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anonymous 11 March 2003

Hello,

A rather extensive question for those who might have the time/interest/inclination (of course I understand this seems too involved--I realize many here have more experince than I):

I would like to set up a home studio in an apartment for the purpose of creating high quality demos of songs based around acoustic guitar and voice, also incorporating bass, drums, keys, strings on many of the songs, which will typically also involve 3-4 part vocal harmonies.

My knowledge is perhaps a step above basic. I've been recording for many years, as an avocation, with little knowledge however of equipment. I began in the era of multitrack cassette, and my recording deck is a Yamaha MTX-8 8 track cassette, which I am willing to replace with a digital if it will give me better recording quality/flexibility. However, I have little knowledge of the advantages/use of digital recording. I use an old 1980s Roland drum machine.
I know of MIDI but do not know/understand as yet how to incorporate it in recording (I have a vague suspicion that shifting to computer-based recording would expand flexibility and precision, but do not know as yet how to create a rudimentary set up, etc.).

That having been said:

What would any of you regard as basic components that would constitute a home studio for high quality demos of the type described above? I suspect there are many choices, so, if inclined, please feel free to offer any opinions on particular components re:

Recorder--digital or analog
Mixer
Vocal and instrument mics
Effects to sonically manipulate/ punch up vocal and guitar
Drum sounds

I am budgeting between 3-5000 for the entire set up.

I recognize that I may have excluded many basic components necessary to get high quality sound here, and would welcome any additions that the more experienced would regard as necessary or useful.

Any descriptions of such a basic setup in terms of the items needed, and particular models woul would recommend, as well as compatibilities of each component with the rest, would be high appreciated.

For those who regard this questions as possibly too much in one bite, or redundant, my apologies.

Very Best,

Alan Lipman

Comments

Ethan Winer Mon, 03/17/2003 - 07:35

Kurt,

> Most the Dells and Gateways come equipped with video cards that tax the system <

My Dell came with a middle of the road card, which I did remove because I already had a Matrox dual-head. Two things are important with video cards: 1) set the color depth to 16 bits because more is not necessary and slows things down, and 2) disable bus mastering if the card's driver allows that.

> they load windows in for you but you don’t get a copy for reinstalls. <

I don't know if that's true anymore. My Dell came with an original Windows XP CD, and last week I helped a client install Windows from scratch on his new Dell and it too came with an original CD.

> Opus has forgotten about more about computers than Ethan or I know collectively. <

I don't know how much Opus knows, but you don't know how much I know either. :)

--Ethan

Opus2000 Mon, 03/17/2003 - 18:52

Wow Kevin
I hate to say this but you brought this discussion to the point of where it by showing some arrogance to yourself.

I don't mean to be snide or arrogant but maybe it's you who should do your homework.

First off, Glyph....constant trouble. Always having to send the drive into them to get the data repaired or the drive repaired. Having worked for Sweetwater Technical support a year and a half, I mostly did Glyph tech support, or more so calling them up to get the customers straightened away.

Yes, they have great ideas and some great products but the failure ratio was too high for me

Second, did you know that Macs only have ONE ATA 100 controller and the other is ATA66? All PC's have ATA133 now on BOTH controllers.
Did you know that Macs only have one controller chip? PC's have two with a higher front side bus for a better throughput control over each part of the system.

Yes, Macs where definitely there in the beginning and shone through and as Fats pointed out PC's became just as powerful not too long ago.

Did you also know that in order to get 100 tracks of audio playing on a Mac you have to send thet data to two drives?

PC's just need one.
Universal Music Production group uses only PC's and you know what, 150+ tracks. Yes, I'm also one of their sub contracted computer techs!

You can't come in to a place like this and expect to say something so silly and not get flamed for it.

Ethan, myself and others have a TON of experience on PC's and we have all at one time gotten off the Mac bandwagon. I think for us it's a challenge as Macs are just too simplistic. I like complex things as my brain is challenged more.
I can't deal with things that are just too simple. It's boring!

There are plenty of reasons why you would want to go PC vs Mac. But as many have already stated...use what you are comfortable with.

Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful but learn to think before shooting your mouth off.

Chris and or moderator of this forum please feel free to move this to the computing section if you so desire!!

Cheers and sorry about the rant but it gets me so hard when people don't think

Opus :roll:

anonymous Mon, 03/17/2003 - 21:30

Yo Opuss,

I just gave a opinion and others seem to have a chip on their shoulders and may be a little insecure about there systems. Like having a little prick, in your side, lol. As for the flame job.....bro.....you need to switch to decafe. This has been beat to death, I really don't care to hear anymore. I like my MAC's, period.

Peace Out,

P.S. You need to be on that MAC/Protools -vs- PC/Cubase thread. You could really get crazy, haha.

knightfly Mon, 03/17/2003 - 22:48

I have just officially tallied up the responses in this flame war, and the winner is...

ATARI - YEAHHHHH !!!!!

Now, chilluns, dring your warm milk and cookies and go to bed - the truth is, ALL computers suck, but we're either stuck with them or a GROSSLY higher budget for the REAL stuff... Steve

(Now, will somebody please CLOSE this stupid thread before I puke?) Thanks...

audiokid Tue, 03/18/2003 - 00:31

Well, I could have closed this topic and now that Opus has chimed in to shed some more light I'm glad I didn't. I think I'll start listening a little closer to PC land. Could it be that Macs are dated and I've had my :eek:

Time to leave the guns at the door, pull up a chair, have a beer and listen with an open mind.

:c:

Here's something to lighten up the room.

(Dead Link Removed)

Ethan Winer Tue, 03/18/2003 - 09:13

Opus,

> Ethan, myself and others have a TON of experience on PC's and we have all at one time gotten off the Mac bandwagon. <

You must have read through the posts too quickly! I am not a Mac fan. I've never owned a Mac nor would I ever want to. I'm a PC guy through and through. My comment was only in reponse to Kurt saying, not once but twice, that he and I know relatively little about PCs. Kurt should speak for himself only!

I was a contributing editor for PC magazine for many years, and I wrote two programming books with one a best seller translated to four other languages. I also founded a software company that sold assembly language routines to other programmers - stuff that was too difficult for most programmers to handle. My recent three-part series in Keyboard magazine presented an in-depth explanation of all manner of PC optimization issues. I say all this not to brag, but because it's obvious Kurt has never read my bio!

--Ethan

gdoubleyou Wed, 03/19/2003 - 14:34

Hi I'm new!

I do harware/software consulting for audio/video.
And I own both platforms.

It depends on the person, If they already know PC I tell them to stay with it.

PC's require more technical knowledge, and that knowledge takes time to sink in, and aquire.

If the person is more artsy-fartsy I suggest a Mac, or a stand alone DAW. From my experience, if software/hardware will work on one Mac, most of the time it will work on any Mac.

It's a time vs money equation. Time spent learning how to build a PC, and researching hardware combinations.

Money spent up front on a Mac vs less time spent on research and platform skill building.

Everbody has to do the equation for themselves.

Is Pro Tools expensive? What other business can you get into for less than $10,000 that could give you six-figure earning potential.

So the answer is it's a personal preference. You can get work done on either platform.

For my business it became obvious that the clientale I wanted service,(people with budget)were Mac-centric, and had no plans on changing.
To get work I had to have Mac knowledge.

It was an awakening for a confirmed PC bigot.
:D

Pez Thu, 03/20/2003 - 07:43

Crap, I thought I was "the man". What does a guy have to do to get his ego stroked around here? At least Ethan was lumped in with the guys that don't know as much lol. :D

From Opus:I like complex things as my brain is challenged more.
I can't deal with things that are just too simple. It's boring!

I glad you said this. I thought I was the only insane one who felt this way. I love problem solving. Hey, when everything is running smoothly it's time to load up a new device or program so I can get back to the head scratchin'.

Ethan Winer Thu, 03/20/2003 - 10:43

John,

> At least Ethan was lumped in with the guys that don't know as much lol. :D <

Last month I cudnt even spel akustic and now I are won.

> I love problem solving. Hey, when everything is running smoothly it's time to load up a new device or program so I can get back to the head scratchin'. <

I don't like dumbed down stuff either, but geez, I dunno if I can agree about making things extra complicated on purpose! :D

--Ethan

anonymous Thu, 03/20/2003 - 23:57

Thanks for the reply. This is a good idea, I think. So here it goes:

I've been recording on cassette multitrack for about 10 years; most of this time was on a Tascam 4-track, and for the past few years on a Yamaha 8-track. Most avocational, although my interest is serious, and I suppose, some what specific and requiring flexibility.

I have about 140 songs that I have recorded in 4 or 8-track versions. They tend to range from singer-songwriter acoustic stuff to a much wider range, requiring fuller orchestration, lots of vocal overdubs, and a fair amount of effects.

My own "technique" has not been based on much knowledge of mics, specs, etc. I bought a couple of all-purpose mics, plugged into the inputs, and tried to mix it to the sounds I was looking for. While these provided some personal pleasure, I'd really like to try to get these songs to high/professional quality, and to have the knowledge and flexibility to be able to record 'em as I hear them in my head.

In terms of preference, I tend to be a fast learner, and would, I think, not be frustrated by learning the computer route, and would likely see some benefits, if the flexibility is greater.

I know virtually nothing about mics, but know that I need to be able to create a crisp, high quality vocal sound that I can also manipulate, and to be able to substantially improve the acoustic guitar sound which tends to be flat with the dimarzio pickup straight into the recorder--and would like to be able to have alot of range here as well.

So, I suppose I am looking for a good deal of sonic flexibility and range with vocals and with acoustic, and also with ability to create various orchestrations and "sonic environment" if that makes sense.

I think the idea of building up component by component, based on the sound/ability/flexibility/range that I'm looking for, as you suggest, is exactly right. So I wonder what stand alone systems, or, via the computer route, which computer, and then mics, fx, software, etc. might create the most useable system for these goals.

Thanks again. I hope this clarifies the task, and I appreciate any further ideas regarding stand alone, computers, components, etc. that any of you might have.

Very Sincerely,

Alan J. Lipman

Originally posted by K-Sound Studios:
Wow! Mac.. PC ... I think this is missing the mark for the requested info from Doc.

So you don't endlessly just spend money thinking it's equipment that cures problems .. let's start with the concept that knowing how to use what you have comes from reading,experience, and the trial and error road of personal taste.

Here is my thoughts to anyone looking to get into recording:

1. Do you have any experience with mics, tape, computers, etc .. if so .. what is it?

2. Based upon the level of your experience and what you think you want to do, then equipment can be suggested... and actually in a kind of orderly fashion too, so that you learn what to do with each piecs you buy, and why you need it.

3. So, in Doc's case, if I assume that he knows what each type of mic pattern is, and why to pick one over the other, AND I assume that Doc has recorded something on some format before, and that's why he has "The Bug" .. my next question would be:

4. Do you prefer using you mouse, keyboard, and monitor as a tool in recording, or both of your hands at once, while not squinting at a display?
Either is fine, and either will get you to some end result .. depending on what you know and what your experience is.

5. Would you prefer to view different screens to access tracks, effects, and dynamic processing, or would you prefer knobs to twist?

6. Once the above is established, thinking about the WAY you would ENJOY doing this, then the rest is a matter of budget, and that highly dependent upon the number of tracks that you might record at the same time (ie: 2-4 tracks as opposed to say .. 12-18 at once).

You could easily buy a small mixer, adats, or small digital mixer and 24 track hd stand alone recorder, and then a few "flexible use" mics .. ones that would work well for vocals and accoustic guitar ... my 2 cents is, tell us what you have done that you like, and then I think you'll get even better info than what has been posted so far. I'm sure everyone will help, and many good points will come up, but in the end, it should be based upon the way you would truly enjoy doing it.

lambchop Fri, 03/21/2003 - 05:47

I know virtually nothing about mics, but know that I need to be able to create a crisp, high quality vocal sound that I can also manipulate, and to be able to substantially improve the acoustic guitar sound which tends to be flat with the dimarzio pickup straight into the recorder--and would like to be able to have alot of range here as well.

Doc, I'm sure that anyone of the guys here has a lot of invaluable information based on experience that they can share with you. But if you would like a simple introductory primer on mikes and mike technique the people over at http://www.taxi.com have a little freeware program available for downloading entitled, The Studio Buddy. You might want to get it for yourself as a reference source (I really hope I didn't step on anyone's toes here).

Opus2000 Sun, 03/30/2003 - 05:50

wow, ya know I need to come to RO more often than I am able to again! lol
I feel so lout of touch with you all now! :(

Ethan, my bad, I thought for sure you had at one point done some mac work...I'm glad to hear you are on my side...the dark side as the Mac users call it ! hee hee!

It's funny, I have converted some serious Mac advocates to use only PC's now. They can't imagine trying to record and create music on a Mac anymore.

Yes, they still love the Macs but they see them as slow.

Anyways, defacing macs are great! It's fun!

Also, Ethan, c'mon? You don't like to purposely create a challenge?!! HA HA HA HA HA HA! Just kidding!

I beta test all the time so it's in my nature to do so. I'm a glutton for punishment.

Chris,
You want a review of some sort from Ethan and I?
That would be interesting!!!

Ethan,
Care to but heads(OUCH!) and see what we could come up with?
Email me, garyb@opusaudioprojects.net

Well, there's too much already said so I'll leave it at that.
I'm about to post a new thread on some new stuff out there today so come on and join in on it!

Cheers

Opus

Opus2000 Sun, 03/30/2003 - 08:45

Ethan
No, not butt heads as in that type of butt heads...collaboration type of butting heads..in other words, joining forces so to speak!

Sorry if that came across in the wrong way or not! :D

Anyhue, I'm just going on what Chris(aka audiokid) brought about. The idea of the two of us doing some article or the likes there of for RO!!!

Peace

Opus

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