Keep the 58 then? When you try your 4000 on your voice do you like that sound? If not, why? You can certainly spend more money than the 58, but if the sound works for you, what are you trying to achieve? If you want the same sound, then the condensers aren't going to help very much. Your room noises I assume you are controlling by making sure they are in the rear null of the 58? If you go hyper cardioid, then you'll get a narrower acceptance angle at the front but have multiple rear lobes, which may make your noise issue worse?

what are you hoping to improve?

Shure SM 7a or SM 7b ... 58 on steroids.

If you are doing rap, the last mic I would choose would be one of those Beyers...I own an M69 ( the precursor to the TG69) and on the right source (voice) it is very nice. I have other Beyers and have used the M88. All sound wonderful.
But the powers-to-be at Beyer decided a little while back to "upgrade" the metal mesh windscreens on some of their models, including the M69TG and the M88TG. They did this with a more "open mesh" that results in decreased 'pop' and 'blast' protection of the dynamic elements. There are now many complaints online regarding DEAD M88s from kick drum mic'ing where the windgusts from the drum eventually killed the element. And nothing from Beyer gets repaired cheaply. I can't tell you how many Beyers have broken my heart by dying on the job from stupid engineering decisions (theirs, not mine!). I'm just grateful tht they haven't "upgraded" the M201 in tht manner :)
Quite frankly, a 58 is hard to beat for the applications you cited. Is the 4000B too 'sibilant' (emphasized 'sssssss' sounds)for your voice? But you still want the voice detail a condenser provides? The 58's big brother , the SM7B may be a better suit, as long as you have a good preamp with at least 65dB. It has the same basic element as the 58 but even better pop/blast protection, and because of its' upgraded transformer and the way the element is mounted inside, the clarity and detail have a slight edge over the 58. Once again, gotta have a good pre on that mic, the 7b isn't as "hot" as the others.
You mentioned choral singing, and if you're doing some recording of ensembles like that, the 4000 might still be worth keeping around. Remember that you can NEVER have too many mics onhand...LOL!

I have a good preamp on my motu audio express
I just spent a couple hours on the akg c4000b trynna figure out how to use it for my vocals. I can't sing or rap on it, it's just the opposite of me for that purpose. I'll use it for my voice acting...
I'm listening hard to what your saying about the sure 7b and I've had it recommended to me before. Why would it do better than the ksm9?
I think I need a mic that really effects my voice and cuts out and smooths out the pitchiness and scratchiness on my finicky voice (maybe I suck who knows)
You can check out my aesop rock cover at

[MEDIA=soundcloud]david-tripp-3

I need something to make me sound more musical, softer and less harsh.

maybe I should just go for the opposite of the akg c4000.

You like the close in warmth of the 58? You need to tell us what it does badly for you. Don't forget condensers are very clean and revealing, so instead of perhaps concealing some of your voice minus points, they'll reveal them? The SM7 just isn;t very popular here in the UK, so I've never used one, although people constantly bang on about how good they are. Maybe one day I'll find one. It does seem that what you want is something you can touch your lips to, and bellow a lot. That's really not going to keep a condenser happy.

paulears, post: 424847, member: 47782 wrote: You like the close in warmth of the 58? You need to tell us what it does badly for you. Don't forget condensers are very clean and revealing, so instead of perhaps concealing some of your voice minus points, they'll reveal them? The SM7 just isn;t very popular here in the UK, so I've never used one, although people constantly bang on about how good they are. Maybe one day I'll find one. It does seem that what you want is something you can touch your lips to, and bellow a lot. That's really not going to keep a condenser happy.

It just cuts out and makes this radio sounding pop sound. I was hoping for something that clips my voice smoother. Also it sounds a little cheap with its' range.

The SM7b takes a BUNCH of gain to hit its sweet spot, you'll need something with loads of clean gain. Have you considered a large diaphragm dynamic, like the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://heilsound.co…"]Heil PR40[/]="http://heilsound.co…"]Heil PR40[/] for instance? Easily within your price range, a great all-around mic for kick, bass, electric guitar, broadcast, voice-over.

moonbaby, post: 424841, member: 22944 wrote: If you are doing rap, the last mic I would choose would be one of those Beyers...I own an M69 ( the precursor to the TG69) and on the right source (voice) it is very nice. I have other Beyers and have used the M88. All sound wonderful.
But the powers-to-be at Beyer decided a little while back to "upgrade" the metal mesh windscreens on some of their models, including the M69TG and the M88TG. They did this with a more "open mesh" that results in decreased 'pop' and 'blast' protection of the dynamic elements. There are now many complaints online regarding DEAD M88s from kick drum mic'ing where the windgusts from the drum eventually killed the element. And nothing from Beyer gets repaired cheaply. I can't tell you how many Beyers have broken my heart by dying on the job from stupid engineering decisions (theirs, not mine!). I'm just grateful tht they haven't "upgraded" the M201 in tht manner :)
Quite frankly, a 58 is hard to beat for the applications you cited. Is the 4000B too 'sibilant' (emphasized 'sssssss' sounds)for your voice? But you still want the voice detail a condenser provides? The 58's big brother , the SM7B may be a better suit, as long as you have a good preamp with at least 65dB. It has the same basic element as the 58 but even better pop/blast protection, and because of its' upgraded transformer and the way the element is mounted inside, the clarity and detail have a slight edge over the 58. Once again, gotta have a good pre on that mic, the 7b isn't as "hot" as the others.
You mentioned choral singing, and if you're doing some recording of ensembles like that, the 4000 might still be worth keeping around. Remember that you can NEVER have too many mics onhand...LOL!

"provide +60 dB and +22 dB of boost, respectively, for the mic (XLR"
is that enough to get the 7b?

JustOneMIc, post: 424870, member: 48860 wrote: "provide +60 dB and +22 dB of boost, respectively, for the mic (XLR"
is that enough to get the 7b?

M-Audio gives two versions of the spec for the mic gain: "These knobs provide +60 dB and +22 dB of boost, respectively, for the mic (XLR) and instrument (TRS) input jacks" and "The XLR mic input and the TRS instrument input are equipped with 60 dB and 22 dB of trim control, respectively." About all you can get from these is that the XLR microphone input may have 60dB of gain, but bear in mind that these are digital controls rather than analog pots, so my guess is that there will be only a few actual analog gain values and then multiplication of the digitised signal to fill in the rest. There are no noise figures given in the spec, but using part analog and part digital multiplication does not bode well in terms of noise at the higher gains.

It's likely that 60dB would be enough for close-miked singing into an SM7B, but just remember that the MOTU box may be noisy when running at levels near maximum gain.

JustOneMIc, post: 424844, member: 48860 wrote: I'm listening hard to what your saying about the sure 7b and I've had it recommended to me before. Why would it do better than the ksm9?
I think I need a mic that really effects my voice and cuts out and smooths out the pitchiness and scratchiness on my finicky voice

Surely there are a bunch of great music stores in a city the size of Toronto, where you could go compare some mics in-person, right?

I'm not sure the SM7b is a move in the right direction for you, the vocals in your recordings actually sounded somewhat muffled to me already - and the SM7b may only make that worse. If you find a mic that can correct 'pitchiness', please let us know.

JustOneMIc, post: 424844, member: 48860 wrote: I have a good preamp on my motu audio express

Well, I wouldn't call them good. They are ok and may work fine with hi level mics. But when it comes to quiet ones like sm58, 57, sm7, I wouldn't bet my house on them.
I'd seriouly research Hi-end preamps. You'd be amaze to hear your sm58 with a Millennia or even a more affordable Focusrite ISA one (which many Rap signers like).

I don't think the sm7 is right for me now after having listened to it on youtube.
I like the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://heilsound.co…"]Heil PR40[/]="http://heilsound.co…"]Heil PR40[/]. I might end up getting that if you can't think of a reason not to.

Can you guys think of a condenser mic that's different from the akg for me to consider? Looking for something that really colors the voice.

Actually I'm just outside toronto so its a bit of a trip for me.
The guy at the music store told me not to plug pre amps into my interface just buy an interface for quality sound. Disagree?
Anyway, no pre amps for now guys, just shopping for a mic next month. I'll see if the music store has the ones I want.

JustOneMIc, post: 424903, member: 48860 wrote: Can you guys think of a condenser mic that's different from the akg for me to consider? Looking for something that really colors the voice.

Behringer C-1

JustOneMIc, post: 424903, member: 48860 wrote: The guy at the music store told me not to plug pre amps into my interface just buy an interface for quality sound. Disagree?

the guy at the music store will never steer you wrong.

My Heil PR-40 was acquired for voiceover work, but it is really relegated to kick drums these days. It is fairly sensitive to plosives so be careful of how you work it. The PR-30 and the PR-35 (also have) might be a better choice, especially if ambient noise is an issue ( the PR35, that is).
My guitar shop dude suggested that the PR-30 sounded very "ribbon-like"...he also said that he ran his Dodge over it more than 7 times and it never even dented the thing!

I called the music store and they told me that I need a transformer to add more color to my voice.

Now I'm looking at this miktek p5 which seems pretty cool for around 700 - 800 canadian.
its a stage condenser mic.
stage condensers don't do too badly in noisy rooms at home do they?

JustOneMIc, post: 424903, member: 48860 wrote: The guy at the music store told me not to plug pre amps into my interface just buy an interface for quality sound. Disagree?
Anyway, no pre amps for now guys, just shopping for a mic next month. I'll see if the music store has the ones I want.

If fact, if your room isn't threated, that SM58 is one of the best mic to have because it will pick less of the room, more of the source.
Check the ISA one, it is transformer based and you can get a converter option to it.

That being said, you won't be sure what your voice need before you try many mics and many pre.
If you want to make an educated decision. Go to a pro studio book for an hour or two and track your voice through as many combinaison that you can. Make the tech identify each take and go back home with those files. Listen to them on many systems, it's the best way to avoid blind purchases. ;)

So do performance mic's fair better than others in small rooms for recording?

Most cardioid dynamic mics have better side and back rejection and a narrower front sensibility. On stage, they perform well by avoiding feedbacks but in a small unthreated room they do a great job at not picking too much of room noises, flutter echo and unpleasing reverb. Your best bet would be to fix those room defects to open up your options. With a good sounding room, any mic and sources will sound good (well at least without the room being in the way).
But I know that when recording at home or in an appartement, it's not always possible to threat the room we're in. There is some trick that can help tho, puting thick draps on the walls or putting up the mattress behind us. you could sing in front of a closet full of clothes, etc...

So you have to decide how sound quality is important to you and how much you are willing to invest (time and money) to achieve the sound you want.
Dynamic mics will sound very differently depending on the preamp's quality and I recommand the ISA one as a starter. I doubt any audio interface's preamps under 1500 will sound better with a sm58 or 57 and specially with an sm7. The ISA offer a clean 80db of power and can be taken seriously even at 500$
If only the motu audio express could have a spdif input compatible with the ISA one digital option, it could be a blast. But using it with the line in of the motu should give you good results. And the good thing is, when ever you get to a good sounding room it will perform wonderfully with condenser mics and ribbons as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling you the ISA, their is a ton of other pristine pre, it's just that this one is not so expensive... (I have 2 ISA two, btw)

JustOneMIc, post: 424932, member: 48860 wrote: So do performance mic's fair better than others in small rooms for recording?

It depends on what you are recording, and, the room you are recording in. Condensers have a tendency to be much more sensitive to acoustic instruments and vocals, but they are also more sensitive to extraneous noises as well - like the reverberations in a room for example - whereas dynamics tend to be less sensitive to this.

Dynamics generally require more gain to run at their optimum than condensers do.

The preamp you choose will make all the difference in the world - both good and bad. Cheap mic preamps will make great mics sound average, and average mics sound less than average.

To the contrary, a great preamp will make great mics sound fantastic, and average mics sound great. ;)

I guess what I'm suggesting is that if you buy a nice condenser mic and put it through a cheap pre, that you are defeating the purpose of havig a good mic. You will only ever sound as good as the wekest link in your chain, and preamps aren't a part of that link that you want to be the weakest.

Given the choice, I'd rather have a great preamp and an average mic, than have a great mic and a cheap preamp. ;)

FWIW

A couple of years back I had a call from a performer I knew vaguely who asked if I could mix some tracks he had recorded for a demo EP. He cited the name of another performer whose demo EP I had recorded and mixed and who had got a contract, probably on the basis of his EP. This guy wanted his to sound like that. I was dubious, partly because he had done his own recording, but primarily that he told me he had rented a "great mic" for the duration of the recordings. I rather grudgingly said if he came along with the raw tracks I would give them a listen but not make any commitments until I had done that.

It turned out that the "great mic" he had rented was a U87, so it was hard to fault him there, but it went downhill fast after that point. He had an old-ish PT system with whatever entry-level hardware was supplied at the time (an M-Audio box), and had recorded himself and his friends one track at a time in his bedroom with no acoustic treatment of any sort. The results were terrible. You could just about hear the quality of the mic coming through on some tracks, but the M-Audio pre-amp couldn't deal with it properly and the room reverb wrecked everything, not to mention the headphone bleed. The icing on the cake was that he had kept the mic in the same position for each performer except the acoustic guitar, so the room reflections were not even diluted by having different wavelengths being reinforced and cancelled. There was also the point I have made several times in these forums that, whatever the quality of the mic and other gear, using the same mic and hence having the same sonic signature on every track results in a very tiring mix.

I had to make suitable excuses and decline the offer to mix his material. He had completely wasted the hire fees on the microphone.

someday i'll get a good pre amp... i actually just bought this one.
Okay, I'm cancelling everything and I'm just going to get either a
ev 20 or ev 27 for my vocal work primarily. Until I can afford a better pre amp and dynamic someday.
Any opinions on which? I'll go try them out first.
I must have enough gain on the current pre amp i'm using for that at least right? What about those pre amp cheats that you plug into the mic to add gain? Are those a pox on the house of pre amps?

I'd say the ev 27

JustOneMIc, post: 424971, member: 48860 wrote: I must have enough gain on the current pre amp i'm using for that at least right?

It's not really only about enough gain but much more about how the gain translate the sound and create the sound texture. If I would put an audio Buddy and a Millennia preamp/with a good converter to achieve the same record levels, they would both use the same gain power but the sound will be very different. (with good monitoring and ear training of course)

You should choose between the RE20 and RE27 based purely on what it does for your voice. The relatively low output of these mics and the sensitivity difference between them can be taken care of by a Cloudlifter ot other gain booster before feeding your pre-amp. As we implied earlier, you really do not want to be running your M-Audio pre-amp at maximum gain.

If at some later date you are in a postion to consider buying a higher-quality pre-amp/interface, you will probably be able to let the Cloudlifter go, depending on what you choose. Think of the Cloudlifter as a small additional outlay that allows you to stage your purchases in a meaningful way.