I used gaff tape to mount boundary mics to walls. The plate of a Crown PZM made it easy. For mobile use you could tape them back to back and contrive some sort of mounting rig. Some of the other types might need double sided tape, though I think they might have keyhole mounts.

dvdhawk, post: 452484, member: 36047 wrote: Which makes you get all philosophical, and wonder, if a decca tree falls in the forest....

Awesome post.

From ~1985:

New purchase: Astatic Blue Line 4 vocal cardioid mic.

Bright sound. Dropped by my kids too probably. The capsule is loose and there is lots of room for it to rattle around inside. The foam is also displaced.

New purchase: Astatic Blue Line 34 instrument cardioid mic.

Bright sound. One of them has a loose capsule but there is little room for it to rattle.

I cannot figure out how to open them and suspect they may be all assembled with glue. My neighbor suggested there may be a screw behind the XLR. I tried removing one of the set screws and could not really budge the XLR. That was a really long time ago.

I was targeting these 3 mics to NOS, or maybe Decca tree eventually, or something more suited to cardioid maybe. I cannot hang them in front of a guitar speaker. Even if they could take the dBs two of them would rattle. I want large separation to convey sense of space to the recording.

I think the Astatics are an historical anomaly. They were my first microphone purchase. Astatic seems to have consolidated into communications mics and there is no mention anywhere online I can find of these particular models except trademark filings. I threw away all the packaging and brochure, but if memory serves there was not much to see anyway. These were really cheap, about $30 each I think, maybe $50. Then again maybe that was not so cheap in 1985.

I tried doing a few guitar recordings with these mics when I first got them and hated the sound. I tried singing and frightened everyone with the sound of my voice including me. I recorded my original tunes with them as 'proof of concept' but my chops and education just were not there. Now I have cervical degeneration and it is hard to do anything, even hold a guitar, so stopped trying and went back to the physical therapy instead. Maybe later.

I tried the XY last week and hated the sound. They are all scratched up from kicking around in my living space unused for 3 decades, but now that I actually care about them again I am storing them in my gig bag wrapped in old socks.

EV671A

I have used this once recently to mic hats. It sounded fabulous but the sensitivity is a little low. I also used it for talkback at a complicated gig once.

The switch is broken in so it cannot be turned off accidentally. Apparently someone actually used it regularly once upon a time. When I first got this mic I thought it was accidentally broken. I only learned about deliberately breaking the switch a few years ago.

I have no idea how old this mic is. This was given to me by an amazing hoarder in 1985 same time frame as when I bought the Astatics. This diminutive 70 year old could easily pick me up and carry me across a football field. He ran those walk-behind Graveley tractors to plow his driveway and till his garden and he split wood plus did construction and electrical. His wife began the first natural foods store in New Hampshire. I did all sorts of plumbing, electrical, everything with him. He was licensed electrician and had a huge 45 degree dipole hanging across his yard with one end on the tower next to the house gable and the other on the shop suspended from a long roof-mounted pole.

We spent probably 25% of my time re-organizing and filtering a barn (three stories), a shop (three stories), a house (3 stories), and a sauna (attic space) crammed with everything you could imagine. There was iron pipe and other larger things scattered around the yard in unobtrusive locations also (large New England farm house/homestead). Fruit trees, garden, penned animals, real nice place, natural and wild looking plus antique all over New England cozy feel to the place. It felt safe there and everybody in town new him. All of us got roped into re-organizing his stuff eventually. It was impossible to avoid it if you knew him unless you were born without arms.

He had a direct line to the operator of the local dump. If you needed an attachment for your old Electrolux, he had a dozen or more to choose from, all sorted and hanging in the loft of the barn next to the stall of stacked lumber on shelves and the spare dining tables/chairs. He was always pushing this stuff on people and everyone came to him for odd things they needed. There were boxes jars cans and crates of loose screws and nuts hanging around, all taken out of things that his students at a rehabilitation center disassembled, plus he kept all the components they took out if they had value.

I cannot recall how many times he showed me some strange looking item and launched a historical narrative. He had maybe 4 shelves 4' long packed with vacuum tubes of every type imaginable including radio power tubes. Every time he visited he had a gift for everyone taken from his stash.

This was better than Home Depot and Fry's combined. I built a 4 channel mixing board and a video game chip synthesizer test circuit completely from his collection, screws, wire, tools to assemble it, stereo reverb spring, modular amplifiers, tons and tons of potentiometers, everything. All I had to do was rip the components out of things like military grade oscilloscopes and power supplies and if I got a cheap potentiometer by mistake I just swapped it out with another without the scratchiness that was bought with tax dollars instead.

He gave me a set of electrician's tools and boxes plus many others too. I built PA cabinets for my JBLs and Altecs using his junk console cabinets. I just cut the cabs off the consoles and they worked fine. Sturdy stuff from back when they used real wood for everything.

He gave me a Squier 15 and a Phase 90 too.

I used to hang out in one of the buildings and record my tunes, using an old 3 speed Realistic 2 track reel for tape delay and modded it for sound-with-sound using more of his surplus. I had a Wurlitzer electric piano and a Peavey T-40 that, if I had kept it, probably would have actually been worth something today, but it was TOO HEAVY! and the fret board was too long also. My guitar back then was trash but I have a Sigma acoustic with pickup and EQ now plus a Yamaha bass. The Yamaha 12 string is falling apart at the bridge now. Does not matter, I can barely play anyway.

I have been thinking the EV may work well for mono recording of performances so I might try that next time. I have only ever used it twice otherwise. Maybe I can combine it with the Astatics in a Decca Tree or something.

pcrecord, post: 452486, member: 46460 wrote: Fatheads are not junk at all.. but they have a specific sound that isn't suited for everything.
If a customer have an Electric amp that has pronounced HF, I just put up a sm57 and a fat head and know it's gonna sound good. ;)
The right tool for the job is all it takes !

Good tip.

The East Crescent gig at Player's Ink sounded very thin and bright on the guitars. They use tiny Fender amps on the tiny elevated stage, with those acrylic screens in front to isolate the mic from the room some. It sounds fine in a bar with a wall behind the amp, but outside it sounds like a tinny saw cutting through the head. I had to radically cut the treble and it was still bright.

I will have to find out which mic they are using. We are probably not going to be putting a larger amp in the mix but maybe a warmer mic will help.

paulears, post: 452487, member: 47782 wrote: I'm amazed nobody has mentioned how terrible stereo recording in bars normally is...I don't really have a solution, but I'm pretty sure M/S might not be it because you will get a mono sound from the stage area and stereo noise and talking.

Ah. Good point.

bouldersound, post: 452496, member: 38959 wrote: And there you have the result of tl:dr. If the OP had been more concise then key details wouldn't have been lost in the flood of words.

Paulears, it's her band's PA that she is running. She wants to take samples of the sound in various parts of venues, including audience participation. She wants a surround sound sort of result.

I'll reiterate, if using an omni mid mic in a M-S setup there will be no sense of front vs. back. A Pro Logic type processor will just put everything along the center line into the center speaker, even things coming from behind. A mic array with a defined front will be better for that.

Sorry, I do babble. I usually get more concise once I am a little more familiar with the lingo and subject matter but I still babble.

I figure on trying the NOS, ORTF, DIN and Decca Tree arrays eventually. But the main issue here is my nearly total unfamiliarity with studio or live audio.

If I do use omni mic for the m-s I will be doing at least a 2D if not 3D capture, and probably just the Behringers. If I use better mics I will probably be using the cardioid mid in one of the recommended setups or a pair of figure 8 ribbons, but that will take a while to fund.

If I use the front-rear dual mid-side, is that four cardioids, is that two cardioids and two figure-8's? I think I saw it both ways.

OK, given the 6 Behringers, the 3 Astatics, the EV, the My800, and the Zoom, what to try first?

I figure the first experiment will be a figure-8 set of Behringers spaced A-B and parallel or maybe slightly aimed apart from each other, from near the rear where I usually mix, or from in front of the stage if I can find a place to set it.

I do not have a Pro Logic type processor. The only processing I planned on was EQ and mixing with maybe phase inversion for the figure-8 in mid-side.

Is there a surround processor that does the ambiance extraction and steering? I was planning on using the Neo:x 11.1 in my receiver for playback, but never even considered the possibility of synthesizing 7.1 upmix directly off a recording and storing it as another recording.

Is there another term like 'audiot'?

CherylJosie, post: 452511, member: 50446 wrote: Boundary mic is not a new concept to me but zero experience with them. How do I estimate likely place to put them? Put my ear next to the boundary? Will they stick to a painted metal ceiling? Unfamiliar with mounting systems.

I've used the sure beta 91, inside the kick drum resting right on top of the drum pillow with some masking tape to hold it in place. I've also done shakers and room mic'ing with it on a sheet music stand. You could rest it on the table at the console, or hang is by its cord. It's got a locking plug sonshoild withstand its own weight, tho I'd probably tape it at well.

CherylJosie, post: 452511, member: 50446 wrote: I like the concept of DSP in a sound card but I hate doing anything on a PC. Win10 crashes on me every day again and needs re-install, royal pain, but I have to do it every year since forever. Linux has proven much more stable but the hardware support sucks and I am not a posix hacker so that makes it difficult too.

I've experience the pain of several win Xp installs. Have you optimized your windows for audio? It should help with crashing and overall performance. You'll likely want to save a backup and restore point for the moment your system is running well, so if it crashes in the future you can just restore it.

Besides your mic of choice for the figure 8 of the M/S, you absolutely can't go wrong with some used sm-57/58's. At $40-60 a piece they're probably the best bang for the buck in microphones ever. Ideally you grab some from a local, reliable music store since fakes run rampid online. I've used 57's for drum overheads, and even room, which are less conventional places for them. They haven't let me down. They are remarkable mics.

As far as dsp and hardware based surround encoders, that's really out of my range of knowledge since I'm new to vidiocy. From what I gather video based hardware processors like (the raven?) are relatively expensive. They way I (mis)understand it is you can 'bounce' any sort of stereo mix, into a surround format, and the process will handle how say your reverb trails, are distributed among the surround channels. I'm pretty sure this happens at all levels of A/V to some extent, where say the master was done in 7.1, and it's sent to an atmos theater or 3D theater. There's a certain level of encoding/decoding done by the studio, then by the end user.

Being in-between systems myself, I can't verify how it's done in reaper, or any other program, but usually the 'render or bounce to disk' menu has all the available options of what format your mixing down to.

If the intent is for surround, I would have the surround master bus setup in the session, assuming you have the ability to monitor in surround. Otherwise I'd stick w stereo and let the computer do its thing.

Also, maybe one of your buddies has a 'go pro' camera, which might unobtrusively give you the 'your there' feel. They mount on all sorts of things.

John Willett, post: 452510, member: 47971 wrote: The Tetra mic. is very affordable and the Brahma is even cheaper, if you can't afford a genuine Soundfield mic.

Thanks, that looks promising.

I noted that they are careful with gain matching. The Zoom R24 has analog-looking input attennuators and would probably mess up the gain matching. There is really no way to get it back either because even if I try using a source to calibrate it after placement the room will mess with it anyway.

This need for careful matching and DSP post-processing was one of the reasons I considered mid-side that has no such issues but now I am questioning whether the Zoom is going to help out. I want to future-proof this and mismatched front end is a non-starter for a soundfield mic that looks like a promising and affordable solution.

The Brahma in a hand-held Zoom might be good choice though, and it comes pre-configured. So much easier than rigging arrays of mics. I think maybe that is a winner.

The most interesting thing about the soundfield is that I can selectively filter out spatial areas to shape the response to the venue/crowd and use it as any polar pattern mic I want. That means if I really screwed up in the placement at least I can do something about it in post-processing.

kmetal, post: 452520, member: 37533 wrote: I've experience the pain of several win Xp installs. Have you optimized your windows for audio?

No idea how, but thanks, I will look into it.

If the intent is for surround, I would have the surround master bus setup in the session, assuming you have the ability to monitor in surround. Otherwise I'd stick w stereo and let the computer do its thing.

I do not have a system I could carry to a gig yet so no monitoring other than what the mixer/recorder has. I should probably look into some console or rack or at least laptop that will do it.

kmetal, post: 452523, member: 37533 wrote: Also, maybe one of your buddies has a 'go pro' camera, which might unobtrusively give you the 'your there' feel. They mount on all sorts of things.

I think some of the vids were gopro and some were zoom but I was not paying attention. I will ask for the next gig and maybe they will bring their gear. usually they leave it all home and just perform.

Windows optimization is pretty much an "absolute must" if your intending on working with audio and video on a PC. It's fairly easy steps, and frees up your computers resources so your getting the most out of your system.

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207355205-Optimising-your-PC-for-Audio-on-Windows-10

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/pc-optimization-guide-for-windows-10/

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/windows-10-musicians

A more advanced set of optimizations:

http://www.blackviper.com/service-configurations/black-vipers-windows-10-service-configurations/

Going back to that uni video, it kind of reinforces my opinion of stereo studio recordings of things like guitars. That room, a typical boxy sounding, sound treated box, probably designed purely to keep sound in or out is a stupid place to record in stereo with any of the clever techniques - M/S, Blumlein, Decca Trees and the similar versions of them often sprouted about as somehow life changing!

I'm not against them is some of the really amazing acoustic spaces we occasionally get to work in, because these places sound wonderful, and capturing a great instrument played by somebody really good in one of them means you can end up with a better sound.

Going back to that treated university studio space. What will the recording sound like? Predictably dull and lifeless, but with some stereo information. Not much I suspect due to the spacing, but I bet the first thing they do is use a rather nice, and probably expensive reverb plugin - which will generate wonderful reverb, perhaps on a Carnegie Hall, or Los Angeles specific studio, or even Abbey Road setting, if they have these on tap. These will add a whole set of new stereo images, that probably sound great on just the mid channel. Why all this faffing around with M/S? Guitars are physically small, and really only have tonal shifts in the width - mellow/boomy one end, thin and full of finger noise the other. That's a balance thing, NOT, in my humble view stereo, and when you stick your head at maybe a metre away from a guitar, do you hear stereo, or is it just slightly wider mono? Use two mics for the different tones, and in a dull boring studio with no reflections or at least very short ones, add artificial reverb as it will sound better - and artificial PLUS misaligned real sides cannot be better - and surely should not be what a university is delivery as industry practice to their students? This guy is absolutely sold on the entire process, and I have to ask ...... why?

We've all talked about mic choices and technics but I feel the need to discuss about what would be the best way to record in a bar or any live situation.

If I forget the op's question and just think about how I would do it, it'd be very different.

My first choice would be to do 2 seperate mixes (one for the PA and one dedicated mix for recording) on a digital mixer or have 2 mixers and a split snake.
I'd normaly use a multi track recorder but on a tight budget, the dedicated mix or second mixer's mix would go to a Zoom Hxx what ever the model. . .
For the audience, I would put 2 sm57 on stage, pointed at them.. that's it ! Unless someone is shouting at the camera, there's no reason people would hear the difference from a crowd from the stage or near the camera...

Recording a PA with mics isn't a good idea to start with in my opinion because you get too much of the room sound and get stucked with it. It's much easier to add reverb on a clean mix in post if you want ambiance...

Just my 2 cents ;)

BTW Royer just put out the R10 at 499$$ worth a try I'm sure !
http://royerlabs.com/r-10/

Cheryl (CherylJosie )
I feel the need to suggest that you might be expecting too much out of the gear you are using - mics being the variable of your expectations being too "ambitious".
When I read your comments, and see phrases like, "I hate the way this sounds", or " I really don't like...", And then you mention that you are using cheap $30 mics that never were considered to be "good", along with newer cheap pieces like the Behringers, it hammers home what we all know....and that is that your quality will only ever be as good as the worst sounding link in your chain.
I understand budget constraints. We all do. Purchasing good-sounding gear is off your radar right now.We've all been there, and at some point in our years we've come to the realization that cheap gear will only ever get you so far. At some point, you need to step up to bettter sounding equipment. And it matters.
I'm suggesting to you that until you manage to improve some of your equipment, you'll only ever get a cheap sound, and you will likely continue to be frustrated.
Certainly, methods count, too. Mic placement and technique are crucial to a successful recording; but even with great technique, if you are using mics that simply sound bad, then the placement and methods becomes moot.
No one is suggesting that you get into "second mortgage" mics, such as expensive Neumanns or Schoeps mics, but going with the extreme on the other end - the budget level gear - will probably only have you continue to pull your hair in frustration.
FWIW
-d.

For what it's worth - the camera audio your youtube links reveal is pretty typical and exhibit all the problems we've been discussing. I liked the one where we could hear the tambourine very clearly yet the drummer was virtually absent - I guess spill into her vocal mic and out via the PA.

Our band has an X32, IEMs, personal mixers and everything is miked up - despite all this the balance of any direct to stereo recording the desk makes is always poorly balanced because of the real sound on stage. Multi-tracks are fine of course - but what goes through the PA is never going to make a decent recording!

paulears, post: 452528, member: 47782 wrote: That room, a typical boxy sounding, sound treated box, probably designed purely to keep sound in or out is a stupid place to record in stereo with any of the clever techniques - M/S, Blumlein, Decca Trees and the similar versions of them often sprouted about as somehow life changing!
...
Going back to that treated university studio space. What will the recording sound like? Predictably dull and lifeless, but with some stereo information...This guy is absolutely sold on the entire process, and I have to ask ...... why?

I am a little tired of that 'overproduced sound' pounding my ears, where nothing is real and everything is compressed into a 20dB dynamic range. A little bit of natural stereo is refreshing even if it is underwhelming in character. I sometimes wonder if we have all veered off on a path full of maddening contradictions.

I have a living room theater with bass traps and first reflection absorbers on ceiling and rear/side walls. I tried to preserve the ambient feel but it is carpeted and crowded and the space is smallish. The acoustics are good for performing by the TV and capturing in the main listening position. Even though the ambiance is compromised, I would still like to capture in stereo and see what happens.

If I'm going to record a bar gig and I want it to be good, I'll do the full split and multitrack, with supplemental drum mics and audience mics. If I want it to be decent but a lot easier I'll use my Zoom H5, place it to capture stage noise (either from foot of stage for stage noise only, or place it out in the room centered between the stacks to capture the whole stage noise/PA sound), and capture the board feed in the mic/line inputs, then time align them in post and mix to taste.

bouldersound, post: 452562, member: 38959 wrote: If I'm going to record a bar gig and I want it to be good, I'll do the full split and multitrack, with supplemental drum mics and audience mics. If I want it to be decent but a lot easier I'll use my Zoom H5, place it to capture stage noise (either from foot of stage for stage noise only, or place it out in the room centered between the stacks to capture the whole stage noise/PA sound), and capture the board feed in the mic/line inputs, then time align them in post and mix to taste.

That's what's cool about the x32 and some others, is they'll print multitrack directly to a USB drive. As long as your gain setting is reasonable it's a great solution to having to bring a separate tracking setup and some snake. I figure you know this boulder, just mentioning it for conversation.

paulears, post: 452554, member: 47782 wrote: For what it's worth - the camera audio your youtube links reveal is pretty typical and exhibit all the problems we've been discussing. I liked the one where we could hear the tambourine very clearly yet the drummer was virtually absent - I guess spill into her vocal mic and out via the PA.

Our band has an X32, IEMs, personal mixers and everything is miked up - despite all this the balance of any direct to stereo recording the desk makes is always poorly balanced because of the real sound on stage. Multi-tracks are fine of course - but what goes through the PA is never going to make a decent recording!

The Hummers played there before but that was my first time at 3 Seasons Restaurant. They placed the FOH speakers far off to the sides and aimed slightly apart to spread the sound around the open space rather than blast the patrons.

I had the camcorder parked right in front of the PA to pick up the vocals and keep the tripod behind a bush where it was out of the way of the audience. The drums and keyboards were attenuated in the mix from that location but it sounded better than putting the camcorder right in front of the band where the vocals were muffled.

In retrospect I realized that I should have aimed the monitors horizontally and turned them up louder so that the audience behind the band got vocals too. I also accidentally shut off the effects in the monitors for that gig and that made the sound on stage very dry.

I should have brought more powered speakers. I have a friend with a pair of Behringer 12" monitors that actually sound good and would have filled in the center vocals better out front. I am considering a wireless link for them so I can put them wherever I need to fill in the holes at a gig without having to run wires everywhere. Two speakers are just not enough to do the job properly even in a small space when the acoustics are problematic.

There was another camcorder with a Sennheiser shotgun mic at 3 Seasons that day and the audio sounds even worse from in front but when he moved over to my camcorder and aimed his shotgun mic at the stage it sounded better than it did on my camcorder -- not much, but noticeably better.

I do have that one EV691A dynamic cardioid vocal mic. It is spec'd at 60-14KHz and sounds smooth.

Would that work as the 'mid' in a mid-side with a symmetrical ribbon, such as a Fat Head?

At a gig like Three Seasons the acoustics are good, the band is spread out, and stereo imaging should work out well, provided I can make sure there is no hole in the middle of the PA next time and find a convenient place for the array.

Presumably dynamic and condenser will be out of phase with each other just like ribbon and condenser, correct? So dynamic and ribbon should integrate? I am a little foggy on the physics today but I believe both ribbon and dynamic use EM induction?

CherylJosie, post: 452558, member: 50446 wrote: I sometimes wonder if we have all veered off on a path full of maddening contradictions.

Getting a good live Audio & Video recording simultaneously is very doable. Meeting some of the other criteria, (for instance, the audio point of reference following a moving camera POV, in a public place) will prove to be next to impossible logistically on anything less than a major motion picture budget.

A former pro-audio / broadcast-quality contributor here (with VERY high standards) used to talk about making professional quality bootleg concert hall recordings (with the blessing of the conductor, to skirt union issues) using nothing more than a pair of omni Sennheiser lavalier mics. Discussed Here and Here.

Unfortunately, the embedded links seem to be dead, but here is the one key link that is being discussed. It's fascinating and very relevant to your desire for realism:

Downside, with bar / night club patrons shouting to have a conversation over the band, you will hear a lot more of that than you're going to want moving through the room.

kmetal, post: 452563, member: 37533 wrote: That's what's cool about the x32 and some others, is they'll print multitrack directly to a USB drive. As long as your gain setting is reasonable it's a great solution to having to bring a separate tracking setup and some snake. I figure you know this boulder, just mentioning it for conversation.

Thanks, that clarifies his contribution for me.

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

The Behringers should be here tomorrow and the stereo bar should be here Saturday. The Zoom R24 is on loan to me already. It looks like I will have something to record with for the gigs next weekend. The Hummers are back at The Pioneer on the 15th and East Crescent plays there the 16th.

The Hummers are using a ProFX16v2. We are using both aux sends of the ProFX for monitor sends so no way I can get a mix out unless I gang the monitors? I could do that, but they have the feedback destroyer and I use the send to gradually raise the volume while conditioning the feedback destroyers and I do it independently to try to avoid weirdness.

East Crescent has a DL1608. We have used anywhere from 1 to 3 aux sends for monitors and 1 more for the sub on the DL1608. Aux 5 and 6 seem to always be available, so I could run a mix off that if I like. The issue is getting it to sound nice. A board that captures the inputs raw is preferable. That X32 looks like a good option except for a couple of things?

First, does it have digital input attenuators so I can match the gains for a soundfield mic?

Second, will it interface to an iPad so I can control it remotely?

Oh yes, one more, does it run on battery power? I guess no because the faders are automated and it looks to have lots of lighted display sucking up power too.

Having just finally taken a look at the videos, I though they sounded fine. As far as the general mixes go I would imagine they were good in the club, and what made it thru to the camera wasn't glaringly out of touch with what a good overall mix would sound like in that situation.

So I guess if the first question is are the live mixes decent, then I'd say yeah based on the video they sound ok.

As far as the videos audio standing on its own for presentation, it could use some work as is, for instance some mastering type work on the 2trk on the camera would be a first step. Beyond that I'd multitrack the shows. Doing some dedicated stereo micing might help clear things up relative to the camera audio, but still is gonna be blurry.

We are in the buisness of illusion and a lot of famous 'live' albums were mostly overdubbed.

Another thing to note is that the bands themselves, the performance is really what makes a mix good (along w the acoustics). Like the singer from Libido Blues, was really taking it to pride and joy, while East Crescent took away from the song bad fish. This isn't to be harsh, it's simply to compare a relatively vibrant performance with a lackluster one.

After recording the several different bands on the same house drums, w the same mic'ing ect, it was a big AHA! Moment for me at the studio when I tracked a group of pros, and everything sounded better. I did the same thing as usual, but the quality wasn't attainable any other way. Same thing happens when I mixed in and accurate room, and recorded an average rapper, but with a calrec pre.

So just saying it's expected that some nights are gonna be better than others, and despite what the bands will tell you, it's not always the engineers fault.

As far as Beringer spot monitors, I've not used the 10 or 12" ones, but was very surprised how well the 8" ones worked on stage for a RnB band's keyboardist at the club. Unobtrusive and clear I was surprised out of my usual snobbery for beeringer speakers. They got the power right, and the crossovers were less critical in that case, and I would imagine in small monitors in genral? The larger ones are 'okay' provided very conservative use of gain, otherwise gross clipping in the amps, and distortions in the crossovers take over.

Again not knocking the gear, just sort of pointing out the importance of knowing your gear, and how to work around or with its quirks. Modest gear is gernally best used moderately, and this took me a lot of failures to learn.

CherylJosie, post: 452569, member: 50446 wrote: Thanks, that clarifies his contribution for me.

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

The Behringers should be here tomorrow and the stereo bar should be here Saturday. The Zoom R24 is on loan to me already. It looks like I will have something to record with for the gigs next weekend. The Hummers are back at The Pioneer on the 15th and East Crescent plays there the 16th.

The Hummers are using a ProFX16v2. We are using both aux sends of the ProFX for monitor sends so no way I can get a mix out unless I gang the monitors? I could do that, but they have the feedback destroyer and I use the send to gradually raise the volume while conditioning the feedback destroyers and I do it independently to try to avoid weirdness.

East Crescent has a DL1608. We have used anywhere from 1 to 3 aux sends for monitors and 1 more for the sub on the DL1608. Aux 5 and 6 seem to always be available, so I could run a mix off that if I like. The issue is getting it to sound nice. A board that captures the inputs raw is preferable. That X32 looks like a good option except for a couple of things?

First, does it have digital input attenuators so I can match the gains for a soundfield mic?

Second, will it interface to an iPad so I can control it remotely?

Oh yes, one more, does it run on battery power? I guess no because the faders are automated and it looks to have lots of lighted display sucking up power too.

The input gain is digitally controlled. And the board is controllable by an iPad. It doesn't run on battery, you'd need a generator for that, or a battery bank. They make the x32R which is a rack version, no faders, and it's price is much lower than the full desk. I've worked w bands who've setup in minutes with this thing, recalled the settings from their last gig at the same place, and started without soindcheck, with good results. They were using IEMs which makes this task much easier and more consistent. It was the band's various X32's I've worked on so I'm not super familiar with all the capabilities. I'm somewhat of a hack live guy, relative to a true pro, and don't own any live gear.

dvdhawk, post: 452567, member: 36047 wrote: nfortunately, the embedded links seem to be dead, but here is the one key link that is being discussed. It's fascinating and very relevant to your desire for realism:

Decoded through DTS Neo:x 11.1, the studio environment sounds very realistic.

The hall sounds way too ambient. As soon as he walks away from the band at all the imaging is very blurred and that did not sound realistic at all. At least the ambiance should have been well-defined.

It says it is binaural head so I tried headphones. Honestly it sounded better through 11 speakers.

The imaging was unstable in both (maybe my hearing and/or equipment), but better with headphones. Unfortunately with headphones the imaging seemed to place the front center close above my head height and the rear center was poorly defined. Then again, with hearing that cuts off at 10KHz I have trouble with imaging even in person, so even if the pinnea translated perfectly I would still have issues.

If this is any indication, my 'you are there' project is going to be a disappointment just like you have been warning. I guess we will see what happens when I decode 7 channels of mid-side through cheap mics.

I tried listening to some field surround recordings but the multichannel wav files would not play on my system. VLC played them in stereo and the browser would only play mangled digital noise.

To me (using headphones) the big hall sounds exactly like I would expect a space like that to sound, from that distance, with those instruments, each at moderate volume. Cavernous.

This came up on my YouTube feed. Pretty crazy how much work goes into a 4 min music vid on the commercial rock level. And their not really a big biduget band either. (No swears but middle fingers- just a precaution)

Behind the scenes:

Queens of the Stone Age - The Way You Used To Do

I finally read this entire post. Forgive me...I'm old. A lot of talk about the micing techniques and the purpose of the experiment and it's a great thread! We have some seriously talented live sound hombres here who have (no doubt) been through these things before.

Not much has been said about the 'borrowed' Zoom R24. You do realize it's an interface? You do realize that it comes bundled with a DAW? Cubase LE but what the hey........In a quick scan of it (the Zoom) it appears to also be a multi-task recorder a lot like something you'd write your tunes on. Not a lot of field recorders have drum machines built in....And it does have a bit of DSP effects available but it seems to be an all-purpose device that incorporates parts of their (Zoom's) various devices as an amalgamation of all they offer. They do make really good field recording equipment as well as guitar interfaces and effects, standalone interfaces, a live mixer. etc. This one they call a multitrack recorder. I would download the manual and read read read! There are several available on the Zoom site pertaining to just this thing. And perhaps an opening of a dialog with the 'experts' at Zoom through their website might give you a leg up on the abilities of your primary capture device.....Which is unbelievably important....

So it occurs to me that at your capture, if you have this 'cart' you intend to build out for your purpose, AND you have a laptop or even your iPad, that through the USB port and using the provided DAW program in the Zoom that you are halfway there without need of Audacity or whatever "free" software you intend to rely on.

I'm just throwing this out a something to muse over. Sometimes a simple solution without regards to the the technical side of things is the right thing.

BTW. I totally agree that an omni array with a few spot mics will get you closer to your "We are there effect" ....And I also agree that facing a limited budget you should use whatever you can borrow or steal in order to perfect your technique prior to upping the pay grade of the gear. At least in this way you'll have a direct comparison of quality as well as a growth curve to the library.

Davedog, post: 452591, member: 4495 wrote: ...it's a great thread! We have some seriously talented live sound hombres here who have (no doubt) been through these things before.

Agreed, I am having a blast meeting all these kind and helpful people here.

Not much has been said about the 'borrowed' Zoom R24. You do realize it's an interface? You do realize that it comes bundled with a DAW? Cubase LE but what the hey........

I have not looked into the 'interface' aspect of it yet. I have only tried some simple recordings that I played back on the Zoom. The owner bought it used and I am not even sure he has the original software.

The Cubase LE that came with my e-Mu 1212m is crippleware. It puts a glitch at the beginning of every program where playback jumps/pauses 2 seconds in and will not save edits. Makes it impossible to use for anything decent. All the software that came with the e-Mu was crippled and useless without a purchase of the real thing.

BTW. I totally agree that an omni array with a few spot mics will get you closer to your "We are there effect"

Multichannel seems to be the consensus here, so I am going to accept that as fact and work toward that.

Omni array in 5 channels? 3 channels? I saw many versions and they all seem to have been designed for classical performances in a hall. A-B stereo array? Try them all? There must be some rule of thumb I can apply to at least target a starting point.

I have not figured out how to capture vocal feed or an instrument feed for those not using amps that I can mic. For East Crescent there are at least two vocal mics and a keyboard so maybe I can put them all on independent aux sends or do the vocals in a stereo mix if there are more than two. I usually have three or four aux available, but once there were only two. For The Hummers I will need to figure out how to make an aux send available. I mic the kick drum and vocals for them (the band complains about the kick because their stage volume is already too high but the kick needs help and the drummer owns the PA so they get outvoted... I just put a touch of it out front and that works out fine)

I give, multichannel is the way to go and post-process. It will take more work and time setting it up but maybe if I get good at it I can do it efficiently without disrupting the gig.

I will try out the mid-side surround array anyway too because it seems relatively easy to upmix it to 7 channels and I am curious what it sounds like on a home theater plus it is my own invention so I owe it to myself to investigate it further.

Maybe I will start capturing some environmental sounds to see if anyone wants them for sound tracks. There was some latino screaming and raving last night about his 'puta, you whore blah blah blah' that would have made a great backing track for a movie. He was going at it for hours and I expected the police to show up and put him down but apparently no one cared enough to call them. He just kept going and going and going.

CherylJosie, post: 452594, member: 50446 wrote: The Cubase LE that came with my e-Mu 1212m is crippleware. It puts a glitch at the beginning of every program where playback jumps/pauses 2 seconds in and will not save edits. Makes it impossible to use for anything decent. All the software that came with the e-Mu was crippled and useless without a purchase of the real thing.

The Zoom comes with the DAW software. It is an interface and saves you that step in your process. You should not need another interface of any kind.

It should be an easy enough process to find out what is in the Zoom as far as software. Download the manual. Go to Zoom and this is readily available and there's a lot of it. They might be able to enlighten some of your questions. There must be also a FAQ section there to. Since they started their lives as a mobile recording device company and build things on par with the better stuff out there, there should be information just waiting to become part of your repertoire

CherylJosie, post: 452565, member: 50446 wrote: I do have that one EV691A dynamic cardioid vocal mic. It is spec'd at 60-14KHz and sounds smooth.

Would that work as the 'mid' in a mid-side with a symmetrical ribbon, such as a Fat Head?

Not as an M-S pair, no, since they are 90deg out of phase. You would need a cardioid ribbon like the Beyer M160 for the M channel.

kmetal, post: 452570, member: 37533 wrote: Having just finally taken a look at the videos, I though they sounded fine.

Thanks for that compliment. I did try my best.

The Hummers only put the vocals through the PA, except I add a little kick and sometimes there is a second keyboard too. So the stage volume is really loud and I have to make sure I can max their monitors or they cannot hear themselves singing. My ears start distorting badly near 115dB, and their mixer is next to the stage because they have no snake, so I have to adjust from there with my ears distorting. I measured 120dB peaks at the rear third of the room.

East Crescent used to play even louder, but since I became involved we have been making the sound clearer instead. It seems much easier to do with a very capable PA but it takes more effort on my part too.

Libido Blues has only had a couple of gigs and I only mixed one of them. I am hoping they start playing out again. They are training up some new members.

After recording the several different bands on the same house drums, w the same mic'ing etc, it was a big AHA! Moment for me at the studio when I tracked a group of pros, and everything sounded better.

I experienced something similar with the bands. They are playing better because they have a better mix, and I am mixing better because they are playing better. I have seen it changing before my eyes and it is kind of :cool:.

As far as Beringer spot monitors, I've not used the 10 or 12" ones, but was very surprised how well the 8" ones worked on stage for a RnB band's keyboardist at the club.

There is a set of B215XL mains (~250w ea) with tripods, and an EP4000 amp (~500wpc), available with those monitors, along with a 32 channel Eurodesk analog mixer. Only the monitors and mains ever get use. The FBQ6200HD 31 band stereo EQ powers up in odd broken states intermittently, and when it does work, one channel is missing the lower third of the bands. It is almost as if a power supply is failing or something.

He has never powered the amp so we do not even know if it works and I am afraid to use it with anything because we do not have speakers that can handle its output. I suggested we wire them in series to protect them. I have no clue why he bought that amp and neither does he except he wanted a loud PA. He used a Yamaha PA head with them but that member left Libido Blues.

Boswell, post: 452597, member: 29034 wrote: Not as an M-S pair, no, since they are 90deg out of phase. You would need a cardioid ribbon like the Beyer M160 for the M channel.

OK so now I am confused about microphone phase.

Assuming that condenser is phased at 0 degrees, what are the respective phases of dynamic and ribbon mics?

CherylJosie, post: 452594, member: 50446 wrote: I have not figured out how to capture vocal feed or an instrument feed for those not using amps that I can mic.

For vocals which would have a mic, you can use an aux and send them all to one track on the recorder, just try and keep similar levels for when they sing at the same time. When they don't it's easy to clip gain adjust them in the Daw.

You may just have to toss some mics in front of the amps and not send them thru the PA, just the recorder.

CherylJosie, post: 452604, member: 50446 wrote: My ears start distorting badly near 115dB, and their mixer is next to the stage because they have no snake, so I have to adjust from there with my ears distorting. I measured 120dB peaks at the rear third of the room.

I highly reccomend ear plugs. The foam ones work just fine and are cheap and readily available at any home improvement store. They usually come in orange, green or white.

Basically as soon as I have the mix dialed in, I plug up. Then the first min or couple songs of each set, I'll take them out to make any adjustments I need to make with fresh ears. Then plug up. It's easy enough to make small fader rides or even small eq adjustments with them in, and easy enough to pull them out briefly. There's also available some custom molded ear plugs for a couple hundred bucks that are supposed allow you to hear 'flat' but with volume attenuation. Your ears are your money makers, and it's really fringe science that's successfully wired the brain to some mics for otherwise deaf people. So basically take care of them, becuase they only degrade gradually over time, and cannot be replaced. Bar gigs are not worth it. Plus you'll do a better job overall with fresh ears through out the whole night.

If your self concious about a bright orange/green/white, foam thing sticking out of your ear, admittedly not the best look, just cut it so it less obtrusive, or they make some which are basically like a wax ball that you put in the ear and it's fairly transparent and fits flush. anyone who says something derogatory (about ear plugs) is an idiot. I see fans at metal shows w ear plugs, so people are a lot more aware of hearing damage than they used to be. Besides all you have to do is ignore them, or just keep saying "what? Can't hear you? What?" Lol and laugh at them as they continue to try and be a jerk. Lecture over, but please take it seriously.

Bands may want or need or like it loud, but a deaf sound engineer is doing nobody any good. Especially to the patrons who are 2ft in front of the mains.

Beyond that there's OSHA requirements a club is supposed to be within, and potential neighbors. That's up to the club and neighbors to adhere to, but the engineer will get blamed.

Also, with reguard to not micing amps. Despite what the players think, or like, amps on stage in clubs like that are basically functioning as their instrument monitor. The mics and PA are there to amplify the amps sound to the rest of the club. Otherwise each member just continually turns up until the drummer can't possibly play louder, and then the monitors get turned up, sound gross, and nobody hears anything. Then the singer sings out of key.

I've worked w some bands where this was a problem, other (more professional) where stage volume was no issue. The guitarist or whoever will get some sense of sound from the PA as well so they'll hear a combination of their amp and the mains and monitors. There's no reason for loud amps in small clubs, it wrecks the tone. If the amp needs to be cranked like a JCM800 something like a Marshall Powerbrake is made to allow for this as realistic volumes.

Loudmouths and people who can't handle their drugs and alcohol are a part of the gig. If you have a problem you can always talk to the bouncer or bartender discreetly. As a former bartender I know many bouncers love to give a--holes the long way out the back door and down the stairs. They particularly don't like disrespect to women, or the staff. It reflects negatively on the bar.

CherylJosie, post: 452604, member: 50446 wrote: My ears start distorting badly near 115dB, and their mixer is next to the stage because they have no snake, so I have to adjust from there with my ears distorting. I measured 120dB peaks at the rear third of the room.

That's just nuts. When it's that loud it bleeds into the vocal mics so badly there's really nothing you can do to make it decent. And it's bad for your hearing, short and long term.

How are the amps placed/aimed? At the players' legs? I prefer each player to tilt their amp to aim where their head is when they take a step back from their vocal mic, and then I mic it so it can be spread out evenly to the audience instead of beamed at an unlucky one or two up front.

So what would the osha requirement be? I suspect that nearly every bar gig with more than 2 musicians using amps is too loud based on what I have seen/heard.

I bring a box of ear plugs to every gig. Sometimes I need them, sometimes not. Usually I just stick my fingers in my ears because it is easier.

The Hummers are not interested in the investment of a large PA. I hope they get a subwoofer and let me put more sound through the PA, but they are really good at balancing their volumes from the stage so at least that part is good, but they are too loud usually. Fortunately they can hear themselves now that I am helping, so they sing better.

bouldersound, post: 452608, member: 38959 wrote: That's just nuts. When it's that loud it bleeds into the vocal mics so badly there's really nothing you can do to make it decent. And it's bad for your hearing, short and long term.

How are the amps placed/aimed? At the players' legs? I prefer each player to tilt their amp to aim where their head is when they take a step back from their vocal mic, and then I mic it so it can be spread out evenly to the audience instead of beamed at an unlucky one or two up front.

Yes, you got it. Guitar and bass have stacks so they are aimed more at hip/stomach level. The keyboard player tilts his cabinet upward from floor level.

I do not think they are turning up to clip the output stages, I just think they are turning up because they are having a good time with the tactile.

East Crescent puts everything through stage monitors except the bass and drums so they use tiny amps on the floor with shields and mics and the bass is direct in to the mix. The kick is mic'd usually, sometimes the snare, once even the hats too, but never the cymbals. The band is so tightly packed that the cymbals come through the vocal mics. I chop the PA bandwidth at 15KHz to keep from blowing tweeters accidentally or deafening people with feedback I cannot hear.

Well the on-stage stereo bar arrived and the first thing I did is break it.

The My800 has plastic tubes with anti-rotate pins that stick out and interlock with the quick-release mic attachments. I snapped several of them just trying to put in microphones and aim them.

The thing is worthless. I am going to have to put screws or metal pins in it. I am not even going to bother trying to replace them. If I cannot improve it I will buy something else.

Here I was thinking modular was going to be better for my experiments. Oops.

Volume is the be all and end all for some, and totally unimportant to others. My band's guitarist loves it loud, I hate it! I did a show recently where all the band were on in ears - a Queen tribute. The guitarist's AC30 was just ticking over and the sound was great and really quiet. The stage sounded very odd, hardly any bass, or vocals, or guitar - just the drums. The audience got a great sound, and the in-ears really worked.

I often use in-ears, but sometimes when we HAVE to use supplied wedges, I stick them in as they reduce the volume nicely.

True to form, FecEx seems to be pretending to attempt delivery of my microph0nes to my apartment.

Every time they need a signature it seems they let the package ride around on the truck for a week and then tell me to come get it.

Several times I asked them to please attempt delivery because I am usually home.

FedEx has to be the worst delivery service I have ever had to deal with.