Could you use one or two XLR lines for a headphone return? Also, what kind of studio doesn't have a stereo cue mix?

THe one I work at

nor does mine......

RECORDERMAN thanX for all your info on this OH-setup. Really dig it...

One more question:
In a few weeks I'm gonna record a band of a friend of mine. It's a budget thing: I'm not gonna work in on of the studio's I normally like to track (cause they don't have the money), so we're going to record with the stuff I have at home. (it's gonna be a PT recording in their big rehearsal room.)
The band plays rock (Black Crowes kinda stuff).

Because I have to do it with my "home stuff" I don't have much choice for the overhead setup.
It's gonne be a pair of AKG C3000's, or two (different) Neumann's: a M147 & U87.
(The pre's are Trident-MTA sig2)
What would you choose? The matched pair of C3000's or the U87 above the snare and the M147 on the FloorTom side??

ThanX in advance!

Hi guys, could any of you post an audio file of the results? I would love to hear it, but don't have a drummer on hand. thanks!!!

Great thread gentlemen! :cool:

One of the best features of a digital multitrack or DAW is the ability to slip drum tracks by the sample provided you have the time. The trick is to slide each mike back to match the most distant ones, usually the overheads. This is far more effective than just ballparking it with a phase switch plus you don't invert the waveform which is often an audible degradation. Another advantage of a DAW is that rather than guessing with gates, you can create a perfect envelope for each drum hit.

Yo RecorderMan, broke out your OH measuring technique again during my session today, with the usual result: puzzlement and skepticism on the part of the drummer, giving way to near-worshipful adulation and comments like: "GODLIKE drum sound! My kit has never sounded this good!" etc.

Thx again!

Originally posted by gie:
RECORDERMAN thanX for all your info on this OH-setup. Really dig it...

ThanX in advance!

I'd use the U87/M147.
Since you'll be doing it guerilla style, and I assume you won't have alot of mics&channels , and you'll be in a rehearsal space (not a properly designed;a.k.a. "good sounding space), I'd use the Fatter, fuller mics...even though they're not matched. The OH will be your Kit sound & they'll pick up enough room.

(Don't be afraid to experiment. You could also try two mics in mono. U87; two sticks over the snare and the M147 out in front of the kit about the height of the kick drum...or...experiment.)

...But if you do use the "two drum stick OH technique" try listening to each of the mics in each position. That is.
1. U87 over snare;M147 towards floor tom, AND
2. M147 over snareU87 towards floor tom. One combination over the other will probably be real obvious...or not...you won't actually know untill you hear it...good Luck

So, what was the final call on the phase issue thing then? I mean, when a kick drum is hit, we want our speaker to push outwards 1st, probably the same for snare and other drums, correct? So in that case, should we just automatically reverse the phase on the overheads, or no? And if so, what about the inside-the-kick mic that we may have in there? If we reverse that to match the overheads, then we arent getting the "speaker pushing out" effect... or are we?
Geez, I'm thinking too much. Any answers here?

Geez, I'm thinking too much. Any answers here?[/QB]
...Yes you are
:eek:
You're thinking too black and white. If you want to really get a handle on this whole "phase/polarity" issue, I recommend:
1. Taking the plunge and purchasing a polarity checker. they cost a couple of hundred; and you can start educating yourself.
2. Learn to place mic's with headphones on...it's an eduction and allows "realtime" judgement on placements and relationships...you can hear when things are "in phase", "out of phase" and anything inbtween.

I also would argue that the only mic to worry about as far as absolute polarity is first kick mic;that is,which ever one will make the majority of your kick sound. Do this one with the "absolute polarity clicker." After that...USE YOU EARS. All tother mics in your drum set-up should be close to relative phase compared to this mic, by ear. If any other mic is too far out of phase with this first mic, then the kick will sound thin. You should never have to flip your OH's 180 degrees from the kick or snare. If you do then either something in the chain is wired 180 out of polarity or their in the wrong spot. Height plays a big part. Raising and lowering the height of the OH's can bring them in and out of a complementary position, relative to the Kick & Snare, etc. I can position 30 mic's on a kit/room and they all work together...so it can be done. It's really all about training yourself to hear "phase" .

Training exercise#1. Take a sm57 and a 451. (or a 57 and any other small diaphram /pencil style condenser). Put some head phones on. Hold them together so that they face the same way and the capsules are about even. In a normal voice talk into the both of them, alternately muting and adjusting levels until they're of equal loudness. Now flip one out of polarity. Hear the "phase-y ness?" Slide the 451 Along the sm57 until you get the most out of phase sound you can (your voice gets thin and loses volumn). Now if you tape the two mic together at this point; put them both in polarity together you now have a two mic set-up that can be held on one sm57 mic clip and will give you the top two snare mics, of a three mic set-up (two top/one bottom) that is somewhat common in some circles. Mainly you gotten to hear how you CAN hear effect of "phase". If you adjust the balance of your mic's, in you headphones you can extrapolate this principle until you become allergic to phase. All your mics will be in , relative too each other, as much as you want.

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RecorderMan,

In my latest attempt to finally get a decent drum sound...in my dead ass room, I tried your OH set up - and I really like it so far. Since the mics are so close, I think I’m getting better sound into them *before* the room dampening comes into play. Another tip I picked up on the DUC is a SM57 for the room mic, I know it sounds weird, but if you’re in a small room like me, the 57 will give you a more distant sound than a large condenser ...which sounds too close no matter where I put it.

Thanks again for the tips.

:w:

Hey all!!!

Dying to try Recorderman's O/H trick - I like to use the O/H's as the basis for the whole kit sound as well, so this sounds really interesting!!! Thanks Recorderman!!!

Thought I'd also throw my 2 cents worth in here - one of my favorite "O/H" techniques.......actually, you can't really call these overheads 'cos they're not overhead at all.

Try taking 2 large diaphragm condensers and switch them into Omni (Cardioid also works, but you get less room sound). Place them at the drummer's head level slightly behind him and a drum stick's length off each shoulder. The mics should be pointing forward. Experiment by angling the mics slightly down towards the kit and try a touch of compression.

I find this gives a really nice stereo spread, with a good balance between the ambient kit sound and the cymbals. Because of where the mics are, they kind of "hear" the kit the same way the drummer does, so you get the balance and feel between the different parts of the kit that the drummer intended. It also seems to add nice "air" to tom hits.

I've had quite a few drummers ask me to separately mic the ride and H/H when they see the setup (and I'm happy to humour them LOL) but have never ended up using these close mic'd tracks in the end. Usually the drummer's quite surprised at how closely the balance emulates the way they hear the mix in their head!!! ;)

Hope this is useful to someone!!!

Steve Chahley.

P.S. GREAT THREAD!!!!

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This tip works like a treat!!

I was doing a session at the studio where i do some work and thought i would give it a go, given all the positive feedback it has garnered recently. I have never had a hassle getting decent drum ton4es but this was the bomb and so much quicked that dicking around with other mics etc and moving. It would seem that the crux of Recordermans thoery rings true...beign that getting the kick and OH's to work cohesively in that intital phase truly does make miking a kit afun an dcreative experience instead of a chore.

This new method inspired me so much i went back to the mic cabinet and added another pair of everheads. I found that the snare image was smak bang in the centre of the plane and worked exceptionally well. I have been EQing to disk and tape and this has made the initial recording extremely solid and provide and awesome basiss for a great mix. In the past i would have fooled around for hours just to get the drums to sit as they were sitting once i tried recrodermans method.

My main pair of O/H's for RM's experiment were a pair of AKG 414w/ c12 capsule. These provided the centre snare image and kick while the 2nd pair of OH's were Neumann omni Km-83's which were awesome and provided deep and sparkly overtones that was missing from the 414's. THe kick was mic'ed close with an AKG d112 and a Neumann U-47 F.E.T all going through neve 1073's whihc helped a ton!

THREE CHEERS FOR RM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone post a couple of results from this method with a 3 or 4 mic setup!!!

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Thank you all again.
Hey yelhahc, that's a very good and proven approach.

Also. Don't Be afraid to move the Height up or down a bit.

Do any of you out there use top & bottom mics on your toms? I've never been able to get the bottom out of the toms that I like without using a bottom mic, around 10 less in level relative to the top mic amd reverse polarity. Near ambient mics, Low to the floor can add cool notes.

SM57's are excellent,excellent,excellent mics....they cover the mids so well. SoundCity in Van Nuys, CA has a '57 hanging permanatly from there high (I;m guessing 20') ceiling right over where most peolpe put their snare...It rocks.....

Keep using your ears...experiment and develope a unified theory from your experiance that allows you to be differrent and more effective...rules are the fossils of someone else's experiance...definetly a good sign post, but the reason for those rules were an aspect of questions and answers at that time that MAY be irrellavant to your situation at hand.

Hey there. I just recorded the keys, bass and DRUMs for my band. I used RecorderMan's technique for the overheads (used 2 NT5s). I also close mic'd the snare (top SM57 and bottom SM58), a D112 in the kick and an AT4050 on the HiHat. Wow! The drum overheads sound great. Thanks a bunch for the technique, RecorderMan. Much appreciated.

Charlie.

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This is a great thread. Just posting to keep it on the front of the forum. Been copy pasting to word document and making me a little brochure.
Kurt and Recorderman are the ones to learn from here :c:

Yes, Golli. I did the exact same thing. I saw the thread (Somebody on the digi DUC actually referred to it), and started copy/pasting into a word doc. I took it home and used it to mic the drums. I am really pleased with the results.

Charlie.

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Originally posted by golli:
This is a great thread. Just posting to keep it on the front of the forum. Been copy pasting to word document and making me a little brochure.
Kurt and Recorderman are the ones to learn from here :c:

Thanks golli, nice of you to say that. I miss RM and I wish he would show here more. I guess he's busy recording major acts in H-Wood.. Kurt

Originally posted by yelhahc:

Place them at the drummer's head level slightly behind him and a drum stick's length off each shoulder. The mics should be pointing forward. Experiment by angling the mics slightly down towards the kit and try a touch of compression.

Yes...alll these work great.
Also...jsut a pair of 57's are great for this.

Try this above tehcnique after finding a good spot in the room near a wall....have the drums FACE THE WALL....the right spot will give a cool reflection of the ki back at the mic's....have fun

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here is how to deal with phase:
hit the mono button - if you don't hear anything
weird , then you are in phase. to be certain , move
some of the drum faders up and down while listening
in mono - if still no symptoms - forget it and get on with
the more important things like song arrangement ,
tempo and key.

This thread is mint.

wound up using 2 beta 57's overhead since my sm57's were in use. Great results. My drummer thought I was a dumbass as I set it up, but he loved the sound.

My only problem now is working on the kick. I think that I need to work on some eq and compression setting to get the sound I like.

Thanks RecorderMan!

All of the suggestions I've seen here are good ones, however I wouldnt worry about mono compatability at this stage. You have the ability to adjust this during the mix process without a headache. I prefer to mic for the widest stereo image possible and pan in afterwards if required, or add mono fx to blend to center.
The main thing to keep in mind when miking drums is what will be mono. Usually just kick and snare. Phase issues are much more apparent with snare trax because of the frequency range. Always make sure the overheads are the same distance from the snare, kick if possible, but for the kick it is not as critical.

I know this is the thread-that-wouldn't-die, but it's so good. I am a recent initiate to the 'recorderman two stick shuffle' and now I'm a believer. like someone posted, this has done more to improve my drum sounds than any mic, mic pre, or piece of gear I own.

AND restored my faith in proper mic placement being central to a great recording.

:c:

how the hell is this supposed to work? i was working on this technique tonight with my studio partner. we've got a very nice kit, good overheads (sm81)...but the math, or the setup just does not make sense...

we got the 'left' mic 36" directly above the snare facing straight down. then we measured the distance from the capsule to the beater pad (impact point) on the bass drum. i forget the number for that distance...it was 40 something inches....but if you try and triangulate the 'right' mic, it damn near ends up behind the drummer. it just doesn't make sense, or at least the math doesn't seem to work out. for the left mic, the distance between the capsule and the snare and the capsule and the beater pad are proportional. am i just thinking about this too much? it's like you can get one distance for the 'right' mic the same as one on the 'left', but not both unless you want to put the mic behind the drummer...

i was really looking forward to trying this and getting some nice results, but i'm rather deflated right now. :(

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
7. Use amic cable. Measure the distance of the over the snare mic to the center of the kick drum. Check that the "right shoulder" mic is also the same distance.
8. Doulble check the snare distance again.

...

10. one last thing to check. with headphones on, both "OH" mics in your cue mix (only them) .fine tune the placement (i.e. adjust their orientation...usualliy just moving the shoulder one) untill the kick is in the center of your "image"

This is what i don't understand. how is it possible to have the snare/mic distance (hereafter called A1) and the kick/mic distance (B1) the same for both the left and right mics without putting the right mic in some really f'd up place, like behind the drummer? It seems like you can only get one of the distances of the over-the-shoulder mic the same as A1 or B1, but not both. the triangulation just doesn't seem right. and why does #10 say to go ahead and move the shoulder mic around? sorry if that sounds a bit snippy, but i'm a bit deflated i wasn't able to figure this out after hearing so many people say they achieved good results with it.

S#@t, I was gonna try it this saturday in a session. I guess I'll stick to the good old XY. :s:

Recorderman,

If you have an Overhead mic directly above the snare drum, then pan it left, how is the snare going to be in the center of the mix? Truth is, it's not. However, the snare will be very present in the mix, and still probably sounds good (like you desribe). Based on the method that you describe, the snare will be in the middle and on the left side as well (if including a snare mic).

My biggest problem with your setup is that based on my gear, the overheads will clip like there aint no tomorrow. I already have enough problems with overheads clipping (I use a motu 896, with the input knob for the overheads turned almost all the way down). If I used the -10db pads that came with the Oktava MK-012s that I use, it would solve the problem, however when the pads are on, the overheads dont sound nearly as good (particularly the cymbals).

Any suggestions, or can you explain how its physically possible to put an overhead directly above the snare and be able to pan it hard left while still keeping the snare in the middle?

Stevo

nice to see you've joined steve....

it does sound really weird, but from what little i was able to do last night, the snare did sound balanced and the kick sounded a little off to the right. granted, i still don't completely understand how the math regarding the distances is possible, but hopefully someone can explain that.

Hey guys HAVE FAITH! This can be done it takes some experimentation to get this working with different kits, but I can state without hesitation that it kicks ass.

The first mic being about 33" directly above the snare pointing straight down. The second directly over my right shoulder when I play, slightly in front of me. This just requires awareness that it's there and not to strike it heh.

I have a 4.1 arrangement setup, just overheads (C42's), kick (421) and snare (57). Then there's a sub-kick mic for kick subharmonics.

Now here is a short clip (500k) of something I'm working on, recorded with the exact setup above. C42's are running through a DRS-2, and 421/57 through a TG2.

These are raw tracks no mixing other than levels. I've been working with this recorderman setup for overheads for a few months now and really like the way it sounds.

Cheers-

Heinz, what kind of hats are you using? I started playing live before I got hooked on the home recording stuff so I've been using "sound edge" style hats (paiste 2002 sound edge) and the Zyldjian equivalent. They're great for live because if you're not mic'd they cut through the wall of noise. However, for recording, I've found them to be way too hot. Any suggestions?

I've been following this thread because I want to try out RM's overhead method. Thanks for the pic, it's worth the proverbial thousand words. I'm using a matched pair of AKG 451c's for overheads. And, BTW, my kit is set up almost identically to yours especially with respect to the placement of the cymbals.

Also, any drummers out there .... do you switch between nylon and wood tips whenever you go from live to studio? I use nylon for live, I'm wondering if I should be using wood for recording

thanks for the pictures heinz, those help a bit. when you place your second mic, do make sure its snare/kick distances are the exact same at the first mic distances? what distances do you get? when i was doing it, the only way to triangulate these properly was to put the mic almost behind the drummer, and that just doesn't make sense.
in your pictures, it looks like the second mic is straight back from the floor tom. ours was almost straight back from the kick...

oy. i'll work at it a little more today, and maybe take a few pictures of what's going on.

Hi BDS I use 14" A Zildjian New Beats I bought back in like 1978. They aren't quite as cutting as some but mesh pretty well in a recording scenario. One thing is I have to adjust my playing style quite a bit when tracking, I pull back on the hats/cymbals and pump up on the drums. This is much different than my live technique which involves maximum pummeling of all objects in the perimeter.

I like nylon tips, but with most brands the tip goes shooting across the room into a nearby musician after a few cymbal hits. Promark Oak nylons seem the best to me. I use wooden tips when I've broken all my nylons.

Erik I just measured... both overhead mics are 32.5" from the snare impact center, and about 46-ish inches from the kick impact center.

Yes the 2nd mic stand is to my right behind the floor tom (and me), and the boom brings the mic right up next to my cheek and a bit in front of it. I could kiss it without much of a problem, but I digress. The mic is pointing directly at my snare which means it's pointing down and across the kit.

yeah, i could kiss the 81 if i turned to the right...this is such a whack technique!

i'm actually at the studio now. i measured the mic1/snare distance and got 33", and the mic1/kick distance is 47.5". i have some pictures that i'll upload when i get home, but i basically used a piece of twine to get the distances correct without fumbling around with a tape measure. i taped one end to the center of the snare, ran it up to the first mic, marked the distance with a marker, then (while still held to the mic screen) ran it down to the beater pad of the kick and taped it in place there. the mark on the string is the vector (vertex?) of the two lines of distance. holding the string at the mark with a pen (as will be illustrated), i moved it back in such a way that the tension on both sides of the twine were constant. once i got them to a reasonable point, this is where i placed the second mic. i should probably go ahead now and get some sounds and see what happens.....

oy

this feels like a play-by-play commentary.

i ran some sounds (myself playing drums, which i'm horrible at, so i guess the test isn't all that accurate...damn) everything seems to come through clearly when switching between mono and stereo. the bass frequencies don't get lost, and neither does the high end.

the problem now seems to be the image. when in mono, it sounds fine, but when i go to stereo with each mic panned about 80% to its respective side, the snare shift to the left. what happened??? is this simply because the first mic is picking up more of the snare (which it is, in fact)?

[after some thinking...and time]

it was my preamp gain levels. since i don't have a mindless drummer to be my guinnea pig while i turn the knobs, i had to set the gain. so, being the lazy sot that i am, i simply linked the two channels together and when from there. much better!

I am dying to try this method( not on somebody else's time).I have doubts though about the image. I don't think the snare would sit in the middle focused enough. I guess I won't know until I try, or somebody posts results(only drums). :(

Originally posted by -=alk3=-:
Recorderman,

If you have an Overhead mic directly above the snare drum, then pan it left, how is the snare going to be in the center of the mix? Truth is, it's not.

You are forgetting about the second mic, which is panned right. Because this mic is the same distance to the snare as the first one, the end result will contain equal amounts of snare in each channel.

If, for instense, you have just one mic pointing at the snare, panned center, and monitored it through your speakers, it will be the same exact thing in each left and right channel.

Make sense?

Originally posted by Mundox:
I am dying to try this method( not on somebody else's time).I have doubts though about the image. I don't think the snare would sit in the middle focused enough. I guess I won't know until I try, or somebody posts results(only drums). :(

i got it working finally. the image for the kick and the snare is centered, but you'll have to be careful with the levels regarding the snare. the first mic will pick up a lot more of the snare, thus shifting it's perception to the left. the way i set the gain on the mics was to have the drummer (who showed up unexpectedly) hit the snare in quarter notes. from there, i made sure the gain was such that the output of the two overheads were equal. i'm going to start downloading and uploading the pictures i took....hopefully there is something useful on them as my camera sucks. badly.