are you sure the added drum shell doesn't do anything? I've read some techniques that use additional bass drum shells or floor toms shells as a tunnel with mic at end. I tried this a few years ago, except with a snare drum - it was a pretty nice sound, except...

the drummer hated it :)

oh, and if you have time to experiment, I love pumping the recorded kick track through a speaker and doing crazy things like placing snare drums (with snares on) or sheets of paper or cardboard with coins on them - basically, stuff that vibrates to add a layer of bite to the kick. I once tried pumping it into a piano while holding down (but not playing) the chords in the song - an interesting thing to try maybe... if you are crazy... I dunno if it's a kkiller sound, but you may get killed if your drummer is impatient.

recorderman,

thanks man, do you still feel the need to use a large mic as well (D112, beta 52, etc.) up close along with the woofer?

Originally posted by Bobby Loux:
recorderman,

thanks man, do you still feel the need to use a large mic as well (D112, beta 52, etc.) up close along with the woofer?

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the woofer is only for the sub information...and will probabbly be 10 to 15 db beloe the level of the standard kick mic. Mic as you would with one mic...then add the speaker. Print to separate tracks.

Hi,
Thought I'd throw my setup into the fray.
1. Tuned Kick
2. Tuned Kick
3. Wood Beater
3. Re-20 about halfway inside the kick
4. Orange County Stressor, with Compression set at: Attack, 25ms, Release, .05ms, Ratio about 5:1 and threshold is season to taste. I sometimes gate it as well, but not always necessary.
As everyone has said before, the key is setting your compressor correctly to get a fat sound. I know I said a Tuned Kick twice, but tuning drums is very important for a great sound.

I've also been reading the discussion about using a speaker also. One trick that I've used not for kick, but snare is to take an aux feed from the original snare track and send it to an amp and then to a small speaker. You set the speaker cone side down onto the snare. Then, when the snare send signal hits, it'll trigger the actual snare. I've found that you can mic this to taste, depending on the effect you want, ie - snare wire, distance micing for room effect, etc.. Also, you might try gating the send, so if you have bleed, it won't impose on the snare.
Just some tricks and thoughts.
Brad

Thanks B_Moon

reamping the snare is always a good one.

I myself almost never use gates...just me.

this is a bit different: For a soul / funk session. The drummer had a great Bonham-style kit, 1974 Ludwig with a BIG bass drum. No hole cut. Good player too. So...
Rode classic on Omni, 10 feet back from the kit, at head height facing horizontally i.e at the drummers face, Telefunken V72 preamp, Disa limiter (like a Telefunken) used mildly. Got the whole kit on the one mic, including great fat kick. Eq'd a little with Quad8 graphic boosting at 65 and 160, the mastered the whole mix with a cinema eq (which has very wide bandwith) boosting at 100.
Sounds fantastic - and seconds to set up!

Reminded now to try that speaker as mic thing. Wasn't that first done by Geoff Emerick, on Beatles sessions?

Giles

Originally posted by giles meredith:
Wasn't that first done by Geoff Emerick, on Beatles sessions?

EVERYTHING was first done bt Geoff on a Beatlies session. :p:

as posted by Recorderman

Right on. I rarely use them. I mainly use one for the send going to the speaker in the speaker/snare combo. Seems more defined. Million different ways to record things.. ahhh.. The bliss of experimentation! :D

i keep it simple... i never ever compress the drums when recording. i use a fet 47 and and a neve 1066 mic pre.....that's it.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
I have recently aquired a D6 kick drum mic from Audix.. I love it. I posted a couple of audio clips on the Audio Streaming forum.. a D112 and the D6.. IMO the D6 wins hands down. I prefer to use as few mics as possible on any source. I think multi mic set ups usually don't sound as good as one well placed and chosen mic. Phase issues..

Which can easily be addressed by moving the mics around or by using an IBP from Littlelabs, not a big deal.

The most important thing is a well tuned kit and and drummer that can play, everything else is secondary. I've been putting a D112 inside and a Solidtube on the outside, moving the mics until I get something I like. Check everything in mono to make sure your getting the polarities right and your good to go.

I'm going to try the NS10 thing, sounds like a hoot!

Mark

One thing i have to say about the D112, no matter what mic pre, and no matter what kick drum, it always seems to sound like a basketball bouncing on pavement! :) It has it uses, but i think the Audix mics sound a lot better..

-Jay

Now I'm using a 421 to the left third of the beater and a 112 right out front and wow!!!!

Sennheiser e602 and an AT3035 for a room mic.
A room mic is a must. I'd rather ditch tom mic's.

I'm only 15, but i've have ALOT of good comments about my kick drum sound. I used to use a Shure beta52, but it got stolen about 4 months ago, so now, i'm using a d112 and i love it. I put it on a lo-profile stand, take of the front head of the kick and set the d112 right infront of the kick.

Then i run the mic through a Behringer Composer pro and set a lo threshold with a sharp ratio and Slooooow release time. then i goes into the recorded (fostex VF-16) About the only eq i have to do is boost some highs, because most of the lows are already there. then i blend the overhead mics in to get the kick "Room" sound, that adds a 3d stereo effect and gives it more low-end.

But even though my kick sound is really fat and bassy, it still has a click sound in the hi's which helps it cut through in loud rock mixes (which is mostly what i do)

To here myt kick sound, listen to "Jam" http:// and then my latest one: "The beatiful People"

Cheers!

Zeke

One thing i have to say about the D112, no matter what mic pre, and no matter what kick drum, it always seems to sound like a basketball bouncing on pavement! It has it uses, but i think the Audix mics sound a lot better..

The D112 is a one-trick pony to me on kick. I prefer the ATM25 or RE-20. They tend to be more versatile for different sounds and EQ. The D112 will work on a floor tom rather nicely though.

Originally posted by zeke sayer:
To here myt kick sound, listen to "Jam" http:// and then my latest one: "The beatiful People"

Cheers!

Zeke [/QB]

Pretty cool Zeke.
One comment I have for this and alot of stuff I here coming out of home studios is the overall balance. The individual tones are quite nice, but you need the kick drum to be much louder compared to the rest of the kit.

Hey kiddo,

you have a lot of talent - and the sound is good - but i agree that (and i also am a drummer) the kick has got to come a lot more into the mix.

That having been said - at your age - and level of experience - this is real nice stuff. :tu:

:p:

Rod

The D112 is a one-trick pony to me on kick. I prefer the ATM25 or RE-20. They tend to be more versatile for different sounds and EQ. The D112 will work on a floor tom rather nicely though.

Agreed, I find the RE-20 to sound a little pillowy on kick for the sound I'm usually going for and the ATM25 just doesn't do it for me but I like it on a floor tom just fine. I've also used a 421 on the inside with good results when combined with an outside microphone.

I think the bottom line is that there is no "best kick drum microphone" or "best microphone" just lot's of different options and sounds, nothing sucks or rules it just may not fit into the sound in your head which is all good.

I guess I have a serious problem with anyone who says anything "sucks" or "rules" or they "never" or "always"; I guess because that indicates to me that they are no longer open minded which can kill you very quickly in this profession. :(

Your best friends are accurate monitoring, your ears and your experience. ;)

Mark

Since my last post in this thread, I have had the chance to try an Audix D6 kick drum mic.. WOW! This thing is great! Lots of PHAT, THUMP and SNAP all while NOT sounding like a basit ball...

[ August 20, 2003, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

YEAH! I just had a chance to use the D6 the other day. The band actually owned one, and while I do own a D112, I decided to try theirs out so to not hurt their feelings. actually, they said they had no idea if it was good or not - they only used it to record their demo, which was using a cheap portstudio tape deck, and they might've used it live a few times... but yeah I was also curious.

The back head had no hole, and I knew almost for sure it wasn't gonna work because of the type of sound they are looking for, but I tried it there anyways... It didn't sound very good. BUT, at the beater side at about 4-5 inches away aiming at center, the d6 sounded really great! Even better with all the drum mics on (I use two omni overheads and a setup similar to recorderman's technique. I also had a snare mic, aimed at center of side of shell, 5-6 inches away - the drummer loved this sound the most!)

I"ve tried all kinds of things to get a great kick sound. I've tried U47fets, BeyerM88, Senn. 421, D12e, D112, RE20, Soundelux U95s, SM7, Soundelux U195, Lawson L47mp. And you know what? the best kick drom sound I've ever gotten I got last week. Know what I used? A Beyer soundstar MK1 I paid $25 for on eBay, through an API 312, no compression.

Originally posted by Twist Turner:
And you know what? the best kick drom sound I've ever gotten I got last week. Know what I used? A Beyer soundstar MK1 I paid $25 for on eBay, through an API 312, no compression.

Those are the 421 clones aren't they Twist?

Mark

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
One comment I have for this and alot of stuff I here coming out of home studios is the overall balance. The individual tones are quite nice, but you need the kick drum to be much louder compared to the rest of the kit.

Is there a good sample MP3 floating around here that would demonstrate this point? I'd like to download Zeke's file, then compare it to one with the more prominent kick.

I got nothin to say...just want to see more of my name on this forum index :D

cross-dressing

UUmmm, you got me there Recorderman, I wish you could post a picture for us, this mental image I have isn't working. :s:

:h: Treena

Originally posted by Treena Foster:

cross-dressing

UUmmm, you got me there Recorderman, I wish you could post a picture for us, this mental image I have isn't working. :p

Originally posted by Ryan Powell:

isn't it a big bob rock/randy staub trick to feed the low end of the kit (kick/floor toms) back through some bins into the room while tracking?

That is funny. My guitar player had always mentioned how the kick drum seems to have more "Oomph" on our recordings that I did at practice with the dual 18"s goin on the Kick and 16" floor tom. As I look back and compare "Isolated" tracks vs the tracks with the subs blairing 5 feet away from the kick, the sub tracks do have a well-rounded "Slam" that the isolated tracks are lacking.

I had figured (as an engineer) that the extra SPL would adversely affect the other mics' isolation. WHO CARES! Just send some good low kick frequencies (loose the "Click" to avoid TOO much bleed) and and I guess a certain amount of "Feedback" and sympathetic resonance interaction can do wonders for a huge kick sound.

I have also recently started trying the condenser on the outside for the "Click". It helps, but I think a great sound can still be had with a single KICK mic and a well tuned instrument (Yes, it IS an instrument :p )

I am also moving away from using gates if possible, but compression I find myself using everytime. Maybe I just need to leave this taming for the drum sub-mix compression instead.

Later

I'm sure I went over this earlier but I'm just too lazy to read back more than a couple of pages.
On kick I have loved- ATM25-its the lows I've missed forever
Audix D6..or the D4 works well in combination as the close mic(da klik)
PE20...someone mentioned pillowy.Great analogy.Sometimes its what you want.
MD421...just about perfect though a little loud in the mids(could have been the placement or the tuning)
and now my ALL TIME FAVORITE
(drum roll please...uhh wait till I move my head outta da drum willya!!)
The VEnerAble D12.
And a close second would be the MD409 right on the beater in an 18" jazz cocktail set played like a rocknfricknroll set.It was sweet.We had a Md441 on the outside of the kick facing the back of the drum a foot in front...wish I could get that one again...people would pay A LOT of money to use it.

I've tried many things, some that have worked and others that didn't but I've never found I've ever needed anything other than a 421 to get the job done. And ya, it has little more mid than low end, but that is easily fixed with a decent eq like a Pultec or Pultec clone, Manley Massive Passive, API or 1073/1081.

Hi guys...
I use an AKG D112 through an Avalon vt737 in the middle of the BD. Depending on the BD i use Waves Renaiscence Bass around 68/75Hz to boost a little low end.
And sometimes i do some EQ at 8/9k a little to add some "bright" to the sound.

and of course the Room mic ( my case is 2 AKG 414 ) is a BIG part of the final drum sound

if anyone wanna hear a drum kit sound i recorded take a look at:

http://www.viasomestudio.com/beto_kaiser_o_cachorro.mp3

Cheers..
PG

recorderman a crossdresser? wow!!!
Is it carnival time?
A friend of mine dressed as the Wonder Woman -lol
(jokes)

Once I read that the best kick drum sample one can capture is achieved with the foot slapping the old Volkswagen (Fusca) floor -lol

LOL... mocassins hitting the floor next to the brake pedal actually sounds a LOT like the 4kHz click you get from the D112.

Any ideas on how to mic this? Kurt?

Originally posted by falkon2:
LOL... mocassins hitting the floor next to the brake pedal actually sounds a LOT like the 4kHz click you get from the D112.

Any ideas on how to mic this? Kurt?

I bet I could duplicate it with a cheap China mic and a blown up paper bag. Just record the pop and add low freq from a Mackie!