No recording project or studio is complete until there are at least seven SM57's on hand.

Its a silly question dude. Sorry. Use the search engine here and find out a LOT about SM57's.

Unless your condensers are really good ones you might want to use ALL 57's on everything.

Dave is right. Do a search on drum mics or micing drums.

However, I think you would be fine with all 57's. If you could swing it, I might choose to do either a Shure Beta 52 or AKG112 in the kick.

Good luck. Make some good music!

[ Its a silly question dude. Sorry. Use the search engine here and find out a LOT about SM57's.]

Dave -- i didnt mean to offend you with the question. i'll try not to do it again. in the mean time i'll check out that search engine.

thanks both for the advice!

57's are a studio workhorse, good for so many things, they are constantly suprising how good they are

I would use it for every drum except the bass drum

I've never been excited about sm57s on snare drum. They sound hollow and muffled to me. But I've been thinking of challenging myself to mic my snare and all toms with 57s and make it work--to see what all the fuss is about.

grant, the only reason why your snare drum sounds bad with an SM57, is because you have a bad sounding snare drum. It's a lousy drum. You don't know how to tune it. Your heads are crap and are obviously not appropriate for the sound you want.

So knowing that, you should purchase some Sennheiser MD421's for snare drum, bass drum, toms. Once you have done that, purchase yourself a new drum set and take some lessons.

After all, if these big-time hit making engineers and producers knew what you know, they'd probably never have used all those SM57's on all of their drum sets? They could have made their recording so much better if they had used all Samson condenser microphones made in China! And they could have bypassed those lousy analog consoles like those API and Neve's, if they had used USB microphones.

Still looking for used USB microphones.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Dammit! I can't seem to find any of those on my bathroom floor.

damn the hostility in here! YIKES! Grant a 57 can sometimes sound good out of the box but you're going to have to juice it with some eq, put a small curve around 200hz for some meat, and take out some of the mids to kill the hollow sound and bring up the high end (around 6k) for that bite and snap....and for the original question, condensors are sexy microphones yes, but without a 57 in your studio people will wonder if you really know what you're doing!
Good luck

Remy,

I've been reading this forum for two years and I've never seen you behave so rudely. Thanks for directing your worst at me.

I'm with you, Grant. A '57 on snare is rarely super pleasing to my ears; I sort of see it as the "safe choice" and mainstay of a time before mics better suited for specific drums (a la the ubiquitious AKG D112 versus today's Audix D6). This is not to say I don't use '57s for this purpose, but I usually prefer an Audix D1 or Audio-Technica Pro 35/x for capturing the bark, snap, and personality of the whole instrument rather than that tenored-snare woof.

But I'll state openly that I've never made a hit record, so...

err, i think our mic opinions are getting the best of us. because it's just mostly opinion.
some mics have that instant "sweet" and others your need to work more for that great sound (mic placement people).
Finally, a good engineer can make just about anything usable and sound good.

Grant I don't think what Remy said was meant to be an attack. but, she does have like 150 years in real world experience so i think we can learn alot from her.

Remy you can attack me with your wisdom any day of the week :)

-Chris

Remy,
I don't care what your credentials are. yes, you have a ton of experience. This does not give you the right to denigrate someone else the way I have seen you do not only in this thread, but many others. I've been taking part in this forum for the past few years, sometimes posting, sometimes just watching and learning. I've seen some reactionary responses on plenty of occasions, but you make a habit of it. I will be requesting that you be removed as a moderator due to your rudeness and superior attitude. Let me mention I feel that mods such as Davedog and David French, and past mod Cucco may have their opinions, but they never resort to the naked belittleing of posters which you engage in on a regular basis. I am reporting you. Have fun flaming me now! ANDY

drumist69, terribly sorry old boy, that you have found me so offensive. No real offense meant.

I admit at times I become a little flippant, with some of my responses. Sometimes I'm just reaching beyond the comedy zone. Some people like blond jokes. Some people are offended by them. Some people like ethnic jokes. Other people are offended by them. Some people like Bush. Most people don't. Some people with 3 months of experience try to bring their knowledge to Recording.org. Some of the professional engineers here just LOL. It's almost like a silly girls club. I know, sometimes it seems cruel. But above all, what is most obvious, IS THE PASSION FOR WHAT WE DO. And the myriad of different ways we all do it.

I'm really just trying to make people think about what they are doing or saying, what they think they're going to do. Most people try to find some kind of logic to the audio equation. And I admire those peoples Mr. Spock like approach. Especially when they raise only a single eyebrow. But audio isn't logical. It's black magic. It's voodoo. It's who you do when you do if you do.

Live long and prosper //
Ms. Remy Ann David

Ok, let's keep on topic.

In the old days, there was little choice for good afordable mics. There were may times when I recorded and did live sound gigs where everything was pretty much SM57's and a few SM58's. I would not hesitate to use all SM57's today if I didn't have other choices. A lot the newer popular stuff that has been released with that lo-fi grabage lid trashy sounding drums are done with SM57's. Most of the time I have found that if a SM57 on snare is not working, it is because the snare sounds like crap on it's own. There are times when a snare needs to be tuned to work with a specifc mic. Like all mic's, you use eq if you need or want to. The SM57 can really be a different mic and something special when used with the right high end mic pre.

Theres not mic in the world that WONT work on a snare. NONE.

Will it sound 'right' is another question alltogether.

Heres something else to consider.All 57's are not the same. Granted, the consistancy of Shure mics is one of the greatest parts of this company, there are still subtle differences in each mic. Live, this may not be apparent, but in a studio environment it can mean a lot, just as moving a mic an inch one way or another can mean great changes in sound of the source.

I agree with the notion that if your snare sounds like crap with a 57 on it, no mic change is going to make it golden until the drum itself is fleshed out. At that time, the mic choice will be a matter of taste and a matter of familiarity on the part of the engineer.

Heres a story to illustrate this.

A studio I recorded in for several years had a nice desk and a great mic collection. The engineer ( a friend of mine) was very competent and carefull in his techniques. He ALWAYS used an old beaten to death looking SM57 on the snare, and ALWAYS in the same hole on the console with the same processing and EQ. It always sounded great. One time when I was in the control room I asked him why he always used this like this. He said, the EQ on that track was frozen in that position, the mic was one he had owned for years, and as long as it wasnt broke he didnt want to fix it.

Familiarity is a very big part of an engineers' tool kit.

If you're not there with a piece of gear yet, give it time and someday you'll have a strong opinion about something you know will work without fail everytime the red light goes on.

I have two 57's and an akg d112, and i want to add three more mics to add into my drum mic collection. Although im not sure what i should do. I was thinking maybe buying two 57s, and an akg c1000. Then I could use the c1000 on snare, the 57s for two toms and tow over heads, and the akg d112 for the kick. This way I could use the c1000 my acoustic recordings as well. Any thoughts?? Or maybe i should have two c1000s as overheads, i dont know which should be a larger priority.

....AKG C1000's should never be considered a priority.

For the price there are several other mics that sound a lot better.

Interesting, explain more please?

Micing Drums

The easiest way to know for sure that you are getting the right mics for the job (FOR ANYONE UNSURE ABOUT THIS) is to purchase a drum micing kit that predetermines the right mic for the job (ie snare, kick etc...) I use Sampson Q-mics. I have no problem with them at all. I get killer tones. But I have to tell anyone reading this, the mics are about 40% of the sound you'll get. Mixing is the other 60%. If you can't mix you won't get what your looking for. That is 60/40 between mixing and micing. There are many more variables (mic placement etc...) Which brings up another point. Some of these drum mic systems take alot of the guess work out of placement issues as well.
Tommy

...to know for sure that you are getting the right mics... is to purchase a drum micing kit that predetermines the right mic for the job

Now why hasn't anyone thought about this idea for vocals? You could package them by gender, body size, age, or range: "let's use the 25-to-35-year-old male baritone for this application."

I've yet to hear a drum mic package that does a lot for me. Earthworks' DK25/R maybe comes closest, but I'd still like to hear it used it in tandem with personality-tailored mics.

Ive learned how that mix placement and eq are HUGE when doiong drums which leads me to another question. I own a firepod which is a mixerless setup. How will the effect my drums sounds. Would I just eq it after i record?? or maybe i should be looking into some equalizers to purchase?

Just EQ it in the box if that's what you have available. Also, please do not forget the importance of putting new heads on the drums and tuning them until they sound great. This will make all the difference in the world! ANDY

Great, by eq it in the box do you mean eq on my comp with my daw?

That is indeed what I meant...ANDY

ANDY??????? Once again thankyou for the advice

Drum Mics

Patrick,
You should learn to read first before you open your mouth, it makes sense thats all. I stated that for those that have difficulty determining what mics to use for drums, pre-selected sets work great. I use Samson Q's which are by alot of peoples standard cheap, but I will still put my drum tones up against anything you have personally recorded with any mics you choose.

Read first, then respond.
TommyB.

Drum Mics

Patrick
Check out my tracks on a Rolling Stones "Brown Sugar" Remake collaboration at

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=27692

Scroll down until you get to the post where my drums are added.
The username is abozung, but I sign as TommyB.

Read everything now, there is mention as to why the drums are mixed too loud in the mix, but it ought to give you a good idea.
TommyB.

ABozung,

To begin with, the drums you recorded on that track do sound great. Kudos. Secondly, I don't know that I've ever reached a point where I was fully happy with any drum sounds I've gotten--even those that I've played, minding dynamics--so I regularly use Drumagog for rock drums. I'm sure I'll continue with this method until I get the experience and find the right equipment to where I'm fully happy with my drum sounds, but I don't see this happening soon.

My only criticism was the assurance that a drum mic' package, which is designed to evoke an archetypal sound from an archetypal instrument, is a "sure" way to get mixability out of your instruments. For instance, I like snares that have ring to them (good ring, mind you, but still less controlled than what one might consider overtones), and putting, say, a Nady DM 70 on a snare that I like isn't usually such a good option. Or that an Audix D6 sounds good on my 20" x 22" kick (read: "that" sound) is no assurance that someone with a boomy, 14" x 26" is going to have good results.

Patrick,
Sorry if I came off a little annoyed. It is just that when trying to help people that have obviously bigger problems than just mic selection, you try to pinpoint a certain one item that may point them in the right direction. Being concerned over what mics may be the least of someone's problem when listenting to their reference. I figured if I took the mic selection issue off the table by offering a reasonable solution (a drum mic package), the person would focus on other issues (like mixing/producing etc...) Drum Mic packages eliminate a number of issues like:
1. Placement to some degree (usually they mount so there are only so many positioning errors that can happen)
2. Tight pickup and very unidirectional patterns that reduce cross cancelling and individual isolation issues when it comes time to mixing.
These drum mic packs really do put people in the right direction. They are cheap and as far as I am concerned I am totally happy with the tones I get from them. Predictable and variable if I want them from one project to the next. From what I listen to online over and over from different drummers is a mish mosh of continuity issues between drums that usually revolves around using different manufacturers mics around the kit. That is the tip of the iceburg. Everything from tuning to mixing follows. I cannot tell you one post on a forum that I can truly say ---Oh yea its the mic selection without obviously noticing the tunings, mix and other factors.
So sorry again, I like to help people, but it does get nervey when you have others make critical mistakes as devaluing your suggestions by saying that what I recommended is somehow a less than quality recommendation and to go even further as to cheapen the suggestion like it won't work. Especially when I know it works not just great, but fantastically. So again sorry Patrick. Have a great day.
Tommy

Is my friend, Andy , whos a pretty good drummer himself, the ONLY one to get the MOST IMPORTANT part of drum micing right?????

I dont care what drum mic package you choose, or preamp you use , or mixing program, or any other hardware/software choices you make,

If you cant tune the drums properly, your drum sound is ALWAYS going to suffer or be second rate. Everyone wants a great drum sound....I am no exception.....BUT this difference between okay and great is defined by the tuning ....THE SOURCE IS ALL IMPORTANT.

If you use replacement programs, then simply getting a good trigger level and some sense of steady meter is all important......but for real drums, TUNE EM and quit looking for gear related solutions.

Heres a list in the order of importance for GREAT drum sounds....

1. TUNING....this includes hardware issues..ie:rattles, squeaks, overtones, sympathetic rings, and other non-musical noises.

2. THE ENVIRONMENT...this includes the shape of the room, the material the room is made of, the surface UNDER the drums, the reflective surfaces and the effect on the source sound. Theres a LOT more of this than meets the ear.

3.MIC PLACEMENT..... this is only SLIGHTLY more important than mic choices simply because it is the last easily controlled step you have to consider.

4. MIC CHOICES....this includes mic response , mic size, mounting hardware and stands, and mic polarity. I suppose you could lump polarity and response together but to me these are two different issues.

5. DA DRUMS.....this could also include 'drum operator'.....

6. PREAMPS AND ELECTRONIC ENHANCEMENT......" boom, whack, boom, whack...." Shit...I want " whoom, back, whoom, back....."

7. TASTE....great drums are certainly not without this part.

Tuning

Davedog,
Oh yea, tuning. What post am I in? Sorry it all becomes a blurr after awhile!
I think the conversation in this forum is mics, but that may be my mistake. If someone inquires about tuning, you know Davedog that I will do my best to focus my attention on that.
Lets face it, we need to post a pamphlet that covers it all. That way when someone posts a new post and it is really continuations of others at best or retoric of the same caliber, we can give a link to our pamphlet. Just ranting.

Anyway, you missed my point about using drum mic packages. Oh well.

Actually, I did NOT miss your point about drum mic packages. I agree that they can be very helpful. I own and regularly use an Audix 'D' series mic package. It makes things much easier, but CANNOT replace the quality one can get from a quality source....which YOU seemed to have missed. Its been my point of contention for the 30 years or so of recording experience I have, that throwing MONEY or a selection of GEAR at a problem that is controllable is a waste of energy and resources. So, the point is, YES, you need mics to reproduce the sound of a drumset(if live drums is the ticket)....NO...it wont be any better with this mic or that mic or this mixer or that preamp UNTIL the source becomes better..

As for what the subject matter of this or any post might be, the subjects always seem to wander around a bit and as long as its in the same realm of knowledge, I see no reason to have some kind of strict adherance to form and function. Its kinda like jamming.

Of course, you can disagree, but in order to affect a change in the policy around here, you need to become something more than someone who is constantly shilling their services. (see your signature line)

As a moderator here, I might take exception to this as spamming. However we are a rather loose community and as long as things stay mellow and friendly then its possible to bend the rules and the forms taken in these discussions.

Ranting about things, is a priviledge not to be taken lightly.

Drum Mics/Mixing/Tuning/Positioning etc...

Davedog,
God help us all! I was saying that one post will be about tuninng, the other about mixing, the other about mics, the other about positioning etc... All different threads and throughout the thread the responses touch on all these important areas (Yes Davedog, even your very important point about tuning).
Of course I think tuning is extrememly important. That wasn't my particular piece of information I was trying to get across or sharing at the time. Sometimes you read what others are responding with and instead of hashing over the same old thing, you try to offer different advice.
As far as spamming goes. I always try to help people on this board. I can rant if I want to. I have equally if not more than given my share of advice and help. So what if my signature has a link. That is so inconspicuous and hardly relevent when you consider that I was trying to help someone here up to this point.