fito_88, post: 383517 wrote: Hey guys,

I decide to get 2 headphones , 1 for editing/composing and another for mixing and mastering.

so the first 1 for editing should preferably be open/semi-opened back 1 as i want to get a very detailed pin-pointed and wide sounding headphone here , that's not bassy(muddy) or have exaggerated treble , i want it to be well balanced and detailed in the most way and preferably not coloured so it wont lie to me in any range

for that 1 im contemplating between these cans:

1-Sennheiser HD650-600
2-Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro
3-Akg k702-701
4-Akg k240 mkii

the other 1 for mixing (reference) should be closed back for sound isolation and is preferred to be very detailed and not coloured in any-way so that it pin-points the slightest mistakes , and of-course it mustn't leak any sound

my choices so far for that can are:

1-Shure SRH940
2-Shure SRH840
3-Sony 7509HD
4-ATH-M50/s
5-AKG K271MKII

i have the RME HDSPe AIO interface that i think she be ok for firing up any of these cans without any external amp(or may be not im just assuming), and im willing to pay more for the editing/composing can to be honest as this is my field xD

i have a $800-1k budget for these headphones

so what do u guys think? any recommendations would be much much appreciated, even if any1 knows a can out of these lists above and they can perform better plz share your thoughts smoke

Back for more fun and recommendations eh?
I vote for the ATH-M50's and the Sony 7509HD because that's what I have!
They each sound completely different though.
But you get used to them.
I have to say I like the ATH-M50's because they are a little fatter in the low end, but that also makes them a bit hyped and thick down there.
The Sony's are probably more accurate and balanced but they can get awfully cripsy up in the top end.
Haven't used any of the others but I'm pretty sure you'll get a vote here for every model.
Everyone will also tell you to spend the money on monitors and room treatment for doing any editing/mixing or mastering....
Headphones just don't give you accurate translation to real world playback.
Only accurate monitors in an accurate room will do that!
I doubt there are any mastering engineers who do their job using headphones.

djmukilteo, post: 383525 wrote: Back for more fun and recommendations eh?
I vote for the ATH-M50's and the Sony 7509HD because that's what I have!
They each sound completely different though.
But you get used to them.
I have to say I like the ATH-M50's because they are a little fatter in the low end, but that also makes them a bit hyped and thick down there.
The Sony's are probably more accurate and balanced but they can get awfully cripsy up in the top end.
Haven't used any of the others but I'm pretty sure you'll get a vote here for every model.
Everyone will also tell you to spend the money on monitors and room treatment for doing any editing/mixing or mastering....
Headphones just don't give you accurate translation to real world playback.
Only accurate monitors in an accurate room will do that!
I doubt there are any mastering engineers who do their job using headphones.

love both ur choices :) do u reckon an amp is needed ? and could u recommend 1 ? but do amp colour the sounds?

also do u remember when u told me to invest in a good DAC before for a better sound outputs? iv got 2 extremely amateur questions that ur gona hate me (even more than u do) more :D

1- would this DAC improve the quality of my recordings themselves or just the sound im listening while im recording?
2-do they affect latency at all?

and ur beloved question ,, would u recommend some ? :P

I can't comment on the other ones, but due to a suggestion on this forum I went with the Beyer DT990, the totally open back version. I bought them more for entertainment, but as far as comfort goes, they are incredible. I actually don't even want to take them off! The velour pads are awesome, but I could see them getting a little hot if you sweat a lot or are in a hot room.

fito_88, post: 383526 wrote: love both ur choices :) do u reckon an amp is needed ? and could u recommend 1 ? but do amp colour the sounds?

also do u remember when u told me to invest in a good DAC before for a better sound outputs? iv got 2 extremely amateur questions that ur gona hate me (even more than u do) more :D

1- would this DAC improve the quality of my recordings themselves or just the sound im listening while im recording?
2-do they affect latency at all?

and ur beloved question ,, would u recommend some ? :P

No haters here....
You don't need an amp if you use the headphone outs of whatever D/A or A/D/A you get.
Unless there's more than just you. Doesn't sound like your tracking a band or need multiple headphones for tracking, because your doing MIDI ITB....sounds like it's just you...right?

Going back to your previous composition/songwriting thing....if your not tracking or using any actual analog or acoustical instruments and your doing everything with VSTi's in software with MIDI then spending money on expensive multi-channel analog to digital interfaces isn't what you need.
All of your "sound quality" comes from your software which is already digital in the computer!
What you want is something that takes the digital to analog and does a really good job at that.
Latency isn't much of an issue there and whatever few milliseconds there is won't affect or be perceptable. I think the number is over 15ms for a human to actually perceive latency and find it a problem.
So really unless you get different or better VST instrument sounds, that's your sound...it is what it is.
Nothing you buy will improve what it sounds like.
Now if you take a high quality D/A and then bounce that analog output back into your DAW through a A/D again or use an analog mixing console to mix your ITB tracks....you might get a better "sound".
If that makes sense to you....
Anyway, what's your budget for D/A's?....There are lots of choices, SPL Phonitor is the best IMHO, Burl B2, Lavry DA-11, Benchmark DAC1. All great!
If you have to get an A/D/A maybe look at just 2 good channels of A/D for a mic or guitar in the future and then buy the best your budget allows......that's what I would do....then start trying out some different VSTi's or maybe get an actual synth and record analog outs into a couple of channels of A/D.
Hope that answers some of your questions and helps you out!

I think you're missing something important in the equation here? For mastering purposes, you want SPEAKERS not headphones. I can guarantee that your work will be bamboozled from just trying to work with headphones. Your thought process needs modifications.

As for headphones, and he closed back headphones are good for when tracking/recording. Open back headphones or " open-air " are much better for monitoring purposes but do not replace speakers. Headphones will give you false information when trying to mix or master anything. You will hear things through headphones you won't hear through speakers. You'll hear things through speakers that will sound different on headphones. Monitoring with headphones and mixing will create mixes that sound like crap on speakers. Once you get completely familiar in intimate with fewer control room speakers, you can start comparing those to what you hear in headphones. Only then, will you be able to make some educated decisions when utilizing headphones alone. And even then, results can be less than gratifying when played back through speakers. Just because you are in the "down under" doesn't mean you're recordings should be also or so to speak without speakers.

Get up with it, down under.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Yeah, he knows all that Remy but it doesn't matter...he needs to master right now!

theDAWstudio, post: 383546 wrote: Liked mentioned before, you are back for more. First I am perplexed by your delineation of the purposes of having two headphones and which ones work best. In my experience I have seen one main reason for having two types of headphones and which types are better for each.

One pair for tracking - closed back for avoiding bleed. The other for editing, mixing, mastering or everything else - opened back for a more natural and realistic sound and less pressure and fatigue on your ear.

I have heard of some people getting a wireless pair to avoid stepping on the cable, but that is a whole other topic.

Here’s a look at your list of phones and my thoughts.

1-Sennheiser HD650-600 (Excellent open-back choice for $450 range)
2-Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro (These sound awesome, love the fuzzy cuffs, and are a great compromise if you decide to get just one pair for $300) (the 770s for $200 are a great closed back for tracking)
3-Akg k702-701 (kind of cheap for an open back)
4-Akg k240 mkii (OK, but famous for impedance making them able to run a whole bunch off a single power amp. Sound isn’t anything amazing, but good nonetheless)
1-Shure SRH940 (Good phones)
2-Shure SRH840 (7506s are better)
3-Sony 7509HD (discontinued)
4-ATH-M50/s (7506s are better)
5-AKG K271MKII (7506s are better)

As you can see I am partial to the Sony 7506s for $100 for tracking because they are rock solid and standard in studios all over. They are robust, sound great for $100 and easy to afford 4 or more identical pairs if you are recording a band.

I also really like the Beyerdynamic 770 Pros for $200 better than any of the other $200 options. They are just like the Sonys but sound better and a little less robust, but I love the fuzzy cuffs!)

If you look at the two headphone idea the way I am selling it, you can see that you don’t really need to spend much more than $200 for the closed back/tracking option since they will never be used for critical mixing, but need to sound decent. The two above options do that. That leaves you more money to invest in the detailed open-backs for mixing/mastering. The Sennheiser HD650s look like the best option that you listed here, but I can’t believe that you didn’t mention any Grados (the ultimate manufacturer of reference quality headphones and the only ones that I’ve professional engineer say they would be comfortable mixing on). So here are my two suggestions:

Option 1:
Grado RS1 $695 for Composing/Editing/Mixing/Mastering
Sony 7506 $100 for Tracking

Option 2:
Sennheiser HD650 $450 for Composing/Editing/Mixing/Mastering
Beyerdynamic 770 Pro $200 for Tracking

Option 3:
If you want only one pair I would suggest the Beyerdynamic 880s for $300 with the best of both worlds.

All three options are under budget unlike the last suggestion I made for you on the other thread.

As for a headphone amp, you will definitely need one. The line outputs of the RME HDSPe AIO won’t work well. I would suggest Grace, but that would blow your budget. The line of thought on headphone amps follows the same of mic preamps (they’re doing the same thing basically…amplifying). Better amplification provides cleaner more detailed sound and a good headphone (mic) can’t make up for mediocre amplification. There are tons of options, but I would start by going with whatever you are using to control the level of your speakers. Your interface, Mackie Big Knob, Presonus, etc.

Good Luck

i cant state how much i am THANKFUL for this comment !!!!!!!
see guys these r the kinda comments that r really really HELPFUL !!!!! not like the other cocky with big bucks dudes that r trying to put u down in anyway they can !!!!!!!!

thank u again for such an amazing detalied comment.

i see that ur a big fan of the sony 7506s :) if though they r a bit cheaper an older than other cans but thats very interesting for as its better to pay more on the open cans cuz id use them 80% more than the closed back ones so +1 for that mate :)

all ur three options r admirable and im leaning to the second one (650 + 7506) sounds really good for me and ill see if i can find these second as i prefer not to lose much value when i decide to upgrade from them to a higher ones later

for the amp actualy grace would make me declare bankrupcy lol and the hdspe is an internal interface , what should i do to fix this issue then ? should i get another interface from these ones u listed and connect it to it xD?

sarNz, post: 383550 wrote: I can't comment on the other ones, but due to a suggestion on this forum I went with the Beyer DT990, the totally open back version. I bought them more for entertainment, but as far as comfort goes, they are incredible. I actually don't even want to take them off! The velour pads are awesome, but I could see them getting a little hot if you sweat a lot or are in a hot room.

i heard the beyers make the most comfy cans out there :)

djmukilteo, post: 383557 wrote: No haters here....
You don't need an amp if you use the headphone outs of whatever D/A or A/D/A you get.
Unless there's more than just you. Doesn't sound like your tracking a band or need multiple headphones for tracking, because your doing MIDI ITB....sounds like it's just you...right?

Going back to your previous composition/songwriting thing....if your not tracking or using any actual analog or acoustical instruments and your doing everything with VSTi's in software with MIDI then spending money on expensive multi-channel analog to digital interfaces isn't what you need.
All of your "sound quality" comes from your software which is already digital in the computer!
What you want is something that takes the digital to analog and does a really good job at that.
Latency isn't much of an issue there and whatever few milliseconds there is won't affect or be perceptable. I think the number is over 15ms for a human to actually perceive latency and find it a problem.
So really unless you get different or better VST instrument sounds, that's your sound...it is what it is.
Nothing you buy will improve what it sounds like.
Now if you take a high quality D/A and then bounce that analog output back into your DAW through a A/D again or use an analog mixing console to mix your ITB tracks....you might get a better "sound".
If that makes sense to you....
Anyway, what's your budget for D/A's?....There are lots of choices, SPL Phonitor is the best IMHO, Burl B2, Lavry DA-11, Benchmark DAC1. All great!
If you have to get an A/D/A maybe look at just 2 good channels of A/D for a mic or guitar in the future and then buy the best your budget allows......that's what I would do....then start trying out some different VSTi's or maybe get an actual synth and record analog outs into a couple of channels of A/D.
Hope that answers some of your questions and helps you out!

thanks for ur reply mate , but some points that ur stating are a lil hard for me to understand
well first of all yes iam doing the composing thing 100% on midi , and still i bought a condenser mic and would like to record vocals too weather u like or not :P hahah jks
anyway thats why im looking for a tracking cans in the first place

i understand for the million times that with VSTs the its all itb work and sound quality would 100% depend on the vsts themselves , im talking about the sound thats coming out the daw in overall so the D/A converters part plays the role here , my question was if i get a decent converter would it just improve the sound quality of the finished project even if its played in any other pc that doesnt have this converter , or would it just improve the sound for me when i use this converter only (as in only a luxury for me) ?

my budget for a D/A is 1k but it depends on the previous question if it'd only improve the final sound for me only then theres no need for it

RemyRAD, post: 383584 wrote: I think you're missing something important in the equation here? For mastering purposes, you want SPEAKERS not headphones. I can guarantee that your work will be bamboozled from just trying to work with headphones. Your thought process needs modifications.

As for headphones, and he closed back headphones are good for when tracking/recording. Open back headphones or " open-air " are much better for monitoring purposes but do not replace speakers. Headphones will give you false information when trying to mix or master anything. You will hear things through headphones you won't hear through speakers. You'll hear things through speakers that will sound different on headphones. Monitoring with headphones and mixing will create mixes that sound like crap on speakers. Once you get completely familiar in intimate with fewer control room speakers, you can start comparing those to what you hear in headphones. Only then, will you be able to make some educated decisions when utilizing headphones alone. And even then, results can be less than gratifying when played back through speakers. Just because you are in the "down under" doesn't mean you're recordings should be also or so to speak without speakers.

Get up with it, down under.
Mx. Remy Ann David

i know about the speakers , and i said before that i wont get a speaker unless i can afford acousticaly treating my room the best that it can be treated cuz im not paying 2k for speakers that will only 10% of its performance(if im lucky) due to a shitty room.

so ill just try to work my way with cans till i can treat my room.

thanks

djmukilteo, post: 383586 wrote: Yeah, he knows all that Remy but it doesn't matter...he needs to master right now!

have i got any other options ?

fito_88, post: 383592 wrote: thanks for ur reply mate , but some points that ur stating are a lil hard for me to understand
well first of all yes iam doing the composing thing 100% on midi , and still i bought a condenser mic and would like to record vocals too weather u like or not :P hahah jks
anyway thats why im looking for a tracking cans in the first place

i understand for the million times that with VSTs the its all itb work and sound quality would 100% depend on the vsts themselves , im talking about the sound thats coming out the daw in overall so the D/A converters part plays the role here , my question was if i get a decent converter would it just improve the sound quality of the finished project even if its played in any other pc that doesnt have this converter , or would it just improve the sound for me when i use this converter only (as in only a luxury for me) ?

my budget for a D/A is 1k but it depends on the previous question if it'd only improve the final sound for me only then theres no need for it

OK microphone for vocal so then your back to at least a 2 channel A/D/A with MIDI and headphone output.
I've forgotten what you have now but I still go with anything RME, but that's just my opinion. They make solid reliable stuff with good hardware drivers with everything you need and I'm pretty sure it will sound good to you with headphones compared to what you've been using.
If someone listens to your song on a different system though all bets are off. It will only sound the exact same way if they have the same headphones and equipment. You probably can get close...just listen to your stuff on lots of different speakers and see how it sounds and then adjust if you think it needs adjusting.
Again....that's why professionals who make records for a living use accurately flat monitors and a treated control room to mix and master the sound so it "translates" (plays back) the same way you mixed it on anyone's system or radio. Of course if someone listens to your song on a crappy set of computer speakers or ipod earbuds then they still won't hear it the way you heard it when you made it anyway...
And I still don't think anyone can tell for sure what device will sound better to You...only You can determine that!
What sounds good to me might sound like crap to you and vice versa....so just keep that in mind and make some music...
Do you like vanilla?....I like chocolate...

fito_88, post: 383590 wrote: i cant state how much i am THANKFUL for this comment !!!!!!!
see guys these r the kinda comments that r really really HELPFUL !!!!! not like the other cocky with big bucks dudes that r trying to put u down in anyway they can !!!!!!!!

thank u again for such an amazing detalied comment.

i see that ur a big fan of the sony 7506s :) if though they r a bit cheaper an older than other cans but thats very interesting for as its better to pay more on the open cans cuz id use them 80% more than the closed back ones so +1 for that mate :)

all ur three options r admirable and im leaning to the second one (650 + 7506) sounds really good for me and ill see if i can find these second as i prefer not to lose much value when i decide to upgrade from them to a higher ones later

for the amp actualy grace would make me declare bankrupcy lol and the hdspe is an internal interface , what should i do to fix this issue then ? should i get another interface from these ones u listed and connect it to it xD?

Thanks for the props on my suggestions. Here are a couple of potential solutions for your missing headphone amplification.

Kush Audio Function Junction $499 (few controls but all about sound)
Radial MC3 $299 (fewer controls and all about sound)
Mackie Big Knob $299 (lots of controls and OK on sound)

Straight up headphone amp
Presonus HP4 $129
Samson C-Que 8
Behringer Powerplay Pro HA4700 $119 (this is actually the only Behringer product that I would consider buying. Lots of function and decent sound but maybe overkill for your setup.)

After looking through all this, I think that the Radial is the best sound for the buck, but any will work so let your budget drive you.

Those are Beyer's are rather comfortable especially since they are also utilized as intercom headphones for camera guys in front of loud rock 'n roll bands. And they have to wear those for hours on end.

For critical listening I personally recommend the Sennheiser open-air headphones. I personally utilize an older pair of HD 545's along with the closed back HD 280's. But you don't need to spend a huge sum of money for a decent small pair of near field control room monitors by companies like Tannoy, JBL, KRK, Mackie, Yamaha. Many of those can be had for the same cost as a good pair of open-air Sennheiser headphones alone.

As mentioned, having a superior digital to analog converter will not have any bearing on improving your sound. It will improve your monitoring and that's about it. For real sound improvement you need a superior analog to digital converter or some audio interface with DC converters already built-in for your computer. Anything you purchase for $500 US or less, will all be pretty much the same. Only after you move up to a more esoteric type that cost hundreds more will you glean an improvement in your actual recordings that have been directed through this device at its input.

How about reading a few books on this subject? Like " Home Recordings for Dummies "?
Mx. Remy Ann David

djmukilteo, post: 383597 wrote: OK microphone for vocal so then your back to at least a 2 channel A/D/A with MIDI and headphone output.
I've forgotten what you have now but I still go with anything RME, but that's just my opinion. They make solid reliable stuff with good hardware drivers with everything you need and I'm pretty sure it will sound good to you with headphones compared to what you've been using.
If someone listens to your song on a different system though all bets are off. It will only sound the exact same way if they have the same headphones and equipment. You probably can get close...just listen to your stuff on lots of different speakers and see how it sounds and then adjust if you think it needs adjusting.
Again....that's why professionals who make records for a living use accurately flat monitors and a treated control room to mix and master the sound so it "translates" (plays back) the same way you mixed it on anyone's system or radio. Of course if someone listens to your song on a crappy set of computer speakers or ipod earbuds then they still won't hear it the way you heard it when you made it anyway...
And I still don't think anyone can tell for sure what device will sound better to You...only You can determine that!
What sounds good to me might sound like crap to you and vice versa....so just keep that in mind and make some music...
Do you like vanilla?....I like chocolate...

hahaha ur just the best ! :D thanks for ur comment buddy , im learning alot from u !

im with u that rme's r the best and so far i chose the rme hdspe aio (for it has the lowest latencies so far from tests iv seen), but ! this is a pcie at the end and its breakout cable doesnt support phantom power for my condenser and thats an issue ! so id need to get external preamps(which is something is was going to do anyway sooner or later) , so i need to know how many pres can be plugged to the interface , and since the headphones im gomna get (probs sen hd650 or ultrasone 750 pro) need amps , so theres another unit to be plugged to the interface i guess. btw theres a question iv been wanting to ask , how would i plug 2 headphones in the same time ??!

so for the A/D/A apparently they will sound good to me only then theres no need for them (now) true?
better for me to just get good preamps for the mic , and good amp for the cans and thats it .. true? or am i missing something ( as usual LOL )

theDAWstudio, post: 383598 wrote: Thanks for the props on my suggestions. Here are a couple of potential solutions for your missing headphone amplification.

Kush Audio Function Junction $499 (few controls but all about sound)
Radial MC3 $299 (fewer controls and all about sound)
Mackie Big Knob $299 (lots of controls and OK on sound)

Straight up headphone amp
Presonus HP4 $129
Samson C-Que 8
Behringer Powerplay Pro HA4700 $119 (this is actually the only Behringer product that I would consider buying. Lots of function and decent sound but maybe overkill for your setup.)

After looking through all this, I think that the Radial is the best sound for the buck, but any will work so let your budget drive you.

u blow my mind with every comment from u ! so much helpful mate thank u so much!

u just gave me a list of good price amps(for my budget) so id just go test them and my ears will decide which 1 of them is my vanilla ! lol (hate chocolate)

just 1 question , u named the second list as "straight up headphone amp" .. so what was the list above ? and whats the difference ? :)

btw i cant find Radial MC3 either on ebay or amazon , where did u get that price from mate ?

RemyRAD, post: 383601 wrote: Those are Beyer's are rather comfortable especially since they are also utilized as intercom headphones for camera guys in front of loud rock 'n roll bands. And they have to wear those for hours on end.

For critical listening I personally recommend the Sennheiser open-air headphones. I personally utilize an older pair of HD 545's along with the closed back HD 280's. But you don't need to spend a huge sum of money for a decent small pair of near field control room monitors by companies like Tannoy, JBL, KRK, Mackie, Yamaha. Many of those can be had for the same cost as a good pair of open-air Sennheiser headphones alone.

As mentioned, having a superior digital to analog converter will not have any bearing on improving your sound. It will improve your monitoring and that's about it. For real sound improvement you need a superior analog to digital converter or some audio interface with DC converters already built-in for your computer. Anything you purchase for $500 US or less, will all be pretty much the same. Only after you move up to a more esoteric type that cost hundreds more will you glean an improvement in your actual recordings that have been directed through this device at its input.

How about reading a few books on this subject? Like " Home Recordings for Dummies "?
Mx. Remy Ann David

thats actually a good point about the beyers that i wouldnt find it any where ! thnx for enlighting it

im leaning to the sen hd650s too with the sony 7506s or the ath-m50s with it for tracking.

i gues im gona need a high end AD/DA converters if i ever want my analog recordings (vocal) sound decent at all

do u think theres preamps out there that has great AD/DA converters and the pres themselves r quality ?or do i have to get a unit for converters and another for amps? cuz im not sure if the rme hdspe aio can handle all these inputs (with a headphones' amp too)

i made a list of the monitors i can actualy afford for now and they r
1-Adams a5xwith mayb going up to a7x
2-Dyn-audio bm5mkii
3-Genelecs 8030A

i think these would be in the same class as each other with the focal twins above them..what do u think of them?

actually iv ordered that book and another one for mastering from amazon and im waiting for them both :)

fito_88, post: 383612 wrote: hahaha ur just the best ! :D thanks for ur comment buddy , im learning alot from u !

im with u that rme's r the best and so far i chose the rme hdspe aio (for it has the lowest latencies so far from tests iv seen), but ! this is a pcie at the end and its breakout cable doesnt support phantom power for my condenser and thats an issue ! so id need to get external preamps(which is something is was going to do anyway sooner or later) , so i need to know how many pres can be plugged to the interface , and since the headphones im gomna get (probs sen hd650 or ultrasone 750 pro) need amps , so theres another unit to be plugged to the interface i guess. btw theres a question iv been wanting to ask , how would i plug 2 headphones in the same time ??!

so for the A/D/A apparently they will sound good to me only then theres no need for them (now) true?
better for me to just get good preamps for the mic , and good amp for the cans and thats it .. true? or am i missing something ( as usual LOL )

The RME HDSPe AIO is a very nice PCIe card!
It has enough analog inputs for 2 mics or two instruments and if you get a preamp that will come with phantom power.
Don't forget to buy the optional "balanced" breakout cable for that card. It comes with two balanced in and two balanced outs, headphone out and MIDI.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME BO9632XLRMKH | Sweetwater.com[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME BO9632XLRMKH | Sweetwater.com[/]

You'll want everything balanced in and out instead of RCA unbalanced which is what it comes with standard.
If you want to use two headphones at the same time just get a small headphone amp for two phones and run the headphone out of the RME into that.
I suppose you'll want preamp suggestions now huh!
Great River you can't go wrong or Grace are good, but everybody has a different opinion on preamps so I'm sure you'll find that out....
Good luck!

djmukilteo, post: 383617 wrote: The RME HDSPe AIO is a very nice PCIe card!
It has enough analog inputs for 2 mics or two instruments and if you get a preamp that will come with phantom power.
Don't forget to buy the optional "balanced" breakout cable for that card. It comes with two balanced in and two balanced outs, headphone out and MIDI.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME BO9632XLRMKH | Sweetwater.com[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME BO9632XLRMKH | Sweetwater.com[/]

You'll want everything balanced in and out instead of RCA unbalanced which is what it comes with standard.
If you want to use two headphones at the same time just get a small headphone amp for two phones and run the headphone out of the RME into that.
I suppose you'll want preamp suggestions now huh!
Great River you can't go wrong or Grace are good, but everybody has a different opinion on preamps so I'm sure you'll find that out....
Good luck!

just wow ! thanks for the bo cable notice !! i noticed they only offer unbalanced i/o in the specs which was really weird but didnt know i have to buy the balanced bo cable separately ! :S thanks man

about the pres u mentioned , well according to their price they must really deliver super sound then :D

uv helped me enough and even more than enough man , thanks for ur patience .. cheers

Mic pres are all over the place....big bucks to little bucks, tubes, solid state on and on. The less expensive separate pres are really the same as what you find on most of the audio interface boxes. Like the RME FF boxes which all have phantom power. This is why most people buy those instead of the PCI card. Using Firewire instead of a PCI does put less load on your computer, but you said you liked that.
I think the FF800 pres are fine for me. I do music with synths and VSTi's in Cubase like you so I'm not doing much vocal stuff. I'm not a vocalist anyway. I've had my FF800 for over three years now which is a Firewire bus and I use a Fantom X7 and record MIDI and audio out of that all the time. It's outlasted 1 computer so far and it's never missed a beat. I had other cards and interfaces and they were all junk and sounded pretty average. The MIDI for me doesn't have noticeable latency through the FF800, very smooth and reliable. I also have a Novation Nocturn that uses USB and it does have annoying latency. I think USB is crap for MIDI personally!
What brand/model condenser mics are you going to use?....that can make a difference of what pre to get.
Oh...and don't get too wigged out over Remy, that's just her style....

djmukilteo, post: 383630 wrote: Mic pres are all over the place....big bucks to little bucks, tubes, solid state on and on. The less expensive separate pres are really the same as what you find on most of the audio interface boxes. Like the RME FF boxes which all have phantom power. This is why most people buy those instead of the PCI card. Using Firewire instead of a PCI does put less load on your computer, but you said you liked that.
I think the FF800 pres are fine for me. I do music with synths and VSTi's in Cubase like you so I'm not doing much vocal stuff. I'm not a vocalist anyway. I've had my FF800 for over three years now which is a Firewire bus and I use a Fantom X7 and record MIDI and audio out of that all the time. It's outlasted 1 computer so far and it's never missed a beat. I had other cards and interfaces and they were all junk and sounded pretty average. The MIDI for me doesn't have noticeable latency through the FF800, very smooth and reliable. I also have a Novation Nocturn that uses USB and it does have annoying latency. I think USB is crap for MIDI personally!
What brand/model condenser mics are you going to use?....that can make a difference of what pre to get.
Oh...and don't get too wigged out over Remy, that's just her style....

thanks for ur comment buddy ! i just love talking about gear with u :) and no hard feelings about ms remy

u just made a very very good points over there ! i didnt know that u use VSTs alot u should have told me that before.that is why i am going for the AIO pcie which seems to me the safest bet for midi latency so far, but ! if this card has so many other draw-backs then id rather give up 2-3ms latency and go for the ff400 (i myself dont need these too many i/o in the ff800) . latencies in the ff400 and the babyface r said to be pretty acceptable , although not as low as the AIO cuz apparently nothing beats the Pcie cards in latency.

and u mentioned a great point over there that i actually never thought about ! : ""The less expensive separate pres are really the same as what you find on most of the audio interface boxes. Like the RME FF boxes which all have phantom power. This is why most people buy those instead of the PCI card. Using Firewire instead of a PCI does put less load on your computer, but you said you liked that.""

actually i was thinking of adding a TC-Helicon VoiceWorks Plus or may be FMR RNP pres to the AIO later on , but they r pretty cheap though (each for $500) , so do you think their quality would be the same as the pres in a ff400? cuz if its that way id be paying double price for just 2-3ms lower latency ! :D so the question is , the combination between the HDSPE AIO + external pres in the class of the TC-Helicon is more worthy or a single ff400 is better? or do i need to bang my wallet for exprensive pres like grados to notice better quality pres than the ff400? ( another question , isnt the ff400 the same unit/drivers as the ff800 but the 800 has loads more i/o ? or is there any other difference?

actually for mics im thinking of MXL V67G/Samson C03 or studio project B1 (they r all low end mics ok ! lol) just to start playing/learning with as a start , and may be ill get a dynamic shure sm7b cuz i hear amazing stories about it so i think it'd be a safe bet too.and im getting a novation sl 61 mkii cuz i cant find any better midi controller in the market than this.

See that's why you have to define exactly what's most important to you.
There's a million ways to go!
You can always add more stuff as you go along.
Looking at specs and reviews is so important.
It's like the SM7B...there are all sorts of gear like that...like the FF400/800 they are tried and true and you can rely on them for many years of use. Yes the 400 has 2 mic pres the 800 has 4. And there's nothing bad about them at all....a lot of this preamp game is filled with hype.
I think you have your mind set on the PCIe card really because you want really good MIDI, the 2 analog input channels and the 2 analog output channels are there for powered monitors and it gives you everything you need for future gear but the MIDI is your main concern.
Why don't you get that.....get it all hooked up....plug a set of phones in make some music and see what you think about the sound quality and MIDI latency! Get that all sorted out first. Make sure your computer can handle anything you throw at it and then go from there.
Save the rest of your money for later...whatever the case may be for $800 you have a system that shouldn't stop you from doing your music.

djmukilteo, post: 383647 wrote: See that's why you have to define exactly what's most important to you.
There's a million ways to go!
You can always add more stuff as you go along.
Looking at specs and reviews is so important.
It's like the SM7B...there are all sorts of gear like that...like the FF400/800 they are tried and true and you can rely on them for many years of use. Yes the 400 has 2 mic pres the 800 has 4. And there's nothing bad about them at all....a lot of this preamp game is filled with hype.
I think you have your mind set on the PCIe card really because you want really good MIDI, the 2 analog input channels and the 2 analog output channels are there for powered monitors and it gives you everything you need for future gear but the MIDI is your main concern.
Why don't you get that.....get it all hooked up....plug a set of phones in make some music and see what you think about the sound quality and MIDI latency! Get that all sorted out first. Make sure your computer can handle anything you throw at it and then go from there.
Save the rest of your money for later...whatever the case may be for $800 you have a system that shouldn't stop you from doing your music.

great point , imna pour the cash gradually , first imna start with the interface, phones then a set of monitors and room treatment ,then add the mic+pres in the future. but the important thing is i dont want to buy something now that wont be able to handle my future upgrades or that would make me pay twice as more needed and tell myself , oh if only i bought this and that it'd be more efficient for me.

The only reason why I would discourage you from purchasing the SHURE SM 7B, is simply because it is virtually identical to the Beta 58. The only real difference is the shape & a pair of frequency response switches and the ability to affix it to a microphone stand without a clip. A 57/58 of any variety, requires a clip to a fix it to the microphone stand. And you spend an extra $150 for the enlarged body and the extra couple of switches. The variable frequency response can be accomplished simply with software. The only reason people hear a difference between the Beta 58 & 7B is because of the actual placement of where the diaphragm is mounted in the 7 tube length. When you realize it is more than halfway down the tube and you lineup both diaphragms of the Beta 58 with the diaphragm of the 7B, with the 7B low-frequency rolloff switch set to flat and the presence switch set to presence rise, it's the same as a Beta 58. So when you have the 7B mounted to a a spring-loaded, DJ boom arm, it ain't going to fall off the arm. If you want a Beta 58 that sounds like a 7B, just stick on an extra foam pop filter and you've saved yourself $150 +. Then you should also work that microphone extra 1 inch further away from the second foam pop filter and voilà.

When you start spending $500 for a preamp, you will likely be getting a preamp with a quality input transformer & quality output transformer. The transformer adds its own special sonic characteristics along with the discrete transistor operational amplifiers. These don't sound like the $50 types at all. As right they shouldn't since they are built for quality and not economy. Those will sound better even when run into those $50 front end preamps on most computer audio interfaces, which then become nothing more than relatively neutral sounding line level inputs. It's a whole different world of sound with those better preamps. And those better preamps will not cause any additional latency. But if you want faster MIDI, then a dedicated PCI-based MIDI interface may be a better option when dealing with MIDI. While your your microphone inputs will do well with a zero latency, provided you have a zero latency USB 1.1/2.0 USB audio device that features direct pass through monitoring and low latency.

I also want to apologize by the somewhat inappropriate ways I sometimes respond to posts from folks whose only experience is that which comes from reading specifications of marketing hype from equipment manufacturers. Specifications should be a guide and not gospel because of the marketing hype involved. Any Transformer less preamp will have better specifications than an " old-school " designed preamp. Unfortunately, they generally DON'T sound better. That is unless you believe that accurate square wave reproduction equates to better sounding audio. I don't buy into that. I mean just look at all of the people here when they tell you they want that classic sound of something and can't get it on their equipment. Part of the reason for that is that the equipment is built for practical economical economy based mindsets and the marketing department still needs to tell you it's a good decision based upon that. Well it ain't really true. It might be cleaner. It might be more transparent. It might be more neutral. And it will likely be more lackluster, while being technically superior. So will you feel better if you have better specifications or would you feel better if you had better sound? That's the bottom line and not the dollars.

I like the sound that created rock 'n roll hits.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Speaking of Rock N Roll hit makers
Have you checked out Neil Youngs new music video yet!?
It's great!

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.neilyoun…"]Neil Young[/]="http://www.neilyoun…"]Neil Young[/]

RemyRAD, post: 383712 wrote: The only reason why I would discourage you from purchasing the SHURE SM 7B, is simply because it is virtually identical to the Beta 58. The only real difference is the shape & a pair of frequency response switches and the ability to affix it to a microphone stand without a clip. A 57/58 of any variety, requires a clip to a fix it to the microphone stand. And you spend an extra $150 for the enlarged body and the extra couple of switches. The variable frequency response can be accomplished simply with software. The only reason people hear a difference between the Beta 58 & 7B is because of the actual placement of where the diaphragm is mounted in the 7 tube length. When you realize it is more than halfway down the tube and you lineup both diaphragms of the Beta 58 with the diaphragm of the 7B, with the 7B low-frequency rolloff switch set to flat and the presence switch set to presence rise, it's the same as a Beta 58. So when you have the 7B mounted to a a spring-loaded, DJ boom arm, it ain't going to fall off the arm. If you want a Beta 58 that sounds like a 7B, just stick on an extra foam pop filter and you've saved yourself $150 +. Then you should also work that microphone extra 1 inch further away from the second foam pop filter and voilà.

When you start spending $500 for a preamp, you will likely be getting a preamp with a quality input transformer & quality output transformer. The transformer adds its own special sonic characteristics along with the discrete transistor operational amplifiers. These don't sound like the $50 types at all. As right they shouldn't since they are built for quality and not economy. Those will sound better even when run into those $50 front end preamps on most computer audio interfaces, which then become nothing more than relatively neutral sounding line level inputs. It's a whole different world of sound with those better preamps. And those better preamps will not cause any additional latency. But if you want faster MIDI, then a dedicated PCI-based MIDI interface may be a better option when dealing with MIDI. While your your microphone inputs will do well with a zero latency, provided you have a zero latency USB 1.1/2.0 USB audio device that features direct pass through monitoring and low latency.

I also want to apologize by the somewhat inappropriate ways I sometimes respond to posts from folks whose only experience is that which comes from reading specifications of marketing hype from equipment manufacturers. Specifications should be a guide and not gospel because of the marketing hype involved. Any Transformer less preamp will have better specifications than an " old-school " designed preamp. Unfortunately, they generally DON'T sound better. That is unless you believe that accurate square wave reproduction equates to better sounding audio. I don't buy into that. I mean just look at all of the people here when they tell you they want that classic sound of something and can't get it on their equipment. Part of the reason for that is that the equipment is built for practical economical economy based mindsets and the marketing department still needs to tell you it's a good decision based upon that. Well it ain't really true. It might be cleaner. It might be more transparent. It might be more neutral. And it will likely be more lackluster, while being technically superior. So will you feel better if you have better specifications or would you feel better if you had better sound? That's the bottom line and not the dollars.

I like the sound that created rock 'n roll hits.
Mx. Remy Ann David

a really interesting point about the shure sm7b that comes from a pro :) and for the midi latency i guess a dedicated pci/e card would be my safest bet . so far im going for the hdspe aio , hopefully i wont come across any issues with it like tha infamous hissing noise from the hp output.

and no hard feelings about what happened before i understand ur concerns and that u'v came across so many newbies like me, its just u could've expressed ur feelings in a better way before but dont worry its all good :) im trying to get my way into this field and i read alot in it , no less than 15 hours a day i read about it just to educate myself better and to know how to get the best out of any crappy equipment u can put ur hands on , i believe its all always that case , a high-end gear in the hand of a newbie will get u a crappy results and vice-versa, thats why i prefer to study and do my home work as much as i can before i start using my wallet.

cheers.