Yeah I like the it's a keeper mentality with a lot of mastering gear. Some of those guys hAve been using the same speakers forever.

The dangersous st has got nothing but excellent reviews across the board. And after a few more hours, lol I did notice 1 Cranseong , and one ST in 'real' mastering rooms. Even on GS it's well regarded. I tend to buy nice things and keep them. My poratstudio is used but still in great shape, 414 pristine, I've used it live at bars lol, so I'm not shy with gear, it's there to use.

So I'm hoping the monitor controller stand the test of time. I'm wondering if having the DA tied to the monitor controller is good ? Or bad?

Saw this thing it has good reviews, and is German designed... http://vintageking.com/spl-mtc-2381-monitor-talkback-controller?gclid=Cj0KEQjw6cCuBRCh4KrGoJ6LoboBEiQAwzYsdJyNezT4WsOLewH643LG8DGZK7kM7dJIs7FrQvA3vWMaAtun8P8HAQ&kwid=productads-plaid%5E108070423937-sku%5E1485-adType%5EPLA-device%5Et-adid%5E56044683377

And while I do agree with you Chris that they are certainly exposing some faults, I will say those guys did a hell of a job on some of those records man!!!! Howie in particular mastered some of my favorite records from my youth. 120v rails in that $10k+ monitor matrix lol. That's what I mean when I say I accept saving "boutique' for when I grow into it.

Do you use the DA option on the ST? Also are those analog knobs stepped, or detented?

DonnyThompson, post: 431627, member: 46114 wrote: If this is indeed effecting their sound in a negative way, then certainly, it needs to be pointed out and discussed.

Its not effecting their sound, its revealing their clocking is goofy if they are claiming the 10M is helping their sound. When I used it (for a year btw) it was a useless piece of space. Which I would stand in a group of the best engineers of the world and prove why. But, I am not here to be their brothers keeper . What we share here is about how far I go with what I think (which is just another mans opinion anyway).
How we all get paid, its up to us. And, who really cares what someone uses if it sounds good, right. But, if we are asking , are their other ways to do the same thing - get there cheaper or more proficiently, that's why we are talking, right?
.
Good or crap music sells. And if you have nothing to compare to, their is no contest. Their are many ways to cook a steak.
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

But from where I sit, these guys are dated. That's the jest of it. But, I will say that if you are in a really bloated studio, they are more of a clocking amplifier to help all the digital gear stay in sync. Thats about it. Internal clocking is the way to go and there is no need to build a system that needs this junk anymore. These guys are living in the round trip. Which is full of issues I run from. I think Antelope is doing great things, but I also think they have too many products for their own good. And, I also think they are doing a hell of a job at marketing.

DonnyThompson, post: 431627, member: 46114 wrote: I think it becomes even more important though, when we start talking about the audio gear that isn't at all that cheap; some of which, as we know, can be in the multi-thousands of dollars range.

I share this stuff here all the time but I have to admit, I delete some posts that are whistle blowers because I don't need the wrath, back lashing. The 10M is a hard one to not voice my opinion on though.

DonnyThompson, post: 431627, member: 46114 wrote: It's good to keep manufacturers on their toes, and to not let them get away with pushing a "new and improved whatever" device, and then to put a high price tag on it just because they happen to have a world-class name on the faceplate.

They use people to push crap. I never say a thing about gear unless I actually use it for a lot longer than a week end. This business is very subjective. The clock works great but its a waste of money for most people today. The problem is, the guys claiming this don't know always know why stuff works. Also, if you look at a lot of these glowing reviews on this clock, look around and see the kind of studios and gear they are using. Its pretty revealing. Also, a lot of people buy into this because they are sheep, doing the support of purchase or, using their eyes to listen.

DonnyThompson, post: 431627, member: 46114 wrote: As far as gear and workflows go, if an M.E.'s final product sounds great, I don't really care if they are using SOTA gear, or a hamster wheel-driven power supply on their conversion system... LOL... For me, the proof is in the sound of the final product.

Indeed, but ... that doesn't mean we need to do what others do to get the same or better results. If you actually compared gear with and without all this bloat, as I have been doing for years, its so obvious we don't need shit these guys are using. You also have to remember that the top tear guys are getting tracks that are already pro tracked and golden. There is a big difference.

DonnyThompson, post: 431627, member: 46114 wrote: If they are able to maintain, enhance or add sonic excellence, then whatever gear they happen to use in their workflow shouldn't matter... it doesn't matter to me, anyway.

Again, I don't believe half of what I see pros doing anymore. Its a racket.

kmetal, post: 431628, member: 37533 wrote: I'm wondering if having the DA tied to the monitor controller is good ? Or bad?

For a round trip hybrid workflow or basic single DAW system, it looks to be excellent!

Its a waste of money in my workflow. I am better off using a really nice mobile mastering grade ADDA. It serves 3 purposes. Mobile tracking, capture and/or mastering and monitoring.

kmetal, post: 431629, member: 37533 wrote: Do you use the DA option on the ST? Also are those analog knobs stepped, or detented?

relayed stepped. Perfect at all volumes.

No. The ST as is, is perfect.
It has the optional A.S.S. and the DA addon , I bought it and sold it. In my workflow, the above I mention is a superior way for me.

edited above.

After 39 years in pro audio, 17 years running RO and reading forums all in the name to analyze myself, search for whats right for me, I have come to the conclusion, I need to be aware of my workflow before I take or give advise of others. Whats good for one guy, it absolute nonsense for the next. So, I try and point this out all the time.

As an example, when we read threads and opinions, rarely do people tell what OS they use, if they are mixers, recordist, only track acoustic music, use electronics, hybrid round trip, use Apple or PC , use a great monitoring system, do this for a living or just a hobby and so on. Even the kind of music we like influences our decisions. Yet we read forums and trust a paragraph or two and then repeat the same. Do Pro Toolers share the same needs as someone on Sonar. Not to my ears and so it goes. I think Avid has turned us all into plug-in junkies.

Once ITB, the one thing we all have in common is we need great acoustics and a monitor systems that fits our workflow and personal ears. After that, I'm pretty convinced there is a lot of distraction confusing the hell out of us.

When your talking the old digi interfaces which were very common, an upgraded clock and conversion were necessary, either by modification to the unit itself, of thru external needs.

kmetal, post: 431632, member: 37533 wrote: When your talking the old digi interfaces which were very common, an upgraded clock and conversion were necessary, either by modification to the unit itself, of thru external needs.

Yup, but this is still lingering since 2006. 2006 is the year it all changed. Bob Katz, Dan Lavry, RME designers, Prism and on and on all get it. But, how is it the BLA is still upgrading. How is this is still on the Radar? No disrepect but even Davedog just mentioned BLA. I can't believe people are using a system that they need to upgrade patches. lol.
. Are they kidding?
The last thing I need is an external clock or some BLA upgrade. Who needs this ?
So, thats what I mean, we need to understand that when you use a platform, you also may need to patch it to keep up to the cutting edge.

I can picture a situation like bozwell describes where the suits cut costs on an otherwise good design. BLA pretty much does what any other good tech would do and maybe a couple tricks.

im not necessarily a fan of out of the box upgrades but I can see where BLA can make significant improvements vs something like a 10m from a cost benefit standpoint.

When you use a DAW for any purpose...ie:tracking,mixing,mastering,etc...you are using conversion with some sort of clock. Its not a magical formula, you need to have your wordlength be as tight and precise as possible.

Lack of jitter, smearing and whatever other terms you want to throw at the clarity and fullness of the signals you work with is the goal.

Be able to hear this is paramount...no question.

Being able to control this throughout the process is paramount.

Some improvements in the nature of gear can't be described only experienced.

As for a company like BLA....talking to them is the best way to understand just what "improvements" they are capable of making to a hyped product. But then ALL manufacturers are going to say that they make the best product or they would never sell a single unit....There is always going to be a geekhead somewhere with a better idea and the knowledge to implement it to anything. Its important to remember that all manufacturers have cut a corner somewhere in order to make a market for their products. There is nothing wrong with being able to improve on a known quantity with some a little better in quality....ie: filling in the corners that were cut.

The nature of clocking and conversion is physics and not magic. There's a reason things work as they do. My suggestions have been about things that DO work and without regard to anyone elses experiences. Since I wasn't there for that.

Ya agree,

Why are people buying converters that don't work without a super clock added then? How is it that my simple DAW sounds exactly the same with a $6000 10M in as it does without? And the same goes for people like Bob Katz, Dan Lavry etc... The list is very long.
Yet people who "buy" one, claim huge improvements. So, what is the real problem here?Thats really what I'd like to isolate here.

This whole area of converters is weird science to me. Its as weird as buying Logic, MacMini and Orion 32 and needing a 10M to sync it. How much is that investment? I'm guessing at least$10,000. Is there something wrong with MacMini's?
Why not drop the $6000 the 10M cost and buy a better DAW, and computer that actually ran properly. I mean, I use the exact same converter in a test that guys like Howie are claiming hug improvements.

I don't experience any of the issues I read about but I like discussing these problems so I'm more here for the sake of conversion.

Chris , I think if you look at the setup as a whole, howies for instance. You see the notorious 192, and about a dozen or so different digital processors. Now add to that $15 k monitors, in a full budget build.

So a few things come to mind, just for conversation, because I don't belive you have any reason to lie, and your the only one who used the clock, it's interesting to examine why or why it didn't work for you.

First did you have the clock along with your avid system?

Is it possible that because of the shear amount of digital gear, and converters, that howies system may be more susecptable to jitter and drift?

Is it possible that, perhaps his system/monitors/rooom has allows him to hear things in more detail that a setup like yours or my studios? (No personal attacks buddy, just technical observations) and therefore an extremely expensive box maybe did make an incremental improvement.

- I'm sure antelope made it very easy for howie to acquire this gear, and probably let him have it for next to nothing just for his namesake...

So maybe the improvement, if any, just came at a better price, and made sense??

I got the feeling howie noticed the difference from the eclipse 384, the imaging ect. I honestly don't necessarily believe anything much he says I this one reguarding antelope, simp,y became antelope sponsored the video....

Also, you don't see a ton of these out there, which leads me to belive there are other solutions.

When it comes to mastering, sterling sound is Imo the defecto. George Marino (rip) and Ted Jensens name are usually on the albums in my collection that 'sound better' than average (already awesome sounding) commercial albums. I know this from years of saying hmm. This album sounds good,,and checking the credits.

Sterling makes all their own gear in house, or most of it.

This tells me, that not only are 'boutique' sweetwater items not only overpriced they are not always necessary, or the only way. The caveat being you have a tech who is at that level.

Not to keep sweating zeltec, but Danny worked on the missle defense alert system, for the U.S. Army in the 70s, like he was the guy they sent to install and design the system... A walk on, self taught guy. He applied to be a gunner, and they gave him an IQ test, and said, no. No, your gonna work on this.

I'm gonna call BLA, and as I get things narrowed down, I will call Danny (who's a nice guy, and hopefully remembers me from last year) and try to pick his brain. I saw just about every peice you see in VK or mercinary (rip), top dollar, studer, cranesong, Chandler, sta levels, ect ect. Interestingly not much andtelope.

I think in general, in the case of the 10m it's two fold. First is I spent money, therefore it must be better. And second, is people having piecemeal rigs, not designed to work as a whole.

I'm not a believer in "all digital is equal" and I think when you start throwing random cheap components or corner cuts, things can go haywire.

Am I budgeting for a 10m, nope. But I'm not using an elaborate digital chain, or doing complex processing reguarding subtleties of depth of field, and imaging, thru a ton of outboard, like a ME.

I would be curious if for instance in the case of the 192, if BLA mods, have the same effect of the 10m at a much more affordable rate. Which may explain why BLA is well regarded by guys at all levels, any why you don't see 10ms in every commercial studio.

Just early morning thoughts, getting the gears going for the day.

My .02 if I can, I *think* the point Chris is trying to make is, yes, convoluted systems probably do benefit from something to make it all play nice. If you start in the right place though, say, the RME card as master then out and in via the Orion32 (example) and monitor on the Dangerous ST, you have a clean well maintained system. I am sure he'll step in and step on me if I am wrong :). Whether you go PC or Mac, I really don't think you could go wrong if you K.I.S.S the solution.

Tony

Oh, and while you, (like I did too), are looking to spend all that money, check this out :) http://therecordingrevolution.com/2015/04/30/the-key-ingredient-to-killer-recordings-the-300-studio-wrap-up/ This guy and many others are doing very well thank you. And what does it all mean really? :).

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: You see the notorious 192, and about a dozen or so different digital processors.

The 192 is very questionable. Which is what I'm partially getting at.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: So a few things come to mind, just for conversation, because I don't belive you have any reason to lie, and your the only one who used the clock, it's interesting to examine why or why it didn't work for you.

No worries.
This isn't just my observation, Bob Katz, Lavry, and many more agree that external clocks aren't necessary and in fact can actually be a detriment.
There were some tests where I actually thought my Prism converters sounded better without the 10M. Which I later read this is what Bob Katz has heard as well.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: First did you have the clock along with your avid system?

No, I would never buy an Avid system because they appear to have clocking issues. If a 10M is improving they clocking, something is obviously wrong.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: Is it possible that because of the shear amount of digital gear, and converters, that howies system may be more susecptable to jitter and drift?

This is exactly my point. Too much crap, bloat, dated...

This is the funny part.
Think about this. If he is noticing improvement when an external clock is added, he is admiting his system is problematic, drifting out of sync, full of jitter.
Thus, :barefoot: people are expecting sonic excellence but he is admitting in a public video the 10M has made HUGE! improvement in his sound. What that tells others who read between the lines here... not only was his system whacked before... even with the 10M improving his sound, I would suspect his system is still having sonic problems. He hasn't fixed it. He has patched it. This is an absolute red flag.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: Is it possible that, perhaps his system/monitors/rooom has allows him to hear things in more detail that a setup like yours or my studios? (No personal attacks buddy, just technical observations) and therefore an extremely expensive box maybe did make an incremental improvement.

No at all. That would be like saying, Bob, are your monitors poor too. lol.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: - I'm sure antelope made it very easy for howie to acquire this gear, and probably let him have it for next to nothing just for his namesake...

Indeed. but even so, do theses guys not know why the clock is improving and how that appears. I wouldn't be admitting this publicly, that is for certain. So my point early on here is, don't look to old school for all our advice. I definitely stopped doing that when it comes to "modern" lol. Some of these guys hardly understand midi and how it serves more use than playing notes.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: I got the feeling howie noticed the difference from the eclipse 384, the imaging ect. I honestly don't necessarily believe anything much he says I this one reguarding antelope, simp,y became antelope sponsored the video....

My feelings as well but, they are selling this same stamp for the Orion32/10M combo. Which I tried it with that and 3 others high end converters and not one of them showed any improvement. Which, was exactly what I expected BTW. I got the 10M here to prove something for myself.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: Also, you don't see a ton of these out there, which leads me to belive there are other solutions.

Sadly, these videos aren't telling what I am sharing here. That these super clocks aren't for everyone. They are more useful in Post and rat nest digital bloat. They are an absolute waste of money for the average gu. BUT, this also makes me question the Avid 192 converters. Because I didn't test them with that. Which is why I was wondering, asking anyone for that matter... why invest in converters that require a $6000 clock lol.
You can get and entire DAW system for that, that will clock better lol.

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: I would be curious if for instance in the case of the 192, if BLA mods, have the same effect of the 10m at a much more affordable rate. Which may explain why BLA is well regarded by guys at all levels, any why you don't see 10ms in every commercial studio.

My question as well. I'm thinking his workflow and bloat is really the suspect. Avid ADDA can't be this bad?

kmetal, post: 431654, member: 37533 wrote: Just early morning thoughts, getting the gears going for the day.

cool.

Makzimia, post: 431656, member: 48344 wrote: My .02 if I can, I *think* the point Chris is trying to make is, yes, convoluted systems probably do benefit from something to make it all play nice. If you start in the right place though, say, the RME card as master then out and in via the Orion32 (example) and monitor on the Dangerous ST, you have a clean well maintained system. I am sure he'll step in and step on me if I am wrong :). Whether you go PC or Mac, I really don't think you could go wrong if you K.I.S.S the solution.

Tony

Spot on. (y)

audiokid, post: 431660, member: 1 wrote: This is exactly my point. Too much crap, bloat, dated...

This is the funny part.
Think about this. If he is noticing improvement when an external clock is added, he is admiting his system is problematic, drifting out of sync, full of jitter.
Thus, :barefoot: people are expecting sonic excellence but he is admitting in a public video the 10M has made HUGE! improvement in his sound. What that tells others who read between the lines here... not only was his system whacked before... even with the 10M improving his sound, I would suspect his system is still having sonic problems. He hasn't fixed it. He has patched it. This is an absolute red flag.

Heres the irony .

Howie's work was excellent long before he got the 10M. Now that he has it, he claims his audio is improved. (y)
It goes to show us, unless we have something to compare (A/B) , who can tell? Does it matter?

I think the 10M best use was to tell him that he has a problem. My conclusion after using it. Others looking at this clock should try it and if it helps, then you know you have a problem with your clocking. You can either buy one to patch it or find out why your clocking is problimatic and fix it.

Somewhere in ANY DAW system there is a clocking device. Any input that needs conversion will have to be wordclocked at some point in the process. The tighter the wordlength the better the fidelity. Simple math and physics.

At some point in any studio with a lot of gear, there will come that time when drift and sync of many different things will become inevitable. A lot of these rooms depend on this "bloat" of gear to do the job that people pay big dollars for. Getting rid of things that have created the 'sound' a room is known for is not an option. This is a perfect example of "individual workflow"....not for everyone but certainly for those who use the room for their purposes.

I find it a losing proposition to critique someone's direction without being there or being aware of all the intricacies of someone elses needs and business model.

I find it refreshing to hear of something different and working for someone without the rancor and prejudices based on (perhaps) a past experience that wasn't up to par. Open mindedness is the true winner in this business. Everybody is right as well as everybody is wrong.....simply...there is no right and wrong.

Now to be specific. Avid ADDA THESE DAYS, is on par with all of them. Not the same machinery as a 192/96 or ANYTHING prior. At one time EVERY major room that was ProTools based had one or three of these converters or they were using the Apogee's and clocking to a Big Ben. MANY MANY MANY records made this way. Not all were terrible. In fact, there were only a couple of manufacturers concerned with conversion or clocking for many years after digital and DAWS became the norm.

I see all of this as a learning curve. And hopefully somewhere in this curve has come the realization that fidelity could be had along with the editing and ease of use the DAW provides. When Digi became the 'industry standard' it was because there was very little competition and even those other programs available had half or less of the features built into the ProTools package. Most still don't. Some of the things I'm discovering about this program came from intrepid exploration by those that understand these things. Things that even the manufacturer doesn't really dwell on as a feature in a sales ad. NOT work arounds but actual functions to be used and incorporated into a workflow.

Understand that I am NOT shilling ProTools in any way. Its a program that requires a complete emersion into its culture and some of the business practices the company uses are downright insulting to their most prolific customers. You don't have to like it or use it or recommend it, but knowing about it is a better path to understanding it than supposition.

I love 'discussing' things and learning about new directions and have learned so much here at RO all these years I have been here. But I see no reason to criticize other peoples efforts or make comparisons when no two peoples needs and wants are the same. To call out peoples setups and choices without personal knowledge of their needs is going past the purpose of these pages...IMHO. So I'm going on a vacation.

Good luck and adieu.

Davedog, post: 431665, member: 4495 wrote: Everybody is right as well as everybody is wrong.....simply...there is no right and wrong.

I wish this where true but in some cases, I do not agree. Creatively, yes... there are no rules but there are rules when it comes to connections. soldering, terminations, clocking and so on. Which I'm pretty sure this discussion right now falls into zero creative factor.

Davedog, post: 431665, member: 4495 wrote: At some point in any studio with a lot of gear, there will come that time when drift and sync of many different things will become inevitable.

Digital yes, analog no.

You should be able to run (as I have myself) racks and racks of analog hardware off of one internal interface using its own internal clock. If you can't, then thats why we are discussing this right now. My point here has nothing to do with creative. They are missleading people that this will make HUGE improvements to your sound. If this were true, why doesn't every studio and converter manufacturer on the planet agree and start selling these at a discount lol? I personally think they should be addressing why someone might need one of these. ;)

Davedog, post: 431665, member: 4495 wrote: I love 'discussing' things and learning about new directions and have learned so much here at RO all these years I have been here. But I see no reason to criticize other peoples efforts or make comparisons when no two peoples needs and wants are the same. To call out peoples setups and choices without personal knowledge of their needs is going past the purpose of these pages...IMHO. So I'm going on a vacation.

I would agree to a point but what do you tell innocent guys believing this will help them when it most likely won't. Are do you disagree, that you actually think we all would benefit having a 10M? Thats what this video is sort of saying.

I was in on a conversation last year where this video (and there are a few others) was enough to persuade newbies into thinking they need this. If Howie and friends say it helped them, then it should help joe blows system. When did we people stop advising those who come after us. Gear,

I think you are missing something very valuable here, Dave. Why it works for some and mostly likey not for the mass is questionable enough to publish. I don't blame Howie for know knowing how he could avoid all this nonsense, I blame the manufacturers way they are selling this to the guy next door. It may be helping Howie, but it sure the hell isn't going to help a guy mixing ITB or if its the only converter in a studio lol.

:)

Sorry to disagree. I'm not 'missing' anything. I was unaware we had morphed this thread into a witchhunt about someone needing a $6000 wordclock.....The last time I checked, no one who comes to this forum would ever think they need one. I can't help the marketing of some companies. I've made my disgust for the very company who's gear I believe in and use daily, very clear.But that doesn't mean the stuff is lacking or it doesn't work.

If your purpose is to slam down the hype for certain pieces of gear which you find unacceptable ,so be it. Start a discussion about ONLY that part of it.Unfortunately most people on here won't be able to relate simply because, as I said, a $6000 clock is out of the price range as well as the necessity. For the record, I don't think this is where this thread started.. It seemed to be suggestions for a new build out on the part of the original OP.

Jus sayin. Again, not what I want to do. I feel I can help some people and enjoy it. I try to not personally attack someone elses direction simply because I don't agree with it. I can certainly give advice on the plus and minus side of beginners wanting the best $200 mic for their bedroom studios, and I REALLY DO understand the whys and wherefores of clocking and OF COURSE I wouldn't be referring to a bunch of analog devices with a single or maybe two digital pieces present.....EXACTLY what I have....So I know the difference.

Again. See ya'll later. Enjoy. Whether you think its not being creative or not to be able to disseminate and choose between pieces to go into a working rig is puzzling to me. ALL parts of this process require creativity. But thats just me.

Davedog, post: 431670, member: 4495 wrote: Sorry to disagree. I'm not 'missing' anything. I was unaware we had morphed this thread into a witchhunt about someone needing a $6000 wordclock.....The last time I checked, no one who comes to this forum would ever think they need one. I can't help the marketing of some companies. I've made my disgust for the very company who's gear I believe in and use daily, very clear.But that doesn't mean the stuff is lacking or it doesn't work.

If your purpose is to slam down the hype for certain pieces of gear which you find unacceptable ,so be it. Start a discussion about ONLY that part of it.Unfortunately most people on here won't be able to relate simply because, as I said, a $6000 clock is out of the price range as well as the necessity. For the record, I don't think this is where this thread started.. It seemed to be suggestions for a new build out on the part of the original OP.

Jus sayin. Again, not what I want to do. I feel I can help some people and enjoy it. I try to not personally attack someone elses direction simply because I don't agree with it. I can certainly give advice on the plus and minus side of beginners wanting the best $200 mic for their bedroom studios, and I REALLY DO understand the whys and wherefores of clocking and OF COURSE I wouldn't be referring to a bunch of analog devices with a single or maybe two digital pieces present.....EXACTLY what I have....So I know the difference.

Again. See ya'll later. Enjoy. Whether you think its not being creative or not to be able to disseminate and choose between pieces to go into a working rig is puzzling to me. ALL parts of this process require creativity. But thats just me.

A witch hunt, are you kidding (n) Where did that come from?
We're taking shop , not party dress.

I read it like this: A manufacturer is publishing a formulated video about some very expensive gear that a lot of top tear people have tried , and [[url=http://[/URL]="https://www.soundon…"]don't agree is worth the tuition or time anymore[/]="https://www.soundon…"]don't agree is worth the tuition or time anymore[/]. There are reasons for this which we are discussing in depth, and you disagree lol. No need to apologize about disagreeing on anything. That's what makes this interesting. But for crying out loud... please leave the drama at home.

These external clocks serve a purpose which have a lot more to do with repairing or controlling issues that the mass watching don't suffer from at all. It's misleading how it is being marketed, I see right through this.
Howie (and there are other similar videos like this) agreed to do it. Yes, what a cool guy but come on, we're talking about gear and serious clocking issues that most people would never encounter. I would never have agreed to do that without researching a lot more on the pros and cons to external clocking. If I was getting this clock as a token to do the video, I would be mentioning why I need that thing so the kids following don't get mislead into thinking its a magic bullet, thus forking out $6000.
There is important information missing in these videos (that qualifies who requires theses) . Good on us disclosing this and continuing to discuss the pros and cons to those clocks right here and now.

Kyle posted a video on the related prospects . I happened to know a lot about this. Please Re read the thread better, Dave and let's leave the drama at home from now on. (n)

I'd invite friends to this table who have written articles about this but its been covered long ago. The brilliant minds refuse to get into all drama.

Personally I don't care who I upset when it comes down to special interest groups and marketing politics. I'm simply adding hands on experience because I actually care about Kyle. I had a 10M for a year, did my own independent tests using 4 of the top known converters at the same time these videos where spinning, and discovered a few points that Kyle and others considering a clock like this might be interested in reading. Its a waste of money for 99% of us.

The best part about RO is we aren't being paid to leave out sections to be politically correct. The section missing in all the 10M videos I've watched doesn't reveals clocking issues that can be improved in much better ways over buying the thing in the first place. But they wouldn't want us to know that. Good thing we have RO eh.

One day something is cool the next day it's dated. That's what pro audio is all about and why we talk about it regardless whether it pisses someone off that bought into it. Buyer beware on these particular tools.

:cool:

Going by what Chris has said, $6000 seems like an awful lot to spend for what really amounts to a diagnostics device that doesn't do anything other than to tell you if your clocking is wacked to begin with - which is what I'm gathering from his take on this conversation - that if you add this 10M clock to your current rig, and there is an audible sonic improvement, that the 10M is correcting that issue... and that you don't really need the 10M if your clock is stable to begin with.... (?)

I'm really nowhere near this caliber when it comes to my rig; so my knowledge is pretty limited on the importance ( or unimportance) of a dedicated clocking device; because I don't really implement any "real" hybrid into my mixing workflow - occasionally, I'll front-load a signal while tracking - with a piece of hardware, like a compressor, or a tube device, etc. - if I'm convinced that I like that particular sound - but, that's not really considered to be "hybrid" in the popular and accepted sense, where a rack of OB equipment is being used in conjunction with an ITB production base while mixing to achieve a certain sound.

Having had little experience with this type of workflow, I really don't have an idea of how critical the clocking is for a hybrid system, other than what's already built-in to the standard clock/conversion system for the base ITB platform.

I do know that there are a lot of other things that I'd much rather put $6k into other than a standalone, dedicated clocking device... 6 Large is a pretty big amount of money, guys... even for the pros. And, it's not as if I am naïve about the cost of pro gear.
I'm well aware, and have a solid understanding and acceptance of the fact, that quality does cost money, and that by and large, you'll generally get exactly what you pay for, in most cases and with rare exception.... but, maybe I am being naive about this 10m system - ?- Although I'd find it hard to believe that I am the only one here who considers that amount of money for a clocking device to be a bit extreme. (?)

It's not my intention to slam Antelope - who has had a long and respected reputation for building great gear... nor is it my intention to doubt the tactics or equipment choices of talented engineers as to what they use - I've always been of the opinion that as long as the final product sounds great, then I don't really care what anyone uses to get that sound.

But to be fair, as stated previously, I'm not swimming in these waters, either. As a "typical" home-studio owner ( which in the last few years has really become anything but "typical", as I've seen some home studios as well-equipped as some professional rooms), something like the 10m simply isn't on my radar screen. And accordingly, I can think of many, many other things that I'd rather invest that kind of money into when it comes to my recording rig. ;)

IMHO of course.

d.

DonnyThompson, post: 431691, member: 46114 wrote: Going by what Chris has said, $6000 seems like an awful lot to spend for what really amounts to a diagnostics device that doesn't do anything other than to tell you if your clocking is wacked to begin with - which is what I'm gathering from his take on this conversation - that if you add this 10M clock to your current rig, and there is an audible sonic improvement, that the 10M is correcting that issue... and that you don't really need the 10M if your clock is stable to begin with.... (?)

Precisely. Thanks Donny. (y)

The videos are also misleading because they are missing who these are best suited for today. Which (just a guess), may be 1% of the populous still using a rats nest of digital gear to clock to. In most cases we are all better off with our internal clock which is part of your basic converter/ interface.

I think clocking has been improved I the last 10 years making something like the 10m irrelevant for most if not all engineers.

I'm curious as streaming, private clouds, and multimedia audio grows, if there will be a need for standalone sync'ing devices.

Fwiw I wasn't considering or proposing the 10m, I just thought the video was cool. The eclipse is not a bad looking piece.

I've been mentally putting together some different style rigs based on everyone's helpful insights, and I'll post some up. There's plenty of time right now, consider my vehicle, and the borrowed one are out of commission. Lol

Reliability and sonic depth and quality are what I'm after. After using shaky, systems at the studio, and my own past unreliable 'consumer' based system.

The interesting part of it is sometimes the best sounding gear is also unreliable, and sometimes reliability and quality are there. That's what I'm after.

I've also been considering a set of used B&W 802 speakers, instead of the mothership. 2x2 interfacing is all I 'need' at the moment, and when I move my room out of my house, to an apartment/rental house (ugh), I will expand the IO as needed, starting with something like the Orion or rednet 16io unit.

Network based audio is still facinating me, so I don't want to necessarily go 'whole hog' in one direction, if that means neglecting another important area.

Honestly I think the passive monitor controller from SPL would,be a great, welcome upgrade over at Normandy, gonna talk to tony and see if we got some stuff to sell/trade.

Money- I genrate only about 5-15k per year on studio mixing/tracking, with other gigs lkke studio construction (which has been surprisingly steady since I started 7years ago), live work, and installations supplanting the rest, if there is any lol.

I feeling is that $15 of gear, will pay for itself twice thru studio work in the 5-6years I'm hoping to get out of the computer I buy/assemble.

These numbers aren't inspiring until you look at how my personal engineering % changes working from my own editing suite, vs using the studios for such menial tasks.

Ps , my boss knows, so I'm not like cutting him out. Our new philosophy for the studio is more of an engineering 'club' where many outside engineers cut basic tracks, as opposed to a few of us staffers trying to keep the place going with start to finish projects.

Ironically I think these price options for the client are going to help me retain people over the long term. As the $65/hr isn't always easy to justify vs $35 I would charge at my spot. For things mainly like editing, db microtweaks. This is why I have the luxury of quality over quantity.

I'm going to move into producing more, and even some basic services for clients, like copyright filing, ect, and hopefully multimedia mixing and streaming. Ala live shows, and podcasts.

New oppotunites are opening up as more and more people can record themselves, they need assistance with the steps following the actual recording.

I see my role to the artist as simply making their imaginations come to life. I always have. So watever services I can provide to fulfill a need, I'm at least interested in.

The master rooms also have mich more of the residential living room feel I am comfortable in. I like sunlight and windows to the outside.

Whe I'm done w my real studio in about another 15years, you probably won't know it's a studio, or soundproof from the naked eye. As 'smart houses' and technology based living progresses, specialty systems and construction will be paramount.

I want to cater to wealthy clients as well as the inspiratatoonal charity cases equally well. Working on this home theater project has allowed me to see what it's like to work with a more "watever it takes" style funding, that I'm not usually used to. Lol. I used to regret going to school for business and quitting a year before graduation, but I think that was actually a good bid, as those types of skills are helping me earn the real world OJT I feel is crucial to my development as a professional and an individual.

Lol people really get attach to their gear. And I like to hear what each person feels does good or bad, and under what circumstances.

audiokid, post: 431693, member: 1 wrote: Precisely. Thanks Donny. (y)

The videos are also misleading because they are missing who these are best suited for today. Which (just a guess), may be 1% of the populous still using a rats nest of digital gear to clock to. In most cases we are all better off with our internal clock which is part of your basic converter/ interface.

Do you mean better in performance, or cost vs perfomance.? Both?

both.

Before I got into hybrid mixing and mastering, I did a lot of research on what DAW's to use, what interfacing was most stable for large track count for both audio and midi integration before I bought the converters. Along with this information included digital cable, studio power supplies, and clocking options. Once I understood this, I then invested in converters.

Accordingly to most converter manufacturers and a group of Mastering Engineers I follow, an internal clock is closer to your bus, which in turn is the most stable. I agree 100%.

I stand firm on how important your interfacing is. Once you are beyond 8 lanes at a time, PCIe is without question, far superior.
PCIe interfacing gives me better clocking, lower latency and the ability to run dozens of channels, plug-ins on, all through a single Windows 7 PC i7 with zero need for added DSP hardware.
Do the math on what that will cost in comparison to what people are paying for DAW's requiring DSP cards and proprietary hardware.

I can also use midi on the same PCIe card with a buffer setting of 64 and not miss a beat. If that isn't enough, I can put a screaming bpm 2 bar loop set for example: 5 minutes looping and punch in either audio or midi over and over and not drop a bit. That is how awesome a PCIe madi or PCIe AES EBU 32 lane interface card is. on a single DAW running Windows 7.

My converters have to pass this test before I start a project. I could never do this with a USB interface and 10M. Which they are claiming is the ultimate combo lol. The stability lives in the interface and that is most stable on its own bus closest to the motherboard.

I would bet money, anyone claiming a 10M makes HUGE improvements could never get those specs until they fix their system to my specs in the first place. You need your DAW tight before you ask the 10m to patch it. And if the 10m shows improvement, then your DAW isn't tight. It's as simple as that to me.
Add a second DAW to this and you will never look back. Join a great monitoring system to this and you cannot be fooled.

At this point, I was then able to add racks and racks of analog gear, mixing consoles and never worry about being out of sync. My phase in dead locked and I hear everything like our DAW's are designed to do so.

This is what I am talking about and why I would never choose a system that dictates my interfacing choices. Interfacing is improving all the time and the last place that is happening, is in a box like the 10M.

Does this make more sense?
http://recording.org/threads/what-is-clock-jitter.45012/
I'd love to have an Eclipse but for the same price, you can get all three things (used) that work better.
example: PCIe interface, Orion 32 or comparable 32 channel (AES or Madi) ADDA and a 2 channel (USB) ADDA.

Ok ok, let's say I buy it and my sound gets better, will it be 6k better ? Nah !! don't think so...
If I had the money and thought having it would help me get more customers (just by having it in my gear list), maybe I'd consider it... But not before I would be equiped with 100 other more important things I'd consider first ;)

audiokid kmetal pcrecord ( et al)

FWIW, here's an excerpt from an article I found online:

"There have been a few major improvements to basic converter technology over the years. They have come largely when subjective listeners and objective designers have shared common goals and a common purpose.
At first, digital converters lacked sufficiently accurate clocking, which could introduce significant “jitter”: time-based anomalies which show up in the signal as high-frequency distortion.
Upgrading the clocks on digital converters became a huge point of focus for some time. There was even a moment when external clock upgrades could provide significant benefits in many systems.
But, that was then and this is now. Technology always advances, and today, external clocking is far more likely to increase distortion and decrease accuracy when compared to a converter’s internal clock. In fact, the best you can hope for in buying a master clock for your studio [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundons…"]is that it won’t degrade[/]="http://www.soundons…"]is that it won’t degrade[/] the accuracy of your converters as you use it to keep them all on the same page.

There are however, occasions when switching to an external clock can add time-based distortion and inaccuracies to a signal that some listeners may find pleasing. That’s a subjective choice, and anyone who prefers the sound of a less accurate external clock to a more accurate internal one is welcome to that preference."

Source: http://www.trustmeimascientist.com/2013/02/04/the-science-of-sample-rates-when-higher-is-better-and-when-it-isnt/

There are several aspects to clocking. An important one is how you distribute a clock around your studio between different bits of equipment that has to run in sync, but the aspect I believe we are mainly concerned with here is the clocking within a piece of gear. This encompasses the choice of technique used to generate or receive the clock and how that technique is implemented.

I'm speaking with my professional designer's hat on here.

Nearly all recent designs (of the last couple of years) of mid to top price equipment have taken on board the techniques aspect, and are capable of running a good, stable clock. What sorts out the really top gear is how that stability is affected by factors that can cause problems: electrical noise, temperature variations, component quality, power supply stability and decoupling, susceptibility to ageing and a host of others things that designers have to deal with. As I have related in other posts, sometimes the economics of series production mean that compromises made at the manufacturing stage can affect this aspect of performance. I have many times seen production designs that run perfectly happily and stably on their own, but don't sound as good in a studio when racked with other gear radiating their own noise fields and pushing even mild levels of interference into the mains.

Designers of the top-end gear test their pre-production equipment in deliberately noisy environments using contaminated mains, and are not satisfied with the performance until measurements comparable with a clean lab bench test are achieved. They also have the authority (respect?) to insist that the components that are designed into these pre-production boxes are the same as used in the production units. This costs money, both at the design/test phase and then for every unit going through the production line.

What it boils down to is that high-end modern gear has generally very good A-D and D-A conversion both with internal clocking and also when receiving an adequate external clock. With this type of design, when you feed in an external clock, it's not used directly as a clock but instead used to regulate the long-term phase of the internal clock, so the performance is largely independent of the quality of the external clock, as long as it's up to a reasonable standard. The result is that spending large sums on a high-stability external clock is no longer a necessity because equipment design has largely moved away from the need for it. Put another way, if using an expensive external clock improves the conversion quality of a piece of gear, then the internal clock design of that gear is not up to today's standards.

This is not related to clock accuracy, which is a separate factor that in some cases (particularly in broadcast and video) becomes the more important.

DonnyThompson, post: 431714, member: 46114 wrote: Source: http://www.trustmeimascientist.com/...rates-when-higher-is-better-and-when-it-isnt/

This was in 2013, I'm guessing many things have changed.

To my own limited experience, I have been working with 3 digital units to for a while (synced with world clock cables). At first it had the Focusrite Liquid saffire 56, the UA 4-710 and the Mitek AD96.
With the FLS56 what ever I setup I did, I heard some random digital glitches and they were worst when the 56 was the master clock. So I worked with the 4-710 or the AD96 as master. They are equally stable to my ears. But everytime I booted (at time of driver activation and audio initialisation) I would hear a digital glitch for less than a second and then be ok for the entire session. Then once in a while, the glitches would stay and be heard every 30 -60 secondes. I'd then shutdown everything and boot up again and 99% it was all good to record.
Many times I thought it was the ADAT wires because the same noises are heard when pulling them out and in again. But now I wonder if it was the 56 clocking or the drivers...
Anyway, since that I've replaced the FLS56 for a RME Fireface 800, I never hear those Glitches. My clock chain is Ad96 master, UA-710, FF800.

So I concluded that while the 56 is a relatively good unit for the price, Either my unit or possibly all the 56 are not good with clocking. They are ok alone but not as master and neither at being slaved to world clock. Could the problem be fixed by a 6k clock.. I hope so.. but then, that 6k could have greatly opened up my choice of better interfaces.. ;)

Well this monitor controller is the only practical 7.1 controller I've found so far, and I've been looking for a couple days. It got a good review on mix, stated as being transparent. There are not a lot of alternatives and surround monitor control usually is at the expense of a talkback system. At $1400 this seems decent. So many options and spl has some nice stuff. Nothing is seeming to fit all the things I'd like. This, with digital io and talkback would be perfect. The avocet 7.1 is $9k and not in consideration right now.

It's also possible to handle my surround monitoring via a built digital from something like a basic sound card and feed a home theater head unit. Many many options.

Mix said -http://www.mixonline.com/news/outboard-gear/coleman-audio-sr71-8-channel-level-control-review/369734

I don't have any experience with it but I've heard people do like it.

kmetal, post: 431765, member: 37533 wrote: There are not a lot of alternatives and surround monitor control usually is at the expense of a talkback system.

This wouldn't limit me. I used a channel input as talkback for years, all you need is a table mic with a switch and leave the channel open. I bought a cheap one from china at 30$ but there is many better ones. Like this :
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Takstar-MS-138-conference-microphone-wired-capacitor-goose-microphone-Table-Conference-sound-head-from-china-takstar/1347527594.html

Or use any mic you want and built a DIY switch box for it that you place where you want. ;)

Marco beat me to it...

I've often wondered what the big deal is about having a TB feature built-in to a device such as this; I mean, unless I'm missing something here, all you want to do is to communicate with the players, right? Using a simple low budget mic plugged into an input and then either left hot ( or controlled via a mute button, or footswitch or something), or a cheap wireless intercom system seems like a far cheaper route than looking for a model that offers TB as a feature - then again, thinking on the other side of that coin, using an integrated TB wouldn't take up an input channel, either...

Just thinking out loud...

http://www.gadgetshack.com/all-categories/wireless-intercom-systems/basic-3-channel-intercom-system-set.html#.VdmGvzZRGUk

DonnyThompson, post: 431777, member: 46114 wrote: Marco beat me to it...

I've often wondered what the big deal is about having a TB feature built-in to a device such as this; I mean, unless I'm missing something here, all you want to do is to communicate with the players, right? Using a simple low budget mic plugged into an input and then either left hot ( or controlled via a mute button, or footswitch or something), or a cheap wireless intercom system seems like a far cheaper route than looking for a model that offers TB as a feature - then again, thinking on the other side of that coin, using an integrated TB wouldn't take up an input channel, either...

Just thinking out loud...

http://www.gadgetshack.com/all-categories/wireless-intercom-systems/basic-3-channel-intercom-system-set.html#.VdmGvzZRGUk

If I'm limited to only 4 channels, this is my concern. But my Berringer headphone amp, which is as useful as it is terrible sounding, does have aux inputs, so I'm could wire a mic like you guys has links for, directly into that, provided the TB didn't need pre amplification.

This rig is starting to narrow down a bit.

This is the one I have and used for many years :
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/HA4700.aspx

I saw the exact same one at a radio station where my friend works ! ;)

Yup Marco, that's the one everyone uses lol. I got mine for like $25 years ago. I'm trying to suss out motherboards and these two look like gigabytes flagship.

There's a decent difference in price, and very similar feature sets. At least $100 difference should be bullied by the wireless card built in, which saves me a picie slot.

So it's the 2 extra fan slots, and 2 extra sata slots/ports that seems to be the very useful differences. besides audio upgrades which aren't really important to me. I don't want to give up anything for these pointless upgrades, but if it's no sacrifice to anything else and they Rebpart of the package, so be it.

If you have anything thoughts Marco let me know

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627%2050001314%20600567584&IsNodeId=1&Manufactory=1314&bop=And&CompareItemList=280%7C13%2D128%2D833%5E13%2D128%2D833%2C13%2D128%2D835%5E13%2D128%2D835%2C13%2D128%2D838%5E13%2D128%2D838&percm=13%2D128%2D833%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B13%2D128%2D835%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B13%2D128%2D834%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B13%2D128%2D838%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24

Well it's been weeks of thought, and I'm slowly narrowing some things down. There's still a lot of possibilities but I figured I put out some numbers and configurations. First some lists, and I'll attach screenshots of the math. I also gonna have to make a couple,diagrams on how it's all gonna connect, which right now, is down to less than 50' of Ethernet and a couple 6' thunderbolt wires. Sorry, if the list is a bit difficult, I pasted it from the word document, and the outline style format didn't translate. CPUs 1&2 are basically hardware duplicates. Duty specific Add ons for each may be nessesary, but the core parts are identical (at this point). This is in case I need absolute redundancy, as well as their lifespans, and the ability to swap parts if I need to in the heat of the moment. Missing is the monitor controller, which right now is the Coleman 7.1. I figured this could help start to suss out workflows and hardware, and keep the costs in mind.

A note on PT, it's the only 7.1 compatible multitrack software out right now, the hd|native card and pt lisence come bundled on EBay for $2500. This seems expensive until you consider PT is $900 for the no. HD version, and any sort of Pcie card is 1-3k from Dante to madi. So I break it into $1k for PTHD and $1500 for the Pcie card. I have a sampltude lisence wich I will upgrade to the latest version, as soon as a I have a CPU.

Mac- not out ruled, just exploring the options of a custom machine, and as long as I'm cross compatible, it looks like I get a significant (faster ram, latest Intel processor) performance boost over a used (couple years old) Mac quad tower for about the same price as a brand new one. And nobody has really said anything great about the coffee can Mac. Before this is done I'll probably do a side by side between both, but that's when I've narrowed things down significantly.

The attached photos are itemized price lists, on the basic categories. I'm putting together the paperwork for the buisness Plan, and all that administrative stuff simultaneously. I'm currently injured and awaiting a routine stomach surgery, so I've had quite a bit of time, maybe too much, to sit and think about this as I'm mostly couch bound for the next few months. Nothing life threatening (so far) just moved too many stacks of drywall and speaker cabs, and I gotta get stitched.

Doing a true buisness plan, with projected costs, and depreciation methods, and accounting is a lot. It takes the same eye for detail as the construction plans, and is every bit as comprehensive. Together they are far too much work for one dude lol. I'm glad that my facilities are built by me for my boss, so I can focus on the more detailed and highly tuned equipment and networking. My boss has the band style recording studios and capabilities, so there will be no sm57s in my equipment budget. Perhaps a pair of sm81s tho....

There a lot here, and well it's me pulling the trigger on being a pro, so all your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated. I gave myself till 35 (I'm 30) years of age to see how far the music ride will take me. At which point I will evaluate, and fill in with supplementary income, or move my career to something more in sales (ugh) or the sciences, teaching or doing research, likely on communications, or medically restoring hearing, or technology in general. My moderat carpentry/general contracting ability allows me to jump in on any crew as long as I'm healthy.

Lol I'm am obsessive thinker, so seeing it all out on screen, helps relieve the looping thoughts, of me trying to keep all this together!!!! I'm also only 2k over the initial $10k I guesstimated on day 1. @$12k and change so far.

A. CPU 1- Multitrack A/V Recording, Editing, Mixing
i. SOFTWARE
1. Pro Tools HD|Native 12

ii. AUDIO HARDWARE
1. BURL Mothership 4x8 I/0 (Dante Network)
2. Realtek ALC 1150 (Stock 7.1, optical SPDIF)
3. Avid HD|Native Pcie Card
4. UAD Quad Dsp Pcie Card

iii. CPU HARDWARE
1. Motherboard- Gigabyte x170 UD-5 ATX (rev 1)
2. Processor- Intel I7-6700k (4ghz)
3. RAM- G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 RAM
4. Power Supply- Corsair HX1000i
5. Case-
6. Hard Drives-

c. Pcie Cards
i. GIGABYTE Model GC-THUNDERBOLT 2 card with dual Thunderbolt™ 2 ports

B. CPU 2 – Mastering, Multitrack Backup, Acoustic Design & Testing, Networking
i. SOFTWARE
1. Samplitude Pro X
2. Room Eq Wizard

ii. AUDIO HARDWARE
1. BURL Mothership 4x8 I/0 (Dante Network)
2. Realtek ALC 1150 (Stock 7.1, optical SPDIF)

iii. CPU HARDWARE
1. Motherboard- Gigabyte x170 UD-5 ATX (rev 1)
2. Processor- Intel I7-6700k (4ghz)
3. RAM- G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 RAM
4. Power Supply- Corsair HX1000i
5. Case-
6. Hard Drives

c. Pcie Cards
i. GIGABYTE Model GC-THUNDERBOLT 2 card with dual Thunderbolt™ 2 ports

A. NAS Storage- Remote Realtime Storage and Stream of HD A/V
i. QNAP- TVS-871T

1. DRIVES

1. Win 10
2. OS X
3. Current Projects
4. A/V Drive
5. Samples
6. A/V Archive Drive
7. Server/Network/Document
8. Heritage Documents/Data

Attached files

Just tried to upload more photos, and once again iOS cannot access my photos. Which, is the initial problem that made me want a simple $300 wireless backup form the start. That seed grew...

pcrecord hey Marco, do you think I should be looking into a server computer instead of the NAS drive?? I'm relatively a newbie with computers on a hardware level, and completely green as far as networking. Lol im reading the wiki for servers now. Which means maybe I don't need one???

A server is a lot more hardware/software to deal with. It would be a good idea if you had services to share to many users and/or computers. Like data centralised software, databases, high security protected data with many levels of access, website hosting, cloud synchronisation or cloud backups etc...
If none of these has ring a bell, the NAS is the good choice for you.
A NAS can deliver the same data protection and acces as a server and if you set it up in Raid 5 you could loose a drive without loosing any data. (giving you time to replace it)
BTW Raid 5 needs 3 drive or more. Other raid configuration are available, you need to read the ups and downs of each to decide..

One thing that the NAS doesn't have is redundant Powersupply. If it fails you won't have easy acces to the data.
Of course there is a few other consideration we can discuss. Just let me know if those few ideas have made up your mind ;)

pcrecord

Basic website hosting, and cloud sync/backups interest me. Would a basic NAS alow me to host say my websites, and email server, and perhaps a dozen or so artist pages? I'd like to have the ability to give say 30 or so band members artists ect, the ability to sign into my system, and access any of their files, from mixes to tracks, to paperwork. If not forever, at least for the duration of the project and a time span afterwards.

I don't mind if the NAS is a 'entry level' into this realm, as just that is probably gonna take me a few months to understand And get going. I'm just wondering because this is a fairly extensive purchase, if I'm buying something that ill outgrow quickly, or find limiting, right away.

I will not be making any new purchases till about the 5 year mark of this new system, whe the CPUs and software will need upgrading. I'm not intending on upgrading software and adding new plugins much at all, unless completely necessary. I'm trying to avoid the game of if you want this, you upgrade those other two things. So while I will live with a bit of obsolescence, I think the reliability and dependability will pay off in spades.

In essences my goal is a small closed type audio system, that handles a 'local audiences' worth of video and podcast streams. Essentially, a small multimedia broadcast type deal. With the inclusion of my audio editing and mixing services if needed.

I think as a content host/programmer I can genrate monthly income and eventually advertising costs. Basically if you cross RO with the Avid Cloud, that's what is looking to do, on an entry level scale, with no compromise in audio video quality, or capability.

What are your thoughts on this?

Web hosting demands that it's never down. Usually the unit and your internet access needs to be redondant. Also, if you go for mail hosting, I don't think the NAS can do this (I should reseach this) but things for sure, your system needs a host that includ support for a thrusted certificat so other mail servers consider you as safe. And you also need a fixed IP from your provider or a dynamic DNS fowarder (so you can be found online)

To have your customers access data, an ftp could be setup either on a NAS or Server or online Hosting service.

Simply put, If all those activities are important to you, I would buy online hosting from a local dealer and have it all safe and redundant for a monthly fee.
The NAS would then serve you for internal data management that only you can acces.
You might want to discuss this with a computer store that you thrust.
Many businesses have their website, mail and online store hosted and if the amount of data makes the fees too high, you can resolve to google drives to exchange data with your customers. This would be the safest and simplest solution.

Going for a server as a lot of advantages too. Namely no storage limit for your files and shares, website etc. (just add harddrives if you need more)
Easy remote access when away, programmed backups (on physical media or online) (you'll see that online backups become expensive if you have alot of data).
Higher starting price but lower monthly fees. Oh can't forget virus/malware protection...
Also unless you have the knowledge, the patience to learn it or a very good person that make your setup very simple, you'll be bound to rely on IT techsupport.

On the other hand, hosted websites, ftp and mails are quite easy to manage. Even websites are easy to create with many tools available. What's harder to do setup is an online store.. I would certainly pay someone to set that up..

I'm definetly not want to convince you. If you have thrusted people that can make it happen to you either way, go for any of those solutions...