Hmmmm. Very similar to the Decware designs.

The ASC ones are about the same price but not as elaborate of a design. They were in maple for that price too. I think that is about the price for rear wall diffusion, $1000. But when you consider what your willing to pay for a 002 that is crap in a couple years or sh#tty knock off mics and pres, it's a great deal. The diffuser will last forever or at least until someone comes along and markets the 6 channel room phase modulating control room modeler.....Fats

I found a personal line on the styrene Skyline style (those big deep ones) for $90, plus shipping. I think those would be the way to go.
I also got a price on the auralex metrofusers, they are $11 and some change each.

With the plastic diffusers you lose effectiveness at mid and lower frequencies. They are only effective in the treble range. No mass. It's important to diffuse mid range also. Use some of the ridged fiberglass that was mentioned (by Eric Best ).

"frequencies above 125hz can be absorbed by 4" of Owens-Corning 703 rigid fiberglass"

Cut the fiberglass to fit in the cavity snugly thereby increasing the mass of the diffuser. …….Fats

I finally got all my gear interfaced and hooked up in my living room. Speakers placed and wired through an x-former switcher and power amp hooked up. All the outboard is wired and The 2 Mackies are ready to go with all the inzanouts and inserts wired to patch bays. I played some CeeDees and some vinyl yesterday, walking around the room (14'x19'x7'7") I was surprised at how good the room sounds without any treatments. No bad reflections, no bass hot spots. It's actually useable. One of the 19' walls is mostly glass with a curtain over it. Carpet on the floor and 2 futon chairs for bass trapping! Could one of you guys with a room program run those dimensions for me and see what's there? ..............Thanks Fats

Fats, other than the low room volume of 2085 cu ft, there is a 3rd harmonic of width and a 4th harmonic of length that are only 2 hZ apart (should be at least 5) - Bonello distribution of all modes looks good. The curtain apparently is handling some of the highs off the glass.

Sounds like you got sorta lucky - my living room isn't symmetrical in ANY dimension without something getting in the way. Short way listening there's a wood stove in the (not quite) middle, and long way one possible spkr location is solid, the other opens into the kitchen and a hallway.

I gave up long ago trying to win the war between (his) acoustics and (her) aesthetics, now I have my area and she everything else (fair trade, actually)

Happy vibes... Steve

Steve,
Yeah the back 1/4 of the rear wall in my room opens to the dinning area and entrance foyer too. But I think it's actually trapping off some extra sound pressure from the room. I think I got lucky. I'm going to get a pink noise CD and run some sound pressure checks. I'll put some corner traps, just to be on the safe side and I need maybe some 2" foam on the wall in front of the mix station, I can hear a slight reflection that is interfering with the phantom center imaging...other than that I think I lucked out! Thanks Steve, ....Fats

Houston, I think we have a problem... :mad:

Well, I have been working on finalizing a mix in my newly acoustically treated "studio", and the mixes are sounding pretty bad outside of the studio. The problem is the bass. My new mixes are soooooo bass heavy, it is obnoxious! After hearing my latest mix, I went back in the studio to see if I could fix it (grumbling and cussing all the way...!), and *re-mixed* one of the songs to reduce the bass a bit...guess what??? It was *still* way too bass heavy outside of the studio! Grrrrrr.... :mad:

I am guessing that it could be due to either one or two things (or *both*!!!):

1) My ears are used to hearing my mixes through my monitors a certain way, and now I need to re-adjust my ears to the new sound of the room.

2) My room is now *too* dead.

I have the entire front wall covered (behind the mixer), and the corners trapped. The back wall and ceiling are completely untreated. Should I remove *some* of the tiles from the front wall? Add the diffusion I keep threatening to add?

Help!!!

"First off, subjectively, the room sounds just *fantastic*!!! I am soooo happy!!! There is still some more work to be done, but it is amazing what a difference it makes!!! I can't believe I waited *this* long to do this!" -

Huh???!!?!

OK, James, I've just been thru this whole thread (all 4 pages) and not once were any components/SPL's/reference CD's listed.

Here's the list of what we need in order to fix this:

1. What speakers/amp are you using?

1a. What is the rest of the signal path between the source and speakers,

2. What distances are speakers from walls/corners, what settings (if any) on speakers if they're powered,

3. What were you listening to when you made the above quoted statement, and does it STILL sound wonderful,

4. Is there a subwoofer involved, and if so where is it,

5. What SPL are you mixing at (VERY IMPORTANT), and how/where measured, (Radio Shack analog SPL meter, ($45 or so) set @ "C" weighting, fast response, 85 db level w/peaks to about 90 is ideal)

6. Are you listening with "fresh ears", or after a day at the iron foundry without ear plugs ?

We need ALL the answers to the above just to get started - don't remove any foam or move anything around until we have a baseline set of conditions to work from.

If you don't already have the SPL meter, don't bother shopping around for a different one - anything else is going to skew the results and cost 10 TIMES as much. The RS meter, while not precisely level calibrated, is close enough for all but critical perfectionist use. DO NOT, I repeat NOT, adjust the little "calibrate" screw, EVER, unless you have a friend with a $$$$ B & K SPL meter calibrator handy. I really wish they had put that little screw INSIDE the meter, accessible only with tools...

Anyway, check ALL the above, post back with results/info and we'll go again.

Might be better if you start a new thread, so we know which page to start with... Steve

DH,
Everything Steve said is correct! The Rado Shack meter is a great inexpensive audio tool. Low end will return to the room when you add diffusion. I think I mentioned that before. Don't freak out….yet! It's only half time. Where is your listening position? Are you listening at the point where the foam stops and the walls are untreated? Everything in front of you should be foam everything in back of you should not. This includes the walls on your sides. Looking back at the whole thread, I do not see a references to your doing anything with the side walls. If you haven't done any treatments on these I would bet that the hi frequencies are being reflected and reinforced to a point that your turning them down / attenuating them too much. This fits with what your first impressions were after you put up the foam.

It is amazing to go back and listen to some of my older mixes now, and hear how heavy they are in the higher frequencies! Weird! Now that a lot of the lower/mid stuff is being absorbed, the highs are *really* high! DH

The low end may be fine, it could be the highs need some additional attenuation / diffusion. I agree with Steve that you need to work with speaker placement and do some more spl / test tone runs to see exactly what's going on. I'll say this, it's much better to be in a position of attenuated lows rather that boosted!. We'll get you there.... listen to some of your favorite music, get used to the way the room sounds...you may be correct in your assumption regarding "ear memory"....Fats

OK...it may be best to start a new thread on this, but I at least want to address the latest set of questions here first...

"First off, subjectively, the room sounds just *fantastic*!!! I am soooo happy!!! There is still some more work to be done, but it is amazing what a difference it makes!!! I can't believe I waited *this* long to do this!" -

Huh???!!?!

It *does* sound great!!! It just does not translate well outside of the room. I will admit that I have not put in any reference CDs...I know...I know...I need to spend more time doing this. I have read some posts here that say that some of you do it daily to set up a reference point. Obviously, I need to start doing this, or at least do it periodically as I am mixing.

As soon as I finished mixing some of my latest projects, I burned a CD and took them upstairs to check out on the home stereo...immediately, I knew I was in trouble. I verified this in the car and on my Walkman. The bass was overpowering everything, and masking the whole rhythm section.

OK, James, I've just been thru this whole thread (all 4 pages) and not once were any components/SPL's/reference CD's listed.

Here's the list of what we need in order to fix this:

1. What speakers/amp are you using?

I already mentioned the reference CDs...I know I am a bad boy. Lesson learned.

Speakers: Event 20/20 bas (bi-amped). There is a bass and a treble attenuation pot, but they are currently set to "zero". No Sub-woofer.

1a. What is the rest of the signal path between the source and speakers,

Computer -> Layla/24 PCI card -> Peavy mixer -> Main outs on Peavy -> Monitors

(same setup I have used for a couple of years). And yes, I know the Peavy sucks...I have been cruising Ebay for the last month trying to find a good deal on a better mixer (Allen & Heath Wiz 16:2, for example).

2. What distances are speakers from walls/corners, what settings (if any) on speakers if they're powered,

Speakers are (officially now, I just measured!) 22 inches from the side walls/corners, and 14 inches from the back wall, I did recently move them closer to the wall, they were almost 2 feet from the back wall when I first did the foam. They are sitting on monitor pedestals 44" high. I also just went down and rechecked the settings, everything is flat (the HF trim and LF trim, the input gain is set at "5 out of 10" for both speakers).

3. What were you listening to when you made the above quoted statement, and does it STILL sound wonderful,

I was listening to my mixes, and yes it still does sound wonderful. I now realize how stupid that statement sounds now...how can I say my mixes sound wonderful without something to compare them to...like I said above, "lesson learned". I do have a few songs that I have ripped to my HD from a couple of CDs, and I have listened to them since I did the room, but I wasn't really taking a critical listen. If I remember, they sounded "fine"...I sure didn't notice any *huge* glaring problem.

Fats quoted a statement I made about me going back and listening to some of my old mixes, and how they were all really strong in the high frequencies...interesting comment don't you think? They sounded fine before, and also travelled well...Hmmmm...this should have been a big red flare right in front of my eyes. Something was fishy...

4. Is there a subwoofer involved, and if so where is it,

No subwoofer.

5. What SPL are you mixing at (VERY IMPORTANT), and how/where measured, (Radio Shack analog SPL meter, ($45 or so) set @ "C" weighting, fast response, 85 db level w/peaks to about 90 is ideal)

No clue here. I have heard that 85 dB is the correct listening level, and I would say that I normally mix at *less* than 85, however lately, I have been making a conscious effort to listen at a louder level, but I obviously have no clue the actual SPL. I will go out and buy one of those Radio Shack meters...I was *just* looking at them about 2 weeks ago when I was in there...funny you should mention that...get the analog one you say, eh? They also have the one with the digital read out...don't you like that one, or is it just more expensive for no good reason?

6. Are you listening with "fresh ears", or after a day at the iron foundry without ear plugs ?

Hehe...I *love* it! Iron factory!!! :)

I usually mix with fresh ears. I learned that lesson a long time ago as a musician...

I will now get to Fat's questions...

OK Fats...now to your questions....

(nice new avatar btw... :) )

DH,
Everything Steve said is correct! The Rado Shack meter is a great inexpensive audio tool. Low end will return to the room when you add diffusion. I think I mentioned that before. Don't freak out….yet! It's only half time. Where is your listening position? Are you listening at the point where the foam stops and the walls are untreated? Everything in front of you should be foam everything in back of you should not. This includes the walls on your sides. Looking back at the whole thread, I do not see a references to your doing anything with the side walls. If you haven't done any treatments on these I would bet that the hi frequencies are being reflected and reinforced to a point that your turning them down / attenuating them too much. This fits with what your first impressions were after you put up the foam.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing to go back and listen to some of my older mixes now, and hear how heavy they are in the higher frequencies! Weird! Now that a lot of the lower/mid stuff is being absorbed, the highs are *really* high! DH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no foam on the side walls or ceiling (yet). My listening postition is at that equalateral triangle postion (head, monitor, monitor).

I understand your comment about me possibly attenuating the highs instead of boosting the lows, especially with my new mixes, but that would not make sense when going back and listening to my older mixes. They all traveled well outside of the studio, and sounded fine before. They now sound high-frequency heavy, and almost "tinny". I have not adjusted anything on them since they were "completed" before treating the room.

It is also interesting now to go back and look at the RTA readings...everything below 125 Hz had to be boosted by the EQ to get the room flat.

I am worried about the diffusion situation, since there is no way I can afford $1000 or more on some of that high-level diffusion that has been talked about in this thread. I am looking at the cheaper Auralex plastic stuff...the basic diffusers or the Metro Diffusers...that is about the extent of my budget at this point.

The low end may be fine, it could be the highs need some additional attenuation / diffusion. I agree with Steve that you need to work with speaker placement and do some more spl / test tone runs to see exactly what's going on. I'll say this, it's much better to be in a position of attenuated lows rather that boosted!. We'll get you there.... listen to some of your favorite music, get used to the way the room sounds...you may be correct in your assumption regarding "ear memory"....Fats

I did actually get a mix to sound good outside of the room, but the bass was really attenuated, beyond what I felt sounded good in the studio. This new mix sounded great (3rd try...Grrrr...) on the home stereo and in the car. I have not even thought about attempting to give it my "quickie mastering" treatment...I would be just guessing at what sounded good.

This mix that sounded good did not have any high end boost to compensate, only low end attenuation. It now sounds *much* better on other systems, maybe a bit "muddy" in the lower mids (250 - 350ish?), but I usually can master that out if I have to, although it would nice to take care of it in the mix first.

I am kind of nervous to try anything, not knowing where it will lead me...

Sorry to be such a pain guys...and thanks again as usual for all your help!

DH,
I think you may be boosting lows to compensate for the highs being more apparent.
Get some foam on the side walls and above you. This is part of the L.E.D.E.(live end, dead end) thing. I asked;

"Are you listening at the point where the foam stops and the walls are untreated? Everything in front of you should be foam everything in back of you should not. This includes the walls on your sides."

Then I said;

"I would bet that the high frequencies are being reflected and reinforced to a point that your turning them down / attenuating them too much. This fits with what your first impressions were after you put up the foam"

You may be boosting bass to compensate instead of cutting the mids and highs. Either way it's apparent the room isn't flat yet. Like I said, run the RTA and let me know what you see now….Fats

Hey Fats...thanks, yeah, I do not have any foam up on the side walls, but it wouldn't be too difficult to do, and will be much easier than the work I have already done!

My comments earlier were based on work I did *before* I put up any foam. When I go back and listen to them now, they sound really "tinny", and very "edgy" with high frequencies. Yet these same mixes sounded fine before the foam,

and here is the important part:

they sound fine outside of the studio...not tinny at all.

With these mixes, I was not compensating for the foam, since there was none!

Anyway...I will get more foam for the side walls and ceiling, and see what happens. I will also try another RTA reading, and see what comes up.

Thanks again!

"get the analog one you say, eh? They also have the one with the digital read out...don't you like that one, or is it just more expensive for no good reason?" -

James, I personally have always had problems relating to digital meters. I'm more used to the ballistics of analog meters, and can more easily tell what the average reading is without having to mentally average 20 or 30 exact, quickly changing, digital numbers. With Analog meters, you can look quickly and get an instant average value. Also, the cost factor -

One more question - did you mention what you have on the floor of your room? Carpet, parquet, gravel, what?

You really need to get levels under control and pick several commercial CD releases that are widely noted for their great mixes/sound quality.

Keep in mind that the human ear, besides not being a flat transducer under the best of conditions, has absolutely no way of determining the exact sound pressure level applied to it other than either inaudibility or pain. We get used to whatever level of sound we hear, including levels that will cause permanent damage, and then it no longer seems loud. The SPL meter is the ONLY way to ensure that you're at a level that translates, a level that's constant, and one that won't cause hearing damage.

We also need to know more about your home and car listening setups - do you favor subs/pumping bass, are your home speakers sitting on the floor in corners or away from walls on pedestals, etc - in other words, all the stuff that I asked about the studio, including speaker size, type, etc, tone control settings, room size/shape/materials/furniture, anything that could change the sound in any way. Only then can we get an idea of the conditions you're dealing with, and even that isn't nearly as good as a trip to your world for a firsthand experience.

I know this seems like a lot of work, but I've been told by some people that my stuff was too bass-heavy, and when I heard normal CD's on their system I thought their tweeters were blown - Some people turn the bass all the way up and the treble down, then when they hear a balanced mix that has some of everything they think it's too heavy.

Doing this all by remote control is a lot like the story of the 3 blind men describing the elephant...

If the Peavey mixer isn't broken, I don't think it would contribute much (if any) to the tonality problem, as long as it doesn't have one of those built-in "graph-fuck" EQ's in the path - It just might not be as transparent as a higher order mixer.

When you get the SPL meter and some CD's picked out (Donald Fagen's Nightfly CD is a good balanced reference for me - duh...) Al DiMeola's Kiss My Axe has a good range bottom to top too... Between the CD's and a new RTA check, you should be able to tell what's going on with the room.

Maybe it's best to just keep everything right here, just to maintain continuity - Let us know when you have some more results to decipher... Steve

OK...thanks...I'll do some more work, and post again. I'll pick up an SPL meter and some reference CDs, put up some more foam, check the RTA again, etc.

BTW...the floor is carpeted.

James, I wouldn't go out and buy any more foam til more info is available - you may be able to just move some of what you already have.

The lack of bass in the room that's causing you to make "boombox mixes" may be over-absorption of lows (not real likely) or, more likely, either the speakers or you sitting in a node (cancellation area)

To find out if this is the case, once you get the SPL set @ 85-90 and a CD on that sounds good in your other environments, you should walk around the room while listening, alternately lowering your head to find out whether you just happened to locate yourself in a "bass vacuum" - You may have to relocate the entire mix area somewhat in order to get away from this.

One reason your mixes sound better in the room now (aside from low bass levels) is that the foam is killing the early reflections in the mid/highs that muddy the stereo image.

Once you're using the SPL meter and Ref CD's, the procedure I'd use is to move your head around, back and forth, til you get some bass back - then, relocate the speakers to re-establish the nearfield triangle, moving whatever is necessary to accomplish this, and re-check everything.

I know you didn't want to hear this - there seems to be an unwritten law that says ergonomics and acoustics will always be at war with each other.

The good news is, once you find that sweet spot it won't move and you can concentrate on other stuff for a change.

If you can't find a spot, it is possible that you have too much low absorption in the front of the room (I would be surprised) - If you do, you may need to cut down on the 4" stuff - the thinner foam won't reach down as far and shouldn't affect freq's below about 400.

Can't think of anything else right now, keep us posted... Steve

DH,
I agree with Steve about much of what he said but I really doubt that you are over absorbing the low end. That's very hard to do with an 8' ceiling... Bass nulls could be the problem, especially if your speakers and you are sitting at the half way point (4'). The good new is if you want to add some lows to the system you may try moving your speakers back towards the wall. Boundary effect wills add some low response. Many studios place their mains in the corners, by design, despite what has been said in this thread about keeping them 3' away from any boundary. Low ceiling rooms are very problematic to get tuned correctly but I think we can get you there....I once personally spoke with Chips Davis, the guy who conceived the idea of "Live End, Dead End" when I was designing my big room and he told me it is very important to foam /absorb everything in front and on your sides….As Steve said, go get the meter and hook up the RTA and run some test tones and pink noise through the system and take a look at what you've got. Until you get that accomplished, were all working in the dark here....I think your going to find that the mids and highs are being reflected and reinforced ……I just can't see the lows being over absorbed in the room you described! If they are, you got some GOOD FREAKIN' FOAM!……….Fats

Got the SPL meter today, and will be working on it (Radio Shack analog meter 33-2050). I assume that I am going to set it on "C weighting" rather than "A weighting" based on the user's manual description...

I am also going to "draw" a basic schematic of my room and post a picture or 2 to give you guys an idea of what we are dealing with here...

Thanks for all the advice...

DH,
I'll keep an eye on th' 'puter so I can reply asap. Anticipatorily Yours Fats! :D

Yeah James, "C" is the ticket. Actually, for the levels best suited for mixing (85) "B" weighting is a little better, but you have to spend about $1500 or so to find a meter that even has that (at least, I've not seen any cheaper yet)

Soooo, "C" weighting, fast response (usually) 85 dB with peaks to about 90, meter sort of under your chin (closest to your ears that you can actually read)

Since the electret in the RS meter is omni, I've found that it doesn't make a noticeable difference which way it's pointing, so you can hold it right in front of your face with the meter readable;

Does your RTA have the capability of outputting a sine wave at selectable frequencies, or just pink noise? Just curious...

Also, can you describe the important details (same as asked for studio) regarding your home stereo (placement, speaker type/size, room size, wall/ceiling/floor treatments, heavy or light furniture, etc? This will help in determining which environment is causing which problems.

Also, you mentioned the same problems with listening on a CD Walkman - bass boost on, any tone control, what?

Maybe when you get a chance, if you could list ALL the characteristics of EACH environment, AND the tests (in detail)you ran in each, in one post it would make it easier to hone in on things... Steve

OK guys, one step at a time...

Here is a link to a web page that I just put up with a couple of pictures of the studio foam treatment. I have also posted a really basic schematic of the room layout, furniture, etc.

http://home.insightbb.com/~helixstudios/

Go to the "Studio Photos" page.

This will at least give you a better idea of the studio layout. I will post another message later with the results of the latest RTA run, and the subjective results of listening at 85 dB to reference CDs. Also, I will post all of my listening environments...

DH,
You're not going to like this. Your set up is nowhere near symmetrical. That closet to the left is a major problem. The wall to the right presents problems also. I would place the console where the bookshelf at the right is and shoot the room lengthwise. The staircase at the rear is a built in diffuser of sorts. Use it to your advantage. Where is the other 1/3 of the bass traps? You should also treat the ceiling and the walls at the side. I don't see any way around that. I am positive that you have some major bass null modes going on after seeing the picks and the diagram. Another approach would be to leave the set up as it is and continue the boundary started by the closet to the left and build a wall. This would give you an 11' X12" control room. You could use the rest of the room as a tracking room. Closet could act as an iso booth for an amp ....... Fats

James, is that floorplan on your site the way things are now? I thought you had relocated the mix position to the end where the bookshelf is located.

If that layout is current, you're not gonna like what I have to say...

First, the uneven RTA response is a given with that layout - the left side (as you're facing the speakers) is a perfect absorber, at least until you get the reflections back from the stairwell end of the room, while the right side is an untreated wall, complete with bass buildup. Also, rear reflections will be coming back 'way too soon for clarity. Looks like about 13 feet round trip from your head, off the rear wall, and back to your head - this is just over HALF the minimum for early reflections off the back wall NOT to cause serious comb filtering and confusing of the stereo image. (You need at least 22 ms, or about 25 feet, head-to-back wall-to head round trip.)

Seeing this diagram, if it were me arranging things this is what I would do:

1. Put the mix desk where the "bookshelf" is, to the right of the current mix desk position, same distance from walls, centered on the 11' wall.

2. Since the CLOSET doesn't appear to be expendable, I would find a PAIR of TALL diffusors (or book cases with books) and place them "catty corner" in the corner made by the right hand wall of the closet, so that they are 45 degrees to the wall. On the non-closet side, place the other unit symmetrically, just as if there were a closet on that wall also. This is not ideal, but at least it would make things symmetrical.

3. Put the keyboard station to the right of the mix desk, where the couch is now.

4. Put the couch against the wall by the stairwell, since it looks too long to fit across the room where the closet is.

5. Move the desk to where the keyboard station now is. this will help balance the room on that side. Remember there will now be a 45 degree "diffusor" toward the mix area from the desk - see # 2 - remember, the goal here is symmetry - if you draw a horizontal line down the center of the long way of the room, there should be equal or similar entities across from each other down the length of that line.

6. Just in case you're not already there, here's the "I hate you Steve" part - Put just the bass traps in the corners (after taking down all your painstakingly placed other foam) and do the CD/SPL/RTA testing. Add sparingly until you get CD's/mixes to translate. Quit.

I know you didn't want to hear all that (I wouldn't either) but I know of no way to get a non-symmetrical space to sound right, period. That "Near Black Hole" area to the left of your current mix position will NEVER be fixable. (Unless you have a jackhammer, and wouldn't miss that wall on the right...)

If by some chance it was I who was responsible for the need for symmetry not being stressed enough, I am deeply sorry - I thought I had made it plain.

Don't hate me 'cause I'm right (arguable, as always), hate me 'cause it's YOU that's doing all the work instead o me...Empathetically, Steve

Well guys...thanks for your help, but after reading your posts, I have decided to quit recording and go to work at McDonald's..."Would you like to 'Super Size' that meal?" :)

I realize that your advice is right, and I actually did have the desk on the short wall for a while, and moved it back...

The part that really bothers me is the part where Steve said:

6. Just in case you're not already there, here's the "I hate you Steve" part - Put just the bass traps in the corners (after taking down all your painstakingly placed other foam) and do the CD/SPL/RTA testing. Add sparingly until you get CD's/mixes to translate. Quit.

You are right, that was the "I hate you Steve part"!!! :)

Thanks guys for the advice...I should be posting back in a week or so...

James, Fats and I have been almost totally on the same page here, I doubt that he realized what was going on before you posted the pix and plan either.

LEDE rooms are kind of older vogue, but still work. What I saw in your pix wasn't LEDE yet, although it could get there EXCEPT for that big black hole on the left...

From what I saw of the walls (where the pennant is hanging) you don't have enough absorption far enough back on the 11 foot wall to catch early reflections from the speakers off the side wall, even if there WAS a corresponding wall on the other side. I think that may be where most of the exaggerated brightness is coming from. The lack of bass is probably because the rest of the room, including the ell where the vocal booth is, is acting as a large trap for everything from bottom to top frequencies.

The only other way I could think of that might help your setup without moving nearly everything, is if you were to build an extension of the short wall of the closet; looking at the drawing on your site, it would need to go from the bottom right corner of the closet, across the room toward the keyboard station, to a point at least 3-4 feet behind your head when seated at the mix position. this would restore some symmetry, and allow you to finish checking out responses.

I would use this second approach only if you're tired, desperate, and can't stand the thought of moving all that foam - oh, wait, that's what you basically just said - OK, sleep on this for a day or two, re-read and re-draw things as I suggested, and re-evaluate - consider that without a symmetrical soundfield, you will either need to buy a copy of Don Quixote (read the "tilting at windmills" part) or give up.

Sooo, the least you need to do is build a 5 or 6 foot long wall (my second choice - yeah, I know, it ain't me having to do this) or redo things the long way as I suggested (best bet)

If it'll help you keep from getting too discouraged, my own studio is in piles in the middle of a floor I don't even want to keep, with about $8k left to spend just on gear, not counting building a real space, before it can even bleat pathetically - what little writing I've been able to do is with a workstation and cans, with guitars going either thru built-in acoustic pickups or thru an RP-2000 or Bass Pod Pro. Sometimes I look at my mics and try to remember what they're for... Steve

I have resigned myself to moving back to the short wall in the room, it is not as convenient as I would like it, I prefer the ergonomics the way it is now, but as you guys have pointed out on numerous occasions, ergonomics and acoustics have nothing to do with each other, in fact, they are more often than not mutually exclusice.

Moving the furniture around is not that big of a deal...a few hours. I have a dedicated 20 amp filtered circuit (4-outlet) behind the mixing desk now, that means 4 extension cords to the new location...yuck! Plus, the removing and regluing of all the foam...I learned a lot from the first application, so it will look lots better the second time around!

On top of all this, I have been wanting to build a new mixing desk anyway, maybe this is the time to do that while I am at it...lots to do...so little money/time...

With what your talking about the time involved, you could build a wall across that open stretch from the closet corner to what is currently your rear wall. Install a door, vola! a control room! Added benifit? An isolated tracking room. You will have to diffuse the beans out of the rear wall but that's the only drawback. A few 2 X 4's and some sheetrock or chipboard and your set...Fats

James, I think you're making the only practical decision you can under the circumstances. Did you follow the part about placement of diffusors/bookshelves in front of and across from the closet? I wasn't sure how clear I made that part. If you want, let me know what formats you can deal with for drawings and I'll try to get you a clearer picture.

I definitely know the feeling on your comment, "lots to do...so little money/time..." One of my favorites goes,"Life is the shit that happens to you while you're busy making plans". Same idea...

BTW, I'm still waiting on info about your home stereo - one other possibility that occurred to me is that maybe the lack of a sub is causing you to overcompensate really low bass, which shows up on phones or large speakers. The pre-treatment room may have boosted these freqs enough to keep you from overdoing them. Sometimes two wrongs come closer to making a right, than one right and one wrong can do... Steve

Fats, I was apparently in the middle of my post when you added yours - The only reason I didn't mention that idea (other than the partial wall), is that (for me, anyway) my current room is 11-1/2 by 21, and I've worked in a bedroom that's about 10 by 11 - the larger of the two is marginal for me, especially with more than two people in the room. The smaller room didn't work ergonomically at all, but wasn't too bad acoustically (bookshelves floor to ceiling across the rear) If the open vocal thing is working, I'd be really hesitant to suggest to James that he chop up the area that much.

James, don't listen to him - he's EVIL - EVIL, I tell ya...:=)

Seriously, that IS another option, but before I built a wall I'd hang a curtain there, and see how many times you had to brush against it or push it aside while you're working.

I personally (as do most people) prefer a larger volume room, the sound just isn't so pinched.

Still, except for modes at 140 and 280, an 11x12x8 room doesn't look too bad on the spreadsheet -

More later, just had a thought I need to check out... Steve

OK, I'm back - James, you said in a previous post, "They are sitting on monitor pedestals 44" high. " This, when referring to your 2020's -

Now, will you take a tape measure to your room and measure the distance from floor to center of woofer, and likewise the ceiling? I'll bet you're within about 2" or less of dead center top-to-bottom. If so, try raising or lowering (whichever is easier, probably raising) your speakers by about 8-10 inches and listening again. (use some encyclopedias, or something equally solid)

I'm thinking that at least part of your bass-shyness is that your woofers are in a bass node vertically. This would also make the response off at all other harmonics of the height of the room, some hot, some cold.

Check it out, I hope I'm right... Steve

Fats...building the wall is such a permanent solution, that I would reall rather not do that unless I was left w/o any other choice, although you are right in that it would be nice for other reasons. I am concerned about the distance behind my head that Knightfly mentioned, but like you said, diffusion would probably help there...

Sometimes two wrongs come closer to making a right, than one right and one wrong can do...

Whoa! Getting philosophical now!!! :) I think I understand your comments about the bookcases in the corners, "kitty cornered" by the closet, and then a matching angle on the long wall...

Fats...your suggestion about putting in a wall is not a bad idea to consider for someday, but I still think the desk in the other orientation will be better suffice...for either situation (wall or no wall).

I talked to my wife about the move already tonight, and she says she'll help me with some of the furniture after the kids go to bed if she's not too tired...

I was so excited there for a while thinking that I was making progress, and I guess I was, just *slowly*! :) I should have drawn out the room for you guys earlier, that would have saved us all alot of headaches...

Anyway, I really appreciate you guys sticking with me on this for so long...you guys really rock!

James, back up a notch - you were posting the same time I was, see whatcha think... Steve

Yeah I know it's a small space but it is the only way I see of getting some true symmetry. You would need to diffuse and absorb the beans out of it but as I said, I don't see anything else that can work, unless you can demolish that closet. I would be careful about knocking out walls in the basement however. Just be sure they are not load bearing...."Evil" Fats

Hey, Fats, just kidding about the whole "EVIL" thang, kinda bit me in the ass, 'cause now I gotta find a personal descriptor, and I can't spel Die-Uh-Ball-Ickul... (Not that James'd defend either one of us right now...)

Sooo, didja look at the purty pitchers and see what I meant about the vertical node? Sure looks like 44" pedestals and 8" woofs get pretty close to the center of an 8' dimension... DiaBolical (dB fer short...)

James, a little light reading while you rest up for moving day...

http://www.customaudio.freeserve.co.uk/techfrmset.htm

Sure, these guys are wanting to sell you stuff, but there is an excellent basic education here, specifically the first few pages as relates to your situation... Steve

OK...yeah I was posting at the same time you were Steve, and never would've seen that post if you hadn't warned me...well...maybe I should have said "told me", or "alerted me"...nah..."warned me" works just fine!!! hehe :)

OK, the speaker pedestals...I'm not sure where the hell I got the 44" height pedestal figure (???) :D I think I am really being forced to concentrate on mixes now, and listen critically to all that is happening, so this room acoustic issue has ultimately been a good thing. I think it is easy to get into a rut and keep doing the same thing over and over and you end up in this endless pattern of "sameness". I have really been inspired to do some of my most creative work on this project...adding guitar and keyboard parts...I added a whole bridge to one song, vocals and all! (We will need to re-record the vocals to match the voice of their lead vocalist, but the song just rocks!!!) They have given me complete free reign over this project...engineering and production (someone else will master).

I was having some computer problems earlier, but those seem to have been resolved, and I just got a couple of new mics (Rode NT5's - matched pair)...all is great in Helix land! I'd rather be working on music right now than rooms, but I understand the need, and can see the benefit. This is something I have been putting off for a very long time. Things are really on a roll right now muscially, and I am anxious to take advantage of the high tide while it is here! Hopefully we'll get the room resolved this week, and I can get back to focussing on the music!

Thanks again guys!

(I'll post another drawing of the new plan for the room later today to get your opinions.)

Steve, that was a *great* link by the way...I added it to my favorites and browsed it for a long time. I plan on taking some more time later for some more light reading! Lots of great info! Thanks!

James, no prob on the link, I had forgotten (a) how germaine it was to your project, and (2) where I had filed it (doh!)

Been looking (spelled D-R-O-O-L-I-N-G) at those Rode matched pairs myself - got a pair of Oktavas (not the matched pair) but want something a little better for O-heads/AcGtr, etc, can't beat the price, really good reviews, etc...

On the speakers, unfortunately (what's new) down is the direction they may need to go. You are still awfully close to dead center vertically. If we were closer, you could just send me the pedestals and I'd cut and re-weld them, no biggie. (They ARE steel, right?) If you raise the speakers, they would have to go a LOT higher, and then most likely be aimed DOWN so that the baffle board just above the woof is perpendicular to a line from that point to your ears. Slanting nearfields is kind of a two-edged sword - having them high and slanted down can improve on early reflections off the mixer/desk surface, but figuring out ways of mounting them without having to use a cleat in front (bad for diffraction, you want nothing sticking out further than the baffle) can be fun.

What you need for speaker height is to be as far away from nodes as possible. IF you take the 90.5" distance from floor to ceiling and divide it by 2, 3, 4, 5, and possibly 6, and place the woofers as far away from any of those heights as possible, you should have no nodal problems vertically. This means, for example, that 45.25" is an absolute NO-NO, and they should be at least 8" AWAY from that dimension if possible. If your pedestals are steel, I would check around a couple of welding/metal fab shops to see what they would charge to shorten them. Measure your setup to see if you could get away with lowering the center of the woof to about 37" - that should get them away from ANY detrimental nodes.

BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING DRASTIC LIKE CUTTING YOUR PEDESTALS, I would get everything else in place and experiment with other ways of lowering the speakers, such as HUGE stacks of books, something as solid as possible so the speakers can't rock due to woofer movement (causes phasing between woof and tweet) and find a height that works well. THEN, and only then, would I have the pedestals modified to that height...

Keep in mind this universally accepted and very useful trick during all this - ANY surface that is within 10-11 feet of your head that you could place a mirror flat against and see either speaker in the mirror when your head is in mix position, needs to be absorbed or diffused. This includes floors AND ceilings, as well as console surfaces, sides of CRT's, ANYTHING.

As far as the multi-purpose thing, I would suggest separate areas within the room as much as possible. Since your wife needs access to desk/bookshelves and the kids need access to the Game Center/couch, and YOU need symmetry with diffusion at the rear, from what I can see here's a tentative plan -

Put her two bookcases against the stairwell, rotating her desk if necessary - that way, she could just swivel around in her chair to reach anything on at least one shelf - even the farthest one would be closer to her than it is now. This has the added benefit of giving you some diffusion on that wall. It has another added benefit of allowing her to gaze lovingly at your back while you craft yet another reason for Chris Lord Alge to slit his wrists in envy... :=)

Put the couch and game center in the area at the foot of the stairs, AWAY from your recording stuff. Your mix area should be gently (but firmly) off limits unless your kids are old enough to be using it. (At which point I would recommend you move while they're at school, and leave no forwarding address) (Just kidding)

Rotate your mix desk, speakers, and rack 90 degrees clockwise, making SURE that the speakers are NOT at horizontal points that are evenly divided by 3, along the end wall. (Since that wall is 132", having the speakers within about 8" of a point 44" from each side wall would be REALLY BAD. Place them either 36" from side walls or 52", but NOT in between those distances. Height requirements still same as above.

Move the keyboard station to the right side of the mix desk, where you can just rotate in your chair and play a key part. If you have some smaller speakers you may want a stereo pair over the keys for reference, in case you do real-time panning for effect while you play a part, or??

Having only your comments and the pix, that would be my recommendation. It should keep everything handy for your wife, the kids out of your studio area, the acoustics taken into consideration, and a reasonably ergonomic composition area for you.

James, did I understand you to say that EACH outlet in a 4-plex is on a SEPARATE breaker? Is each circuit on the same PHASE of your panel? I run ALL the electronics in my studio off ONE 20 amp circuit thru a large (1400 VA) UPS (winters here are quite breezy, to understate it)and have never had more than about 10 amp draw with everything on (real amps, not labels added up)sooo, unless I'm missing something you should only have to extend ONE outlet if you have power strips behind your gear...

In my studio (when it actually WAS one) I had kind of a "jet cockpit" approach which worked well for "one man banding" - I could sit in the chair and just rotate to play electronic drumkit, use mixer, play keys, or grab a guitar and have a floor box (RP-10, RP-2000) right under foot. Naturally, the mix desk took priority - I'm designing a new, more ergonomic, and larger (4 x 8)desk that will house 4 19" flat panel displays, 3 nearfields (all equidistant from my head on curved bridge), and two 20" slope front, tilt-out racks under the sides(custom built by me) - talk about hair-tearing decisions...

Gotta go for now, I hope some of my ramblings can be helpful instead of just causing you more work... Steve

OK...Whew! Long post to answer with lots of stuff in there!

1) The NT5's rock! I am really thrilled so far! I bought a couple of multiple mic mounts so I can get an X/Y stereo setup. Pretty cool!

2) I am going to leave the monitors "as-is" for the time being, as you mentioned until everything else gets in place, however, this statement confuses me:

Rotate your mix desk, speakers, and rack 90 degrees clockwise, making SURE that the speakers are NOT at horizontal points that are evenly divided by 3, along the end wall. (Since that wall is 132", having the speakers within about 8" of a point 44" from each side wall would be REALLY BAD. Place them either 36" from side walls or 52", but NOT in between those distances. Height requirements still same as above.

What do you mean by "horizontal points that are evenly divided by 3"? I am sorry to be dense, but I don't understand that last comment. :) (although if they were female and cute enough, I wouldn't mind too much, but I'm sure my wife would have a different opinion! ;) Small monitors on the keys would be really nice though!

My basement still looks the same since Wednesday night! Hehe...we haven't had a chance to do any more since then...this weekend is supposed to be really nice and dry for Saturday, so I have plans to get my yard wrapped up for the winter (lawn furniture stored, potted plants pulled up, leaves raked, hoses and sprinklers stored, etc....this is the MidWest, and Winter's just around the corner!)that leaves us Sunday to try once again to get things setup...

James, here's something bizarre (from me, anyway) a less-than-two-page post...(hehehehe)

What I meant about the divisible by 3 statement:
when you move your mix desk to the 11' wall on the right of where it is now, the total length of that wall is 132" (11 feet) - when you place your monitors, they should NOT be within about 8" of a point that is 1/3 the distance between the left and right walls, as you would be sitting at the new mix location facing the speakers. When you set up your new equilateral triangle (head, two speakers) the speakers should not be located at points that are 1/3 or 2/3 the distance from the left side wall to the right side wall. These 1/3 points will be at antinodes (high SPL points) of the third harmonic of the distance from left wall to right wall (as you face the desk) so would give uneven bass response, in this case a peak at 154 hZ.

Yeah, the Linda Blair way is right. Some kind of treatment (depending on whether front or back ANYWHERE the mirror would reflect either speaker if your head had no rotation limits.

KDS now has a 19" flatscreen for about $699, but I may go for just two (one per 'puter) and two 27" TV monitors, for stuff like onscreen faders that don't need to be hi-res. The matrox cards let you use almost anything that makes a picture, so we'll see how budgets disintegrate...

three nearfields - left, center, right of 5.1 surround. The other two on pedestals at 110 degrees from front center.

Gotta go to work now, I'll check back tonight and, if necessary, find a clearer way to state the dimension thing. Later... Steve