You have good ideas but before you put any absorbsion in a room, you should know that it could change the frequency response of the room. Why ? because no material absorb the frequencies equally. The more tickness you have the more bass you will drop but it's never a strait line from 20hz to 20khz.

So in you case, without calculation, I'm guessing you will kill far too much bass with your bookcases and basstraps.
Obviously you will want to reduce fluter echo and the reverb of the room if it's not sounding good but in my opinion, I'd start by actually record some stuff in the room and listen to how bad it really sounds before doing anything to it and create new problems (ex vocal, acoustic guitar)

2 site of interest :
http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/room-eigenmodes.html

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Hello Marco! Thanks for your reply.

Of course I will do some measurements before doing anything. But anyway, in its current state you can't really record anything in that room. It sounds almost like a reverb chamber. Though the drums might sound quite cool...
The bookcases are mostly for noise leakage dampening. Maybe it would be better to cover two of them with some hard surface...

The main purpose for the room is mixing and recording vocals, maybe some drum recording. I don't use real guitar amps and I record the acoustic guitar mainly from the pickup. So I'm after a rather dry room.

What I'd really like to know is, if I'm totally wrong with the direction I'm planning to go or if you guys think that this is a legit way to do it.

Your drawings look great.
If it were me, I would get RealTraps or similar acoustic treatment from an acoustic tiling outlet, fill the corners with trapping and foam, put a cloud above you and have fun.
After you learn your room, hear the areas you don't like, which is most certainly going to be the drums no matter how much you try to improve them, replace them and/ or retrack them in a larger area like a church and forget about ever making your small room work for real drums. (at least professionally or modern sounding).
Your home is not a large studio and never will be so join the crowd of learning how to get the best you can and replace the rest through sound replacement or location room augmentation.

Even well designed studios built by pros lack the full sound you get through emulation and smart mixing yields today. Put your money into pre's that are awesome. Get great dynamic mics and/ or what helps capture you and avoids unnecessary wall reflections.
Use your new home to make music and build a control room to improve it via mixing technologies. This can be accomplished for thousands less than the never ending disappointment trying to reconstruct a home will never be.

All the money in the world will never pay off trying to get your drums to sound like they are tracked in a 40 foot ceiling plus 1 million. Treat it as best you can, and get great at mixing.

I'm sure mixing and recording vocals won't be a problem if you just reduce echo and room reverb.
You can start with a few rugs and thick curtains on the walls and it will certainly be better.
After that comes the measurements and the work on the defects alone. Big setups may look cool but we often need less, a lot less...

For leakage, you can't just put things in front of the wall with gapes between them. If you have a hole the size of a dime, you have done it for no reasons.
Soundproofing is a lot more complicated and costly than making the room usable.
The best way to block noise leakage is to build a double wall in which there is gonna be absorbtions and mass. (ex : multiple layers of sheetrocks) Or a room within a room.

Thanks for the RealTraps mention Chris. I'll add that bass traps always improve the low frequency response, and in a normal home-size room it's probably not possible to have too many bass traps. In most rooms the main problem is a lack of bass, usually caused by destructive interference from reflections coming back from the rear wall behind you. As more and more bass traps are added, the nulls improve and the result is an increase in bass. So while corners are the usual place for bass traps, the rear (and front) walls are also viable candidates. The attached graph shows the LF response in a typical size room before and after adding bass traps.

--Ethan

Attached files

Chris, post: 425780, member: 1 wrote: Your drawings look great.

Thanks Chris. Doing things like that is my daytime job.

Recording drums isn't a priority. If I do record drums I will definitely replace or enhance with samples.

I just want to be able to practice without too much leakage to the neighbors. That's why I planned on adding the book cases. I wouldn't leave any gaps and thought that they would add some extra protection.

The real traps look nice, but they are a bit too expensive for my needs. I think the diy solution would do it for me. Do you think 3" is enough or would you make them thicker? 4 or 5"?

I'm well aware that the room will never be Perfect.

Ethan Winer, post: 425792, member: 1430 wrote: Thanks for the RealTraps mention Chris. I'll add that bass traps always improve the low frequency response, and in a normal home-size room it's probably not possible to have too many bass traps. In most rooms the main problem is a lack of bass, usually caused by destructive interference from reflections coming back from the rear wall behind you. As more and more bass traps are added, the nulls improve and the result is an increase in bass. So while corners are the usual place for bass traps, the rear (and front) walls are also viable candidates. The attached graph shows the LF response in a typical size room before and after adding bass traps.

--Ethan

Hello Ethan,

As you can see in my drawing there's a subwoofer for my secondary monitors beneath the desk. Would you put some kind of absorber/trap between the subwoofer and the wall?

Ethan Winer @Chris ouzo77 pcrecord

Remember that you can also increase the efficiency of absorbent material if you put an air gap between it and the boundary. For example, you don't have to mount the cloud directly to the boundary above you. You can suspend it down from the ceiling, which will increase it's efficiency... (maybe "efficiency is the wrong term here...? ... maybe "effectiveness" is better terminology? Ethan can weigh in and correct me if I'm describing it wrong.)

DonnyThompson, post: 425844, member: 46114 wrote: Remember that you can also increase the efficiency of absorbent material if you put an air gap between it and the boundary.

I thought of this to be true for absorbtions but not for soundproofing. Of course when you reduce room reverb you have less build ups so less spills. ;)

ouzo77, post: 425793, member: 27807 wrote: Do you think 3" is enough or would you make them thicker? 4 or 5"?

at least 4" ..... and if you can, use rigid fiberglass instead of rock wool. 1" spacer blocks will increase efficiency.

imo, your plans look pretty good. the one thing that alarms me is your mention of a sub woofer in conjunction with the ceiling height. [="http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/"]a minimum dimension of 7.5 feet will allow for a 150 Hz. bass wave to fully form.[/]="http://www.waveleng…"]a minimum dimension of 7.5 feet will allow for a 150 Hz. bass wave to fully form.[/] keep this in mind and try not to stuff 10 lbs. of stuff into a 5 lb. bag. you cannot make boundaries "disappear". all you can do is to minimize their effect. one way to do this is to not introduce lo freq energy into the room below a pre determined frequency.

after you place all the absorption, [[url=http://="http://www.google.c…"]try to do an analysis of some type on the room[/]="http://www.google.c…"]try to do an analysis of some type on the room[/] and look for nulls and peaks. then you can go in with the membrane or Helmholtz traps at targeted frequencies. it makes much more sense to do it that way than to just plaster up a sh*tload of expensive freq specific traps that are working where you don't need them to. absorption for broadband, traps for specific problem freqs. see [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.google.c…"]Everest's book[/]="http://www.google.c…"]Everest's book[/] for detailed DIY info on traps and absorbers.

pcrecord, post: 425849, member: 46460 wrote: I thought of this to be true for absorbtions but not for soundproofing. Of course when you reduce room reverb you have less build ups so less spills. ;)

That's what I thought.

Kurt Foster, post: 425854, member: 7836 wrote: at least 4" ..... and if you can, use rigid fiberglass instead of rock wool. 1" spacer blocks will increase efficiency.

imo, your plans look pretty good. the one thing that alarms me is your mention of a sub woofer in conjunction with the ceiling height. [="http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/"]a minimum dimension of 7.5 feet will allow for a 150 Hz. bass wave to fully form.[/]="http://www.waveleng…"]a minimum dimension of 7.5 feet will allow for a 150 Hz. bass wave to fully form.[/] keep this in mind and try not to stuff 10 lbs. of stuff into a 5 lb. bag. you cannot make boundaries "disappear". all you can do is to minimize their effect. one way to do this is to not introduce lo freq energy into the room below a pre determined frequency.

after you place all the absorption, [[url=http://="http://www.google.c…"]try to do an analysis of some type on the room[/]="http://www.google.c…"]try to do an analysis of some type on the room[/] and look for nulls and peaks. then you can go in with the membrane or Helmholtz traps at targeted frequencies. it makes much more sense to do it that way than to just plaster up a sh*tload of expensive freq specific traps that are working where you don't need them to. absorption for broadband, traps for specific problem freqs. see [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.google.c…"]Everest's book[/]="http://www.google.c…"]Everest's book[/] for detailed DIY info on traps and absorbers.

Hello Kurt.

Do you mean 1" spacers for the wall mounted absorbers?

The subwoofer is only for the secondary monitors, which are a 2.1 system from Syrincs. I don't use them very often. Usually I monitor on Yamaha HS80's on low to moderate levels.
I never mix with high levels.

ouzo77, post: 425881, member: 27807 wrote: Do you mean 1" spacers for the wall mounted absorbers?

yes

ouzo77, post: 425794, member: 27807 wrote: Would you put some kind of absorber/trap between the subwoofer and the wall?

Even better, put the subwoofer against the wall, then slide it left and right in 2-4 inch increments while measuring the low frequency response.

--Ethan

Ethan, you mean it should touch the wall? Don't think I can put it so close to the wall. It will have a 0.5" gap at least.

DonnyThompson, post: 425844, member: 46114 wrote: Ethan Winer @Chris ouzo77 pcrecord

Remember that you can also increase the efficiency of absorbent material if you put an air gap between it and the boundary. For example, you don't have to mount the cloud directly to the boundary above you. You can suspend it down from the ceiling, which will increase it's efficiency... (maybe "efficiency is the wrong term here...? ... maybe "effectiveness" is better terminology? Ethan can weigh in and correct me if I'm describing it wrong.)

Mine are all suspended, as are all the RealTraps I have . Thats how they are designed to work.
I have 13 in total and I would love another dozen + for my piano room now. Plus, I would love to have a few of Ethan's stands for the sides where I mix and for a window in the piano room. Easy to place and remove at will.
For those who haven't seen RealTraps, they are beautifully made so they not only work well, but they look good in a nicely designed musical home or studio. The way they install and hang is really well thought out.

No, I don't work for RealTraps but I don't have any inhibitions in passing on the love for them. Well deserved imho.

ouzo77, post: 425936, member: 27807 wrote: Ethan, you mean it should touch the wall? Don't think I can put it so close to the wall. It will have a 0.5" gap at least.

It doesn't have to touch the wall. When a speaker is closer to a boundary, the peak and null frequencies that result from those reflections are higher. At four inches away the first null is at 850 Hz. This is easily tamed with thin absorption, but even that's not needed because speakers don't radiate frequencies that high from their rear. So just put your sub close to the wall and slide it left and right while measuring. Being close to the wall also increases its output, letting you turn down the volume which in turn reduces distortion.

--Ethan

Ethan Winer, post: 425978, member: 1430 wrote: It doesn't have to touch the wall. When a speaker is closer to a boundary, the peak and null frequencies that result from those reflections are higher. At four inches away the first null is at 850 Hz. This is easily tamed with thin absorption, but even that's not needed because speakers don't radiate frequencies that high from their rear. So just put your sub close to the wall and slide it left and right while measuring. Being close to the wall also increases its output, letting you turn down the volume which in turn reduces distortion.

--Ethan

Correct me if I'm wrong Ethan but you are saying that a sub (which may produce between frequencies between 30hz-250hz) will create a null at 850hz?
And how can you never have too much bass traps ?
I'm all with you that when doing measurements moving the sub around is a good thing, but help me understand, it's like you are giving a part of a solution without the foundations... I'm not nagging, I'm just interested to learn about room acoustics.

Ethan Winer, post: 425978, member: 1430 wrote: It doesn't have to touch the wall. When a speaker is closer to a boundary, the peak and null frequencies that result from those reflections are higher. At four inches away the first null is at 850 Hz. This is easily tamed with thin absorption, but even that's not needed because speakers don't radiate frequencies that high from their rear. So just put your sub close to the wall and slide it left and right while measuring. Being close to the wall also increases its output, letting you turn down the volume which in turn reduces distortion.

--Ethan

Okay. Thanks for all the great information to all of you.
We're moving in 3 weeks. So it will be at least a month before I will/can do anything in the room. It's not my wife's priority! ;-)

pcrecord, post: 425990, member: 46460 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong Ethan but you are saying that a sub (which may produce between frequencies between 30hz-250hz) will create a null at 850hz?
And how can you never have too much bass traps ?

I think he meant speakers in general. And since it's a subwoofer I don't need any absorbtion.

This was the chain of posts:

Ethan Winer, post: 425934, member: 1430 wrote: Even better, put the subwoofer against the wall, then slide it left and right in 2-4 inch increments while measuring the low frequency response.

ouzo77, post: 425936, member: 27807 wrote: Ethan, you mean it should touch the wall? Don't think I can put it so close to the wall. It will have a 0.5" gap at least.

Ethan Winer, post: 425978, member: 1430 wrote: It doesn't have to touch the wall. When a speaker is closer to a boundary, the peak and null frequencies that result from those reflections are higher. At four inches away the first null is at 850 Hz.

ouzo77, post: 426012, member: 27807 wrote: I think he meant speakers in general. .

That might be so, but it was his answer to your question about the subwoofer and a sub is a speaker. I just wanted him to precise and not mixing oranges and apples ;)
I can get the nuances but it's best to be clear in the informations given specially for those who can crash into the thread via google or other search engine ;)

ouzo77, post: 426012, member: 27807 wrote: And since it's a subwoofer I don't need any absorbtion.

Sorry, I don't get that statement.

Here's my opinion. You don't NEED anything unless there is a problem!
I know that your sub is part of a secondary system that you might not use often. So what you have to measure, is are your main monitors giving enough bass or too much bass? That's the time to add bass trap or not or to move them in the room.
You have too much of 200hz in your room? add absorbtion that will be effective to that frequency.
You have flutter echo or bad reverb, act on it.

People put anything in their room just because they see others do it. Don't spend futil money, uses what is NEEDED for you get a nice room to record and mix in.

pcrecord, post: 426014, member: 46460 wrote: Sorry, I don't get that statement.

I was referring to Ethan's statement "This is easily tamed with thin absorption, but even that's not needed because speakers don't radiate frequencies that high from their rear." to my question if he would put anything between the wall and the subwoofer.

If you'd have been in that room you would know that it definitely needs something! ;-) Probably more than your average room. After all, it's a basement room with stone walls, tiled floor and a low ceiling.
But don't worry, I'm not going to do anything before doing some measurements.

ouzo77, post: 426022, member: 27807 wrote: I was referring to Ethan's statement "This is easily tamed with thin absorption, but even that's not needed because speakers don't radiate frequencies that high from their rear." to my question if he would put anything between the wall and the subwoofer.

Again this is confusing, the back of speakers will radiate low frequencies more than high frequencies and thicker absorbtion material is needed to affect lower frequencies.

Ok, here is what my plan would be :

1. Reduce flutter echo and natural reverb of the room : this could be done with some thick carpets , thick draps or curtains on the walls. Or putting diffusion object like bookshelf or diffuser pannels (once you know which frequencies are to be controled you can replace the draps or curtains by tuned acoustic pannels
2. Take some measurements
3. Take care of the early reflections from the monitors.
4. Take some measurements
5. Install appropriate acoustic pannels
6. Take some measurements
   Now measurements may elude some people.
   Measurement could be done with a spectrum analyser with a reference mic or with a simple db meter(and playing slow frequency sweeps) to identify the peaks that need to be adressed.
   Or you can make calculations through some free sites by entering dimensions and surface descriptions and materials or have pros analyse the room for you.

   BUT this is MY PLAN and I think we forgot some very important questions before all this :
   At what level do you want the room to be ?
   How profesionnal the work in it can become ?
   What kind of budget do you have and what kind of revenu do you think you'll get out of it ?

pcrecord, post: 426026, member: 46460 wrote:
At what level do you want the room to be ?
How profesionnal the work in it can become ?
What kind of budget do you have and what kind of revenu do you think you'll get out of it ?

I am not a professional. I will use the room for my own music.

This is how my "studio" looks like at the moment:

The right "wall" beside the desk is the back of a bookcase. I share the room with my 10-month old son's bed and dressing table. :)

The results I get in this room are like this:
https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/195003555?secret_token=s-wxCJz&

Though I must admit that I mainly mix on headphones due to the fact, that my kid sleeps in the same or the next room...

I'd like the room to be on a level where I can mix on low volumes and be able to trust what I'm hearing from my speakers.
I'd like the results to sound as professional as possible.
My budget is about 300–500 € (325–550 $). The revenue would be about 0,- and hopefully a lot of fun! Well, maybe somebody will buy my CD when it's finished.

Btw, I've tracked the drums (Snare is replaced with samples) in the practice room of my band. It's quite similar to my new room (stone walls, low ceiling) but more rectangular than square. And with more stuff in it.

I'm glad that you've answered my questions. It makes no sens to send you to a journey of fully tuned room with 550$.

The first thing I noticed is the Yamaha monitors. I have those as well (mine are the hs8).
Since they have a bass port at the back, they need space behind them to build bass.
according to the manual ; 1.5m
I would take that in consideration when setting up in a bigger room.

I will listen to you recording when I get to the studio tonight, be in the mean time, I can see by the picture that you already have some little acoustic pannels and recommend setting does up in the room before spending more money.
You need to evaluate how much Spill to the neighbor you have because this may be your priority if you want to play drum in the new room.
Because you could very well be topping your budget if you need to double the wall to add mass with resilient bars and sheetrock. Again another question, can you modify the room or the walls, is it your house or are you renting ?

Some suggestions to save money :

For Very basic acoustics panels placement:

Sorry, I should have clarified that earlier.

1.5 m is too much. I'd be sitting almost closer to the backwall than the front.
At the moment they're as far to the wall as I could get them, as you can see. The bass is okay imo.

I didn't heave the time to watch the videos yet. But thanks for sharing.

The house is ours. What modifications do you have in minde?

ouzo77, post: 426037, member: 27807 wrote: At the moment they're as far to the wall as I could get them, as you can see. The bass is okay imo.

Maybe, but you are in a small room where you might have a build up. Once in your next room, it might be different.
5 feet is what is recommanded, any distance will help..

ouzo77, post: 426037, member: 27807 wrote: The house is ours. What modifications do you have in minde?

In case the drum is too loud for the neighbors, you might need to reinforce the wall you share with them. But let's hope you it doesn't come to that ;)

^^^ Exactly.

pcrecord, post: 426042, member: 46460 wrote: Maybe, but you are in a small room where you might have a build up. Once in your next room, it might be different.
5 feet is what is recommanded, any distance will help..

I think I've read somewhere that, if you can't place the speakers far enough from the wall it's better to place them as near as possible.

Regarding the drum noise – maybe I will play a bit and ask the neighbors afterwards if it was too loud.

ouzo77, post: 426074, member: 27807 wrote: I think I've read somewhere that, if you can't place the speakers far enough from the wall it's better to place them as near as possible.

Not sure about that, but it would certainly create nulls at different frequencies as Ethan said.

ouzo77, post: 426074, member: 27807 wrote: Regarding the drum noise – maybe I will play a bit and ask the neighbors afterwards if it was too loud.

That could save you great money ! ;)
Just tell them that once the reverb will be down in the room there will be less build up so it will be lower db for them (just a bit)