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anonymous 22 August 2010

Just got a AKG perception 220 an cant make my mind up about a Mogami studio cable or a Monster P500 cable if anyone knows what would be the better cable id appreciate the advice.

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Big K Wed, 08/25/2010 - 09:27

If you get a chance then demo a Vovox microphon cable.
It is the only cable of quite a number I tested ( and bought half a dozen ) that improves the sound of, I guess, any mic.
I never believed it till I heard it, together with 17 rather sceptical Senior engineers and Tonmeisters.
There is a lot of discussion out there about cable & sound... but I suggest just try it...
IDK how they do it, but it works...

BobRogers Thu, 08/26/2010 - 03:38

There are four clearly distinguishable differences between cables:
1. Shielding
2. Durability
3. Ergonomics (how the cord feels, wraps, lays on the floor)
4. Price
Generally all good cables do well on 1 and 2, so you choose based on 3 and 4.

As far as sound goes the null hypothesis is that there is absolutely no audible difference between cables. If that is false, it should be easy to prove. You just do a blind ABX test and show statistically significant differences between identification of the cables. This would be easy to set up and would not require expensive equipment beyond what people usually have in a recording studio or audio lab. If anyone can point me to such tests between any brands of cables with any group of listeners, I'd be interested. I have to believe that every major cable manufacturer has done such a test. For some reason they don't feel it is to their advantage to use the results in their advertising.

MadMax Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:18

All things considered...

Mogami, Canare, Gepco, and REDCO are all top to upper shelf cable. You need to learn to fix your own anyway... so buy bulk, and make your own as needed.

I'm not a shill for either one, but check out Have Inc and REDCO. Good folks... good pricing... good products, and I've purchased from both.

audiokid Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:53

BobRogers, post: 352939 wrote: There are four clearly distinguishable differences between cables:
1. Shielding
2. Durability
3. Ergonomics (how the cord feels, wraps, lays on the floor)
4. Price
Generally all good cables do well on 1 and 2, so you choose based on 3 and 4.

As far as sound goes the null hypothesis is that there is absolutely no audible difference between cables. If that is false, it should be easy to prove. You just do a blind ABX test and show statistically significant differences between identification of the cables. This would be easy to set up and would not require expensive equipment beyond what people usually have in a recording studio or audio lab. If anyone can point me to such tests between any brands of cables with any group of listeners, I'd be interested. I have to believe that every major cable manufacturer has done such a test. For some reason they don't feel it is to their advantage to use the results in their advertising.

Love your top 4 list Bob! So true. We should try and find some solid proof. I've never used VOVOX but everyone that has, claims they definitely hear a difference. How they feel and lay is something I forgot to ask.

Big K, how did Bob's 3 and 4 measure up?
For Accursound, all 4 came out on top on a pretty deep debate over at PSW. When mine arrive, I'll definitely let us all know.

audiokid Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:11

Sorry if I'm side railing this topic but it has evolved into different opinions of cable, one that I'm particularly interested in and investing in at this time.
I tend to agree that the sonic differences between one good cable company and another may not matter after a point, that Bob's top 4 list with 3 and 4 taking priority to the buying factor makes total sense. Spending big bucks on high end cable like VOVOX, or even some of the others mentioned for a low end home studio is really senseless. It could be that they may even add noise because you are using other poor gear...
I have 20 year old mogami mic cable that is still around. But, for me, I definitely want the edge because I am investing in high end ITB and OTB so its more important, and a thrill to get the best I can afford. I'm also very interested in sharing my opinions based on what I believe in from reading the forums over the years here and use personally. My opinions could come across as shilling, but I really am only seeking out gear I want in my well planned hybrid studio at this point in my life. I have the opportunity to get a lot of the pro audio gear out there because I own this site, but choose only to use and focus on what I think is good for me for the direction I am heading and feel music is heading at this point in history. Thought I'd share that for those wondering, since I am the owner of this site. Anyway, here's an interesting thread about VOVOX:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundons…"]Forum - GENERAL DISCUSSIONS : Music Recording Technology[/]="http://www.soundons…"]Forum - GENERAL DISCUSSIONS : Music Recording Technology[/]

Big K Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:31

As I said, the debates about cables and sound are endless. In Nuendo forum there is approx. 400 posts topic which dealt with that...
I just turned 50 and I am musician for 36 years and professionally into electronics since 1976. I've seen and heard a lot and most of it was hoax or extremely exaggerated. We have done a scrutinising blind test in a friends excellent studio, cheating was impossible with 18 seasoned engineers and prizewinners watching every line, move and setting. Not one ! said he didn't hear it.. everytime when switching forth and back! All of them could hear an improvement. Same with the instrument cable.

Cables are different. And when doing a cancellation test ( as exact as it gets) the signal from a Mogami and the Vovox did not cancel out!
The vovox transmitted some other (more) bass frequencies and a nice section on the higher end more, too. The overall level of the received signal was slightly higher, as well. Since there is no active electronic inside the cable it must be the material or the treatment they sure keep as a secret. Tell you what, I don't care as long as I can hear it.

The cable is covered with a fabricmash. It is very well build and should be good for many years of studio work. They use Neutrik plugs and the handling is slightly different from standart cables with rubber/plastic coating , but certainly no show stopper...

There are multicores out , now, too. Maybe next year...
The price, well, not cheap, but well worth the costs. Considering the help it gives you with EQing and the overall improvement of the sound it is still justifiable to spend those bucks on it... Dirk Brauner took it as cable comming with his microphones...for good reasons..

I am just not all that sure with their power cords ... lol...
Here some Thomann online store prices...

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.thomann…"]Search Results - Page 1 - U.K. International Cyberstore[/]="http://www.thomann…"]Search Results - Page 1 - U.K. International Cyberstore[/]

I just read quickly through the link you gave us.
It is amazing how similar all the post about this topic are. Some never accept what others hear and don't agree on testing methods or findings... This is eternally anal, all the time..and tiring.
I have shielded and unschielded ones and neither has any problems with IR, but if you hold your cell-phone near it and push the preamp up high, there might tbe something you can hear... Yaaawwwnnnn..
And for some this being different is better and for some it is just...different...so what....
After all, there IS a difference and that is heavy argument is this discussion, which I will end for me, now...
You be the judge of better or not better sound, using your own setup and ears...

BobRogers Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:50

Sorry Big K, but a single-blind A/B test with a group response - and the group made up of people with their professional reputation on the line - is a pretty good recipe for confirmation bias. (You think that any audio professional is going to admit that he can't hear something that "everyone else" hears?) I've seen a lot of tests like this fall apart when replaced with a double blind A/B/X test. There may well be a difference, but I'll believe it when I see a real scientifically valid test.

Big K Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:34

BobRogers, post: 352961 wrote: Sorry Big K, but a single-blind A/B test with a group response - and the group made up of people with their professional reputation on the line - is a pretty good recipe for confirmation bias. (You think that any audio professional is going to admit that he can't hear something that "everyone else" hears?) I've seen a lot of tests like this fall apart when replaced with a double blind A/B/X test. There may well be a difference, but I'll believe it when I see a real scientifically valid test.

---------------------------

See? That is what I mean...
It is inconceivable to some that a person or a group can notice a difference without being impaired by group respose or "something the brain does" to him.
As I said, there are measerable differences and I hear those as better sounding... so did this group of engineers, every single one man enough to stand up and say : Hoax!! I don't hear it...
In fact, most of them just waited impatiently to tear the Vovox representativ apart and send him back to Swizzerland tarred and feathered. None of which happened....
Btw, the difference was audible enough that we do not speak of esotheric mysticism...
Now, whyle you wait for an scientific bombproof test ( which then will be ripped appart by somebody else), I keep enjoing what I've got.. Good cables..
:-)

moonbaby Fri, 08/27/2010 - 11:14

In my previous life, I was an R&D analyst for the Ford Motor Co. We ran double-blind tests in various locations in the Southeast to ascertain which decisions to make regarding ergonomics of auto interior layouts, color choices, and the like. We understood that a single-blind test was subject to peer group
bias and thus totally biased (and useless). During that time, I would travel to various trade shows and watch car manufacturers do these dumbass "single-blind" tests using professional racing drivers and the like, right out in the open to impress the general public witnessing them. We'd just stand there and laugh!

BobRogers Fri, 08/27/2010 - 13:37

Big K, post: 353000 wrote: ---------------------------
See? That is what I mean...
It is inconceivable to some that a person or a group can notice a difference without being impaired by group respose or "something the brain does" to him.
As I said, there are measerable differences and I hear those as better sounding... so did this group of engineers, every single one man enough to stand up and say : Hoax!! I don't hear it... In fact, most of them just waited impatiently to tear the Vovox representativ apart and send him back to Swizzerland tarred and feathered. None of which happened.... Btw, the difference was audible enough that we do not speak of esotheric mysticism...Now, whyle you wait for an scientific bombproof test ( which then will be ripped appart by somebody else), I keep enjoing what I've got.. Good cables..
:-)

Sorry. Not inconceivable to me at all that there are differences. But confirmation bias is a phenomenon that has been documented with far more and better proof than your single cable test. We are all susceptible to it. If it is inconceivable to you that you and your friends are affected by bias, so be it. But science says otherwise.

Vovox may make a superior cable. But the fact that they equip their reps to do a single blind A/B test instead of a double blind A/B/X test is a big point against them. This would simply not be all that hard or expensive to set up: two splitter boxes with electronic switching electronically controlled from a laptop that randomly assigned A, B, and X. You are saying that you and your friends will correctly identify cable X 100% of the time. The null hypothesis is that you only get it right 50% of the time. Shouldn't be too hard to distinguish a statistically significant difference. I'll bet you a brand new shiny dime that Vovox has already done the test. Didn't do it with you though, and I wonder why.

Added: Of course, the fact that there are measurable differences is a big point in your favor. But not all measurable differences are audible, and the same arguments have been made for speaker cables, power cables, etc.

audiokid Fri, 08/27/2010 - 16:14

Well, this is sort of like those ongoing debates over analog summing vs Digital. One has more space to some. That analog summing amps claim to improve space, is this snake oil. Some hear the difference and some don't so it goes on and on.

Either way to me, the older I get the less I understand science so I trust my ears, like I aways have. I tend to believe that there is a point of perfection where it doesn't matter and I tend to believe that digital can't record and translate all of the space I hear organically, yet. Maybe VOVOX shares the world of the organic Audio File.

I've contacted [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.audioplu…"]Audio Plus Services - High-End A/V Distributor[/]="http://www.audioplu…"]Audio Plus Services - High-End A/V Distributor[/] who is the Focal distributor and the the new VOVOX distributor for North America. I'm hoping they will send me some cable to test for myself. Not to make others believe. If it does in fact sound better to me, that's all I need to hear. I'm assuming Big K is saying it like this too.

Ah, I love this place and all of you. The BS free zone. We continue to learn.

BobRogers Fri, 08/27/2010 - 17:10

With analog vs. digital summing it's very hard to construct an unbiased test. (At least I can't figure out how to design one and I have not heard anyone who has.) So there we have to just use the best tests we can find - while being aware that biases exist. I don't feel that is the case with cables. I'm an OTB vs. ITB skeptic, but a mild one.

In the end I think that it's OK to trust your ears if you are aware that your ears are easy to fool. A (surprisingly) wise man once said, "Trust, but verify." Of course, this means "pretend to trust, but don't."

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