Interesting thread and it looks like everyone agrees on the NS-10s. Ok fine we have that settled but the question I never see answered is what will be its predecessor ?

Its great that there a lot of ns-10s in the world but what will replace them as they age and parts become difficult to find ?

Lee

I think one of two things could happen (at least it would be nice if it would). There will be someone who will begin manufacturing replacment parts. Remember there are lots of tweeters out there just no woofers, hopefully someone will find some n.o.s. woofers in a warehouse somewhere. Or someone will start making knock offs / reissues of them. Heck Yamaha might even reissue them in a few years. Until then I am going to be extra kind to mine. I suspect there really isn't a problem getting the paper for the woofers as some have claimed but rather a marketing scheme to get everyone to think they should start thinking about replacing their ageing NS 10's. Just think of how many home and small pro studios there are who haven't been able to replace their nearfields twice a day.
Conspiratorialy Yours........Fats

Well unfortunately I missed out on a pair of KRK 9000 that was $100 the entire week they were on Digibid, then jumped up to $405 + shipping in that last hour or so, so I missed the boat on that one. :)
-tkr

Tekker replies; "the NS10s are definitely still on the list, but just not as my only set of monitors..."
That makes sense and it underscores my point. Yes, get some other monitors. At some point you will want a larger set of mains plus a small set of monitors to check for boom / box
tee vee reference. Big speakers, auratones and NS 10's....that is the ticket. The reason you are hearing so much neg fdbk re; Yorkvilles, (and I'm probably going to get some flak for this) is the brand is just not as respected as others. It's like they are a more budget concience line of product. (I just don't know how to say this any nicer.) I will reiterate, look in the magazines at the pics of PRO rooms. How many Yorkvilles do you see? No matter what price point a product is, if it's good, the pros will use it. Don't wind up buying nearfields twice. 'Nuff said........Fats

Originally posted by joy4u:
NS-10 have never been used by pro to mix. They were used to monitor the voice-to-music balance.
It's impossible to make a good mix with a loudspeaker that has nothing good below 200 Hz.

...

I agree with the sentiment, but we have to disagree with the statement of fact. Many hit records have been mixed on NS-10s. Almost nobody thinks they sound good, but many people think they can get a good mix out of them.

The NS-10 paradigm is a sad one, and thankfully going the way of the dinosaur. The first great era of mixing was with large soffit mounted monitors, using as much driver/amp/room design horsepower as was available to deliver from about 60 Hz to about 15 k Hz, at as loud of a level as the engineer could take before THD drove them nuts.

The second era, using crap home speakers to get a mix that would work with little effort at the mastering/playback stage, required a large and long learning curve on the part of the engineer to adapt to translating what he heard in the studio to what the end user would hear. It could have been any number of small speakers from the NS-10 era; maybe it was the white cones...

As professionals, to make our work more efficient and of higher quality, we need to work with full range monitor systems. Full range obviously means 20 Hz - 20 k Hz. Monitor systems, whether large full range speakers or satellite/subwoofer systems (preferable in many cases because they can be easily scaled to Surround monitoring), have to be able to play every note that can be captured, and every note that can be delivered to the end user.

It's also just a lot more fun to track with speakers that have some ooomph. Clients like it $$$

I will reiterate, look in the magazines at the pics of PRO rooms. How many Yorkvilles do you see? No matter what price point a product is, if it's good, the pros will use it. Don't wind up buying nearfields twice. 'Nuff said........Fats

How many studios have you seen Samplitude in? So just because Samplitude isn't in every major studio (unlike Pro Tools), that is no a reason not to use it. Look at Magix for example, they have all sorts of other junk with Samplitude and Sequoia being their ONLY pro quality product. What if everyone judged Samplitude based on the few Magix products they've tried? I know Yorkville make a lot of other consumer junk (I've seen tons of it on ebay) but so far everyone that has actually 'used' the YSM-1's have said they are a hit.... Is there anyway you could get a hold of a pair and try them out? You may be surprised and if you get converted, then I won't even hesitate on getting them... :w:

-tkr

Tekker,
All I can say (and I don't want to beat a dead horse) is you comparing apples and oranges. Software comes and goes but speakers stick around for a long time (hopefully). Also there is nothing more important in a studio than the transducers. That is the mics and monitors. These are your windows to the "world of audio". Software affects the way you work but speakers affect the way you hear. I don't have access to hear the Yorkvilles and I would gladly listen to them for the sake of argument but no one carries them in my area. As far as my switching to Yorkvilles from my trusted and loyal NS 10's, I don't think so... why fix it if it ain't broke.........Best Fishes........ Fats

Tekker,
I just saw an interesting thead on the mastering fourm... top speakers for mastering and they refered to some mastering speakers having a forward sound... it's a diifferent thing but it struck me that NS 10 do the same thing...... Check it out....Fats

I don't have access to hear the Yorkvilles and I would gladly listen to them for the sake of argument but no one carries them in my area. As far as my switching to Yorkvilles from my trusted and loyal NS 10's, I don't think so... why fix it if it ain't broke.........Best Fishes........ Fats

I don't think you should switch if you have something that works for you, but I don't yet and I just wanted to get the :)

All I can say (and I don't want to beat a dead horse) is you comparing apples and oranges. Software comes and goes but speakers stick around for a long time (hopefully).

Well, I was just replying to the comment about Yorkville not being as respected and that's why all negative comments on the YSM-1 series, without anyone actually trying them. Cause besides Samplitude & Sequoia, all Magix has is mp3 encoders and other small consumer stuff so without trying it you could say that Samplitude wouldn't be any good because of their other programs. Even a bad company can make a fluke and come out with a great product (and vice versa). So I think that analagy still works in that you have to judge each "product" and not just the company over all. I just want an honest opinion of the actual product from people who have had experience with them and so far it's been nothing but excellent....

-tkr

OK,

A quick follow up…

I personally have mixed a number of gold and better albums over the last 20 years relying heavily on NS10’s. I have had a great many systems available to me. I chose the Ns-10’s for a practical reason … the end product! I currently mix a network music television program almost entirely on them

I really like to mix on a large number of systems … but if I had to do it on only one, it would (still) be the NS10’s.

I see the Yorkville name mentioned a lot here. Ah, (low-end) flavor de-jour. Next year … who knows!

I don’t think of the NS-10’s as just “any crap home stereo speaker” (as has been mentioned in this thread). They were designed before the days of the crap that dominates our market these days. A market where hype backed up by cheaply made components dominates the lower end. And, Hype backed up by stupidly over indulgent components dominates the upper end.

We are all still left with the question: Where will the pro’s turn if the NS-10’s go away entirely…

The NS10's are a delicate balance between a typical cone speaker and a precision tranducer. The woofer is typical of a ceiling speaker but very very rugged. The serious crossover is key to its nice response. The tweeter is a presicion element with +/- 2dB response within range.

I have heard so many people say ns10's sound like crap. Guess what..what sounds like crap are the mixes they are hearing!

Make your mix sound nice on NS10's and it will travel very far. I used them for many many years, now I use their big grandaddy..the NS1000M's. It simply does not get better IMHO.

Hi All,
There are some Good comments here,But There are a lot of ill informed opinions as well. The thing about Monitors is the interaction & loading & transfer from amp to Speaker. Some Speakers sound great,but with some amps that are known to be good as well they sound crap .e.g Tannoys & crown or hafler, But the same speaker will sound like it should with Revox or Yamaha or Dynalab.
NS10m can be used to Mix!!!!
One comment said that because of the bottom end missing that that was impossible Crap!!! You look at the Ballistics of the low driver & if you have a brain & have figured out you rooms problems It is very easy to use them to achieve a broadcast material standard.
I have never found any other speaker to transfer into the real world as yet like an NS10m!!
I am very open but nothing has worked for me at all!As for the fatigue you are using too much treble if you are experiencing THAT!
If you want bright mixes put some tissue paper over the tweeter!
Unfortunately on these forums Any one with an opinion can post.
Experience is everything. You have to asses what is going on with the system you are using. I know mastering engineer who work with spearers that I would never listen too at all & they are embarrasses about but it works for them because they have assesed the transfer characteristics of their whole system e.g. Room! Mixer! Cabling! Amps! & Speakers. Without seeing the whole picture raving about one component is pissing in the wind! Near fields are susceptible to the 3 fundamentals in the rooms H1 W1 L1. But if you know what is really going on you can compensate .That's what being an audio engineer is.
Nothing is perfect at all. If some speaker is sounding sweet e.g.,Tannoy,Genelec,Dynaudio,KRK,Mackie,NHT.
It doesn't mean you are hearing the whole picture.
If you mixes sound harsh & annoying on NS10m’s IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE!!!!!!
Love & Peace Michael
EarthMedia Studios

Right fuckin on my brother!

I wanted to metion ballistics of the woofer..but I was afraid I would be goffed at for that one. It is key.

I look at the kick excursion (when I used them) and made sure my bass notes were 1/2 the excursion. Pretty simple eh? Watch the cones move. vibe with them. Thats how I got the bass right..and if you use a damn good high fidelity TUBE amp in your system..it goes on another level.
The 8TC Kimber cable helps translate the power accruracy of the signal to the louspeakers. A most accurate loudspeaker cable.

Right my friend!

Near fields are susceptible to the 3 fundamentals in the rooms H1 W1 L1.

Hi Micheal,
I have enjoyed this topic especially Bill and your comments. Can use please explain what these 3 items are.

Thanks
Bruce

Ahhh, I feel as if I have been vindicated.......Fats
P.S, H1- Height, W1- Width, L1- Length?

Well, for $400 I could get the active yorkvilles and be ready to go.... But if I were to get the NS10s I would have to spend $400+ (on ebay) plus the addition of a decent/good power amp and then there's no garantee that I'll even be able to listen to them for more than a few minutes at a time (do to the ear fatique). And everything I've heard about the NS10s (from multiple sources) say that they DO have ear fatigue and just because a few of you guys haven't had a problem with it doesn't mean that I won't. So I'd really rather not take the chance when I don't have any other monitors to fall back on to mix with incase I can't listen to them for more than a few minutes at a time.

I do still want them, but just not as my only set of monitors....

-tkr

Originally posted by MichaelJohn77:
...Unfortunately on these forums Any one with an opinion can post.
...
Love & Peace Michael
EarthMedia Studios

No, *fortunately* anyone can post here. That's how we exchange ideas, opinions, and learn.

In their day as a consumer speaker, they were not exactly well thought of compared to the competition. They did have exceptional drivers for the day, though- Yamaha knew what they were doing. Yes, the venerated NS-1000 was one of the finest speakers ever to grace the planet.

Anyone remember the NS-10 review from the late great Studio Sound? Anechoic measurement showed crap response; measurement while on a meter bridge showed something interestingly different. The low end extended because of the board bounce (many speakers get a dip at 80-100 Hz, especially sealed cabinet designs), but revealed a comb-filter like response, resulting in a bigger than expected but diffused usable low end down to about 70 Hz. This probably correlates to everyone's experience here.

Those of you getting good mixes from NS-10s do so because you are good engineers, with a well trained ear-brain mechanism, and you have successfully passed the NS-10 learning curve test. You could have done that with any speaker, NS-10s were just the tool du jour.

Yamaha just can't afford to keep making NS-10s, the components have become too expensive for them to manufacture for today's market, in their opinion. That's probably a bad decision on their part. I wonder which chinese manufacturer wants to do a dead-on copy and sell them for $500 a pair from a $50/pr manufacturing cost.

Ray Charles mixes his own recordings. I'm not sure which visual cues he can use to know where the bass is sitting...

Hi Again,
in response to the H1 L1 W1 yes these are the 3 fundamentals of the room. I have discovered that near fields are really susceptible to these resonance's, Even though your ear is close e.g. When you have a very live room & you just deaden a small piece of that room on 1/4 of one surface the whole decay time of the room is Shortened!That is a passive change.
Nearfield are pumping energy into the room exciting it continuously. The decay (of a well tuned Home studio) will still have (because of lack of money etc.) no real bottom end treatment. The waveforms have a longer decay time & are being continuously excited. Because there is a time difference between the immediate program & the room fundamentals you compensate & ignore this info,But it is still there!Where the speakers are in relationship to the interaction of H1,L1, W1, can be OK or a complete disaster. It is just a gamble with the maths,It all depends on what the Freq are & their relationship to each other mathematically whether they are summing & cancelling at the monitor Position. Yep nearfield work but only because you are ignoring info & the bottom end is generally less realistic reproduce in these speakers!!!!!
Ear fatigue is an issue though! Unfortunately you have to be responsible with the levels you monitor at! if the Mix is happening at extremely low levels it is usually a good bet that the overall mix proportional relationships are right! Then you turn it up loud to see if the dynamics are being transferred acceptably & the spearers are handling it because the mix is tight (compression , e.g., intelligibility, clarity & Groove (You have captured the intent of the song & understood what your job is) NS10m are horrible no Question at all!!!!!!!
I cant stand them, but I know if it Mix sound great to you chances are that it will sound great on most other transducers & mediums!
Take a good sounding CD that you love because of its Great Engineering that you know is fantastic. If you put it on NS10m it will sound just as good,My point being if the engineer got it so right & on a crappy thing like an NS10m it still stands up unquestionable, why don't your mixes? It is not easy! yep you are at work & it is not a holiday that's what sorts out the cowboys from pros. Passion is crucial, but passion alone will not be enough these days (unlike the 70’s where you could make shit decisions but nobody knew any better then), To make good sounding mixes. Transfer functionality into the real world is the only thing going for them. Beyond that they are horrible no question! Beyond that you should use more than one set of speakers( if possible) but refer to Ns10m’s at regally intervals if you are worried abut fatigue.
Another point I have to make is that when you are put with you back up against the wall to deliver the finished product because the mastering engineer has already been booked, you don't have the time to question what you are doing at all ! They have never let me down! Also the mastering engineer did absolutely nothing to the Mixes at all except check it was a consistent piece of work,So saying that I know they really work!!!
As for the (unfortunately post ) remark you are totally right Its just the rat bag in me coming out,but can’t I take a stab anyway just for fun?
The Ray Charles comment is a good one!
I Built a studio for a country songwriter who is based in Nashville who was blind. Her ears were amazing ! she could hear the reflection in a door jam & could pick up a leaf on the concrete path after hearing it drop from the tree from 25 ft away. Blind people’s audio perception can be highly developed way beyond us sighted people! And I have no insight as to why or how this is so because I am not blind,sorry.
I hope I have answered what was asked.
Peace Michael

P.S. I forgot about the 80's
That was a horrible excursion into fashion over taste uck!!!!! The 70's also had the some of the best sounding recordings!
Regards,
Michael

NS1000M as I have them set up. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]NS1000's[/]="http://www.recordin…"]NS1000's[/]

Bill,
Cool... man I've got to get a digital camera.... Hey kids, notice that thing on the left with the plant on it? That's a turntable. Can you say turn-table....?.....Fats

Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
Bill,
Cool... man I've got to get a digital camera.... Hey kids, notice that thing on the left with the plant on it? That's a turntable. Can you say turn-table....?.....Fats

one day, about seven years ago, my son who was about 3 at the time walked out of my storage room with an LP in his hand. He said proudly "look dad, a black laserdisc"

Gawd, I am so old! ! ! :c:

The turntable is cool.........But who could miss the Vintage Disc Washer in front!(or is this a re-issue model?) now, I feel old!

That's not just a disc washer it's the anti static gun too....cooool :tu:

They are the real thing, I bought the DW kit in 1977 and the bottle says DII not D3 or 4. I still have another gallon of dII as well! Notice the stylus cleaner and the Stylus brush!
The table is a 37 LB Yamaha YPD8 with string antiskating..Still in MINT condition as well. I have 8 different cartridges and 3 different phono pres. for archiving fine vinyl to high definition audio for those who wants to keep a reserve play of their "blackies" for future use. I honestly feel my digital transfers sound "the same" as the actual vinyl. Everyone else does as well...but for 60/ hr...pretty pricy. It takes about 1.4hrs to restore a disc properly..so a c note per album (remember, RO members get a really special discount..Like almost free..)

Thought I would see the JBL LSR25P speakers listed here There are a lot of them around as studio monitors I have a pair and they sound great.

Thought I would see the JBL LSR25P speakers listed here There are a lot of them around as studio monitors I have a pair and they sound great. Choctaw

There are a lot of speakers out there that sound great! The idea is to have monitors that are accurate. Fats

There's a ton of good info in these posts. I'm currently mixing on Adams S3As and they've changed everything. No fatigue, great translation, accurate and friendly but not flattering.
I have, however, mixed on most of the speakers mentioned. The cheaper Mackies might be one solution. Another (which would require a bryston 4b or it's equivilent) would be the Tannoy Little Golds. These are a producers favorite (I still have mine) but you need to tune the room or the bass will be off. They don't make these anymore but I'm guessing they could be had on Ebay for cheap. They are a well kept secret but you see them in tons of studios because certain guys like paper cones.
The thing about NS10s is that they have to be learned (like any monitor/room) and it always made me tired to listen to them long enough to learn them. That said, millions of hits have been mixed on them. I just can't listen to them for more than 20 minutes.
good luck

I guess the point is, make the NS10's sound PLESENT, then the mix translates. Ok, it is a nasty sounding speaker in the consumer realum..agreed. In the pro realum however, your goal with them is to work them to sound sweet...then you have a very nice translating mix. They don't have to sound ugly. Then mastering takes it to the consumer level.

That IS the point with the NS 10's. Thats all..

Well, I grow weary (dare I say, fatigued?) of this constant assertion that NS 10 are fatiguing. What a load of FLOP from people who haven't got a clue. You come to the forum to ask the experts what they think, then when they speak there opinions you argue with them. Fact; more records have been mixed on NS 10's than any other speaker. Fact; NS 10's are not flattering. Fact; all the other speakers mentioned here are flattering. I guarantee that if you get a set of NS 10's you won't be disappointed and you won't want to give them up. 10 years ago I had to be convinced (almost blackmailed) into buying a pair of NS 10's and I'm soooo glad I did. Thank You Michael Gore (studio god) for twisting my arm until I made the right decision! .....Fats

...."you are engineering correctly, when the ns10's sound right, sweet, non fatiquing, clear, fat and beautiful. Then you have become a true engineer, otherwise if the ns10's sound nasty, your mix is not close at all"

I am working a major master...as in.."remaster" that was mastered by a "great" 8 months ago. He was off.

Album is being rejected as "harsh" and "non involving"

Well it was....

That simple.

He did not recognize how to extrapolate a mix problem into a mastering oppurtunity. He left the mix problem in and made it worse. Must have been using consumer speakers with all their marketing hype. This job would only sound good in his suite...no where else....unless you had 90K speakers at home and his electronics and wires.

Too sad........

Bill said that...and I mean it.

Fats, you did not in any way get in the dog house at all in any posts. Everything you say is very cool with me. No screwing the pooch 'happnin' with you my Man, you are valuable to this forum and sing on...we love ya....

Hey, lets do a web chat soon. Your client or mine...

Bill, :w:
Thanks for the vote of confidence...We will get together and talk / laugh / eat some day. Maybe I can make AES next year. Mrs. Fats has chat lines on AOL, MSN and Yahoo so perhaps we can meet there sometime...That other thing... I just wish the thread would turn back to mics and audio. I tried to change the direction but it seems that everyone wants to talk about the political side of it. I don't want Alan or Stephen to feel like I'm on their case about that, it's just that I come from a strong working class / labor background and sometimes things like this really get under my skin. Thing is I will probably buy the 8 channel mic pre when it hits the market. Like I said, "Me and my big mouth." Fats

Hey Bro, I got your 8 channel Mic pre....

(in jaded NY accent)

Cool... (in a wake and bake left coast accent) I'll send you my addresss..like wow man....

Tekker,
Your point is well taken but I must say I have heard Minimus speakers that sounded pretty good....for a listening system (not reference). I have a pair of Auratones (I call them Awfultones) and your right, they are a worst case scenario type of thing but you know what makes them sound good? When I put them up with the NS 10's :D He he he he.....Fats

Tekker?... That wasn't me.... :(

-tkr

Tekker,
Sorry about the mistake, I must be getting radiation blindness from stareing at this crt.....Fats

Hey guys (any gals?). I'm new to this - I did not hear any discussion of the NHT 10.

They list at $1,200 a set (amp included), and are selling for $440 at zZounds because [apparently] they are an unpopular configuration with the amp a separate unit from the speaker.

Has anyone tried them?

<------- is anxious to try the new Yamaha MSP10 STUDIO monitors they were showing at AES....

http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gPWS00008MSP10+STUDIO