That's a fair amount of detail. I think we can work with this...

I sincerely hope Zilla jumps in here as he is by far the expert on this exact type of arrangement.

In any case, I do an awful lot of recordings just like this (only add vocalist in most cases), so I might have some help.

First, a couple precautionary statements.

1- Please don't try a pickup on bass or piano (unless you can try it for free.) You won't like the results nor will anyone else who listens. For bass I would say it *might* be passable, for piano, it just sounds like crap.

2 - You're likely going to need some minor baffling

Here's my approach to this kind of recording -

1 - Piano - stereo mic. I usually stereo mic the piano from inside the instrument. This means that the lid must be on the tall stick or completely removed (the latter is probably better for a grand in a medium/small room). I like to use any of the following for this purpose:
A- Audix SCX-25
B- Neumann TLM 193
C- AT4040

Depending upon which mic I use, I will change how I use them. For the traditional LDC, I will often do an ORTF or similar above and just in from the outside lip of the piano.

2 - Drums - For jazz, I most often go with a 3 mic set up - 2 overheads and a kick mic. My overheads range from a pair of Schoeps CMC 6 MK 4s in spaced AB over the kit (aiming down - spaced to pick up certain aspects of the kit. If you don't have the Schoeps, go with something that has a full sound and good off-axis sound without a huge presence peak). I'll also occassionally do a MS pair in front of the kit depending upon the kit then use a LDC in front of the kick to get a nice tight kick sound.

3 - Bass - omni mic right at the area between the bridge and the tail. If the bassist won't let you mount it inside there with some rolled up foam, just place it slightly off the instrument. You may need a little compression if your bassist moves a bit. Don't worry about bleed into the omni mic, you're close enough to the bass that it shouldn't be a major issue.

4 - Room - this to me is important. If the room is decent sounding, I would put a spaced pair of omnis in the room where the mix seems to come together well and use this as the main pair of mics. In the mix, bring these mics up to the point where you have a cohesive sound but still plenty of headroom (20 - 25 dB of average headroom). Then, start by bringing the bass in until you get a good, solid foundation without it being boomy or excessive. Then the kit, then the piano. This additive mixing should help create a very cohesive sound without the need for extraneous effects. However, if you'd like, a small touch of a quality reverb may be in order.

As for baffling - if you need to (and I often do when working in environments such as these), I recommend moving blankets. You can pick some up at Markertek for $20 a pop. Having 4 or 5 on hand for a session like this can be a life saver....too much bleed from drums in the piano mics, place a waste-high baffle, etc. Try to get as much of this solved with mic choice and placement first, then move from there with your baffling. Bear in mind, mic bleed is not a bad thing, especially in jazz. Don't try to completely eliminate it. In fact, I would avoid the use of hypercardioids all together for this type of session as they tend to narrow the sound too much and create way too much isolation.

Sorry for the long reply - hope it helps.

J

1. Recording with or without audience?
2. If with audience, is the bass being amplified?
3. What style of jazz are you playing?
4. What is the intended purpose of the final recording?

Cucco wrote: That's a fair amount of detail. I think we can work with this...

I sincerely hope Zilla jumps in here as he is by far the expert on this exact type of arrangement.

.

Sorry for the long reply - hope it helps.

J

Cucco,
Thank you for your help and long replay with precious information's.

Initially we experimented recording with a similar approach 2 mic on piano, 3 on drum, 1 on bass, all condensers.
"The only difference is that we don't have the mics you suggested
And also we are not familiar with LDC, ORTF and LDC terminology ...
so will need to learn about this.."

Our problem with this kind set up was the drum bleed on piano and bass , that yes, is not a bad thing, but in this case it's really to much!
The piano mic pick up more drums than piano...

Baffling will really resolve this? And what kind of baffling will do? just moving blankets?

About the room mics, we pick up the room sound with 2 condenser mics on 2 of the ceiling tricornes of the long wall ... Axially this sound better "natural" than a regular overhead drum mic that usually in our room tend to sound too boxy...
Axially all the instruments sound better from the tri corners mics...
The only problem is the balance between the instruments! there is not enough piano compared to drums...etc...

Will be appropriate a PA "amplification" for piano and bass to bring all the instruments to an even level in the room?

P.S.
A minimalist approach can be an option for a our small room ?

we found this article on the web...

http://www.discmakers.com/music/pse/2005/jarvis.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"""KH: Can you also get good results if a drummer is in the group?
SJ: Yes. Gert recorded a jazz trio in Stockholm using only two microphones on the eponymous album by the Ludvig Berghe Trio. The album graphics includes (see Figure 2) a photograph taken from above the sound stage looking down on the musicians. The two microphones were in omni pick up located in the curve of the piano. The stand up bass was placed on a riser a foot or so away and slightly to the side of the center of the backside of the omni pair. The drums, which have the potential to overpower the other instruments, were located approximately 8 feet away toward the end of the piano with several tall baffles behind the kit.

It was evidence of Gert's genius to see the logic of how he balanced the sound and dynamics of the instruments and players of a very energetic and commercial jazz performance using only two inputs and no mixer. (Editor’s Note: The full album credits and three streamed examples are available online by clicking on the “Catalog” option at http://www.moserobie.com. Even via lo res web streaming, the separation and clarity of the instruments is evident!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you very much for helping.

No problem...

Technology terminology and acronyms -

LDC = Large Diaphragm Condenser microphone
SDC = Small diaphragm condenser
ORTF = Mic pattern marked by use of 2 microphones positioned at 110 degrees from eachother (or 55 degrees off center axis) with their capsules spaced at 17 cm.

Baffling the drums with the moving blankets is likely to help quite a bit. However, placement of the piano mics is critical. If you're positioning them so that they are facing the drums (as well as the piano) or even so their sides are facing the piano, you're likely to have a lot of bleed. However, facing them so that the rear of the mics are facing the drums and the fronts are facing the piano, you're likely to get much less bleed. (Although, in a room that sized, the difference won't be HUGE, it will be noticable.)

I would STRONGLY advise against placing your room mics in the corners of the room. STRONGLY....VERY STRONGLY.

So much goes on in the corner...reinforcement of bass frequencies, cancellation of higher frequencies, comb filtering and so much other badness, I just wouldn't go there. I would advise placing the mics at a 1/3 distance or 1/5 distance. This means, divide the room in thirds (or fifths) and mark the areas on the floor where these occur. Try placing your mics at the 1/3 or 2/3s (probaly the 2/3s as the 1/3 is probably too close). Then, from there, make minor adjustments front to back. Keep the capsules relatively close - maybe 2 feet give or take 6 inches or so.

Perhaps some of the moving blankets behind the mics would work here too. Just not too close, maybe a couple feet back and high enough to make a difference.

All of this is dependent upon whether the ensemble is balanced to begin with. If the drums over power in the room as it is, no amount of micing will fix this. Make sure that the musicians are blending well. I've found that in most cases, when a recording just won't balance well, it's because of:

1 - Someone's playing without regard to what's going on around them (very common of drummers)
2 - The acoustics of the room or the placement of the mics tend to emphasize or de-emphasize one or a group of instruments.

Minimalism is cool and I like working with as little as possible when possible. However, minimalist approaches to recording take into consideration both of the points I listed above. If either or neither of these are dead on, the minimalist approach will not work.

You don't have to have the mics I referenced by any stretch of the imagination. I simply listed them to give you an idea as to what I use for these situations. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea though to list what you do have a little more specifically than simply type of mic...give us brand and model and we'll have a little more to go on.

Cheers -

Jeremy

Zilla wrote: 1. Recording with or without audience?
2. If with audience, is the bass being amplified?
3. What style of jazz are you playing?
4. What is the intended purpose of the final recording?

thanks for your question Zilla,
1) No audience, we are inside a garage...
2) the bass is not being amplified for now. But probably a PA for the piano and amplifier for the bass will help us to play better with full dynamic where it's needed.
3) high energy, dynamic, creative style.
4) Recording creative music, experimenting with our trio and friends.
playing and recording at home what's usually not allowed in regular gigs etc..
Also producing piano, drum and bass protools tracks for friends works composers, producers, etc...

Thank you for your questions.

Hmmm...if the piano (a grand) needs amplification to compete or blend in the mix, then the drums are way too loud. A PA on piano will definitely not add quality to the recording - only the sound of a poorly amplified piano sound to a jazz combo.

Upright bass...maybe a different story, but for recording, I still might be inclined to not use a pickup.

In any case, I'm guessing your drums are way too loud if you need to amplify everything else.

Cucco wrote: No problem...

Technology terminology and acronyms - .................

I would STRONGLY advise against placing your room mics in the corners of the room. STRONGLY....VERY STRONGLY.

So much goes on in the corner...to make a difference. .......................

All of this is dependent upon whether the ensemble is balanced to begin with. If the drums over power in the room as it is, no amount of micing will fix this. Make sure that the musicians are blending well. I've found that in most cases, when a recording just won't balance well, it's because of:........................

1 - Someone's playing without regard to what's going on around them (very common of drummers)
2 - The acoustics of the room or the placement of the mics tend to emphasize or de-emphasize one or a group of instruments.....................

.....s. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea though to list what you do have a little more specifically than simply type of mic...give us brand and model and we'll have a little more to go on.

Cheers -

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy, thank you for all your teaching. This is a really good learning experience for us.

1) OK, NO Room mic on the tricornes... we thought it sound more full... not sure why,

2) Yes the drums over power in the room "axially more on the tape" but not because the drummer playing without regard to what's going on around , He's the first one to realize that the drum over power in the room and he play very soft to compensate for that... but for some songs we just like to play with more dynamic, we just need that for the song...for us...
So... a bass amp and PA for the piano will kill the recording? Or we should try ?

here the list of the Mics we have:

( 8 ) Oktava MK319 large condensers cardioid
(2)MXL 2003 large condenser cardioid
(1) MXL Mogami edition V69 Tube large condenser cardioid
(2) Sterling audio ST31 small condenser hypercardioid
(1) AKG C1000 S small condenser cardioid-hypercardioid
(1) Audio Technica ATM 35 miniature condenser cardioid
(3) Behringer ECM8000 measurement condenser omni
(2) Behringer C-2 small condenser cardioid

(1) Shure SM58 dynamic cardioid
(1) Shure Beta 58 dynamic hypercardioid
(1) Shure Beta 57 dynamic hypercardioid
(4) Shure SM57 dynamic cardioid
(1) Audio Technica ATM25 dynamic hypercardioid

P.S. Minimalism will be a good experiment too...but probably this room it is too small for that...

thanks again for your help.

If you need floor monitors while you play, then you are not balancing acoustically in the room, therefore a stereo mic technique will NOT work for you.

If you decide to let the drummer play loud (overbalancing the ensemble) then you will need to use headphones for a monitor mix. Do not use floor monitors as they will just add cacophony in the room and smear the recording (as Cucco stated).

A medium size garage (cement floor?) is already a limiting factor for sonics. Add a loud drummer and you are doomed from the start. The drums will not sound their best, and they will bleed strongly into everybody else's mic. The solution is quitter drumming technique. The quality of tone will improve and better separation is the bonus. Use mic placement to capture the energy level, not loud playing.

In either case, a quantity of packing blankets is needed to treat the room and create more acoustic isolation between instruments. Buy them in a 5 or 10 pack for best economy.

more later...

Cucco wrote: Hmmm...if the piano (a grand) needs amplification to compete or blend in the mix, then the drums are way too loud. A PA on piano will definitely not add quality to the recording - only the sound of a poorly amplified piano sound to a jazz combo.

Upright bass...maybe a different story, but for recording, I still might be inclined to not use a pickup.

In any case, I'm guessing your drums are way too loud if you need to amplify everything else.

thanks again,
I know what you mean... but look at this, can happen to be like that too :)

OK .. maybe something in between... :wink:

Zilla wrote: If you need floor monitors while you play, then you are not balancing acoustically in the room, therefore ..................

In either case, a quantity of packing blankets is needed to treat the room and create more acoustic isolation between instruments. Buy them in a 5 or 10 pack for best economy.

more later...

Thanks Zilla,
Yes, in fact we are not using bass amp or monitors right now....and the drummer do play with quitter technique and sensitivity and will keep it just like that then... thank you.
but I guess you and Cucco are totally right ! We need some blankets in between...
It was all about the recording and the mic bleed really... we are OK in the room, we can ear each other, we can play.
And yes you are right , the acoustic of the room it's poor.

So, forget about this approach then... :)

P.S. How can we use this blankets? several layers attached to mic stands ?

Cucco and Zilla, thank you very much, all this helps tremendously

We just come back upstairs ...
We did follow all your instructions and now with all the 8 mic up, everything sound GOOD!!! We never had 8 mics up before...

We replaced the piano mics, just like you explained, ORTF with the rear facing the drum, than we removed the two mics from the tricornes , etc etc...
It sound much beter now! And we don't even have blankets jet!
Also, previously the ride cymbal was only about 3 feet from the piano mics.....we just moved around a little.

We have the gain on each M80 preamp at about +20 and everything look good...

thank you so much ..

We do have few questions:

1) About our recording Equipment,
What we should keep , what we should replace if there is better at similar cost? and what it's not really necessary?

we have:

behringer EURORACK MX3242X console.
http://www.behringer.com/MX3242X/index.cfm?lang=eng

presonus M80 8 channel mic pre
http://www.presonus.com/m80.html

M-Audio audio Buddy two channel mic pe
http://www.m-audio.com

SM Pro Audio OC8 8 channel optical compressor
http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=35

Alesis 3630 dual channel compressor
http://www.alesis.com/product.php?id=49

M-Audio Delta 1010 computer interface with protools M powered.
http://www.m-audio.com

Core one X2 mic cables
(Dead Link Removed)

Core one X2 instrument cable from the preamp to the interface..very short but unbalanced.
(Dead Link Removed)

and the following mics:

( 8 ) Oktava MK319 large condensers cardioid
(2)MXL 2003 large condenser cardioid
(1) MXL Mogami edition V69 Tube large condenser cardioid
(2) Sterling audio ST31 small condenser hyper-cardioid
(1) AKG C1000 S small condenser cardioid-hypercardioid
(1) Audio Technica ATM 35 miniature condenser cardioid
(3) Behringer ECM8000 measurement condenser omni
(2) Behringer C-2 small condenser cardioid

(1) Shure SM58 dynamic cardioid
(1) Shure Beta 58 dynamic hyper-cardioid
(1) Shure Beta 57 dynamic hyper-cardioid
(4) Shure SM57 dynamic cardioid
(1) Audio Technica ATM25 dynamic hyper-cardioid

P.S.
the M80 mic preamp output it is 0db,
the input of delta1010 +4 or -10...

2) Do we have the correct placement for the instruments in our rectangular room? How would you set up the trio in the room for recording?

3) Do we really need the low cuts, -10 and -20, vintage warmth controls, phase, compressors etc. etc.. before reaching the interface?
or perhaps an interface with build in mic pres and no cables or extra stuff will be a better approach today?

4) How can we use this blankets? several layers attached to mic stands, any idea?

5) Not sure if we understood correctly where in the room the room mics goes...near the ceiling? near one of the walls?

thank you ... and sorry for all the questions.
this forum really helps
thanks again.

As you've already seen, positioning of instruments and mics has more to do with the quality of recordings than equipment. I'd try putting the piano in the center of the room (actually, slightly away from the center - with all of its nodes), put the drums to the piano's left and the bassist to the right. Leave the top on the piano, but open. This will help shield the piano mics slightly from the drums.

I'm don't think I have a clear enough idea about how you are arranging your system or enough experience with the models you are using to make specific recommendations on equipment, but I'll make two general comments. (1) While you are experimenting with positions and mic techniques strip away everything but what is absolutely necessary to get the material recorded. No outboard effects, no compression. Get your gain structure right with the minimal amount of equipment. Get the best clean, dry signal you can. When you feel you have done the best you can with the minimal setup, add the effects back one at a time and see if they really make an improvement. (2) It is usually a bad idea to make "lateral moves" on the type of semipro equipment you (and I) are using. Yes, there is stuff that is broken, defective, or just poorly made that can be replaced by stuff in the same price range to good effect, but its almost alway a waste of money to swap out one working piece of gear for another in the same quality group. In general it is best to work with what you have and save your pennies to move up in quality.

I'll answer number by number -

1 - I agree with Bob. Don't worry about replacing gear with gear. It just doesn't make sense. Unless something just isn't working. I'm in the process of retooling right now but it's to lighten my load, not make incremental improvements. Otherwise, I wouldn't sell gear to buy gear.

The line outs on the M80 operate at +4, keep the input there on the receiving end.

2 - As I understand it, your room is/was set up like this:
(Dead Link Removed)

I think this is okay, but you're likely to have a little excessive bleed into the piano mics from the drums as well as a slightly boomy piano.

I would maybe suggest going this route:
(Dead Link Removed)

Don't worry too much about making the room look like a stage. Spread out and use the space in its entirety. Also, if it is a concrete floor, put some kind of damping material down under the kick drum - a blanket/rug or similar would be good. The thicker the better. Layers would be best.

3 - I wouldn't do anything prior to the interface. Even when I'm using seriously good gear like Crane Song EQs or Comps or Manley Comps, etc., I don't usually insert it prior to the computer. I'll do it in post a lot of times if it needs to be done at all. For jazz, (especially what I call "parlor jazz" - small combos such as this playing music perhaps a little less progressive than the video you posted), I generally run without effects or minimal at best. For piano, I never touch an effect. For drums, maybe a tad bit of compression (light at most) and occassionally a little compression on bass. The caliber of the bass player usually dictates inversely how much compression is needed.

4 - The blankets should be used to block line of sight between microphones if necessary/possible. I usually take a boom mic stand - orient the boom so that it's perpendicular to the stand (or parallel with the ground) and drape the blanket over it. It creates a 2 layer blanket that way and is pretty darn effective at blocking mid and high frequencies. (It doesn't do jack on low frequencies, but I don't generally find many phasing or bleeding issues from LF as I do with MF and HF).

5 - The room mics go where the mix sounds best in the room. This is generally not near any walls. The rule of 3rds or 5ths is simply a guideline to get you started. In a room such as you're working with, I would suggest keeping the height of the mics at ear level. Walk around the room and find a spot where the whole group is coming in focus and sounds well balanced. If it sounds boomy to you, it will sound boomy to the mics. Don't fall into this trap. Sometimes (for some unknown reason) people fiind "boomy" to be similar to "euphoric" (Which, consequently, is why Bose sells so many acoustimass systems).

You should be looking/listening for clear, articulate sound with little or no overhang (notes ringing out long after they're cut off...) Then place your mics there - roughly where your ears were. Ironically, your ear is a wonderful omnidirectional microphone. It hears sounds from all directions based on pressure within the room and is slightly more sensitive to the directivity of higher frequencies just as any good omni mic is. This is why I like to use them - omnis just sound more like real ears than most mics. (Figure 8s are the other "real" pattern which sound "right" to me. Since cardioid and other patterns are derived from these 2 patterns, I always find something lacking in their sounds. Of course, I'll still use other patterns as they're essential, but if possible, I almost always opt for a "pure" pattern.

No need to apologize for asking questions.

Cheers -

J.

BobRogers wrote: As you've already seen, positioning of instruments and mics has more to do with the quality of recordings than equipment. I'd try putting the piano in the center of the room (actually, slightly away from the center - with all of its nodes), put the drums to the piano's left and the bassist to the right. Leave the top on the piano, but open. .................

Thanks for stepping in Mr Bobrogers, and thanks for your suggestions.
Great so for now will do our best we the stuff we already have unless something really doesn't work...

About positioning of the instruments here how everything will looks in scale:
thank you

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/jazzzz1.png (right now )

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/bobrogers1.png (bobrogers)

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/cucco1.png (Cucco)

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)

Cucco wrote: I'll answer number by number -

J.

Cucco this it is really unbelievable for us, you made a paint of the room with all the positioning for the mics and instruments!
Thank you very very much, this is the best forum in the world!
Thank you for helping and teaching and sharing.

P.S.
Before repositioning all the instrument we need to show you our room in scale, because the room unfortunately it's smaller than the one on your link.

here:

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/jazzzz1.png (right now)

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/bobrogers1.png (bobrogers)

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/cucco1.png (Cucco)

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)

thanks again.

I would think that really any of these approaches could/should work. However, the proof is in the pudding...or at least in the listening.

I would take a good hour or two to get things exactly where you want them and go from there.

One other piece of advice...I'm assuming that the garage is not heavily acoustically treated. In addition to the blankets, you might want to add some mass in the corners. This can be spare tires, book shelves, dead bodies, unpacked boxes, etc. This will help to alleviate what I'm estimating to be some pretty badly reinforced low frequency modes.

Cheers -

J.

Interesting. Basically Cucco's and my suggestions are very similar, and if you try either you should try both - plus any other slight variations you can think of. As a bassist, I'd love to play in the minimalist configuration, but it might have less separation for recording. As a matter of practicality, I'd assume you would stick to the present configuration when practicing - more room ot move around. If you are really going to move things around often - have a tech make sure the legs and wheels of the piano are in good shape.

A couple of things that have not been mentioned - doing some acoustic treatment of your room will help your recordings a lot and make your practice experiences much more pleasant. Check our the acoustic forum here. If all you do is put bass traps in the four corners, it will make a noticeable difference.

I hesitate to mention this - it is on the order of saying "have your tried 'crack'" - but for live performances (not recording), your bassist may want to check out Talkbass.com for discussions of pickups and amps. There are reasonably priced options, but no options really work so you bassist will be on an eternal, frustrating, search for the ultimate URB pickup/amp system. At this moment I am risking divorce by looking longingly at a Acoustic Image Contra acoustic bass amp - "but hon' it works great on acoustic guitar and keyboard!" (I have actually said that!) Anyway, this has nothing to do with your recording situation. I just thought I'd spread my obsession.

Positioning of the instruments will be experimented tomorrow.
Will experiment 4 different instrument positioning approaches.

1) classic Live (piano on the left, bass in the center, drum, on the right ) 8 mics.
2)Minimalist , 2 mics and 8 mics.
3) Cucco, 8 mics
4)Bobrogers, 8 mics.

Will post again tomorrow night.
thank you

As usual, I'm late to the table on this discussion, :roll: but I'd probably go with the version suggested by Minimalist. I've done countless live gigs with the bass in the middle, piano on the left at full or half-stick, and drums on the right. You can't agrue with success. Plus, everyone can see and hear each other best this way.

BUT, in terms of best isolation and keeping things a bit more isolated, consider the drums far left, bass in the center, and piano with the open side facing off to the RIGHT. (Best isolation this way from the other mics.) You can also put everyone on cans to hear each other, if it's needed.

Again, it might yield better iso that way, but for a good live image that everyone can easily relate to, Minimalist is the best choice, IMHO.

JoeH wrote: As usual, I'm late to the table on this discussion, :roll: but I'd probably go with the version suggested by Minimalist. I've done countless live gigs with the bass in the middle, piano on the left at full or half-stick, and drums on the right. You can't agrue with success. Plus, everyone can see and hear each other best this way.

BUT, in terms of best isolation and keeping things a bit more isolated, consider the drums far left, bass in the center, and piano with the open side facing off to the RIGHT. (Best isolation this way from the other mics.) You can also put everyone on cans to hear each other, if it's needed.

Again, it might yield better iso that way, but for a good live image that everyone can easily relate to, Minimalist is the best choice, IMHO.

Thank you Joeh!

Also thank you , Cucco , Zilla and bobrogers.

First of all , We would like to apologize for a couple wrong information we posted...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) There is not more drums than piano on the piano mics, we just got confused with the room mics. the Drums bleed in the piano mics just like the piano bleed in the drums overhead mics and well balanced.... with additional blankets and about 3 more feet this improve even more.

Of course, the room mics on the center of the room or tri corners, tend to pick up the excessive bass build up and probably excessive high frequencies on drums...also it emphasize a boxy muddy mid range piano sound and boomy bass.

2) After experimenting with 8 mics yesterday we got a little over exited and said that the recording sound GOOD... Sorry about that, this is not true, we just got confused again...
In reality the 8 mics set up sound just a little better than the previous really bad sounding 4 mics set up...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today experiments:

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/jazzzz1.png (right now)
This was our original set up,
Bad isolation between drums and piano, slightly boxy piano sound.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/bobrogers1.png (bobrogers)
better isolation between drum and piano, better piano sound, but drummer and bassist can't see and hear each other very well...

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/cucco1.png (Cucco)
medium isolation, better piano sound, excessive bass build up on the drum corner.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/Live.png (classic live)
good isolation between piano and drums, slightly boomy boxy piano sound, corner bass build up on drums.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/studio.png
Not experimented jet.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
comfortable for the musician's , good piano sound, good drum sound, good bass sound, best trio sound recorded with only two spaced omnidirectional mics located in the curve of the piano, very good balance between the instruments.

Unless we are confused again, for the trio, we really like the stereo minimalist approach with just two omni mics, and considering that we are using $30.00 behringer measurement mics and that the room acoustic need to be improved, We have the feeling that this it's going to work...
It just sound better for the trio and also very easy to set up.

Hovever , recording protools instrumental tracks for friends, composers, producers etc.. probably require a different approach instead.
A more tight sound. maximum isolation etc.

So....
sorry .. :P just two more questions,

1) Minimalist

What omni mics, cables, and preamp we need to step to the next level ?right now we are using behringer ecm8000 omnidirectional measurement mics, Core audio X2 cables, presonus m80 preamp, and delta 1010 sound card?

2) protools tracks

What about all dynamic mics in this case?
beta 57s, beta 58,s
or
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/fa5c4a022488cf7b/index.html
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/1f67f237a1b10c27/index.html
etc..

Close miking technique, very tight sound , no room at all, dry ,
Just for Protools processing addicted.. :lol:

thanks again

Since you are still doing a lot of experimenting, I'd get a pair of multi pattern condensers rather than going for omnis. That way you can use them as omnis, but also experiment with mid/side and Blumlein, use them as cardioid drum overheads, etc., etc.

There is a wide price range for these, so you can find something within you budget. I have a pair of AKG C414s that are workhorses for me, but you can get opinions from people who have tried a lot more mics than I have by doing a search.

I cringe when I see the term "measurement mic" and "Behringer" in the same sentence...

I know they pitch these as measurement mics, but the only resemblence they have to such is their shape.

A good omni mic is a thing of beauty for the ear to behold and unfortunately, to get that kind of quality, it costs a lot of money. Unless you're ready to pony up at minimum $2500 per pair (used) I wouldn't worry too much about getting a great omni.

On the other hand, there are a few which produce acceptable results at a reasonable price. The 414 is such an option, though they don't do a true omni (only a summed output of two in-phase directional capsules). Additionally, Rode makes a mic set - the NT55 I think - that is a SDC with interchangeable omni and cardioid caps. I have not tried this mic so I can't speak directly to its quality, but I've used a fair bit of Rode mics and can state with some confidence that they make a quality product that usually far exceeds its cost/performance ratio.

... they make a quality product that usually far exceeds its cost/performance ratio

I like my Oktava MK012 matched stereo pairs
also great cost / performance
and they certainly don't have a hyped top end

I like the Oktavas as well. Though I wouldn't say that the Rodes have a hyped top end (not sure if that's what you meant.)

My only gripe with the Oktavas is that cutting through the BS to find a reputable dealer is difficult if you've never done it before.

Thanks GentleG

Everybody!
Will be too difficult to home build two decent omni mics?

P.S. Cucco... I guess The output of the M80 presonus preamp it's 0db not +4
We need to push it to the limit to get good levels in protools.
Our behringer mixer or audio buddy works well instead..... how it's that?

Maybe the m80 was made to be compatible with Adat or similar recorders with 0db inputs?
Is this a problem ?

At this point we have the impression that it's not only about the quality of the mic or pre or cable etc ...

They need to work well together too...

Of course, will start from the mics..
But only if this make a difference that we can axially hear

P.S. there is a digital input on the back of the Delta 1010...!

bobrogers thanks again,
Zilla we lost you?
Joeh, We hope to ear from you too.
thanks everybody!

hello jazzz

The output of the M80 presonus preamp it's 0db not +4

FYI, to quote the M80 manual, The Output XLR Connector is servo balanced and operates at +4dBu. I wonder if you are using anything other than the xlr channel output of your m80 to feed your recorder, or you have the 20 dB pad enabled... the transformer coupled m80 certainly should not sound less robust than your behringer or audio buddy pres.

no offense intended, but you need to know that the "dB" is probably the most misunderstood and abused term in pro audio. I have been trying to get a grip of it for years and i cannot say i've got it. whats clear however, is that you too need to put some effort here. I won't even begin to impart my half baked knowledge on this subject.

as for your main question, i'm glad you've found a two mic solution you like. fewer mics of course result in a more natural sounding recording... if you are looking for options, i'd differ from the other very good suggestions in one way.... i'd never stereo mic individual instruments for jazz.

i'd say, get a good acoustic balance and comfortable sight lines happening and then put just one condenser mic for each instrument. I would start about 4' high, in front of the kick, pointing towards the snare, for the drums, a central point 3-4' over the piano, and relatively closer micing for the bass. Experiment with cardioid and omni. A two mic approach might serve you best, but I believe the classic jazz recordings which i reference (1950s) were by and large approached like this.

oh... and the omni mics you mention are likely to have very high self noise, in the range of 30 dB(a), and require a tremendous amount of gain (almost as much as your average dynamic mic), so i'm not surprised that they sound noisy. I'm just surprised that the behringer and audio buddy are performing better.

regards,

It is usually not the best choice to drive preamps in this price range as hard as possible. In my experience it's more important to stay in the linear range of the preamp than it is to get a saturated digital signal. We are talking 24 bit digital, not tape. Filling up only 16 or 18 bits is a perfectly "good" level in PT. It may not be the best signal to noise ratio, but it is usually better to sacrifice that than the linearity of the preamp. If you find the lower levels harder to mix, you can use the normalize function in the PT audio suite. As I understand it, that is a straight multiplication of the signal (yes, noise included), so your peaks can fill up as may bits as you desire.

rfreez wrote: hello jazzz

FYI, to quote the M80 manual, The Output XLR Connector is servo balanced and operates at +4dBu. I wonder if you are using anything other than the xlr channel output of your m80 to feed your recorder, or you have the 20 dB pad enabled... the transformer coupled m80 certainly should not sound less robust than your behringer or audio buddy pres.

no offense intended, but you need to know that the "dB" is probably the most misunderstood and abused term in pro audio. I have been trying to get a grip of it for years and i cannot say i've got it. whats clear however, is that you too need to put some effort here. I won't even begin to impart my half baked knowledge on this subject.

as for your main question, i'm glad you've found a two mic solution you like. fewer mics of course result in a more natural sounding recording... if you are looking for options, i'd differ from the other very good suggestions in one way.... i'd never stereo mic individual instruments for jazz.

i'd say, get a good acoustic balance and comfortable sight lines happening and then put just one condenser mic for each instrument. I would start about 4' high, in front of the kick, pointing towards the snare, for the drums, a central point 3-4' over the piano, and relatively closer micing for the bass. Experiment with cardioid and omni. A two mic approach might serve you best, but I believe the classic jazz recordings which i reference (1950s) were by and large approached like this.

regards,

thank you very much rfreez,

also BobRogers....

We are using XLR output...and we experimented also with the send outputs.

We don't really know much about this technical stuff but...
here the presonus page... http://www.presonus.com/m80.html#tech

Presonus Technical Support told one of us in the past that the M80 operate at 0 and if the receiving interface operate at +4 we are loosing 4db of gain,
to avoid this they suggested this:
send output of the m80 to a compressor that operate at +4 .
output of the compressor to the input of the interface without returning into the send/returns of the m80...

they also said to not worry about turning up the gain of the m80
because the m80 with +28dbu of headroom will not sound bad even if output level clip.

but we don't use compressors now...

To get a decent level on protools we need to turn up the gain of the m80 until the level m clip.
the amount of gain depend on the mic but we still need to turn the gain up until we see plenty of red on the m80 output level

With the behringer console or studio buddy or a Yamaha little mixer we don't need to clip ...

And BobRogers , yes we do know that we can normalize on protools... but?

plenty of red on the output level it's really acceptable?....
and
normalizing is the same as recording with full dynamic range?

Also rfreez

Thank you for your input, yes we do have the impression that fewer mics result in a more natural sounding recording.
We never understood how to create a natural stereo image of the band using a stereo mic or more mic on each instrument ...

A couples of weeks ago, we experimented with a 3 mics set up similar to the one you suggested, and we liked it !
But...
How the instruments should be positioned to obtain a natural stereo image with 3 mics ?

In the old jazz recordings we have, we hear the piano on one channel the bass on the center and the drums on the other channel...
Are we talking about the same approach?
What positioning of the instruments you recommend for a 3 mics set up?

JoeH wrote: As usual, I'm late to the table on this discussion, :roll: but I'd probably go with the version suggested by Minimalist. I've done countless live gigs with the bass in the middle, piano on the left at full or half-stick, and drums on the right. You can't agrue with success. Plus, everyone can see and hear each other best this way.

BUT, in terms of best isolation and keeping things a bit more isolated, consider the drums far left, bass in the center, and piano with the open side facing off to the RIGHT. (Best isolation this way from the other mics.) You can also put everyone on cans to hear each other, if it's needed.

Again, it might yield better iso that way, but for a good live image that everyone can easily relate to, Minimalist is the best choice, IMHO.

Thanks JoeH ...
Sorry we are beginners...What is IMHO?
Also you said "minimalist is the best choice"....
Do you mean with only 2 mics just like this?:
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
or your suggestion was only about instrument positioning?

Also the live set up you suggested will be this ?:
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/Live.png (classic live)

And for best isolation this ?
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/studio.png

With how many mics you are appraching the live and studio set up you suggested?

thank you in advance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here again our impressions about all the different instrument positioning approaches we experimented until now in our room:

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/jazzzz1.png (right now)
This was our original set up,
Bad isolation between drums and piano, good drum sound, slightly boxy piano sound.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/bobrogers1.png (bobrogers)
better isolation between drum and piano, better piano sound, but drummer and bassist can't see and hear each other very well...

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/cucco1.png (Cucco)
medium isolation, better piano sound, excessive bass build up on the drum corner.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/Live.png (classic live)
good isolation between piano and drums, slightly boxy piano sound, bass build up on drums corner.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/studio.png
Not experimented jet.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
Good piano sound, good drum sound, good bass sound, best trio sound recorded with only two spaced omnidirectional mics located in the curve of the piano, very good balance between the instruments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something's not right. If you're pegging the output of the Presonus but you're not getting very much level in ProTools, something's wrong.

I'm not sure that the statement from PreSonus is correct (about operating at 0dBu) and if so, their advice (about the compressor) is not good advice at all. Loosing 4 dB between the pre and the interface won't be the end of the world - far better than mucking up the signal with another piece of gear in the chain.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the meters unless there's a problem. In this case, as I said, there's a problem. I would assume that at either the interface or in the program, there's something set wrong. It's possible you're also using unbalanced single-ended cables (TS instead of TRS)

I wouldn't worry about the brands of your cables - just the types.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've just poured through the manual while typing this -

The output of the M80 is in fact +4dBu. There has to be some kind of cabling problem. What are your settings on the M80 (all of them) and what cables (type, not brand) are you using to go to the computer interface? Also, are you taking the output directly from the XLR output or are you coming out of the send? Is the pad engaged?

Cucco wrote: Something's not right. If you're pegging the output of the Presonus but you're not getting very much level in ProTools, something's wrong.

I'm not sure that the statement from PreSonus is correct (about operating at 0dBu) and if so, their advice (about the compressor) is not good advice at all. Loosing 4 dB between the pre and the interface won't be the end of the world - far better than mucking up the signal with another piece of gear in the chain.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the meters unless there's a problem. In this case, as I said, there's a problem. I would assume that at either the interface or in the program, there's something set wrong. It's possible you're also using unbalanced single-ended cables (TS instead of TRS)

I wouldn't worry about the brands of your cables - just the types.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've just poured through the manual while typing this -

The output of the M80 is in fact +4dBu. There has to be some kind of cabling problem. What are your settings on the M80 (all of them) and what cables (type, not brand) are you using to go to the computer interface? Also, are you taking the output directly from the XLR output or are you coming out of the send? Is the pad engaged?

M80 all flat, only Phantom power and gain,
to get an overall 0db with occasional +8 and maybe unaspected +18 on the output level , the gain depending on the mic type it is usually at 15 - 40..

No matter what cable or output , we get the same levels....
We have balanced xlr to trs, balanced trs to trs , very short unbalanced high quality instrument cable , and a regular snake...

the m80 has two different output , an xlr output and a send output ,
we experimented with all .
no pad , all flat, only gain and phantom power.

the delta 1010 back switch it is on +4 mode.

to achieve decent levels in protools using the M80 we need to clip it.

With the behringer or Yamaha mixers or the audio buddy, same cables similar levels etc we are getting about 25% "if not more" stronger signal in protools.

?? :roll:

JAZZZZ wrote: the delta 1010 back switch it is on +4 mode.

Hi, I've been reading this forum for a while and thought I'd jump in.

I'm pretty familiar with the Delta 1010 - if you look at the specs the maximum input when it's set to "+4" mode is actually +20.2dBu. It can handle quite a bit of voltage. If your preamp can't put out much more than the +4dBu it's rated at you won't be able to get to 0dB (full scale) in your software very easily.

You could try running the 1010 in "-10" mode, which would give you more gain. I think it also brings up the noise floor, but it's worth a shot. That puts the max at +2dBV (per the specs), which if I'm not mistaken is just a little over +4dBu, which should work fine.

-Keith

Keith_K wrote: [quote=JAZZZZ]the delta 1010 back switch it is on +4 mode.

Hi, I've been reading this forum for a while and thought I'd jump in.

I'm pretty familiar with the Delta 1010 - if you look at the specs the maximum input when it's set to "+4" mode is actually +20.2dBu. It can handle quite a bit of voltage. If your preamp can't put out much more than the +4dBu it's rated at you won't be able to get to 0dB (full scale) in your software very easily.

You could try running the 1010 in "-10" mode, which would give you more gain. I think it also brings up the noise floor, but it's worth a shot. That puts the max at +2dBV (per the specs), which if I'm not mistaken is just a little over +4dBu, which should work fine.

-Keith

Thanks for jumping in and explaining Keith_k !!
With the -10 mode on the delta 1010, we are clipping protools! To hot!
doesn't work...
thank you any way... will figure it out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more experiment..:
Today we connected our best condenser mic straight to the interface using a regular trs to xlr cable, without using a preamp at all, only a Phantom power, the level in protools was very very weak, we selected -10 on the interface input , than we boasted the gain in protools , and then after recording we normalized !!!! All sounded good! Axially better! surprisingly clean and defined..
So... sound like we don't need the preamp anymore if we use the software as a preamp! ! :shock: Are we missing something?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well , sorry everybody, probably we went to deep with technical questions about our gear... .
Our original post was about recording our Jazz trio and not about learning how to use our gear... sorry.
From now on, to avoid confusion, will stop asking questions about our gear.

So...so far until now we learned 3 different recording techniques..
1) minimalist, 2 mics,
2) Cucco, 8 Mic
3) rfreez 3 Mics.
And experimented with 4 new instrument positioning, one from Cucco, one from bobrogers, and two from JoeH,Thank you all.
Thanks also to GentleG , Zilla and Keith-K for jumping in.
We hope to keep learning more approaches from all of you, but for now we have just few more questions.

1) To Refreez, 3 mics 50s approach. one mic for each instrument

rfreez wrote: hello jazzz , as for your main question, i'm glad you've found a two mic solution you like. fewer mics of course result in a more natural sounding recording... if you are looking for options, i'd differ from the other very good suggestions in one way.... i'd never stereo mic individual instruments for jazz.

i'd say, get a good acoustic balance and comfortable sight lines happening and then put just one condenser mic for each instrument. I would start about 4' high, in front of the kick, pointing towards the snare, for the drums, a central point 3-4' over the piano, and relatively closer micing for the bass. Experiment with cardioid and omni. A two mic approach might serve you best, but I believe the classic jazz recordings which i reference (1950s) were by and large approached like this.

oh... and the omni mics you mention are likely to have very high self noise, in the range of 30 dB(a), and require a tremendous amount of gain (almost as much as your average dynamic mic), so i'm not surprised that they sound noisy. I'm just surprised that the behringer and audio buddy are performing better.

regards,

Thank you for your help, yes we do have the impression that fewer mics result in a more natural sounding recording.
A couples of weeks ago, we experimented with a 3 mics set up similar to the one you suggested, and we liked it !
But...
How the instruments in the room should be positioned to obtain a natural stereo image with 3 mics ?
Guess to much isolation between the instrument in this case can be a problem..
In the old jazz recordings , we hear the piano on one channel the bass on the center and the drums on the other channel...

2)To JoeH,

JoeH wrote: As usual, I'm late to the table on this discussion, :roll: but I'd probably go with the version suggested by Minimalist. I've done countless live gigs with the bass in the middle, piano on the left at full or half-stick, and drums on the right. You can't agrue with success. Plus, everyone can see and hear each other best this way.

BUT, in terms of best isolation and keeping things a bit more isolated, consider the drums far left, bass in the center, and piano with the open side facing off to the RIGHT. (Best isolation this way from the other mics.) You can also put everyone on cans to hear each other, if it's needed.

Again, it might yield better iso that way, but for a good live image that everyone can easily relate to, Minimalist is the best choice, IMHO.

Thanks JoeH ...
Sorry we are beginners...What is IMHO?
Also you said "minimalist is the best choice"....
Do you mean with only 2 mics just like this?:
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
or your suggestion was only about instrument positioning?

Also the live set up you suggested will be this ?:
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/Live.png (classic live)

And for best isolation this ?
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/studio.png

With how many mics you are approaching the live and studio set up you suggested?

To Zilla

Zilla wrote: If you need floor monitors while you play, then you are not balancing acoustically in the room, therefore a stereo mic technique will NOT work for you.

If you decide to let the drummer play loud (overbalancing the ensemble) then you will need to use headphones for a monitor mix. Do not use floor monitors as they will just add cacophony in the room and smear the recording (as Cucco stated).

A medium size garage (cement floor?) is already a limiting factor for sonics. Add a loud drummer and you are doomed from the start. The drums will not sound their best, and they will bleed strongly into everybody else's mic. The solution is quitter drumming technique. The quality of tone will improve and better separation is the bonus. Use mic placement to capture the energy level, not loud playing.

In either case, a quantity of packing blankets is needed to treat the room and create more acoustic isolation between instruments. Buy them in a 5 or 10 pack for best economy.

more later...

Thank you Zilla, we never received the "more later" from you :cry:
hopefully you'll step in soon..Cucco said that you was the expert in situation like this...

Our Idea was just to reinforce a little the piano and maybe bass with good quality amplification.
Usually during rehearsals, gigs etc. the bassist play with an amp all the time, and sometimes during gigs there is a mic on the piano too...
But to facilitate the recording process in our room we decided to record without amp, and instead balancing acoustically in the room.
It axially works for us , we can play and still hear each other, we do have the impression that we are balancing ....
Of course the room doesn't really help with this, especially if we play music that require Lot's of playing, and this make things more difficult!
But the room mic if placed a the same distance from each instrument about in the center of the band... tend to favor the high frequency sounds of the cymbals / snare wire...and bass frequencies of the bass, bass drum and floor toms.. no matter how good or balanced we are trying to play...

Just wondering ....Is this normal in a small room?
In a small room do you usually record with room mics in the center of the band at the same distance from each instrument ?
We are not balancing Acoustically?
If so... why the Minimalist approach with just two omni mics placed on the curve of the piano and about 6 feet from the drums works well for Us ?
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
Why the engineer developed this kind of approach?
http://www.discmakers.com/music/pse/2005/jarvis.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"""KH: Can you also get good results if a drummer is in the group?
SJ: Yes. Gert recorded a jazz trio in Stockholm using only two microphones on the eponymous album by the Ludvig Berghe Trio. The album graphics includes (see Figure 2) a photograph taken from above the sound stage looking down on the musicians. The two microphones were in omni pick up located in the curve of the piano. The stand up bass was placed on a riser a foot or so away and slightly to the side of the center of the backside of the omni pair. The drums, which have the potential to overpower the other instruments, were located approximately 8 feet away toward the end of the piano with several tall baffles behind the kit.

It was evidence of Gert's genius to see the logic of how he balanced the sound and dynamics of the instruments and players of a very energetic and commercial jazz performance using only two inputs and no mixer. (Editor’s Note: The full album credits and three streamed examples are available online by clicking on the “Catalog” option at http://www.moserobie.com. Even via lo res web streaming, the separation and clarity of the instruments is evident!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the above just because musicians are not not balancing?
Or because it's normal for some instruments to tend to sound more upfront or in the back, louder, brighter etc etc ?

thank you in advance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here again our impressions about all the different instrument positioning approaches we experimented until now in our room:

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/jazzzz1.png (right now)
This was our original set up,
Bad isolation between drums and piano, good drum sound, slightly boxy piano sound.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/bobrogers1.png (bobrogers)
better isolation between drum and piano, better piano sound, but drummer and bassist can't see and hear each other very well...

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/cucco1.png (Cucco)
medium isolation, better piano sound, excessive bass build up on the drum corner.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/Live.png (classic live)
good isolation between piano and drums, slightly boxy piano sound, bass build up on drums corner.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/studio.png
Not experimented jet.

http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)
Good piano sound, good drum sound, good bass sound, best trio sound recorded with only two spaced omnidirectional mics located in the curve of the piano, very good balance between the instruments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAZZZZ wrote: ... we can play and still hear each other, we do have the impression that we are balancing ....
...
We are not balancing Acoustically?
If so... why the Minimalist approach with just two omni mics placed on the curve of the piano and about 6 feet from the drums works well for Us ?
http://members.cox.net/bluedrec/minimalist.png (minimalist)

If that approach is "working for you" then why are you still posting questions about it? Okay, okay... So I take it that it's the ensemble balance which is working for you, but the timbre (frequency balance) is not (you stated excessive high's and lows). This is resulting from the combination of mic placement, room acoustics, and equipment response. Untangling that knot via this forum is difficult. You may be getting a good ensemble balance with the minimalist approach, but if the timbre of the recording is still poor after much experimentation, then you must accept that the room acoustics do not support pleasing sonics. Choose a different approach. Probably one with significant isolation and a headphone cue system to hear each other. I think you are discovering why garages are not used much for acoustic recordings. Sorry I must be brief but I presently have a ton of work on my plate.

I had this exact scenario in my audio class in a form of a predone project...two overheads, snare and kick mic, two piano microphones, and condensor on bass if it suits you, do it!