I don't think it's ever been a true monopoly, certainly not like Bell Telephone was here in the states. The big three (MOTU, Emagic, Steinberg) have co-existed with Digi for the entire duration. One would certainly guess that with the onset of faster computers that Native is certainly the way of the future but for many professionals Digi still holds the key. In L.A. it's rare to do a record without PT. Digi has a choice to either hold steady with their current hardware solution or at some point go the way of MOTU and offer cheaper solutions. It will be interesting to watch. As for the software most people consider PT a nice clean interface that operates more like a tape machine and console. I can't stand mixing in Logic. As for Cubase, I've only used it a few times and at this point it doesn't have a very strong hold in American studios.

Rob

{I can't stand mixing in Logic}
I love mixing in Logic as far as being completely intuitive.Logic has you completly covered,Being a producer with a degree in music and being taught mixing by the great Jack Richardson I found Logic having a steep learning curve but found there was not much that we could not do ,samples,proper midi adjustments ,ect ect...We were a pro tools house for years!I still don't mind it !But with the revolution of vst cards from Universal audio and the power core .I find the sonic sound to be far more rounder darker more like tape than say Avid ,the sound is very thin brittle almost harsh,I don't mind Steinberg .Although not my Choice .Just a opinion from Canada.

I'm a Logic user (and lover) as well.

And, while I'm no expert or insider to any degree, it's looking more and more like Logic is challenging Pro Tools for the Kingship of pro audio production.

Given Apple's acquirement of Emagic, and given that Digidesign continues to work with Emagic in their support of Pro Tools hardware, I'd say it's a fair bet that Pro Tools loses some of its grip as the absolute high-end standard.

oh...just you wait till Nuendo 2.0!! ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

At that point it's a real problem for PT users!
Serious stuff coming out soon!!

That's all I can say!

Opus :D

Originally posted by robmix:
As for the software most people consider PT a nice clean interface that operates more like a tape machine and console.

Rob

I personally think the interface sucks.
That's just me.

I personally think the interface sucks.
That's just me.

Well said sir!!!

Opus :D

Nuendo 1.6 dose just fine for me. Only one minor glitch but found an easy work around. I have worked in a studio for years working on major and underground projects for years. Sonar is a great scratch pad. Logic well wasn't my flavor not to say it is not good (I probably gave up to soon), PT didn't feel right, and Steinberg I never tried until Nuendo came out. I had no choice, but once I mixed on this sytem I loved it. I was inches from going with Sequoia. Nuendo works very well and that is the bottom line.

This thing of Pace/i-lok really sucks. Their prices are too high also. Staying with PT MIx/OS 9.2.2/5.1.1 for a loooooooooong time!

Originally posted by Opus2000:
oh...just you wait till Nuendo 2.0!! ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

At that point it's a real problem for PT users!
Serious stuff coming out soon!!

That's all I can say!

Opus :D

Yes Nuendo seems to be the "other" program that is going to be the one to give Digidesign a run for their money. Nuendo just might be the one to break the bank! The alternate Standard! Next purchase for me will be a Pentium computer with Nuendo ... but not until I wear the one I have out ... Kurt

I agree, Protools is a joke - it reminds me of using a Mac in 1985. I also think that Logic is quirky and has a poorly designed interface. Nuendo / SX is clearly a huge step foward above the rest. And most VST options are much much cheaper for better or as good quality.
Don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, just my thoughs on the subject.

Nuendo 2 will change the shape of things to come.
With computer power breathing fire now and spewing radiation in a couple of years I think PT's will melt under the fall out. Looks like a white winter coming for PT.
Larry :D

I personally can't wait to see how Nuendo will perform under intels new 800fsb! I use Nuendo daily at work and love it.

I have to say that the folks at Digidesign will probably adapt to the current situation. Computers are getting speedy and native will be the future I think. I'm sure that they are already working on their marketing to adapt to current times. Nuendo 2.0 will kick some butt but unfortunately it still doesn't have beat detective. At this point I feel most PC daws need a UAD or Powercore card to share the load because of the lack of CPU power for the intense processing a good plugin requires. It's looking like the future will be bright for users if the software companies can produce enough income to remain in business.

After being a long time user of Steinberg products on both platforms, I have no confidence in Steinberg.

I've yet to see any evidence that their purchase by Pinnacle has improved their quality control. They appear to have to many products for their staff to handle.

Halion2 contains the same bugs from the previous version.
They have no faith in their updates they all hit the scene as betas.

I was a Cubase user since version 3.x, traditionally it takes them 4-5 updates befor you get the advertized product.

Nuendo has been getting more attention than SX/SL.
Ex-Logic users are leading the exodus to Samplitude.

If the Nuendo2 release is buggy, will they remain a viable company? ;)

Originally posted by DIVO:

As far as I can tell the only reason why Protools is still hanging on as the industry leader is because digidesign managed to corner the market early. Nothing but clever marketing.

Sounds like a good argument for the popularity of Microsoft. ;)

No the Digidesing empire is not dead.

Recently helped a client wire his studio for PTHD.

So far this year he has generated over $80,000 in income.

From an initial investment of less than $10,000, he's doing fine.

Originally posted by G-Dub:
No the Digidesing empire is not dead.

Recently helped a client wire his studio for PTHD.

So far this year he has generated over $80,000 in income.

From an initial investment of less than $10,000, he's doing fine.

G-Dub, That's pretty incredible ... What kind of clients is he serving? A success like that is very rare. If we could all turn 80K in 5 months off of a 10K investment, we would be in heaven... Was your friend using PT before he installed this new system? 10K doesn't buy very much in the PT world.. Kurt

Well, the funny thing is, Protools-less people always seem to hate on the beast... why so much hatred I wonder? Like nuendo/logic/cubase/gizmoxxx ? I'm hip to that! as long as it gets the job done!!!!
Get the best tool YOU can afford, to get the JOB done! it's still YOU behind the mouse/screen/computer/control surface/whatava....
And now back to mixing on my HD3 :cool:

Peace out y'all!

P.

Originally posted by Petermix:
Well, the funny thing is, Protools-less people always seem to hate on the beast... why so much hatred I wonder?

P.

For me it's that it is so expensive and due to them releasing new product every 16 months there is no way for a small studio to recoup the costs, thereby making it unatainable. So we choose other stuff that is just as good but costs 1/4th the price and pray that they go belly up at some point so that we too, can be competitive and have a degree of compatibility. I just wonder if they think we are all made out of money... that's my only problem with Digidesign..

It's popular to hate popular things, ironically.

Well let's put the shoe on the other foot.
Why is PT so expensive? Other that it being a standard in pro rooms across the planet, what is so much better about a Pro Tools rig to justify the price? $20,000 for a 16 in out with sync capibility vs. $4000 to $5000 for the same thing in Cubase/Nuendo/Sonar? Most people I have head speak of this seem to think that PT doesn't really even sound as good. So why is it so expensive? The hardware isn't as good, people are always going and getting better converters, a lot of people don't care for the interface.. what is better? Kurt

Kurt, I have a PT system here and I can say that it is very reliable. I agree that they might not be the best thing in the world, TDM plugins are too expensive, but this system is really cool.
I have never used Logic, seems it is gong to be the big enemy.
Digi needs to drop prices.That is why they are somewhow incrementing their massive packs.
It is good to us that a monopole does not exist. Would you guys go back to ADATs and DA88´s? :eek: There was a time everybody loved them and see now.... if we could just transform them into fancy VCR´s!lol

Also, I would never trade my Macs for a PC - never!!!!!
Oka, that very smart guys build very stable machines, but the average guy thru windows xp/2000? no way...

ACB
I think if you used a PC with XP Pro you would be surprised. It is an established fact (just ask Opus) that PCs are faster than a contemperary Mac. There was a time whe Mac was the leader but not any more. But Mac or PC the question is "What makes Pro Tools worth so much more???" $20,000 vs. four or $5000??

He was all analog, made the transition to a PTLE system.

Became confident in the digital domain and upgraded.

He has mostly coporate clients, voiceovers, new media, and commercials. He also is gaining a reputation for remixes.

It's tough trying to make a living off of bands, especially when everybody THINKS they can record themselves.

He does his work during the day, and lets bands, and producers come in afterhours.

He has an agent, but gets plenty of word of mouth work.the PT HD system created a buzz and people seek him out.

There seems to be a corporate client trend in this region Bad Animals studio (used to be co-owned by the rock group heart) Sold it large rooms for bands, to conentrate on sound for movies and TV. They basically have four PT TDM suites.

According to the regional trade publication Media Inc. they have about 15 employees and booked over $6,000,000. last year

http://www.badanimals.com

Originally posted by G-Dub:
He has mostly coporate clients, voiceovers, new media, and commercials. He also is gaining a reputation for remixes.

It's tough trying to make a living off of bands, especially when everybody THINKS they can record themselves.

According to the regional trade publication Media Inc. they have about 15 employees and booked over $6,000,000. last year

That is great! And I agree that PT is a standard in this area of the business, although I don't understand why, other than they were there first and became entrenched. But I still don't get an answer to the question Why is it worth more than other systems that can do the same thing but go for one fifth the cost (other than compatibility)? Just because PT and Mac were the first to get a system that worked is no reason for the prices to remain so high. Yes it was the only way to do it 5 years ago but now native power has pretty much usurped that approach.

Also , myself, I am a musician. I want to work in music. I tried doing VO and to tell you the truth, I thought it was a bore. A regular snore fest. I don’t mean to demean it or be insulting but for me it’s not an option. Corporate clients, same thing. Remixes? Not my cup of tea. I don't like that kind of music. This may all be fine for "him" and I am happy that it is, but for me, I do this for the music and the buzz I get from being musically creative. A PC and a native power program works perfect for me and costs waaaaay less. I just don't feel the need to dump 20 K every 16 months to stay current in PT.

I think ProTools will have a strong grip in the professional market until engineers are confident that they can rely on a native system to work ALL the time.
In a project studio, or somewhere that charges $60/hr or less, system glitches aren't a big deal. Just redo the track, or edit out a few drop-outs. Basically, the client is getting what they've paid for.
In a bigger studio (maybe a few platinumn albums on the wall), system instability is unforgivable. With all it's downfalls, PT is the most reliable thing out there, for what it does.

I just don't like the sound quality. Even the HD systems don't sound near enough to "perfect" for what they're charging. At least they made an effort to make good hardware this time (Hindsight being 20/20, I couldn't imagine why anyone would pay that kind of money for a 888/24!)

I think the line is drawn when you enter the movie/TV post production world.

The intensity level, money level, butt on the line level is at max.

At that level hardware DAWs from AMS-Neve, Euphonix,Fairlight, and several others are preferred. On that level PT is the lowend.

Avid, Digidesign's parent company is a big player in the broadcast world.
They position the Avid/Pro Tools combination as the modular low cost solution for film/video post production.

Check out the video at the Avid site.
USBpre

http://www.ams-neve.com/prod/l3sc.htm
http://www.euphonix.com/ :D

Thanks guys. Now those two answers made some sense. But with that in mind I don't think it will be long before PT is usurped. My Cubase system has been rock solid for almost a years now although I admit it doesn't run 24-7. I waited to get into DAW until I felt that native power could do everything that I was used to doing with tape, outboard and a console. I have been very happy and I am not looking back.

Kurt, Aren't you still using some outboard before going into your DAW?

Do you know Creamware?

It sounds great for me with the A16 16 channels ADDA converter. It has dedicated DSP processors and is compatible with native like vst/logic/samplitude etc... Great Plugins for this plataform and you can integrate external phisical equipment like compressors and EQ together with the DSP dedicated plugins and native plugins all together in the same mix!

That´s what they call FREE SIGNAL ROUTING!

The choice for me...

http://

Anyone here using Radar?

Forgive me for asking, but is that in any way related to SONAR? :D

I'm not certain but I think Sonar is mainly used when recording underwater. :c:

At that level hardware DAWs from AMS-Neve, Euphonix,Fairlight, and several others are preferred. On that level PT is the lowend.

I was thinking more about recording studios using ProTools. I see Euphonix and Fairlights in post production video suites, but most recording studios, even high budget studios, mostly use ProTools. I don't know exactly why this is, though. I haven't ever toyed with Euphonix gear, but the Fairlights are incredibly solid and sound great (to a much greater degree than PT). I think it's the functionality of ProTools. All the doodads and gizmos that are available must be a selling point for artists (and therefore, studios). Also, compatibility, since everyone has a PT setup (AES31 is really starting to help things out here).

Hi everybody,

I'm new here but far from new to the business. I found recording.org while trying to find "real world" opinions of the document created by the producers and engineers wing at grammy.com concerning the archiving of DAW tracks for future use. If you're not familiar with the document you can find it here:

http://www.grammy.com/recommendations.pdf

This document should be discussed as a new topic and I intend to do so, as reading it elicited a nearly 1,000 word response to the person that sent it to me.

I was provided one of the first midi sequencers available in the USA. The Roland MSQ700 was sent to me to create in-store demos. My first computer sequencer was a Mac/Performer combination which was incredibly expensive for that time and had no way to sync to analog tape.

Then I found an ATARI ST running Dr. T's software with the Phantom SMPTE sync option and I sold the MAC and never looked back. The friend who bought the MAC stayed with it. He still uses MAC and Pro-Tools and every time he has upgraded the computer he has had to buy new DigiDe$sign hardware because the "old" hardware isn't compatible with the new operating system or whatever.

In the past 10 years I've spent around 10 grand on computers, hardware and software and he has spent nearly $100,000.

To keep people spending this kind of money it is essential that Apple and DigiDe$ign perpetuate the "best of the best" myth. Apples cost more, not because they are better, but because of the multi-billion dollar ad campaigns which are usually viciously disrepectful to PC makers and users. And it's very suspicious to me that someone like the Producers and Engineers wing at Grammy.com will write a White Paper on archiving digital audio and purposely include only Mac based products under the DAW category.

Jim Boling

Jim,
Welcome to RO! Nice to have you here. I agree with your statements. I too am suspicious of the attitude that many PT users and studios perpetuate. I feel that it is their way of locking out smaller producers and studios insuring that only they get the big dollar projects. Apple and Digidesign further this "conspiracy", co developing their products and by the nature of their incestuous relationship. I used to live in the Bay Area and I have made several trips to Palo Alto facilities of both Apple and Digidesign and I can say without a doubt that there are Digidesign people working at Mac and vice versa. Kurt

Interesting document, but not really surprising.

Back in '95 I was a fulltime student learning multimedia. Our instructor was working for what was then called the Microsoft Interactive Media Group.

He arranged a tour for the class, it was an eyeopener. I was a total PC bigot and sorta went into shock when I saw how many Macs they had, it was about 50/50. At a later tour of MSN it was about 75% Macs. A well kept secret, but the NDA expired a couple of years ago.

At that point I bought my first Mac mostly for video work.

My wife is now a Microsoft employee, and arranged an informational interview at Microsoft Studios.

The only PCs in use were in peoples offices. Microsoft owns over a dozen Mac-based TDM systems
for audio, and they primarily use Unix based Quntel systems for their video.

The guy I inteviewed with explained that most the talent they wanted were Mac-based.

Even though those systems seem expensive to us, if you have sucess and make a profit, most business don't see a need to change.

So if you want an audio job at Microsoft, with stock options Mac-based Pro Tools experience is required.

It's the current state of the industry.
:c:

Originally posted by John Grimm (Vintage Studios):
Kurt, Aren't you still using some outboard before going into your DAW?

John,
Yes that's true. I mostly use my Manley EL OP and a nice pre or pres.. (I'm getting a nice selection of these built up here). I also have an 1178, a pair of Black LA4s and a Valley Dynamite.. plus drawmer gates and a whole stack of verbs that hardley get used.. Kurt

Kurt,

Thanks for the welcome. I really like the attitude in the discussions I have seen in these forums so far. There doesn't seem to be a lot of personal attacks even though there are so many differing opinions.

Either recording.org has the best moderators on the web or there truly is hope that mankind can learn to "just get along". (Oh my God, did I just quote Rodney King.)

G-Dub, that is a very interesting fact about about the heavy leaning toward Macs and Pro-Tools in Microsoft's audio division. Do you think this could be the sequel to "Silicon Valley Pirates"* and that Mr. Bill is gleaning all the knowledge he can from Mac and PT experts in order to design his own DAW platform.

*I'm sure you know the story about his developing Windows after a stint as a software designer for Apple.

Before I go, I would like to further discuss the document that I mentioned earlier. Since I think the document only exists to keep the myth of the Apple/PT monopoly alive, it may be enough on topic for this thread. I think, however that it will be way off topic by the end of the discussion. The idea of creating a standardized file sharing format is very good indeed, but it must be for ALL DAW users not just those who use MACs and ProTools. So I'll make it a new thread.

Good night,

Jim Boling

Originally posted by Jim Boling:
Thanks for the welcome. I really like the attitude in the discussions I have seen in these forums so far. There doesn't seem to be a lot of personal attacks even though there are so many differing opinions.

Kurt is smelly.