Yes, this is true. It's like the NS10 from Yamaha..they sound very flat and dont have too much bass response. It emulates your average home stereo system. But with any speaker you need to get adjusted to them..it takes some time and proctice but once you know how much bass, high end etc etc, your mixes will sound pretty good. A lot of people dont like mixing with speakers like that but it's good practice..in fact if you look at every major studio you will see they have a pair of NS-10's in them...they're industry standard for a reason!
What model are you looking at? Every model is different in how it deals with frequency response.
Opus

Hmmmmm, I really need to get a pair of good studio monitors it seems. Right now I compare mixes with towers hooked to my computer (2-12's, 5"mid, 1" softdome) , then I check it out on three different sets of headphones, then a different room with single twelve towers, then finally in my car, and anybody else's car/home that will let me. If I can balance it out to sound OK on all that, then I'm satisfied with the mix. I want another boombox to compare on too. What I don't understand is this; I could get a set of mackie's for 1300 bucks or like Opus said a pair of Yamaha's, but why do people spend 6000 bucks for a pair of home speakers?? If they are that awesome, wouldn't studio's mix with them? I've never seen really out of this world prices on studio monitors, but I've never really searched around for that either.

Well, going out and spending 6 grand for a set of home speakers for referencing isnt the greatest idea due to accoutic properties and directional signal propogation.
It's important to have speakers with a narrower angle of projection for your ears. Thats' the key to nearfield monitors, hence their name! Mackie, Yamaha, KRK, Genelec all have a specific angle to how the sound propogates to your ears.
plus home stereo systems typically dont have the correct frequency response you need to record or listen to. You need to have something that will let you hear what is going into your system so you can make it sound like the real thing!
When you record something you dont want to over EQ it or what not to compensate for the speakers lack of integrity! Catch my drift here?!
The more "realistic" the sound is the better off you are.
Opus

cool....thanks.
i went through like, half of the recording engineering program at this school in tempe, az. and i think it was the yamaha monitors they used (plus 3 other setups). i dont remember if they were the ns10's, but i do remember they had a white center on them.
i know i want flat frequency response so i'm not cutting something the speaker amps.
i havnt yet looked at any particular model, really ive just been glancing at the prices until now when i can actually buy them.
genelec's i know are good, but i think they are a little pricey.
oh well, another thing to research the hell out of.

peas

Please, nobody mention 'NS10' and 'flat' in the same sentence again...

The whole point of NS10's is that they are _not_ flat, and really never claimed to be. They're a little closer to the frequency response of an SM57. They roll off the low end, they don't really have any extreme high end, and they push the midrange way forward- people who like them say things like 'I use them for vocals because they really put the mids under a microscope.'

The reason they're industry standard is because in the era of *only* big soffited speakers and one or two little Auratones to check mixes, Yamaha gave away a huge number of them to studios. At the time, the reaction was 'hey, they sound better than the Auratones.'

People who are used to them (like any speaker) and have been using them for years can make great mixes on them. People who are *not* used to them, and don't take their not-flatness into account, produce some really weird, unbalanced mixes- usually with a lot of really high air, too much low end, and guitars and vocals too quiet (i.e., the reverse of the speaker itself).

I don't recommend *anyone* who is not already used to NS10's buying them- they sound like crap, they fatigue you really quickly, and besides, they're not made anymore.

On the other bit of this thread, it can be really instructive to go listen to speakers that are out of your price range. I went through probably half a dozen different $300-1200 pairs of speakers, and listened to a whole lot more. Some of them were really good. However, a couple of years ago, I decided to try and find *the* monitors for me. I spent about a year driving to trade shows, local stores, and other towns to get my ears on everything in my price range (and some out of it- my price cap was $6K). I also got into as many studios as I could to listen to whatever they were using. This was an extremely instructive period for me, and really worthwhile! I ended up with my second favorites, a pair of Quested VS3208's.

Second favorite? Well, that speaks to another part of this thread- my first favorites were Dunlavys, which are really home speakers that range from the little ones around $2K up to the huge, 6' tall, 200 lb+ $15,000(+?) models. Dunlavys are probably in at least as many mastering houses as any other single brand (B&W, another home brand, is up there, too), and sound about as flat and transparent as I have ever heard. They're almost crippling in their transparency- I used to think Sun Volt's first album was pretty good sounding, but the flaws in that recording were so brutally obvious that I hear them all the time now. Conversely, a George Massenburg-recorded jazz thing I thought sounded great sounded even better on the Dunlavys. They set the bar *really* high. But, the crossovers are really gentle, and routine messups like accidentally unplugging a mic would have a pretty good chance of sending me to the replacement parts store. So, those were out for the studio.

Hope my rambling clears *something* up for someone, although I'm not sure what.... :)

BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about how narrow or wide the dispersion of your speakers are (unless you have more than one person listening at a time, in which case you want them pretty wide). As an example, some people are experimenting with SUPER wide dispersion speakers, and reporting good things- the wider the dispersion, the wider the effective sweet spot. On the other hand, the Tannoy dual concentric speakers disperse like a laser- they sound really good, but only the guy with his head *directly* in front of the drivers is going to get a good representation- everyone else is listening a little off axis, and the frequency response gets weird pretty early.

In general, wider is better- the more beamy the high end, the weirder reflections you're going to get off of side walls and other things in the room. You're going to get some sort of reflections in all but a totally dead room, so they might as well be as flat response as they can.

The theory behind nearfields is that if you get a small pair of speakers, and put them closer to you, then you will not have to deal as much with the acoustics of the room. This isn't entirely true, but hey, if your nearfields roll off below 65 hz, you're definitely not going to be bothered by that room mode at 40 Hz! (of course, you're still going to hear the one at 80, an octave up.... :)

Originally posted by Opus2000:

It's important to have speakers with a narrower angle of projection for your ears. Thats' the key to nearfield monitors, hence their name! Mackie, Yamaha, KRK, Genelec all have a specific angle to how the sound propogates to your ears.

I have to agree with Jon... IMO, NS10m's aren't in every studio because the sound good. It's more like "If you can get your mix to sound good on these POS's, it'll sound good anywhere."

I would fall somewhere in between Jon and Opus on dispersion. Not too tight, not too loose... the middle way.

Thanks Jon for the input on Dunlavy's and Quested's. I'd be curious to know your feelings on Pro(z)acs and a few others of note.

Cheers :)

p.s. This is an excellent thread, a good base for much further discussion... however I wish Opus would move it to one of the audio forums first, as it really doesn't have much to do with the computing side of things.

I didnt move it because I think I'm cooler than you "real" audiophiles over on your side of the world!! HA HA HA HA HA!!! :p
Just kidding of course!! It didnt even cross my mind to move it..besides..I dont think I can move from one page to another..I can only move to this world!
Opus

(sung to melody of old Charlie Rich tune )

Make this post - go away,
Get it off - my brouser. . .
It wasn't what I had to say,
Please make this post - go away...

If you're getting anywhere near as old as I am (and nobody is) Metamucil may help your inability to "move"...

Maybe some help from the admin gods then?

audiokid?

I never actually got to listen to the ProAcs. I think I'd like to, as some people I respect spoke reasonably highly of them, but there you go. Never got my ears on the PMC's, either, but they're supposedly so room dependent it's almost useless to listen anywhere else. The other speakers I really liked were the ribbon topped Genelecs (the depth on those things just spanks *any* other Genelecs out there, it's almost embarrasing to listen to the other models in a demo), the Hot House midsize, $6K guys were good, if a little hard, a couple others I can't think of. Wasn't too impressed with the Dynaudio BM15A's, actually, which I really wanted to like- they sounded better to me when you stuffed socks (or whatever) into the ports!

geez.................

thanks for the feedback. 6k is alittle out of my range...by about 5700 dollars.

i guess i'll just have to do a run around and listen to everything i can, wish i had the patience to do jon's search. i did a bit of looking at reviews on the ns10's and alot shot em down. i dont have an ear yet of what things should sound like truly flat so i'll need to train em probably first.

sorry for posting this subject in computing didnt really think about it. hey, they play computer music, close enough right :D

thanks guys.

the search continues........

Originally posted by jace_one:
geez.................

thanks for the feedback. 6k is alittle out of my range...by about 5700 dollars.

:)

I'd look seriously at NHT Super One's- you should be able to get them at a mid to high end hifi type shop for just over $300 (I got mine for $315). I had them as my only monitors here for about a year. They have since retired to my living room. I liked them better than the Alesis Monitor Ones (and the powered M1's, godawful pieces of crap that they are), Tannoy Reveals, Event 20/20's, NS10's, Tannoy ProtoJ's, Yorkville YSM1's (although those are pretty good bang for the buck), and some others I can't remember right now. I didn't even think the $1200 Mackies beat them clearly- the Mackies were just a little flatter in the mids with a lot more low end extension. I actually like the top on the NHT's better, even if it's a little less flat. Not a big fan of metal tweeters.

So, NHT Super Ones and a used Adcom GFA535 amp for a little over $100, and you've got my old setup that I think blew away anything near the price.

I'm always surprised that the name Hafler rarely comes up in these discussions. Especially since they are found in some of the biggest studios in the world including Capitol Records L.A. for surround and mastering. The M5s are great little passive speakers to mix on and are very accurate.
Much easier to listen to than the NSM10s, cost around 99.00 each and can take up to 200W each. Same tweeter as their acclaimed active TRM8s and same woofer as their active TRM6s.
http://www.hafler.com

Allen

I love the Hafler TRM8's, and all the P series amps are really good. The 9505 is a great amp, as well.

cool.....i'll try and find a pair of the nht's and some hafler's.
i'm on money restraint right now so it'll probably be a bit before i can really look into it. :(

thanks guys

jace,

You should check out the KRK V4's. Trust me these things translate like NS10's, deliver better bottom, and are self powered , shielded, and no fatigue. If you must have true(not hyped) bottom end, check out V6's and V8's. The V8's have a roll off switch on the back for 45, 50 & 65, go with the 45. They also have a frequecy cut -1db at ?, flat, and +1 at ?, go with the -1db at ? . These are the only two adjustments on back. Your mixes will translate real world with these speakers. They will translate better than Haflers or Mackies for that matter . These two speakers remind me of each other, because they both would work well in your home television surround system; not for critical, unflattering, mixing requirements.The NHT was a good recommendation BTW & I do like Genelecs, ADAM, & Wesltlakes(all too expensive for your purpose). Don't take anybody's word for it, hear for yourself. My pick would be V4's, I am blown away by these little monitors. I have NS10's, and my first 10hr+ session showed me why everyone hates them(besides lack of bottom end & midrange hell), but my mixes do translate at the end of the day and this is why people still use them. An NS10 headache, is one I will never forget.

Good Luck,
JT

thanks jetoney,

i'll give em a listen.

if i get some that are not self powered, then would certain amps accent certain frequency ranges?

thanks again guys i'm going to print all these suggestions to check back on in the future :)

See, now, I think that the Mackies and Haflers are much easier to do great work on than *any* of the Genelecs, except for the (head and shoulders above the entire rest of the line) S30's with the ribbon tweeters. Just goes to show, you can't make final monitor decisions for anyone but yourself, and even then you don't know for sure until the other half of the equation is heard (the room).

As far as amps go, yes, different amps sound different, but not as much as different speakers. Too big is always great- I'd say at least twice the RMS rating of the speaker is a good place to start. Just don't get any of the cheap music store crap- Alesis, Sampson, etc. The smaller Haflers are great for the price, and barring that, look at home audio stuff like Adcom and Parasound for bang for the buck.

Good luck, listen to as many speakers as possible before you buy, and don't buy from anywhere you can't return them if they're not right in your room!

cool. thanks jon.

Actually this is not true, if you mix with a cheap pair of speakers you are mixing with a speaker that has an inaccurate frequency response! And you are only making it sound good on that particular model of speaker, it could sound shit therefore on other speakers as their frequency response is terrible! I have to agree with Jon Best below who seems to know what he's talking about, the NS10'S are certainly NOT flat and should only be used as a reference monitor and mixing/monitoring at very low levels. They are very good for levelling and balancing, but for EQ'ing they are not good at all as they replicate radio transmission quality. Therefore to mix and master music to a commercial standard and get it to work well across a number of different medium, you need good quality speakers (near-fields). That way you are monitoring against a flat frequency response meaning that it will translate well on other cheaper systems! Good stuff eh! ;-)