sorry about being such a post whore right now...

these pictures are really rough. i think i had the camera on the wrong setting or something. anyways, here they are.

the first two show how i achieved the "measurements" of the distances for the first mic. it was pretty simple, but it looks really odd and i don't know how many drummers are going to be please with you putting tape on their heads (or their drum heads, ha...sorry) i would suggest sending any clients out for a bite to eat while you set these up. i think this is a very accurate method, so long as you have a good feel for the tension on the lines and can replicate it in the proper direction.

...and these were shot after the second mic was put in place. again, i'm sorry about the quality - it's a logitech clicksmart 310, so that's about as good as it gets.

the second mic ended up being rough 4" back and to the right of our drummer's head, but still had an unobstructed line to the snare.
first impressions of the technique: i like it. it's certainly not as simple as setting up an X/Y pair, but it's so different and still achieves great results. over the weekend, i'll try to get some samples up if i have time. thanks to everybody that helped explain this oddity. one final question though: how popular is this technique in the business? is it just something home recording enthusiasts are doing so that the pros can sneak away with the real techniques?

Attached files

If it sounds good, it is good. If not, then go to plan B.

Cool rig Erik!

I have the definite advantage of being my drummer, engineer, and locked-up studio. So I've worked months on dialing this in, and don't have to strike it or set up different kits. One drummer, one kit, for all time. MuhahaHAHAHAH!!!!!

I'm fine now.

I like the image, because it's not super-wide and it's not mono. Toms ring around the horn just fine and hat/snare pops in both channels. It's the sound I'm going for, but may not be for everyone.

Cheers-

recorderman, hi

with this setup, you said you pointed both mics at the snare to get a better snare sound...

i have an sm57 (snare), d112 (kickc) and a pair of mk012 (oh), i want to get a nice spread (but not exagerated) sound in toms and cymbals...if i already have a nice snare sound i point the OH to the toms right? the same tom? left rack and floor? am i making any sense here??

Well, I finally got around to trying this out... and the imaging is really great... why did I wait so long...

If you're interested I've posted three overhead micing techniques for comparison:

* Modified Spaced Mics (Recorderman Method)
* Spaced Mics
* Coincident Mics

The Clips are only the overheads which are a pair of Josephson e22S mics.

The mics are 38 inches from the Snare strike point and 54 inches from the Kick mallet strike point.

The kit is a five piece set of Pearl Exports and Sabian Cymbals.

Here's pics of each setup...

Modified Spaced Mics (Recorderman Method)

Spaced Mics

Coincident Mics

[ March 05, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Sonixx ]

Originally posted by MemoGtr:
recorderman, hi

with this setup, you said you pointed both mics at the snare to get a better snare sound...

i have an sm57 (snare), d112 (kickc) and a pair of mk012 (oh), i want to get a nice spread (but not exagerated) sound in toms and cymbals...if i already have a nice snare sound i point the OH to the toms right? the same tom? left rack and floor? am i making any sense here??

Yes...I point them at the toms as well many times.

Oh...and Sonixx, How are those Josephson's? I'm interested in getting a bunch of them for toms (top & bottom application).

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
... Sonixx, How are those Josephson's? I'm interested in getting a bunch of them for toms (top & bottom application).

I wish my budget would allow these for Toms... I haven't applied them on Toms yet... so not much help there.

I find them slightly dark (which I prefer) but with good detail. I have used them on several acoustic guitars and the e22S is going to be my go to mic. I don't think the e22S is a one trick pony.

I bought them for overheads and so far I haven't been dissappointed and with your modified Spaced Micing technique, these definitely fit the bill.

Hope this helped some...

Speaking of phase i thought i'd drop this note to add to the "if it sounds good it is good category "...

I just read an interesting article in the march 2004 electronic musician magazine where engineer Frank Filipetti (who i hadn't heard of but he's recorded many people, from Barbara Striesand to Korn... so he's got a pretty diverse skill set going on) talks about intentionally putting certain mics out of phase when micing drums, bass amps and guitar amps in order to use the comb filtering to eliminate frequencies that he doesn't want in the sound. He goes on to say that he finds it more effective than using EQ.

A technique not for the feint of heart to be sure but i thought it was pretty interesting. While understanding phase is essential here's a guy who has taken it to the next level where he is not eliminating phase issues but bending them to his purpose... great stuff.

Anyway, in the end it pretty much added up to "if it sounds good it is good... so just move the mics around until it sounds good."

cheers,
greg

hey
isnt two drumsticks a klnda short distance? am afraid the drummer may hit the mic(s)...

It depends on the player. two sticks is just a rule of thumb. I'm using 38 inches from the snare when I record my son... i setup around his playing style.

so as long as both mic have the same distance from kick/snare is ok, right?

Originally posted by MemoGtr:
so as long as both mic have the same distance from kick/snare is ok, right?

right... i believe Recorderman recommended two sticks because two sticks are available and easy to use. of course, increasing the distance will pick up a bit more of room.

but yea, make the distance from the snare impact point to both mics the same and make the kick beater point to both mics the same.

ok...one more thing, is there something you recommend to get more toms a little less cymbals? im afraid that the toms wont be "heard"

Sonixx..I just listened to your sample and I'd like to say thanks for posting them w/ pictures..that was very nice of you..

I personally thought the spaced and modified spaced pair sounded out of phase, the coincident pair sounded in phase. It's strange that the spaced pair sounds out of phase because I use this technique and don't usually have that problem...
Again thanks for posting the comparisons...I really enjoy things like that.

Hey Randy, how about elaborating more on your out of phase comment. Are you referring to collapsing to Mono?

I think I need to raise the back mic some because I have noticed that on some cymbals my son's movements (probably arms) interfere with the back mic... but surely not with the spaced mics.

No collapsing to mono..just listening to the stereo speakers on my computer. It seemed slightly out of phase....about 150 degrees or so.

No 50 degrees isn't accurate..my hearing isn't that good..just a guess. Out of phase stuff nag's at my ears...I can't explain it..but I do know it when I hear it. I'll take a listen again tomorrow and maybe switch to mono to see what happens..

I don't think I'm interpreting your Out-of-Phase term correctly. Do you mean shift of image...

I worked out the RecorderMan geometry, and it translates easily into a simple jig.

Make a tee from 1/2" pvc pipe. As an example, make the leg 5' long and the tee 4' wide.

Place the leg at the kick beater. Imagine a mic at either end of the tee. No matter how you twist or rotate the tee, both mics are equidistant from the kick point.

Next, attach one end of a string to each end of the tee. This gives you a loop that hangs from the tee ends.

The center of the string loop is where the snare impact point is located.

This admittedly awkward jig will drive home the concept of the RecorderMan technique. Once you see it done physically, it will make perfect sense to you.

The distance between snare and kick is different, depending on the length of the string. However, both snare and kick are always equidistant from both overheads, and centered in the image field.

bgavin,

"The center of the string loop is where the snare impact point is located."

You lost me there.

So, you pick an arbitrary length of string that is longer than the tee, and tie each end of the string to each end of the tee? Then the sting is pulled taught at its' centerpoint to form a triangle with the tee? Is that where the mic goes? I thought the mics went at each end of the tee?

Please back up, slow down, and add some detail to your instuctions in terms of where to put the mics and exactly what to do with that string.

Dean

Originally posted by bgavin:
I worked out the RecorderMan geometry, and it translates easily into a simple jig
.
.
.
However, both snare and kick are always equidistant from both overheads, and centered in the image field.

Am i missing something here... why not just take a tape measure and measure the distances. It take about a minute once you've done it once...

Great thread!
I spent a good 4 hrs yesterday getting drum sounds for a long-term project. After going through the usual rigamarole of moving mics, fine tuning phase issues, getting a good room sound etc. (I always start with the overheads) I finally got just about the best kit sound I've ever gotten. Really, it flat out rocks.

At the end of the session yesterday I find this thread poking through the forums, and go check out our drum mics, which are still set up. Yup. EXACTLY where Recorderman said to put em! Coulda saved myself half a day I guess, but it was more fun taking the long route anyway.

FWIW... I've posted a clip of my kit using the Recorderman Mic'ing technique.

Click here for Full Kit Clip

Look for the Full Kit Title.

There's three clips in the MP3:

1) Overheads Dry

3) #2 plus the close mics (Kick, Tom bottoms and Snare bottom)

Sonixx,

Is that an smaller, untensioned drumhead on the kick's batter side? What am I seeing there?

Dean

Originally posted by deanp920:
Sonixx,

Is that an smaller, untensioned drumhead on the kick's batter side? What am I seeing there?

Dean

hey deanp920,

Yep... it's a G1 Clear (rim and all) taped on.

Cool, Sonixx!

Is the G1 taped on such that an air gap exists between it and the kick batter, or is it the other way around(no gap)?

Can you elaborate a bit on where you acquired this technique. Theory?

Your clips sound good.

Dean

Originally posted by deanp920:
Cool, Sonixx!

Is the G1 taped on such that an air gap exists between it and the kick batter, or is it the other way around(no gap)?

The G1 is kind of loose. I used really thick and strong Duct tape. I'm not sure what you mean by air gap... basically the G1 is just taped to the Kick head.

Can you elaborate a bit on where you acquired this technique. Theory?

Your clips sound good.

Dean

Thanks... I probably found this technique by reading the forums. I'm not sure when I read it. Not sure of the theory... I just know it works for what I want. I have tried several head types, clear and coated, with and without the ring. I found a fully intact clear 14 inch G1 was the ticket. Also, I have no other muffling of any kind in the kick... nor in any other drum for that matter. I have probably tried every form of kick muffling and this method is to my liking the best. The kick head is part of an Evans EQ3 system... but without the system.

Thanks...

Originally posted by deanp920:
"The center of the string loop is where the snare impact point is located."

So, you pick an arbitrary length of string that is longer than the tee, and tie each end of the string to each end of the tee? Then the sting is pulled taught at its' centerpoint to form a triangle with the tee? Is that where the mic goes? I thought the mics went at each end of the tee?

Your confusion is the entire basis behind making a simple PVC jig. Once you see it work, it becomes obvious.

1) A mic is placed at either end of the tee.
2) The "leg" end of the jig is at the kick beater point.
3) The midpoint of the string is at the snare impact point.

You are dealing with two triangles: one formed entirely of PVC (tee ends + leg end). The second triangle points are the tee ends, and the string mid point.

The RecorderMan technique requires the pair of mics to be equidistant from the kick, and equidistant from the snare.

The jig approach allows an assistant to rapidly set up overheads, without tape measures or having to understand how it works. The kick and snare sit dead center in the tracks.

between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

greg

between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

greg

Sonixx,

I was talking about the gap that would be created by the G1's rim acting as a spacer between the two heads. If you flip the head over, there's no spacer anymore.

Which way do you have it?

Also, with nothing inside my kick, I get that "beachball" sound regardless of what I do to the head(s). Have you ever encountered this?

bgavin,

I understand your jig now...snare impact point = spot where drumstick hits the snare head. How long is the string on your particular setup?

I LOVE jigs!

Dean

String length = cut to taste.

A longer string puts the mics "higher" and more forward above the kick and cymbals, and farther from the snare.

I have not yet worked out a simple means of changing the string length. It has to be ultra simple, but effective.

The initial setting is determined by the recording engineer using trial and error methods to get his desired sound. The jig is sized accordingly, then the assistant can place it accurately every time with minimal fuss.

When I was an engineer at IBM, we were forced to suspend using the word "jig" because of imagined racial connotations.

Poppycock.

:D

Every tool maker understands what a jig is, and this one is just a tool for mic placement.

Originally posted by deanp920:
Sonixx,
I was talking about the gap that would be created by the G1's rim acting as a spacer between the two heads. If you flip the head over, there's no spacer anymore.

Which way do you have it?

Also, with nothing inside my kick, I get that "beachball" sound regardless of what I do to the head(s). Have you ever encountered this?

Hi deanp920,

The batter side of the G1 is taped to the kick head. The G1 rim is not touching the kick head.

How tight is your kick head? Attach the G1 to the Kick head, then tune your kick head. Mine is fairly loose, but no wrinkles.

Sonixx,

My kick is tuned similarly, but I'm beginning to think that some of the pinging problem is the gloss laquer finish inside my kick(Taye Studio Maple 18X22).

A small wad of cloth inside the drum not even touching the heads gets rid of that beach ball sound.

Like you, I like my kit wide open, with no muffling.

Dean

I´ve learned a lot from this thread since I found it!!! :D Now I know how to place the OH right on the spot, taking care of distance between both. After trying this tecnique some questions came up to me: If I add snare & kick mics, where should I point both overheads??. Does the kick needs to be in the middle (talking about OH), what if I point them to the toms or floor tom??. Moving the phase switches and having no difference in the sound means no phase problems??.

Thanks
TS

TamaSabian wrote: If I add snare & kick mics, where should I point both overheads??. Does the kick needs to be in the middle (talking about OH), what if I point them to the toms or floor tom??. Moving the phase switches and having no difference in the sound means no phase problems??.

Thanks
TS

Pointing @ the toms can be very good. I do that many times. The goal of this particular technique is to equalize the thebalamce of the kick and snare between the channels (L&R) and to make the kick, snare toms greater in balance relative to the cymbals.

If you are flipping phase switches and it makes little or no difference, that means your neither completely in nor completely pout of phase. Not necessarily good. The better place to be in is when switching the phase (or polarity) buttons results in a thinner sound one way...that would be out of phase. Once you find that, flip the opposite way and you should have fuller, rounder, bigger, fatter (pick a nice analog adjective) drums.

The better place to be in is when switching the phase (or polarity) buttons results in a thinner sound one way...that would be out of phase. Once you find that, flip the opposite way and you should have fuller, rounder, bigger, fatter (pick a nice analog adjective) drums.

That´s exactly what was happening to me when I figure out this technique, but I thought that I was doing something wrong.
One more question: If I point the OH to the toms, I need to be sure that kick is in the center of both OH???.

Thanx again
TS

[quote=TamaSabian]

One more question: If I point the OH to the toms, I need to be sure that kick is in the center of both OH???.

Thanx again
TS

That's a judgement call. I Like it in the center. But you amy roll out some lo end and the Kick mic itself will help solidify the center/bottom end. Make adjustments, leiten asn ask yourself if you are heraing everythung the way you want. If not...adjust. Don't get so far and think you're going to magically fix it in the mix. Make it happen now.

So is it possible to point the two overheads at the toms (one at the rack tom and the right on the floor tom... basically pointing down?) and still get the snare and kick in the center of the stereo image?

I was able to try this technique really quickly the other day (got the two mics the same distance) but i didnt have time to finely adjust the two etc. I want the overheads to really pick up the toms besides just the cymbals and snare because i will close mik the snare and also the kick.

One of the problems i have is even when my preamp gain is all the way down on my overhead condensor mics it sometimes clips because of the snare (even when they arent really pointed at the snare)... should i just try to point more at the toms and maybe making the mics higher?

sonixxx:

thanks for those pics and files... what compression settings did you use for those overheads?

thanks

wear headphones and listen to the two mics panned hard left and right with equal gain on each. As you position the mics pointing @ Rack & Floor respectively) have the drummer lightly tap snare and kick. You can then adjust my inches and fractions thereof until you achieve the desired balance.

Thanks Recorderman I will try that.

i'm really excited about this new drum micing technique... so far (without even fine tuning much) its given me the best drum sounds ive ever had (before mostly doing spaced overheads...would never give me much balance).

photoresistor wrote: ...sonixxx:

thanks for those pics and files... what compression settings did you use for those overheads?

thanks

hey photoresistor, the compression depends on the players style. when I track myself, I generally use a very low ratio 1.2 or less, slow attack and fast release and low threshold maybe around -30db. but for instance with my son, he plays the cymbals a lot harder, so I use an exciter to tame the cymbals (very fast attack and release) to bring up the drum hits (threshold balances Drum to Cymbal), followed with a general compression similar to above. I set the exciter to bring up the drums and get out of the way of the cymbals and the compressor is a leveler. each song usually requires a different approach.

two plugin compressors I use a lot are the PSP Vintage Warmer and Waves RCOMP. I usually only use the Vintage Warmer on the whole kit mix and on the Kick.