and take less space.

I had a Soundcraft mixer for a long time.. They sound very good and are not that expesive (they compare to A&H very much)
But after a while using it in my studio I found that having many average preamps was building up a sound that was similar recording after recording, good but far from commercial album quality.

I replaced it with an RME fireface 800 interface and bought some boutique preamps.. Of course they are expesive, but when I got my first ISA and pushed record for the first time it was like an epiphany. My reflection was '' AH!! That's how they do it!! ''
Even simple SM57 sounds amazingly different on a highend preamp.

So make you choice with this in mind. Having a balance between channel count and quality is a must if quality recording is your thing ;)

Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 is nuts

soggy mittens, post: 451123, member: 50611 wrote: Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 is nuts

not much that special about it in my view. if you can live with mediocre converters and mic pres, it's ok. it has lots of features you likely won't use. bells and whistles and pretty lights. sfm tech, all those touch pad switches will fail and good luck replacing them. will probably last 4 or 5 years before problems begin to show. planned obsolescence. great big boy toys, lousy tools for long term professional use. when i reviewed an M80 from PreSonus for RO many years ago, i found them to be not even as good than those in a first generation Mackie 24/4 VLZ.

PreSonus pulled a really sh*tty marketing scam imo. when they started up they used Jensen transformers in their first run of dual servo pre amps (similar to the John Hardy M1 /990 based pres). they received good reviews and quickly gained a good reputation with them. then the bean counters switched out the Jensens for cheapo transformers and that made them sound like doggie doo. meanwhile PreSonus continued to exploit a reputation gained with a superior product they no longer made.

the 8 channel mic pre and summing mixer PreSonus sent me to review for the now defunct RO magazine, (an M80) was designed to run at a 0dB level instead of the standard professional +4. coupled with only 60dB gain, they were almost useless in a professional balanced +4 studio unless you added an extra gain stage after them. i mentioned this to the head honcho at PreSonus and he got all insulted suggesting, "We think we got it right". then they sic'ed Sweetwater on me and a whole world of grief was bestowed upon me. needless to say, what appeared to be a promising carrier as a reviewer was cut short by this incident. there is a related tale of woe regarding a big run around i got from Mitch Gallagher when he asked me to review the Sebatron VMP for MIX magazine with a 1000 word limit that was eventually dropped according to him, because of a lack of details. 1000 words and he wanted details. that's barely enough to describe the unit. but that's a different story. but now surprise, surprise, ol' Mitch is schilling for Sweetwater. and that's all i have to say about that.

while they aren't Neves or API's, the pres in an Allen Heath are much better imo and almost any stand alone converter will meet or beat those in any PreSonus product.

Kurt Foster, post: 451124, member: 7836 wrote: not much that special about it in my view. if you can live with mediocre converters and mic pres, it's ok. it has lots of features you likely won't use. bells and whistles and pretty lights. sfm tech, all those touch pad switches will fail and good luck replacing them. will probably last 4 or 5 years before problems begin to show. planned obsolescence. great big boy toys, lousy tools for long term professional use. when i reviewed an M80 from PreSonus for RO many years ago, i found them to be not even as good than those in a first generation Mackie 24/4 VLZ.

PreSonus pulled a really sh*tty marketing scam imo. when they started up they used Jensen transformers in their first run of dual servo pre amps (similar to the John Hardy M1 /990 based pres). they received good reviews and quickly gained a good reputation with them. then the bean counters switched out the Jensens for cheapo transformers and that made them sound like doggie doo. meanwhile PreSonus continued to exploit a reputation gained with a superior product.

the 8 channel mic pre and summing mixer PreSonus sent me to review for the now defunct RO magazine, (an M80) was designed to run at a 0dB level instead of the standard professional +4. coupled with only 60dB gain, they were almost useless in a professional balanced +4 studio unless you added an extra gain stage after them. i mentioned this to the head honcho at PreSonus and he got all insulted suggesting, "We think we got it right". then they siced Sweetwater on me and a whole world of grief was bestowed upon me. needless my promising carrier as a reviewer was cut short by this incident. there is a related tale of woe regarding a big run around i got from Mitch Gallagher when he asked me to review the Sebatron VMP for MIX magazine but that's a different story. but now surprise, surprise, ol' Mitch is schilling for Sweetwater. and that's all i have to say about that.

while they aren't Neves or API's, the pres in an Allen Heath are much better imo and almost any stand alone converter will meet or beat those in any PreSonus product.

I had no idea about this, Kurt. Interesting bit of history. I've always admired your principals and convictions, true to the art and honesty about products..

I've owned three, 24-4-2 and really liked them. The pre's and ADC aren't great but the overall product is very good for the price. I think they are one of the best bang for your buck , for anyone wanting an affordable, solid performing multi-track system. Capture, the simple tracking software that comes with these consoles is just excellent. I highly recommend them.

yep I love the layout and functionality of it the most, I think it is perfect in that regard. as far as converters and pre-amps go I don't know, wonder if they could be modded or bypassed xD Turn it into an ultimate hybrid beast of a mixer! :D

audiokid, post: 451126, member: 1 wrote: I've owned three, 24-4-2 and really liked them. The pre's and ADC aren't great but the overall product is very good for the price. I think they are one of the best bang for your buck , for anyone wanting an affordable, solid performing multi-track system. Capture, the simple tracking software that comes with these consoles is just excellent. I highly recommend them.

imo, there fine for project recording and demos but not a serious professional multi track mixer.
knowing your preference for good conversion and transparent hi volt rail summing, i am confused by your remark. :confused:

soggy mittens, post: 451131, member: 50611 wrote: as far as converters and pre-amps go I don't know, wonder if they could be modded or bypassed xD Turn it into an ultimate hybrid beast of a mixer! :D

i don't think that could be done cost effectively. these mixers are manufactured in Chi-NA and unlike gear made by UA, API, Neve or other boutique manufacturers that utilize through the hole mounting, they are SFM (surface mount technology) where the components are robot stuffed. you cannot repair or mod these board without specially designed jigs. so i'm thinking what you would need to do is to have custom boards made up to replace the converters (30 AtoD and 24 DtoA?) and the 24 pre amp circuits and i think that would be pretty expensive. it may be possible but it would probably be more expensive to do than to just buy something better in the first place. you would have to really like the PreSonus features and lay out to do that.

Kurt Foster, post: 451132, member: 7836 wrote: imo, there fine for project recording and demos but not a serious professional multi track mixer.
knowing your preference for good conversion and transparent hi volt rail summing, i am confused by your remark. :confused:

I never said pro recording, I said affordable. They are excellent for that. :)

audiokid, post: 451142, member: 1 wrote: I never said pro recording, I said affordable. They are excellent for that. :)

ok. now i understand.

They are the closest system to any "mid level analog system" Ive used 20 years ago. In fact, I think the Studiolive platform is ideal for you, Kurt!
You would love the simplicity, how it is so intuitive and super affordable too. These are perfect for guys like us that know how rediculoius it is to spend big bucks to record demos. They are idea for bands that don't need all the editing and distractions that kill us during straight ahead tracking.

Capture software is like a tape machine, and the Studiolive consoles are better than most mid quality consoles of yesteryear.

The pres are thin but not unusable by any means. The ADC are fine if you don't track hot and that's pretty much all you need to know. They are project sound quality. The weaker bottom and top end is easy to figure out at mix time. You simply don't try and make it do what isn't there. Imho.

I would put one of those is a home studio with no problem and start recording bands. Under $2000 you have a 16/ 24/32 track system and the software to get demos done that should sound better to 90% of the crud people are using.

Capture doesnt need a super daw to track to either.
It's a good system and especially good for those who know what they are doing. That would be you!

well i related the tale already so suffice it to say i wouldn't pee on any PreSonus product if it was on fire, even if it was the best thing since tempura fried shrimp. lol.

seriously though, i really don't think i would be happy with something like that, not to say it wouldn't be great for others but i have been exposed to the best gear for so long i've been spoiled.

btw did you know the 2 guys who created Capture were from Cubase / Nuendo?

Kurt Foster, post: 451145, member: 7836 wrote: well i related the tale already so suffice it to say i wouldn't pee on any PreSonus product if it was on fire, even if it was the best thing since tempura fried shrimp. lol.

seriously though, i really don't think i would be happy with something like that, not to say it wouldn't be great for others but i have been exposed to the best gear for so long i've been spoiled.

btw did you know the 2 guys who created Capture were from Cubase / Nuendo?

I understand.

No, I had no idea who designed Capture. I've read interesting articles on the founders of Presonus and if my memory serves me accurate, they were smart guys that were musicians. Super positive.

Presonus is changing though. Presonus was a 14 year supporter of RO and a few years ago the people I knew are gone. The new people could care less about us here. (n)

They have a new feel which is not the same. I'm guessing they are going to be trimming down and going through big structure changes as USA companies start coming back to NA. (y)

Their PA gear is built poor but sounds pretty good. Crap wood. Nothing like the old cabinets we used years ago, that's for sure.

Just thinking....

they don't make wood like they used to .......... :ROFLMAO:

The 24-4-2 is way better than it should be. On paper and opening the hood you can only hope for the best...BUT...I have three live sound friends who do 100+ shows a year with their rigs and ALL of them use this mixer in their smaller format live shows. Heat, rain, gloom, DOOM METAL, doesn't seem to affect their ability to start every day.

My live mixer of choice these days is the QSC Touch-mix 16. About the size of a lap-top. I would have zero problems integrating this into a project studio.

A lot of the live guys around here are using the Beringer Digital X32 and all of them love theirs. Maybe some of the Midas purchase is rubbing off on Uli........

Digital mixers are here and now. ALL the major touring companies use them. SSL's, DigiDesign's, Midas, Soundcrafts, Yamahas , Digico's.........etc

Davedog, post: 451158, member: 4495 wrote:
A lot of the live guys around here are using the Beringer Digital X32 and all of them love theirs. Maybe some of the Midas purchase is rubbing off on Uli........

I don't like the X32 and the midas version (of the same mixer) layouts and setup is not that intuitive.
I like the Yam LS9 better. And if you are lasy or don't know much the Yam TF series are ok..
Just my personnal taste after last summer, when I had to learn 4 different digital mixers in a few weeks for different gigs...

Ive been using studio live 16.0.2 for o while now and at first I could hear clipping on a channel with the green led only 2/3rds lit up .
At first I was bamboozled , but now I have them running about 1/2 max .
I will try them as low as i can now and see if its a better outcome , thanks (y)

Well, maybe my ears are slipping, but I've heard projects recorded on the SL consoles that have sounded fantastic to me.
No "character" to speak of, but great, clean preamps. I don't know anything about the various features built into the Presonus consoles, I've never used one before personally, but I've heard the results of using them. And the recordings I have heard that have used it as a centerpiece I-O /recording desk have sounded great to me. Not great "for the money" ...but great period.
Or, I'm losing my ability to discern what sounds "great". It's not like I've never cooked on expensive desks before and have nothing to compare it to.
I dunno. Different perceptions I guess.

Don't you start second guessing yourself Donny :confused:....lol
I don't have the experience of using desks to tape ,so I value your say so (y)

BTW , I ve put all my gains to zero on my SL at gigs and use the comp make up gain instead .
Does it sound better ? . I think it does , The reverbs sound better me thinks .
While doing a quick sound check at the start of gig I tweak the rev masters and seem to be hitting a sweet spot
with ease , whereas before I would get closer but not get a sweet spot .

Id like to believe that its better , but I have found myself tweaking the wrong knob in the past
and believing it is sounding better ...lol . I do have belief (y)

Like all cheaper gear, gain staging is more critical to me because cheap gear goes from okay to crap at any given degree of a dial. Just because a knob says 50% (5, 50) doesn't mean it is actually that value. I trust my ears and accept bad gear noise in order to avoid the harsh and thin sound.
To my experience, SL console sound better when the faders are close to unison and I pay close attention to the gain structure including that little output dial on the back. Good power amps are essential.

The StudioLive AI series fan sucks which was a deal breaker for CR tracking. Too bad they had to include a fan in those consoles.