Hi Mad John!

Hard drives crash. Hard drives are inexpensive. Why not buy a BIG backup drive? If your data/session is on a "work drive" and a "back-up" drive then you are pretty safe. If you want real-time back up you can get that too (anybody have a favorite???). In any event a good hard drive utilities program like Alsoft "Disk Warrier" can be a life saver in a data recovery situation.

If you need an archiving set-up you have a lot of choices (I tend to archive on CDR cause it has a "verify" step). I'm hoping to back up onto DVD in the future in order to take advantage of the lager storage capacity of the dvd discs.

Take care and good luck!

The alesis machine lets you use any standard hard drive. For $60 you can record 3 albums worth of stuff at 24 bit 24 tracks, and for another $60 back it up to a second hard drive. I can't think of cheaper media.

Curious is on the money - yes, hard drives crash - not as often as you might think though. My current DAW has two drives, a 10 gig IDE for program storage/boot, and an 18 gig Ultra2 SCSI for recording. I've been backing up critical parts to the IDE after recording (faster) then burning CDR's after session (slower, but more permanent) CDR's, as long as you don't store them in the oven with bricks on them, are nearly indestructable with any degree of reasonable care. DVD's should be about the same, I'm headed that way with the next DAW. Right now, I'm recording at 20 bit, working and saving at 32 bit, all at 44.1 - I intend to move up to 32/96 with the next system, which will have 8 IDE drives (two of which are removable)and firewire for CDRW and DVD-RW.

The Tascam HDR (MX-2424) uses SCSI (Ultra2 I think) for its optional drives, and has some limitations as to what will work. This makes backup drives kind of expensive compared to IDE drives. It does allow at least one kind of CDRW as an option drive - the downside of that is speed and capacity. You would pretty much have to do backups after the fact and swap several CDR's to accomplish backup of a very large project. This is why I'm looking at DVD-R - one project, one disk (two, just to be really safe)The plan is, finish the session, then just drag/drop the entire folder with that project onto the DVD-R, and go away. The other advantage to this is clients who come back every other month to work on their project - the night before, assuming they call you first, just load the DVD back onto the working hard drive and take up right where you left off.

To put the "crash" thing in perspective, remember analog tape sheds, stretches, breaks, sticks to heads if you put too many passes on it, loses highs if your heads don't get de-magged often enough, etc - point is, ain't nuttin' perfect 'cept you 'n me, and lately I'm wonderin' 'bout y'all... :=)

If you're planning on a stand-alone HDR, I would get whichever one(s) that allow two different backup methods, fast and permanent. (2nd hard disk, and optical) I hang out regularly on the Tascam forums, since I have some of their gear, and the general concensus on the MX-2424, even from some serious Nashville analog types, is that it sounds great. Beyond that, ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances, sorta like the rest of life... Steve

This is a little off topic, but what do you think about just burning a session to CD/DVD. I am thinking about long term. Let's say I am a budding Songwriter, and I work at home now, compsing and what not. Five years from now, if I want to go back and try to dig up those old ideas, maybe a harddrive will work, maybe not. if I where able to put a song/project onto a couple of CDs, or DVDs, then it would be there. Swapping hardrives is cool and everything, but is there something wrong with burning CDs?

Thank you all for the wonderful replies!

Forgive me if I seem a little slow to catch on, but I really know nothing about Hard Drives and Computer type gear.

Let me get this stright, because it seems a little hard to believe. Are you saying that 24 tracks on a hard drive can be transfered as "information" to a CDR?

Also, do you buy a new Hard Drive when all the time is used up (like a real Master tape) and then back up the exsisting information of that 24 channel master to the CDR?

If that is the case, I understand the concept.

digital rule #1. It's not backed up in digital unless it's backed up AT LEAST twice. period. If not, you WILL get bit someday. For me, it's at least twice, to two harddrives. ALL THE TIME. And usually to CDR, on top of that .

john,

any information on a hard drive can be copied to a cdr, in fact you can even run some programs off a cd, as though it was a hard drive

the only difference (for now), is that you can't write to a cd on the fly, like you can to a hard drive (it's still too slow, but it might change)

in other words, yes, you can copy 24 tracks of audio to a cd, as long as it's under 700 mb (that's where dvd's are better)

otherwise, you may need to use a stuffit sort of utility to split the file into 2 or more bits, and back them up individually, or just divide your files into logical folders, and put them back together later (note, make sure to make good notes, it helps five years later)

it might be easier to get a couple of hard drives (they are cheap and getting cheaper), and record to one and back up daily to the other, then weekly/monthly back up to cd/dvd (or whatever)

there's no data on long-term storage using above, because they've only been around for 10 yrs or so, but i regularly pull out cd's from 5 years ago(when i started burning), and they seem fine

hope it helps

Max, bless you! That is exactly what I needed to know. It is interesting and some what frightening to consider the whole Digital assumption: that storage on a compact disc can last as long as 100 years!

I like your idea very much! Useing 2 hardrives with a couple of CDs seems like a secure method.

My palms still sweat and my heart still flutters slightly to the idea of CD storage and the like, but as mentioned earlier, analog storage and durability certainly have their problems as well.

I am sure it will be fine! It will take a little time for me to get out of (I think it is) 1978!

from experience, it was the best idea to go hard drive. cheaper, more space, easy to transport, more possibilities. and yes they do crash (barely on my half) what i found is that the ones that had the most crashes were the ones that used their systems for more than just music and did not have the proper setup such as good coolance, installing too many unneeded programs, ect. and for the issue on backing up: shouldn't you back up all your work regardless of what medium for the, just incase theory? and also on the issue of saving sessions on to cd or dvd... nothing wrong with it but as much as possible try to save in a .bun file as well.

Originally posted by max:
john,

otherwise, you may need to use a stuffit sort of utility to split the file into 2 or more bits,
hope it helps

Never, Never, Never ever use any form of data compression (that's what stuffit is) on your Audio files (which by the way are the overwhelmingly majority of what you'll be backing up).

Record Man, I agree. You dont want to do anything other than provide a clean trasfer of the Master tracks information. Nothing should be added at that time, all aplications should be done with "spare copies!"

I am sure I will get the hang of it. All of this technology keeps changeing so fast! I just hope for all of our sakes that nothing goes wrong with the properties at hand.

There are many possible backup solutions that vary in cost, speed, ability to handle large amounts of data, and reliability.

In my (Mac) world, firewire drives have gotten so cheap that I've got about 300GB of various drives that I use for "temporary' storage, and can easily justify adding on another 100 GB at the drop of a hat if I should need to.

But I use DDS4 with Retrospect software for more permanent archiving. The advantage over CDR's is mostly a matter of scale: the tapes I buy hold 12 or 20 GB apiece, as opposed to 650 MB on a CD. Yeah, CD's are cheap, but if you are backing up data from 48 track sessions, you'll need a million of them, and have to sit there loading them in one at a time. With DDS4, you start the backup and go to bed. Xfer rate is about 120MB per minute on my system (UltraSCSI).

The advantage of using a software system like Retrospect with a rewritable media is that if you are doing back-ups on an ongoing project, it only writes the data that has changed since the last time you backed up. Obviously, that's far more efficient than rewriting all the data everytime you do a backup.

So it's mostly just finding a system that best suits your needs. If you are mostly backing up stereo (2 track) sessions, CD's should be fine, because you are not talking about massive amounts of data. But it's not uncommon for some multitrack recording projects to turn into 20+ GB, even more true now with higher sampling rate options (like 96/192k). In which case CDs would be a nightmare! Especially if they are not rewriteable.

Barry, thank you for your support. I have a strong feeling that I will be getting a Radar sometime towards the end of the summer.

Can some one at IZ help me with the type of package that I need?

I would love to figure out what is right for my Studio!

Are your payment plans as friendly as they look?

Mad John,

Email Dave Sawchuk - daves@izcorp.com and he will help you out or me at barry@izcorp.com

Yes hard drives crash, yes, hard drives are cheap.
CD/DVD? Well, that may be the defacto standard today, but who's to say that it will be 5 years from now? Remember 5-1/4" floppies? Try and find a 'puter with a 5-1/4" floppy in it today.
Heck, I have some old documents archieved on an old IBM 10" format floppy!
There's really only ONE archival system that has proven to be readable for many years through many changes in technology:
http://encarta.msn.com/find/MediaMax.asp?pg=3&ti=04BB1000&idx=461526465
:D

Now that's a good suggestion ! :D
Delivering a session backup on a truck...

Originally posted by John Thomas Milhorat:
Can some one at IZ help me with the type of package that I need?
I would love to figure out what is right for my Studio!

John, first all of send me an email lee@3dnet.com and I can give you some real world experience on Radar hard drives and backup. I can also help you out with some comparison info.

... Getting a little too commercial......I snipped this section(SD)

I know a lot of people on this thread have recommended backing up to hard drives but I disagree with that approach. I use 4.7 or 9gig DVD-Ram backup on the Radar.

It is interesting that some people suggest using hard drives as a backup yet at the same time they defeat their own argument.

Hard drives crash. Hard drives are inexpensive. Why not buy a BIG backup drive?

If hard drives crash why would I want to use another one as a backup ? Hard drives are still the most mechanical device on a computer and yes they do fail. But more importantly they are not permanent. You put things on hard drives that get changed. I prefer a more semi-permanent medium that is not prone to getting erased.

... a little more commercial snipping...(SD)

John look forward to hearing from you.

Lee

[doublepost]

someone, please, correct me if i'm wrong, but stuffit doesn't affect the information embedded in audio or visual files, it only affects the description of the files, that's why if you attempt to stuff an audio file, you'll notice it doesn't make much difference to the size

this is very different to the audio-compression s/ware, like mp3 stuff, where, indeed, you're throwing away useful bits (i have, though, wondered about using that process as an effect (thinning sort of effect))

i was, actually, referring to the capacity of stuffit to split a file into 2 or more parts (used to be very handy in the days of floppys, admittedly, not at all useful now)

cheers

Originally posted by max:
someone, please, correct me if i'm wrong, but stuffit doesn't affect the information embedded in audio or visual files, it only affects the description of the files, that's why if you attempt to stuff an audio file, you'll notice it doesn't make much difference to the size

StuffIt is supposed to compress data in a lossless way, i.e. that it is reversible to the original. Its effectiveness depends on the kind of data. Obviously it's not very effective with audio data.
I think what rm was referring to was the experience that StuffIt sometimes screws up files. I know what he means - I had corrupted StuffIt archives (not with audio though).
BTW: StuffIt can reduce the size of Audio files. I just made a test with a small 1.3MB file: 14% saved.

Matthias
:cool:

fair enough

i admit i haven't had to do it for a long, long time

Let's put this in a little better perspective - even if you store audio in 32 bit float at 96k, it only takes 16 GB to store 30 minutes of solid 24 track audio. Even doubling that to 192k you still only use 32 GB. Sooo, one 120 GB drive would store 4 reels worth of 2" tape, figuring 15 IPS and 10-1/2" reels. That 120 GB drive now costs as low as $135 US - just checked it on Pricewatch.com...

Now, I haven't bought any 2" tape lately, but the last time I looked you were looking at around $200 US for one reel, maybe a little less if you shop around. That makes that $135 120 GB drive worth about $800 US, or at least $700. Add to that the fact that, unless you own TWO 2" decks and run TWO RECORD PASSES simultaneously, you will NEVER get an exact backup of a 2" tape. Yeah, I know, digital still ain't analog, although it's getting closer all the time - still, with that much of a savings, anybody who can afford 2" in the first place can afford THREE copies of everything, with an optical backup thrown in for FREE !!!

My next DAW, scheduled for this fall, will have 8 IDE drives (4 on RAID, two removable, two fixed) a CDRW, and a DVD-RW, plus a SCSI 160, 15,000 rpm drive for Video, backed up to one or two of the IDE's AND DVD - and this is STILL cheaper than 2" analog. Safer, too - remember, there is no such thing as a bit-for-bit copy of analog tape.

My point, just in case y'all fell asleep, is that there is NO EXCUSE in any kind of pro facility NOT to have at LEAST the # of backups RecorderMan mentioned.

As for client copies, with two removable IDE bays, you can sell the client a DRIVE, two if they're properly paranoid,for the same cost as a reel of tape (which, remember, has NO BACKUP) - for an extra charge, they can store it with you - a large, fire-rated gun safe costs about $1200 - if you're busy enough, storage rental will pay for it in time, not to mention the "cool factor" (Fort Knox ain't got nuttin' on us...)

Sooo, John, even though digital ain't analog (yet) it makes up for it in some ways, and kicks its butt in others... Steve

Knightfly, I agree! I think that as long as the Digital recorder is giveing you an honest representation of the material at hand, then the issue of backup seems to be secure, if enough copies are made, giveing the situation.

Also I agree that 2' tape is unafordable, along with many other concerns.

I thank you for your posts, I feel much better about the whole idea, even if it still is a little weird to me, comming from the Analog world.

Cheers,

HD Drive back-up is very viable IMO. I have every client purchase a hard drive. I also keep my hard drives to something around 40 GB.

All projects are tracked to my tracking drives and copied to the client's drive and my backup drive (both Firewire 40GB) at the end of each session. When the project is finished the client can purchase a second HD for archive in a separate place and I will store my backup drive (when full) as well. SO I fill up backups and replace them. At $100/drive it is pretty inexpensive.

Notice about deleted posts:
I chose to delete at least one post and edit anther from the manufacturer of a specific hard drive product. My basis was that while the reassurance provided was in context, the claims cannot be verified as being unique nor genuine by the readers of this board. I there for considered this material to be commercial and promotional.

Please use personal e-mail to respond to a particualr user if you are a manufacturer of a product promoting features.

I will generally allow clarifications from the manufacturer and I will allow manufacturers to defend themselves against accusations made in a board if necessary.