James,
What kind of soundcard do you use... I think its ADAT light pipe, right? If I wanted to do the kind of thing your thinking of I would just get a Tascam D24 .. It can act as a 16 at once input, the converters are decent, not the best, but by all accounts decent. It can be a control surface as well and it is easily used to monitor existing tracks as well as any live inputs with no latency which is a big issue using Cubase. Even the Allen Heath is not that great of an analog board in my opinion. I spent quite a while talking to Bill Roberts on the phone the other day and we discussed analog mixers as well as the whole sample rate deal. IMO there just isn't a real good analog console in a small format available. The only exceptions that come to mind are $2000 +. Those would be the TLA 8 channel tube console http://www.tlaudio.co.uk and the Crest X20 series console http:// The TLA is only 8 X 2 and the Crest is a rack mount desk and all the connectors are on the back of the board. Very difficult to use on top of a desk. You would have to cut a hole in that desk your going to build to mount it. In Bills situation he has taken an older Ramsa desk and upgraded as many of the components in it with SSL amps. I don't think your willing to go to those lengths. Off the shelf the Older Ramsa desks are fairly useable in Bills opinion but they are a bit difficult to find used. Most people who have them are keeping them. If you are willing to settle down and stay at 24/96 for the next few years regardless of what comes down the road (schools' still out in regards to this subject) then by all means the Tascam D24 is a great product. Tascam has always built a great product IMO (with the exception of the HD2424) and all their stuff is built like a tank. I have 30 year old TEAC / Tascam gear that still works perfectly.
Fats
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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Hey Fats...Actually, I am using a Layla/24 that has 8 analog ins, *plus* the ADAT. Currently, I have the PreSonus Digimax 8-channel mic pre lightpiped into the Layla, but still have the 8 analog line level inputs on the Layla available.

I was thinking that I could take the direct outs on the first 8 channels on the the Allen & Heath, and wire them (analog) into the Layla for a total of 16 possible channels at once. I can't imagine ever recording 16 channels at once, but ya never know!

James,
I have used more than that! If you were ever to track a live rhythm section, it would be feaseable to use 8 or 10 inputs for drums, 4 to 6 for guitar and keyboard ins and perhaps a couple for bass... also when you mix on DAW it's nice to have a lot of ins and outs to use for surround stems or aux / effects sends and returns. It's just better to have more than you need. I have found it is a case of either having more than you need or not enough.. it's never just enough for some reason... hee hee hee.. That sounds fine until you decide to get rid of the pre sounus. :D BTW, I still vote for the Tascam ............. Fats

I have looked at the TASCAM, and it does look nice, but there isn't any analog i/o, which means that I am a slave the A/D converters in the TASCAM unit...I guess that could be good or bad, depending on how you look at it.

I have a magazine from a few months ago that did an extensive review of the TASCAM, I'll dig it out and have a look.

I'm not sure that I will ever get rid of the Presonus, but I am seriously looking at some other mic pres...those APIs are looking sweeter and sweeter...

DH
If you can still get that lunchbox, I'd jump on it! I priced the quad API 3124m+ and it was 3200 stinkin freaking snaglefrassing bucks! And I want 2! Ohh whuts a gurl to do???
:d: :s:

The converters in the Tascam are reported to be pretty good.
Here's a link to a report that was in Pro Audio Review…

http://

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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to! ………. Fats

If you are going the dig mixer route, I would strongly suggest the Ramsa DA7, it sounds better than any dig board under 10K. It's not going to give you the FX like the Tascam and Yamaha boards but the mic pres and AD/DA's IMO (and many others) are superior. Check e-bay and soundbroker.com, etc., they can often be found for under 2K. It only goes to 24/48K, but I'll take great sound at a lower sample rate over just OK 24/96K any day. Best of luck!

I probably should have made my needs a bit clearer in the beginning:

The need I have for a mixer is not for use as a preamp source, I have that already. What I *really* need is a versatile signal router for monitoring and for feeding multiple mixes to my headphone amp. If I ever decided that I need more than 8 mic pres at once, it would be nice to know that the mic pres on the mixer could be pressed into service if I really had to. (Remember, the Layla has 8 available line level ins that are still available, so even now I have 8 mic pres and 8 line level inputs available)

The Allen & Heath board that I mentioned has 6 aux sends, four of which can be set as pre-fader. This gives me 4 aux sends to my headphone amp to provide different mixes. Each channel on my Presonus mic pre has an analog out in addition to the ADAT digital outs. The digital outs go straight to the Layla, whereas the analog outs each go to a separate channel on the mixer. This is how I can get the 4 unique headphone mixes.

In addition, the A&H has direct outs on each channel, so if I did decide to use the mic pres, I could at least bypass all the rest of the circuitry (EQ, etc.), and go directly into my Layla.

This A&H board would suffice quite nicely for all my routing needs, but the mic pres are probably not as good as those found on more expensive desks, but are certainly better than the Mackies from what I have heard!

Currently, nothing that goes through the board I have now gets recorded to tape, and that will probably remain the same for 95% of the work I will do...it will be just a monitoring and signal routing mixer.

It would be nice to find a digital board that would provide all my routing needs, *plus* act as a control surface for Cubase SX/Nuendo, rather than buying separate pieces.

That is the question I guess I am trying to ask..."Does such a beast exist that can do all I asking it to do, or am I just better off buying the A&H and then a Mackie Control for the control surface?

I Think the D24 would do all of that fine... I just looked at that blurb and you would need to get the analog i/o card. That could provide 8 extra analog outputs.

Personally...I would go for an analog mixing desk. Better warmth overall and if you go digital you will want an external converter to clock it since most digital desks really don't give you the true sound you are recording.
Control Surfaces...James..I would personally hold off on the Macki Control at this point. More and more people are not going that route as they are waiting for what's to come out at Namm this year...be patient and I'll let you guys know what is being shown at Namm this year in Anaheim
Opus

OPUS,
What kind of analog console do you recomend?
My problem is nothing in analog, I can afford, is any good.
What is good, if I can afford it, requires tons of maintenance, which I also can't afford.
For me, doing it digital is a must. .......... Fats

Fats, same here - the least expensive desk in analog (used) that I could even think about would be a Ghost - if you get one used, and don't re-cap it ($$$ for good ones) you still have mismatched channel strips, and can't really even BALLPARK a stereo pair by sight. Phase anomalies caused by capacitance variations, etc, make it very easy to completely CANCEL freqs in the 15-20 K range.

I own a DM-24, still saving for a proper digital interface to my DAW, as well as a newer DAW, and the latest upgrade to SAmplitude - still, I'm looking forward to being able to control the DAW almost entirely from the mixer - And, as you mentioned, the converters/pre's are reported to be quite good (same ones as in their MX-2424, which have been pretty well-recieved in Nashville so far)

For you and James, there are already downloadable templates at the Tascam site for Nuendo/SX and (I think) CuBase, and the newer firmware for the DM-24 lets you route almost anything to anything. The V2.03 firmware lets you have (Possible Senior Moment here, but pretty sure) up to 60 inputs total at mixdown, depending on which cards you have in the two slots, etc -

From what I've seen, to kick this board's butt you need to spend $10k on a Yamaha O2R96 or $20k on a DM-2000. Even with the meter bridge (extra$ on the Yamahas too) mine only came to $3100, including 3 TDIF cables.

The only downside I've seen that hasn't been addressed (can't be) in newer firmware, is that the 8 subs can NOT be assigned to the stereo outs. They have some workarounds, which look like you could get used to OK, so it's not a deal breaker for me, just an annoyance.

Also, the input attenuators in the stock board are staged wrong for lower level recording (acoustic stuff) and Tascam, after many threads, has a deal where you can send the board to them and they will replace the pre's with the ones from their SX-1, for a cost of $200 per mixer - identical except for the pots, as I understand it - makes the response more even at the max sensitivity, not so twitchy. There are NO PLANS to change the pre's in the DM-24 unless you do this...

Due in part to the pile of boxes/gear that is STILL sitting in the center of my OLD room, and in part to the cash flow "diode" problem (only flows one way, dammit)I've yet to run audio thru mine, but HAVE heard them in a fairly quiet room at the local GC - from first listen, very quiet and clean.

To get the same functions for ProStools, you'd spend $8500 for a Mix24 - and SX, Nuendo and Samplitude's summing algorithm would STILL kick your ass...

and, if the new Santana CD is any indication, I don't EVER want my music to get within a mile of ProStools (unless what I heard was just the worlds WORST mastering engineer at work) All but one of the tracks mentioned a ProStooler in the credits. Had to check my stereo with a couple other CD's, because I thought something had BROKEN, it sounded like 5% distortion on EVERYTHING, thin pillows over the speakers, etc - Then I put on one of Diana Krall's live-to-2-track CD's and stopped looking for bad connections... Really liked most of the songs, but Carlos needs to get someone with ears that still work to do final QA... Steve

Hey guys...I appreciate all the advice. I went back to a review of the TASCAM DM-24 in Sound on Sound from a few months ago, and it really does sound like a great mixer. It is however really limited in its analog outputs as I mentioned earlier. I do not plan to use it as a recording board per se, but I really need the flexibility to route signals in all different directions. I am not sure if this unit provides the flexibility that I need in that area. It does provide some cool features that I wouldn't get with an analog board however, and it is obviously a trade-off, as it is with all purchase decisions.

I am anxious to hear what Gary has up his sleeve with regard to control surfaces...but in the mean time, I think I am going to hold off for a month or so and look into this a little further.

There was a similar thread on another forum talking about digital mixers that was pretty interesting, and believe it or not, the Behringer digital mixer got some pretty good comments (this from a forum that regularily bashes Behringer).

http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=215094572&f=884099644&m=5953039786

Still think you should give the Ramsa DA7 a listen. You could dump your Presonus. 2 ADAT cards and an AD/DA card and you'd be rockin. plenty of analog outs for what you are doin and really good sounding pres (16). When I bought mine, the Tascam had just come out. I was very intrigued with the Tascam due to the onboard FX, control ability, etc. Just didn't sound as good as the DA7. For me it was sound first. Do note that the DA7 also has a MIDI layer which emulates the HUI and is also user configurable for other software control. I know there are some users over at http://www.da7.com that are controlling Cubase SX successfully. I dare say that to beat the sound you'd have to go analog, but at a much higher price point.

Hey Garysjo...I checked out the Ramsa at your recommendation, and it looks pretty good! The info on the web site (Panasonic) was minimal, and there was only one very small picture, so it was hard to get a good feel for the ergonomics. It sounds like it is similar to the TASCAM in that it doesn't offer a lot of analog outs.

There is one on Ebay for about $1,500 with 5 days to go in the auction, so I'm sure the price will rise. What can I expect to pick one up for?

I will try to see if I can find one locally here to demo.

Thanks for the idea!

DH,
I found the link to the Ramsa page here it is
http://www.panasonic.com/proaudio/proahome.html

This one is direct to the DA7
http://www.panasonic.com/proaudio/da7.asp

These are probably the same ones you mentioned but I'll post it for others to see.
I admit it looks nice, and I really have liked all the Ramsa mixers I have ever worked on. But I don't see it having any more sends than the Tascam.?? Pretty much the same..
Both of them can have more outs with optional analog cards.
Older Ramsa analog boards can be modified with SSL op amps/chips according to Bill. :D I wonder if the same thing is possible with the DA7? If it is, this could be a project studio path to "real" audio at a considerable savings.. hmmmm I didn't think it was possible.. but perhaps?

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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Sorry DH, I gave you the link to the user's site. Plenty of testimony from user's there, although yes, we are biased. Fat's link is better for a feature list. There is a main stereo out on XLRs, two sets of control room outs, sends 1 & 2 are via SPDF or AES, 3,4,5 & 6 are analog. You can get the Analog card to get 8 additional outs. It is an 8 ch AD/DA card. Can find them for about $100. I didn't look at the one on E-Bay but my guess is it will go anywhere from $1500-2000 depending on what cards are installed and if there is a meter bridge on it. There are still quite a few folks buying these boards. Fat's I haven't heard of any op amp mods for this board. But it is "real audio" for a project studio. Many high level studios used them in post rooms, etc. due to their excellent sound quality. Go to PSW and ask Craig Anderton on his forum what he thinks of the mixer, he has been a user for some time. Best of luck!

Garysjo:

Took a better look at the unit that is up for sale at EBay, and I see that there are only 8 mic pres...Hmmm...do you have any links to good pictures that I could look at? I would love to see a better picture of the layout of the deck itself, and any better pictures of the back of the unit and all the connections?

Thanks!

Here's that link to the Ebay unit...4 more days and it is gone:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14986&item=932318090

Thanks!!!

Before anybody gags...the new Behringer mixer is getting some pretty good reviews. I have always been a "Behringer Basher", so I have not even considered it before (DDX 3216). Has anyone used one of these? I'm probably not really considering one, but the damn thing keeps popping up in other forums, and I have yet to hear anything bad about it...

The behringer boards have gotten bad raps for no reason IMHO.

I had an MX802 and they claim it has the same channel components as their big boys. It outclassed a 1202 Mackie hands down. Quieter, more dynamic range, cleaner, freedom from power supply drainage when loaded down.

One of my producers was using a 1604VLZ and I sent him the little MX804 behringer and said, try this. He replaced his mackie with a 24 channel 8 bus Behringer and has not looked back at all. He is getting a much better sound now and that is all that really matters.

The way the gain management in the behringers is arranged, it does not clip the crap out of the eq like a mackie does.

I will admit, the behringers were never meant to be taken on the road. they are not durable enough unless you have a fine case and travel with it by your side.

Because it is cheap does not mean it is "no good"

Cudos to the Little behringers. They do perform.

DH,
In regards to the post you made, (Not Bills)
I view these kinds of endorsements with a jaundiced eye. Most who come to these types of forums are looking for validation in regards to the purchases they have already made as well as opinions regarding future acquisitions. This is evident to me from the reactions that arise when someone gives a product a serous "bashing". I, like you, don't have such a high opinion regarding Behringer products. In my mind, there will always be a shadow of doubt cast over their marketing philosophy, because of the great Mackie debacle that started with the release of their "Eurodesk". It is so hard to get the real truth regarding products anymore because of the hyperbole disseminated by the manufactures and because a majority of the users reporting results really have no idea what they are talking about. How many of them have ever heard a Neve, SSL, MCI, Calrec, Sony or any other "REAL" console? The arrival of the home recording revolution has created a proliferation of sub standard equipment operated by recordists who simply don't know any better. The first time I was able to work on a large format console (A Trident) it was "Ohhh,... I see…." IMO it is just not possible to get "there" from "here'. There is no free lunch. A quality small format mixer with all the features and routing option just doesn't exist. The Crest and the TLA stuff are about as close as it comes IMO.

I just don't think third world countries are capable of producing high quality products consistently. I think the tolerances that they build to are more lax than in other situations. This applies to mixers and mics. Consistent high quality can't be achieved when the labor force is fresh off the rice patty (an opinion). Sure automation is a real help in this regard but real quality arises when a dedicated individual is hand tuning the diaphragm or tweaking the electronics. The products that arise from these situations are far ranging in quality match, with some examples being exceptional and others of the same run being mediocre. When you have grown up in an industrial culture, the importance of what your doing on the factory floor is much more easily understood, rather than if you have just come in off the farm on an ox cart. I also believe that living in a free market society rather than a controlled society makes a difference in the work ethic. The knowledge that your job security is directly related to your performance is a real motivation to do quality work. That is why I prefer products that are made in Europe, Japan, Taiwan and the US. In another 10 years or so if things keep going the way they are, China, Korea, and the rest of Asia will have caught up to the sensibilities and the technical abilities of the "Western" world. I am sure that this rant will draw some replies. Let me say this is in no way a slam against companies doing business with Asian manufactures, it needs to be done IMO to drag them into the 21st century. I applaud their efforts. But I still prefer German microphones and European and American consoles at the moment. For those who find these products to be useful I say "Great". I'm very happy for you! ……….. Fats

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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Hehe...so Fats...what are you *really* trying to say??? :)

:c:

I'm pretty leary about the Behringer, and the Ramsa unit looks interesting, but after looking into it's compatibility with Cubase SX, it is less attractive. The TASCAM unit is getting rave reviews over on the Cubase and Nuendo forums for its ability to control either software package...The new Yamaha unit the DM1000 is due out this spring, and it looks really promising, but has an estimated price tag of US$5,000.

So many choices! I am really hoping to go with just a single unit rather than separate mixer and control surface.

Like Fats points out however, no matter how I go, this system is never going to live up to the "real" boards, so why even try. Invest in a few really great mic pres, and use the mixer for other tasks not related to the recording signal path.

DH,
Yowzaa! That's the ticket! It all sounds like crap, so get the one that is most compatible for your use.. The Tascam is built well and is cheap too! Plus you can chop steaks on it and it will still continue to work. With the Behringer, I would be afraid to plop a clipboard loaded with track sheets on it. Fats
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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

DH, The Ramsa has 16 mic pres. The first 8 are with XLR's and phantom. The second 8 are 1/4" balanced inputs w/o phantom. I would have to agree that if your main concern is control over Cubase and Nuendo, the tascam is currently ready to go. I am a new user of Cubase and have not yet set up a control script for the DA7. I have heard there are some folks doing it. My endorsement of the DA7 was based on sound quality of the pres and AD/DA's within that class (digital board under 10K). It don't sound like a Trident 80B or a Neve 80 series, or an SSL, all though aside of the quad compressor, I'm not a big fan. Dug it in the 80's though, crunchy E-series and an early G were the only models I worked on. If I was building a room now, I'd go with an 80B, Radar rig with Nuendo, but I'm old. I've been tracking directly into the computer, but I miss a tape machine feel.

BTW, my limited experiences with Behringer were not pleasant. Bought two of the Ultracurves when they first came out for a live rig. Got em mainly because of the presets as I was playing a lot of the same rooms. Both units would drop programs at their own leisure. Both units were replaced and the replacements now do the same thing. Very unreliable pieces, plus they got that crappy dig whiney sound.....eeecck!

I wish that Behringer stuff sounded as good as it looks! It would be soooo cool if all the cheap gear sounded good! I would love it. I would much rather spend $100 on a mic pre instead of $1000! $199 on a LD condenser instead of $2500! $159 on a small pencil condenser instead of $600! $300 on a set of monitors instead of $5000 on a monitor system! I would love it. I could spend the extra money on that cabin cruiser for the high lakes I want. But unfortunately, I don't get to make the rules. (Really, Vote for Me! :D ) But there's really only one way to make good sounding gear that is consistent from channel to channel, piece to piece. That is with a lot of point to point hand wiring with quality discreet components or high quality controled PCB assemblies and lost o' joules, man! Current, plenty of it! If you can heat a snack on it, it probably sounds pretty good. If the instructions say to allow space around the unit for cooling, that is a good sign! All that costs! I gotta say though, some of that Behringer stuff looks cool, meters … big knobs … I just wish it sounded as good as it looks .. oh wait! I just said that!

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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Someone please talk me out of my lastest train of thought, because it scares the hell out of me!

I am looking pretty seriously at the Behringer DDX3216! HELP! :)

I figure for the price, how can I go wrong? And later on, if I decide that I need a better board to record through, I can always buy something then to fit those needs. My needs **right now** are met nicely with either the TASCAM or the Behringer, but with the money I save buying the Behringer, I can almost buy those API mic pres!!!

OK...so now tell me why I am an idiot!!! I won't jump on this for at least a month or so. I need to finish building my new studio desk and rearranging my studio space anyway...this gives me some time to come to my senses!!! :d:

It is just going to be embarrassing when someone knowledgable walks into my studio and sees the Behringer!!! Isn't that sad??? I am more worried about what others will think than what will best fit my needs (price/performance)!!!

Based on this comment I'm assuming you do a fair amount of commercial work vs. private. If so, your concern is real. It's good business to have these concerns! Consider how many high end facilities and engineers own full blown Alsihad rigs but hate the sound, (I also acknowledge many don't have a problem with the sound as well). They own it and use it because of the market demand. There were many facilities that during the eighties spent huge $$ on SSL consoles because you had to have it. Some loved the sound, some didn't. But they all had to have it. When purchasing a console at any price point you need to consider client's acceptance if you are a commercial facility. Considering this, the Tascam may be a wiser choice. If you do not have issues with the client's acceptance of the piece, I would look seriously into the reliability of the Behringer unit before purchasing. Have you spoken to any users?

DH,
I don't understand your need for a control surface anyway. I have been able to find the key commands list and I have all the transport functions on the arrow up /left/right and the number pad. You can slow down the rrwnd & ffwd enough to accommodate scrolling. No scrubbing but for me that's not a problem. Your thinking is correct in all aspects. Ohh factor is real … and the Tascam will have some … the Behringer has ugh factor. Based on what you have said, the financially prudent thing would be to get the API pres and lunchbox. Once you have that lunchbox you will be able to power 4 more pres or eq's and you will be able to get them for $500 apiece. (Very Cool!) Plus if you ever get smart and quit this business, you will always be able to sell the API stuff, probably for a profit! It seems to me that the mixer your using now is doing it all for you except the control surface thing.. Get the pre's (before someone else does) and then think about the TASCAM mixer. I think you will be surprised at how good it actually sounds. Look at the used equipment ads. Tascam stuff is waaaay more resalable then the Behringer gear! Forget the Behringer! Just forget it! You are slipping into a deep sleep. You will forget about the Behringer….

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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Hey Fats...the control surface need is real...once you mix in Cubase with one, it is hard to go back to the mouse! I like having the jog wheel and the transport controls handy also, it makes life soooo much easier!

As far as the API "lunchbox" that I am looking at, it is only a 1-space rack mount that has 2 mic pres installed sideways...so it is already maxed out at 2 mic pres...maybe it is not called a "lunchbox" then, but it is the power supply, mounting bracket, etc. for 2 mic pres. It is also from API...

I think everybody is right about the Behringer stuff...I'm not sure what came over me! :)

The TASCAM units are hard to find used (probably for good reason), but there is a used one on EBay right now that looks pretty good for US$1,900...

DH,
You should be able to negotiate a 30% off deal at Guitar Center for the Tascam. That would put you at $1750 for the base unit. Add $400 or $500 for a couple extra cards and you should be in business. Remember everyone, Guitar Center will almost always give you 30% off of list on almost everthing they sell! It's a fact. I never have any trouble getting these types of deals from them. You just have to ask for it. They won't offer it to you.

Actually, the list on the DM-24 is $2995, and another $995 for the Meter Bridge, $400 for the Analog I/O card. GC prices the board @ $2395, the bridge @ $850, and the Analog card $400 (I think) WAS their discounted price. They cut me another 10% when I got mine, possibly because I'd already spent another $6k with them on V-drums, a Cordoba classic cutaway electric, and 3 of their 7-guitar "bike racks", + a few mics, etc -

Point is, why give an Ebay-er almost what the board would cost new, for a crippled warranty? (Unless that price includes the bridge and a card or two, that is)

Also, James, you were looking for more analog outs? What kind? The DM has 4 assignable sends, 4 assignable returns, inserts on the stereo bus outs, XLR stereo outs, RCA and Balanced phone monitor outs; All the Digital IO is on the rear, along with 2 slots for analog, adat, cascade, AES and rumored new card - about the only thing I found a need for that required a card was more analog outs so I could monitor in surround eventually... Steve

(Oh, almost forgot - the phantom switches are on the TOP rear of the mixer, groups of 4 channels per switch...)

The TASCAM seems to be the current leader in the race, but I am pretty much limited to US$2K right now. That is going to leave out the meter bridge and any add'l cards for now, and will still probably end up being a used unit to get that price.

The only reservation I have with this unit is that it is somewhat "overkill" for my needs. This board is designed to go directly to a HD recorder, and provides all other functionality on the board. All I want is a large control surface for SX and some monitor routing! That's it!

The four analog aux sends will suffice for my monitor mixes, no problem, and if I need to use any of the mic pres, I guess I could go digital out. Without having direct analog outs before the A/D conversion is a bummer. I might be able to patch into the channel inserts to get a send before the conversion...I just obvioulsy can't go A/D into the TASCAM, them D/A back out, then A/D back into the computer, that would be *stupid*! :d: I should either go directly into the computer from the TASCAM, or take a pre A/D conversion send.

My other concern is the 2-track return is only on unbalanced RCA plugs. If I take the stereo feed from my computer, is it possible to route it to a couple of the balanced returns (stereo) instead? Otherwise, I need to use 2 of the channels to take the stereo feed from the computer.

I am also still a bit confused on how this thing will work as a control surface...for example:

Let's say I am recording 3 tracks into SX through my outboard mic pres (nothing going through the TASCAM). I have the stereo feed from SX going into the 2 track returns, and play back is from the main L+R sends/headphone sends. I am assuming that I can have the faders set up to control the rest of the mix in SX. This seems pretty straight-forward.

But now let's say *instead* that I am recording 3 tracks at once through my outboard gear as before, but now I have the digital outs from my mic pres going to the computer to be recorded, *BUT* I also take the analog outs from each channel on the mic pres and run them into the first 3 channels on the TASCAM for a monitor and headphone feed...I obviously need the faders to control the level on those channels (don't I?), so I guess now, I would lose the control surface capability, right?

Is it easy to switch back and forth between a "standard mixer" and a "control surface"?

This is becoming a very difficult choice.

Opus wrote:

More and more people are not going that route as they are waiting for what's to come out at Namm this year...be patient and I'll let you guys know what is being shown at Namm this year in Anaheim

You know DH, since your 1 & 2 needs are a control surface and various monitoring chores, it appears that Opus' earlier advice may be quite sound. Do you really have an immediate need? It sounds as those there are some new control options brewing. I have to think given the current controller options out there, that we may see expanded monitoring capabilities in the price range of the Mackie/Logic control. If you can wait, then maybe you will ultimately save some bucks over buying the Tascam and be able to allocate towards those pres!

Happy New Year! :c:

I will repeat... At Guitar Center, you can negotiate a 30% off deal. I do it all the time. It's not because they know me. I moved into my town just a year ago and I was able to get this the first time I did business with them. I used to do this same thing for years at the San Jose, Oakland and San Francisco stores in California. That means if the LIST price of the DM24 is $2995, you should be able to get out the door for around $2099.50. I would just say $2100. .. for a new unit with support and warranty. I will bet that you find the pre amps are as good as your Presonus. It will lead to a different way of working. If you get any new piece of gear like this it usually does. Just adjust to it and after a while you will be right back in there slugging away. Snag those API pres first though.

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Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK.
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Ya know Fats, that is pretty good advice when you present it that way! US$2100 + tax is still US$2226 (6% Indiana state tax). It is looking more and more like my best choice here...

Garysjo has good point too about waiting to see what comes out of NAMM...what are the dates btw?

Buy it from an out of state vendor. You can get the same price break. Just tell them what you can do at Guitar Center. All these vendors will cut 30% off the top. Hell there still making 20% or so on it. There is some stuff they have a harder time discounting but most the time it's no problem. If you buy it out of state you will save the sales tax. Shipping would be less than 126 bucks I would think.

You also mentioned;

I like having the jog wheel and the transport controls handy also, it makes life soooo much easier!

Check this out! Power Mate by Griffin Technology.. $45!
http://
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Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK.
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to

Fats, thanks for the link, but I just bought one of these, and it is already on its way...

http://www.contouravs.com/cav_shuttlepro_info.html

I paid US$81 plus shipping.

It has the jog wheel, plus programmable buttons for play/stop/record, etc. The jog wheel does not look as nice as on the one you posted, but I do like having all the other added functionality. They also already have a function set available for Cubase SX, so it should be basically "plug-n-play". :tu:

Cool, James - maybe that will take the fire out of your shorts long enough for some of the dust to settle on mixer, control surface, etc - After having already said good things about the Tascam and having one sitting in the box in my disaster area, I have to say that knowing what I know now I would have waited til about now to buy it, had I known how long it takes for ANY new product to actually get running after hitting the ground -

By that, I mean that only now does the Tascam have decent utilization of its resources due to the newer firmware updates - and I will NOT even bother to hook it up beyond basic checkout, until I send it back for the preamp replacement (seems like overkill for just a pot replacement, but...)

Other than exchanging Samplitude for Cubase SX, I bought the DM-24 for exactly the same reasons you are looking - and, eventually, it looks like my shopping list will be complete mainly thru the ongoing effort of Tascam to address the needs of its user base (MOTU, are you listening?)

When SW manufacturers finally get the idea that we want to be able to control things without constant "Rodent Intervention" and they give us full MMC for track arming, etc, the DM-24 is ready. Steinberg and Samplitude have a good start on that and will hopefully continue to add MMC features.

I'm hoping in the first half of this year to finally settle on an interface that takes the most advantage of the DM-24/Samp/Sonar, upgrade the DAW(s), and get moving on this in spite of not having a proper room yet - At least I can get the learning curve out of the way while the rest comes together.

One other thing: You're going to have to change your name to Steve, since Fats REFUSES to remember that my name is NOT James - Hope you don't mind, it's been a good name for me for 57 years, besides I wouldn't mind starting a retro band, and James Gang II seems like it'd work... :=) Signed, "The Artist Formerly Known As Steve"...

I guess the Mackie D8B is out of you're price range. They just released the new software, that turns the D8B into a HUI.

The more research I do, the more the signs point toward the TASCAM DM24. I just found out that Cubase SX has a HUI emulation mode in it, and the DM24 can now emulate a HUI. Bingo! Instant compatibility!

I am waiting to see what the Winter NAMM show brings just to be safe... ;) Opus...you promised to be my spy! Hehe...