Chris,

I'm just the opposite. Having been through electronics from the mid80s through 90s, I've swung back to my roots... real music played by real musicians in real time.

Bill

Absolutely, but not by my choice. I'd still love to work with a real drummer, but I can program drums if I need to.

Right now circumstances, in the form of college, etcetera, are such that I cannot devote too much time or money into what my parents (whose house I still live in) consider a "hobby". Thus, all my audio pursuits have to take place on a laptop. This means that I have to take the budget route wherever possible, and that means eliminating mixers, mics and preamps from the loop.

Drums? Sample based. Guitar and bass? PODxt/SansAmp/Amp-sim plugins. Keyboards/orchestral instruments? VSTI/DXi. Vocals? Uh... an SM58 into the PODxt. Haha

Hi Bill, falkon2, I hear you. The more real, the more real it is, and this is what the "art of recording" is all about, however, there is more out there and it's not to hip on RO.
I'm really wondering what the vibe is out there and if any RO members into mostly electronic style recording are around here? I know there are thousands of people making great music with synths on their DAW's but, they pass right through RO because we are mostly about traditional micing here. Rooms, acoustics, What mic to use etc. A lot of this doesn't mean anything to thousands of musicians. They simply don't care... But... learning what a good pre amp can do into Pro Tools gets my attention. It's finally getting interesting to me now. What a Sebatron does to my Nord lead get's me excited and I finally see a place for me here too.
About a year and a half back there was a big crowd on our chat that amazed me. A huge world of electronic musicians but most of them felt this place was full of "old guys" lol. It bothered me but I understand where that's coming from. Anytime someone got into it they got pounced on by the "recordist", it killed the vibe and drove em all away. Ya know what I mean? I think we need to welcome all ways of recording music. IMO, it is about harnessing what we hear inside and then finding the best tools to get it on track, it the mix and on CD.
As an example: I have a friend that loves that live room sound. Blues with nothing below 100. nothing above 12k. I love the Blues, it is my roots and a deep passion but I sometimes find it sounding so boring and actually painful. It's old sounding.
I love deep bass produced by synths, weird snares, virus, nord lead, synth congas, poly rhythms with cool echo's in time with sequenced drums and great acoustic, electric guitars and tight vocals. so, that's my point. I think we turn off a big pile of people that make music. It's a big world out there and those creators don't come here at all.
It will be interesting to see how many chime in on this topic.

Whatever happened to Azure Crystal? I remember he was doing a little electronica gig for a computer game project.

Work may be bogging him down, but it would be nice to hear how he's doing.

All my compositions are MIDI/electronic in nature. But I like to really get into MIDI programming, using CCs and Sysex to make instruments come alive. OASYS is perfect for this sort of stuff.

Stephen, is really busy right now. He pops in and out. He was talking about doing a music collaboration thing for RO but haven't heard from him since Christmas.

Mark! my man, you are one of us hehe. Hey, if you can break in down, please share what your doing there?

Well for starters, I just like to tweak. Take my OASYS for example. Anything can be mapped to a CC. Or Logic; you can map any controller to anything. Scrum-diddley-icious! (to quote Kurt) I've just about worn out the mod wheel and control slider on my JV-1000.

Basically I take my stuff in one of two directions. Either I'm attempting to emulate acoustic instruments, or I'm going for weird freaky analog and otherworldly sounds. Squeeks, bloops, bweeeeennnnhhhh, you get the point. (I've had several people ask me where I sampled my OASYS E-guitars from. I just smile and say Led Zeppelin, or The Doors, or....)

So start with a nice flute in OASYS. (OASYS is a special example, many patches don't need any more modulation, they're just alive; for instance, do a pitch bend on a trumpet and you get an overblown blat, followed by an octave jump.) Take the breath parameter, and sneakily add some breath modulation in there, like on a run, or at the beginning of an accent note. That kinda stuff.

That's why I love PhMod synths, they're just above and beyond.

With the more traditional (sample based, and analog) synths, I do stuff like combining portamento with pitchbends, to accidentally come up with lead lines. Or using cc10 to swell strings or pads. Ooh and I just love the randomize feature in SoundDiver.

Whatever the case, and intended effect, I usually start off with a short 2 bar sequence and just tweak the patch to fit the sequence, record some CCs/Sysex, and then tweak the sequence to fit the patch, add an unexpected tweet here and fill there, to stretch the pattern out to 4 or 8 bars.

My drums, OTOH, tend to stay simple and straight forward.

Sometimes, depending on which of my rappers I'm working with, I'll keep it very simple and safe, because it fits better.

More in a bit, boss is callin...

Chris, I'm old school, real drums, amps on guitars, nothing like the tone of warm tubes and high SPL stick hits.....but I do like to use Acid loops and Sonar groove clips sometimes for a little extra BAM! as Emeril says :D

...... ok I'm back.

I also like to automate effects. But to be honest I don't do the filter thing. Its just been done so much.

And I want to caveat. Most of the time, there will be one or two lead tracks with this sort of processing on it, and sprinkles of it here and there throughout the rest of the composition. Sometimes I don't do any of it, as I said before, and sometimes I go so far overboard that no one wants to rap on it.

Chris-- First, I wanna congratulate you on creating such a fine forum with so many knowledgable and open members sharing tips and thoughts, Great forum!!

I, too, program my drums in the sequencer, as a former drummer I can shape things up and I've fooled a few musicians.(even drummers)

I love using samples and a sequencer. Ironically, most of the music I make is traditional, so I end up using electronic resources to reproduce acoustic stuff. (retro rock, contry, even a jazz trio with brushes and all..)

I have a nord lead 3 which I love and though I'm not deeply involved into electronic music, use it quite a bit.

Nice to see people on a similar track among audio engineers and "recordists" hehe

Best Regards,

:c: :c:

Chris,

it is an interesting topic you have introduced. i find it most interesting simply because it questions the notion that 'real' instruments recorded in a 'real' room are always 'better'. whether a person believes this to be true or not is actually not as important as the process of questioning that belief and, hopefully, testing it and seeing if, after testing it, you still believe it to be true... IMHO.

for what it is worth i think that the old school attitude you are talking about is one that will not exist in a few short years. i think that because musicians are artists the art will always be the final word.

the idea that there are two camps of musicians: 'electronic' musicians and 'analog' musicians is already fading away as formerly analog musicians are realizing that electronics can help them realize some new artistic goals that would not have been possible in a strictly analog world. The reverse is also true... an 'electronic' artist like Manitoba can realize that recording one's own source material and then processing it electronically can add a whole new layer of content to the artistic process.

Here in Toronto there is a band called the 'New Deal' that are live jam band but their sound is electronic. the drummer has been quoted as saying that he tries his hardest to sound like a drum machine... yet they have decided that while they are influenced most by the style of electronic music they also want to be part of those ephemeral moments which can only happen when you are improvising in front of an audience.

As electronic music starts to sound more like analog/acoustic music and analog/acoustic music starts to sound more electronic all we have left is music... which is really what we had all along, we just made an arbitrary distinction that never really existed in the first place.

artists will decide to utilize drum programming, or a drummer in a room with mics, based on the sort of artistic process they want to engage in, or what their personal strengths are.

i, too, hope that electronic musicians are not scared away from this forum, but not because i am an electronic musician but rather because i am a musician... period.

wow... sorry for the long winded ponderings, it's a lazy afternoon.

greg

From about '89 on to about '99 when I opened my first studio I worked mostly by myself, learning about recording and building tracks one at a time. I write a lotta songs so I had plenty of material to cover and it was exciting to me- In '99 I rented a small commercial space and got out of the house with my studio and started playing with people. This wasn't really a commercial enterprise, just a project studio in a building where other musicians had studios but it got me out of me working by myself.

In 2001 I opened a full fledge commercial studio and then everyone came in and I started recording live drums. I still like working by myself, working out ideas, but I decided you can't beat the feel of 4-5 guys in a room laying down tracks at the same time- Of course I have the best of both worlds, as I'll go back and replace the scrath vocals and t whatever other instruments are needed- then overdub away to my hearts content until it sounds right-

At the end of 2003 I sold my commercial studio and went back to having a home studio, but now we have a band and we rehearse and record at home- I bought a set of electronic drums and that helps to keep the decibel level down- I find myself very happy now with what Im doing and feel that I have the best of both worlds in this respect :D :D

Chris,

Just to dive of the other side of the boat...

I'm not a fan of the blues. The blues is a big deal in my town, and any night of the week you can see white boys masterbating their guitars to an approving crowd. (Yawn) But one of my friends, who recently had some work sold and recorded by some artist on Alligator Records, keeps it real and keeps me enthralled. If you get a chance, Wil E. Tri and the Bluescasters is really quite an enjoyable act... and Willi is right out there on the edge, all intensity and emotion. He plays in a little bar in a neighborhood filled with stagehands, and they are always bringing the traveling hands from other shows up to see him play, so he is getting this odd underground buzz among touring cats, and his CD has become one of what used to be called 'bus tapes'. And it is surprising the number of players who hunt him up and sit in and jam when they are in town.

But it is still in a club that is crowded with 50 people in it, and it is still very real. GReat fun.

If you get a chance, check him out.

Bill

Wow! nice to read this stuff... now we're getting somewhere! :tu: Yes, it's about the music. When I started the electronic gig my friends thought it would never take off lol! That was 1978-9 around the time Roger Linn's drum machine was introduced. God bless him!
I kept saying to other musicians... listen to these songs on the radio, I'm sure Quincy Jones is using a Linn Drum and that's one of those synclavier's. "your nuts man".
How many great songs use the tools we're hip too here? I would say more than most of this forum would ever believe. Once you know, it's the best kept secret in the business. What I have heard a lot of musicians saying, they hear tracks that are either poorly programmed or lesser quality samples, or, the songs were supposted to sound like that. Then they judged them on those merits and think that's what electronics sound like! Never realizing the pro audio producers were writing pop music with these tools (that was hard to say).

I have another interesting observation,

Writing advantages?:
more focused music closer to what's inside your head... I'm not saying a band isn't cool, I'm saying, I get what's inside my head, out, and that could never have happen without these new tools. Ya, maybe if I was Beethoven I would "write it down" and look for one hundred musicians.
When I compose something "most" of the time it sounds very close to what I was hearing when it first came to me. As I grow and mature, so do my capability of harnessing the sounds. I learn to isolate these sounds in my head and put them down on step at a time. Either in real time or step time. I love what's happening in the electronic world.

whohoo! I'm liking this thread!

I would like to say this so our thread doesn't take a sudden left hand turn. By know means am I talking about "watching or experiencing" live music played by real musicians or bands. This topic is from a writing, producing and recording point of view and achieving the increadible rich sound we can get from these tools. I think without reading this thread in full , (I've seen it before) some can misinterpret the topic and take offence or flame it. Nothing more beautiful than experiencing a live performance.

Ah, back to recording direct and the future. :c:

For my personal songwritting and/or arranging as well as when doing others for the one-man-band thing, I'll often do all direct for instruments and use either a drum machine or MIDI sequencer to trigger sounds in my sampler. There have even been times when I or a real drummer use something like an Octapad MIDI controller or roland MIDI drum pads recording the performance in MIDI then sequence edit if necessary, playing that back via my E-mu sampler where I can custom edit/tweak the exact drum kit I want as well as process 8-separate outputs with my outboard gear. No phase, bleed or recording room related problems here! I use my Johnson J-station for amp sounds while also recording the dry peformace for re-amping if desired or necessary.

Though I have to admit, that I've been also toying with Acid software and find it quicker and easier to edit/assemble loops to get the same kind of feel/groove for basic songwritting at the expense of lower quality sound.

And as for creativity in both writting and unique sound design, I'd be lost without my E-mu sampler, three Eventide processors and many of the cheeseball, half-ass plugs that are available for free.

Thanks Bill, nice to see you here and actually on the entire board!

AG, well, I'm suprized ;) :tu: and there's as few grems to add some personal expressions of warmth seeing you here too!

Greg, falkon2 , maintiger, Bill riversedge (igloo, thanks for the warm words), Mark and all, ya! We've got enough here now to fight off the gunslingers hehe.

You can count me in too, Chris. My sounds come mostly from XV5050 (SPDIF), softsynths, and software-based sampling. I do record real guitar, electric and acoustic, but that's about it.

Great thread! I Like to start out composing a song with the help of all my softsynths. Then I take it to another project studio(a friend I colab a lot with) and I begin the process of tracking all live instruments. I did this recently on song I'm working on. He had a listen and loved the composition thus far. He called it "COLDHEAD" for whatever reason. I told him I wanted to start with acoustic guitars(which there was non of in the original comp) so we proceeded with 4 tracks of acoustic along with a bass line. The drums were then recorded(he's a great drummer) using 6 mics. From there, I took the tracks home and again began to add the piano(softsynth), strings, and some other ambient sounds via softsynths. Vocals have yet to be recorded, just a scratch track, but as you can see, the best of both worlds combined. This seems to be my process now for a while. I'm also a guitarist, but can play keys and drums.

Mark, I'm working with a hiphop group right now and they seem to love my r&b/jazz style guitar riffs I have added to the mix, playing the main melody. All other instruments of course are softsynths via spectrasonics mostly, and an mpc 1000(not mine, but I wish!).

I still have lots of analog gear that I have utilized including tascam 8 track 1/2 inch, 2 track 1/2 inch, and several 1/4 inch 4 and 2 trackers, along with 6 old ashley comp/limiters, toa effects processor, some apex stuff, some old telefunken mics I still sometimes use as overheads. Combine all this and you are still doing the same thing....making, composing, arranging music...only with a bag full of equipment and methods. It's all so exciting when you can imagine what you can do with all this, whether its analog or digital. The combination makes for some creative music IMHO.

Sorry for babbling on here.....I just had 2 beers... :c:

many times I'll use a drum look to set the "feel' of a song, then I'll add bass, guitars, keys and main and harmony scratch vocals- then when the band comes in I'll have the basic idea of what I want- But that's just for me-

I'll just play guitar and vocal for the band, though, as I don't want to influence them in what to play but develop their own ideas- (hey, they are the drummer, bassist keyboardist, etc, not me!) If what they come up with is not what I want I'll tell them that and they'll comeup with something else- rarely do I play them the original tracks, unless they are way off the feel of the song, which does happen ocasionally-

I use Acid for drums and rhythms. Often I start with just straight loops right off the cd's because it helps get the idea down right away so that I don't lose the moment. Later I'll go back and get more into the rhythm and build something up with a combination of one shot drum hits, loops, and midi sounds. The more I do it the more real it's sounds.

I do agree that nothing quite beats the feel of a group all jamming together. Some of the best nights of my life were gigs, but two years ago I recorded drums for a project of mine and the drummer was somewhat unrehearsed and we didn't really have the room or mics or experience to record them properly. So in the end the whole mix suffered. I've recently been replacing all of those drums with the means mentioned above and the sound and vibe is miles above. Would I love to have a real drummer here? You bet. Can I make a smoking tune without? You bet.

Wait I just realised I sound like Joe Lieberman in his campaign withdrawl speech!! :eek:

Bad electronic music comes from people who more or less let the electronics do the creating.

Dave

[ February 28, 2004, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: doctorfish ]

Actually, most of my recording is currently done this way. Guitars and usually go through the Line 6 POD or Vetta. Drums are predominately Roland V-Drums or Reason. And of course keys... Everything is mixed into ProTools and we all monitor through a headphone distributor when tracking. Works pretty slick! As well as recording, I actually have band rehearsals the same way. I have a Rush tribute band and it's great to have a nice stereo mix in the headphones.

Just about to release a CD I did with all programmed drums, percussion, synths, pianos, strings and organs. Live instruments were voices, guitars (acoustic, nylon and electric) bass, sax, trumpets and hand claps. It took me 2 years to get it sounding the way I wanted (of course, we're talking about a weekend and evening warrior here, since my day job doesn't let me do this for 40 hours a week).

If you want to hear some tracks, go here:

http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=Screws

I also just did a 5 song EP for a punk/rock band that my oldest son was in. All live tracks - drums, bass, guitars and vocals. Harder to mix, but way easier to track.

Yes, I'm one from the old school too. My musical endeavors began back in the mid 70's when everything was "acoustically oriented". I started playing the alto saxophone around the end of my 6th grade year. After that, I met some guys who would end up being my life long friends. So we decided to put together a band. This of course went on way beyond high school. During this era, I kinda taught myself to play keyboards with the help of my guitarist friends. Then I saw something taking place that would change the way we construct/compose music, the evolution of the electronic instrument. Yes this has definitely made life much easier, ie: no more attitudes to deal with and other issues we go through with band members and the like, but without this technology, I don't know where I'd be today.

audiokid, post: 63937 wrote: I'm really curious to find out how many members here record everything direct except for basically guitar and vocals? ( welcome to the new world of quality pre amps though)

This is pretty much my gig, I'm a guitar player ( old santana, clapton, srv, pink floyd etc) however, I love electronic, always have and always will and I've made lots of money playing techno for 16 years. I would also like to add that I have fooled the most respected OLD school pro's (won't mention their names because it could embarrass) with my drum programming.:

I'm with you -- except for guitar, I love the electronics, too. Control, variety, etc. But when I started my Santana tribute band years ago, the percussion players looked at me like I was out of my freakin' mind when I suggested electronic percussion! :) So I ended up forgetting the idea.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.ultimate…"]Santana: Songs, Albums, History, Gear, and more[/]="http://www.ultimate…"]Santana: Songs, Albums, History, Gear, and more[/]

i haven't read this whole thread... but i use fruity loops for recording "band" type stuff. drums, bass, guitar, vocals.

i have been doing everything direct in except acoustic and vocals.

recently i have been thinking that direct in on electric and such is a drawback... but then i watched this video and learned what reamping is. So i can quietly get a perfect performance, bring it anywhere, then send it through an amp and get whatever sound i want!! granted, i haven't done it, but i think the idea is amazing. I use ezdrummer and guitar rig 3 for my recordings.

I've been a traditionalist for a long time. I still love the indie sound of just few mics over a drum set for certain songs. But, I completely agree that sometimes the sound I want is simply found on a sample. I've done some recording recently and have used BOOM, the drum machine. People would think that since I'm a drummer that this is a horrible thing. But it's exactly what I want for those recordings. I love accoustic, real sound and I love electric sound.
I'm for both

Its only really guitars that I know inside and out as a guitarist of 25 years plus. From that perspective, I have to say, I have a real love/hate relationship with the Line6 PODs, Vettas, and the Variax. I've had guys evangelise to me that if you use the Variax into the Pod Pro with the special cable, its extra-shiny and it can 'do anything'. NB I never, ever ever use these myself.

The thing is, it actually can do anything - if you don't have access to the real signal chain required.

A Line6 setup direct into the desk....

A real Fender, through a Blues Driver, into a Twin, down a R121, via a 1272, maybe a bit of 1176, through your Apogees into the DAW, or even onto tape first, will rip it to shreds in my opinion. But in that setup there's so many things that can go wrong, that if you don't know what you are doing, Line6 guy may have a point. And if you only have a 57, and a Marshall valvestate, and some prosumer interface, then you are SOL unless your mic technique, playing technique and live room are beyond good. In that case you'd have the proper gear right?

My goal is to ensure I beat him!

But then Line6 guy suddenly switches to a Recto setup. Damn, you have to drag out $10k more gear from the store to beat him. Then suddenly he has a Randall. And he pulled out a Big Muff! You grab your Cornford and he's still dancing round you.

Line6 floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. But when all's said and done, it does feel good to be behind the wheel of the juggernaut, bearing down on 'em.

I have been recording direct for years now. I use a Roland V-drum kit and use BFD, EZDrummer, Addictive Drums, Battery and for guitar I have Guitar Rig or my POD. My acoustic guitar shakers, tamborine and my voice are the only instruments that I use a mic for. When I record clients thats a different story. While some of them take me up on sitting at my V-Drums and plugging into guitar rig, mostly I have a mobile setup to take to their practice space to record the real deal.

Since I live in a townhouse, having the option to record a live band direct is nice to have.