I recently purchased my first dedicated DAW setup, and for a while was torn between going PC (right now using Vegas for multi-track and Sound Forge for 2-track, but always open to other options when I have funds to explore with) and going Mac with PT. After spending time working on PT doing lots of relatively simple editing/re-mixing of sorts for a tv awards show I was working on, and taking a class in PT at Berklee, the decision was easy.

I found that PT is just very counter-intuitive in the way it works. Things that on many other programs I could make an educated guess on how to do I couldn't figure out without pulling out the manual or finding somebody with the answer on PT. I was able to get a MOTU interface that essentially had the same feature set as a 001 (the 828) except that it used firewire instead of a PCI card, and since I already had earlier versions of Vegas and Sound Forge from an earlier computer (which had reached the point of being unusable for audio due to its lack of space and RAM), the price was pretty close between PT and the setup I ended up going with.

The other supplementing factor was that I've been using PCs for as long as I can remember, and while I have no problem with Macs, I'm more comfortable tweaking and fixing a PC. And I found a company that makes a killer incredibly quiet rackmountable PC (Carillon) to run it all on. But the big thing was the lack of intuitive commands (particularly keyboard shortcuts) in PT.

FWIW,
Andy

you guys crack me up pro tools or nuendo? did you stop and look and see that nuendo is host based as well running its own interfaces and cards just like pro tools and motu for that matter? The only thing that kicks serious butt for nuendo is apogee makes some of the interrfaces instead of some other company. I love apogee over pro tools interfaces and the fact you can have a host based system with 16 apogee converters in and out with a native system for 5 grand is pretty amazing.

In a bigger studio (maybe a few platinumn albums on the wall), system instability is unforgivable. With all it's downfalls, PT is the most reliable thing out there, for what it does.

You've obviously never used a PC-based TDM system... The clunkiness of Protools, the poor quality of protools hardware, and crashing more than any other DAW I've ever used.

Hello all,
I have operated on Cubase and Acid over the last few years. I used Protools v.5 with 888's in school a few years back and since then was never able to edit audio for film as easily on the above mentioned programs, so I recently bought an Mbox with LE. I held out for quite a long time thinking that I wouldn't fall into that dreaded "Digi money/incompatibility pit" either. So why did I buy an Mbox? I crumbled! Well I work on a smaller scale then a lot of you out there I'm sure. I get small gigs, indies, low end commercials etc. I'm new at the game and can get away without an HD system at least at this point in my life. As far as bang for it's buck is concered, yes it's limited but you get an interface and a program, all for about 700 Canadian. You can't beat that. Think about it. If you're new to the game, go out and buy a decent/basic interface like an M-Audio Omni studio or an Echo Gina, you're still looking at about 500Cad. and no software. I would love to have an HD system but until I get past low paying, 24 track indie films, LE IS THE BEST BARGAIN ON THE BLOCK.
pAndAmOnkEY
P.S. Ever try doing post in VST? Ha!

Hmm Is Pro Tools expensive?
How much is an MBox again?

Originally posted by NoteFarm:
Hmm Is Pro Tools expensive?
How much is an MBox again?

Well, let's compare apples to apples. Comparing a 2-in/2-out interface to an 8-in/8-out or larger isn't quite a valid comparison for price. Of course it's cheap, but it's not that cheap for a stereo unit.

To compare for studio use, though, at a minimum you want to compare something like a MOTU 828, Presonus's FireWire unit (I can't remember the name, is it the Firestation?), or the Metric Halo Mobile I/O to DigiDesign's 001, so that we're talking similar input counts/feature sets.

After a while these debates become rather tedious. It's kind of like debating sports teams. Okay, so they spend a lot of money on the Yankees, but hey, they win - A LOT!

Any system which is properly installed and maintained is going to be stable. This means knowing what you are doing or hiring someone who does.

You don't like Pro Tools? Don't use it! Sure it's expensive, but so is a Mercedes as opposed to a KIA. Would I like a Mercedes? Sure I would, but I can't afford one. And PT is no longer as expensive as it once was. A Digi 002, with automated faders, a pretty nice interface with the software and four Focusrite mic pres can be had for around US$2,000.00. That's a pretty good deal. And guess what? It's native! And it can also be used as a stand alone mixer. The Digi series (001, 002, 002R & M-Box) is putting Digidesign solidly into the prosumer market and is helping them establish their high end native systems for the future. PT6.1 on OSX is almost exactly the same software as TDM systems.

Oh, by the way, I'm not hyping PT for any ulterior motives. I use Digital Performer and Logic as well. Never cared for Cubase in any form, just didn't fit me. Don't know anything about music software for the PC because I'm a Mac guy. It's a carryover from when Mac was the only way "way back when" if you wanted to do music on a computer. I really like MOTU stuff and install quite a few MOTU systems for my local clients.

One system is not "better" than another. It comes down to the axe that is a comfortable fit, expresses you the best and still manages to stay inside your budget.

Peace to all

Uncle Bob

:p:

There is nothing more dangerous than an idea when it is the only one you have.

Well said, Bob!

You sure you're my uncle? :D

Thinking on a smaller scale folks. If you want a basic system: Laptop, 2 i/o's, decent preamps, a software package, plug-ins, then the Mbox is a really good deal. No better combination deal in town.
Regards,
mIchAEl

I have been following this thread for a while now, and it has sparked the question that arises in my mind more than a few times. "WHY PRO TOOLS?"

Now Don't get me wrong. I use and love pro tools. No Question, but I have had a good chunk of experience on other systems that have performed equally as well, they just never felt as comfortable as PT did to me.

Anyway. I decided to do a little research to see if I can come closer to a real answer to the "why PT" question.

First, I asked a guy that I know, who recently opened a studio in my home town, why he picked PT over other options. He said "I had no choice"
naturally, my next question is "why?", to which he answers
"Well, my main business is mixing, and I get a lot of clients that have recorded in a bigger studio, and want me to mix it. Everyone in town owns a PT rig, and the easiest way to make myself compatable with them was to buy a PT rig"

(note: My home town is a small City in Canada with a population of about 270,000 people. There are 2 large studios here, 4 small-mid sized studios, and a handfull of home studios)

So, this guy bought a PT rig because he felt that he had no other choice but to make himself compatable with the larger studios in town.

secondly (I think that this is the big one!) I talked to a 50 musicians that I have gotten to know from all over Canada. ( I figured that just asking musicians in my home town would be a little biased considering that every studio here is a PT studio)
The one question that I asked them was:
"name one, and only one, PROFESSIONAL digital recording system
that you are aware of? (not nessicarily recorded on, just that you are aware of)

And here are the results:
46 said: Pro Tools
2 said: Cubase
1 said: MOTU
1 said: RADAR

Now, this does not mean that some of the 46 people that said "pro tools" weren't aware of other recording systems, Pro Tools was just the one that they thought of first.

From a strictly business standpoint, this is why I think Pro Tools is the top choice. Musicians, are potential clients, and if 92% of the musicians out there are aware of Pro Tools, then when they go into a studio that has Pro Tools, it would probably put them at ease, and make them feel a little more comfortable.

Also, if you consider where they most likely have heard of pro tools, it was probably from an ad in a magazine, probably with a quote from a well respected musician that said:
"Pro Tools is the Best...period"

That alone would probably sell a good chunk of musicians out there.

Kudos to Digi's marketing team. Digi probably would have sank without them

just my 2 cents/research.

elaborating on some of the above (and agreeing with Brodie):

i have been a pro tools user for about five years or so (whenever it was that the 888/24's first came out).

before that i was ADAT, so you can imagine how wonderful pro tools seemed to me in comparison. At the time, my other options were either native systems that didn't have anywhere near the raw power of TDM, Radar (great sound, limited editing), Fairlight (great system, but expensive, and just getting started again at the time), Paris (questionable if it was going to survive as a viable platform), and maybe a couple of others I'm forgetting.

I'm assuming I wasn't the only one frustrated with aging unreliable ADAT/tascam set-ups, and given what was available at the time, it can argued that Pro Tools, in spite of its cost, was one of the better options.

because many others were in the same predicament, you presently have a large user-base, some happy - some not. But people tend to stick with what they know feel comfortable with. "Brand loyalty" can't be underestimated. (It even happens regarding which pro audio forums people hang out in!) That's why you'll run into folks still using paris, opcode vision, etc. It sometimes takes a traumatic event to force a large scale change in user habits. That's why the trade-in from 888's to HD was handled surprisingly well (for a change) by digidesign - the upgrade path wasn't another $20,000 investment this time. Same with the massivepack promotion. Not saying it was cheap, but reasonable by Digi past standards. Of course, those promotions weren't as much help to first-time buyers.

On a practical note, i can't begin to add up how much money I would have lost by NOT having Pro Tools. These days, it seems like a lot of projects are "multi-studio". A lot of stuff comes to me that was started elsewhere in Pro Tools, either because they want to do piano overdubs here, the original studio got too busy, or whatever. Sometimes the session was on another platform that the client wants to convert to pro tools for editing, etc. Many of the engineers and producers (and even the musicians!) feel most comfortable working in Pro Tools among the various DAW options, and their first question on the phone is "You're a Pro Tools studio, right?"

so, while i may well have been able to be successful running Nuendo or Logic or DP, for me Pro Tools has given me a competetive advantage in my particular niche market, and in doing so, has paid for itself.

Well put Littledog.

You said everything that I probably would have said in my earlier post, had I not been posting at 4AM.

i just recieved nuendo 2.0, a couple of days ago....

if and when they work out the bugs, i believe this program will set the bar, hands down.

the improvement in audio fidelity is phenominal. for me thats what i really care about.

regarding if pro tools worth the money, if you are lucky enough to spend 20 thousand or more on a heavy duty pro tools rig the stability factor will definitley be there.

however, i think you really need to spend that kind of money to get stellar results, sonically and stability wise with pro tools. mac's and pro tools can and do crash just as often as pc's

i think in the next few months you guys will hear lots of things about nuendo 2.0. by the way,

it can import and export "omf" files and many more. so could nuendo 1.6 for that matter.

i am amazed at the jump in sound quality from sx/nuendo 1.6 to nuendo 2.0.

if sx 2.0 gets the same audio engine that nuendo 2.0 has now, pro tools, will have a real contender in steinberg that realisticly could topple the dynasty.

chris perra

(The thread that wouldn't die!!!! F7+5+9)

I do think Digidesign will have more competition. But OMF is their ace in the hole, Avid owns it and can change it at any time.

After all of the acquisitions, and mergers it looks like companies are trying to emulate the Avid/Digidesign combination.

Apple/ Emagic, Sony/ Vegas & Acid, Pinnacle/Steinberg, I'm not sure what Adobe is doing but they purchased syntrillium, and renamed Cool Edit, Audition.

Sony has the clout and the hardware, not know as a great softwre provider.
Sony bought Sonic Foundry's audio & video apps, but Apple hired the software developers resulting in Soundtrack (Acid for Mac ) that's bundled with Final Cut Pro.

Adobe has pretty much abandoned the Mac-video market, after Premiere got beatup by the free iMovie and final Cut Pro. Leaving After Effects as the only Mac video app.

The jury is still out on Pinnacle & Steinberg. Haven't seen any evidence of an improvement in quality. Steinberg seems to be more interested in quantity, get the product to market, fix it later.

Can anybody step up and throw a body blow?

:cool:

Originally posted by chrisperra:
mac's and pro tools can and do crash just as often as pc's

I am glad I am not using the Macs that you have used. I have been running a TDM system for almost 3 years now and I have had not a single take lost. I think I have had the computer freeze maybe once or twice a year and I attribute that to extra software being used on the machine. It is the most rock solid platform I have ever used and I have used Cubase, Sonar, Logic and Digital Performer.

Originally posted by chrisperra:
the improvement in audio fidelity is phenominal. for me thats what i really care about.

i am amazed at the jump in sound quality from sx/nuendo 1.6 to nuendo 2.0.

if sx 2.0 gets the same audio engine that nuendo 2.0 has now, pro tools, will have a real contender in steinberg that realisticly could topple the dynasty.

Here is the problem that I see with that. How many musicians going into a studio to record are honestly going to be able to hear a difference. Even if you set up a side by side demo will they really be able to hear the difference? I haven't used Nuendo so it might really sound better but I don't know. I am just saying that I don't think that most of the people out there are really going to care about how this stuff sounds. The stuff you record in the studio never sounds as good on most other speakers so when they drive home listening to their mp3 players, they are going to be satisfied using Pro Tools even if it doesn't sound as good. I personally like the sound of a Studer 24track but I can do more in Pro Tools and thats why I sacrifice the sound.

Pro Tools for Post is the only way to go! It works, I love it and most importantly the clients love it! The size of the movies/ shows I do in 5.1, nothing else comes close.

A good solution might be to put a copy of Pro Tools Free ofr Pro Tools LE on your computer. Then if any of your prospective clients ask, you can truthfully say "Absolutely, I have Pro Tools, bring your work right over." Then just do the work in Nuendo 2.0!!! :)

Digi, are you listening!! You are too expensive.

I had a mix system and downgraded to the 001, with the change and there was alot, I got some better mics and better converters than the DD ones, still with money I put it into plugs and still have money.

Ok, I traded some features going back, but not $ dollars worth of features. Now I am producing great music and very happy with the macs native grunt, enough to question the TDM systems worth and to be honest I would have to question the TDM mindset that Digi Has everyone believing.

However, Protools is a honest system, clean and easy to use, I owned Logic from 2.4 to 5.0 and still find it a cumbersome, difficult interface. I do not believe that Cubase plugs shape up to the TDM plugs in quality and if you put them side by side you can hear the difference in quality, without a doubt.

Now, back on PTLe ,I dont have the same TDM Quality, however the hardware I have is sensational for my means.

I love protools on the OS9 , I am still waiting for the Guinie Pigs to finish testing OSX for us, its still undercooked and too expensive for me, if it aint broke on OS9, wee, it still does the same things minus 96 sample rate and a few features to dangle the carrot for existing users to trial it.

Digi , the topic is accurate, you have many compeditors and the monopoly has weakened, how about giving your loyalty back to your users, give them features that freeware had 5 years ago and be realistic about your prices, by using your software without the hype of your hardware I can afford better gear for the bucks,better than your HD stuff that is more inflated than its worth, buying that stuff would be like chucking money at a new car when there is tons around that perform better at a rate that you can still own your own shirt when you leave the yard, shurely you can see that, but do you care, get real??

As long as people buy it, shit, I would love to sell your stuff and keep the proffit.

Ho Hum,

AJ

Hello. Hey guys this has been talked about since Pro Tools showed up on the market I suppose. While they have made massive strides on their hardware since those early days, I don't think I would exagerate by saying that 100% of people that choose to purchase Digidesign do it because of the software. Consider this then.

We have all disagreed and/or criticized Digidesign's policy regarding their software/hardware offerings at some point. But several of you have cristallized it here, and it has been said elsewhere before. People bitch and moan about hardware this and software that. But they keep using it. Why do you suppose that is? I believe Digidesign have been brilliant business visionaries. And bottom line folks it's a business.

In practical terms, Digidesign is a hardware company. You buy hardware from them and they throw in the software. In real terms, Digidesign is a software company. 100% of customers choose it because of the software. But there is that catch. It doesn't run on anything but their hardware.

Think of the software as the bubble gum that comes in Fidel Castro swimsuit trading cards. Now suppose everybody really likes that bubble gum. It's either the best gum on the market, or just as good as the best. But the only way to get it is to buy the trading cards, which sell for .75c to $1.50 a pop. You could sell the gum at .10c to .30c a piece.But would you really sell more of it?

Not only that, when you package it with Fidel, you hit $10 by selling at least 10 to 12 pieces. To reach that with the gum by itself you have to sell 35 to 40 pieces. So again, would you sell more of it by itself? And if you would, would it be so much more that it would give you a significantly bigger profit margin? In other words, would you go from selling $15 a day to $25 or $30. Because if you are going to end up with just about the same profit margin, why bother?

Well people will say they feel ripped off about having to see Fidel in a speedo just to get the gum. Don't like it, don't buy it.

Well people will call you a capitalist pig for greedily squeezing every cent out of your customer. Capitalism is built, amongst other things, on supply and demand. People demand, you supply.

Well people will say it's nearsighted to think you are the only game in town. Eventually somebody will come up with gum just as good or better. And because you have created such animosity from customers feeling ripped off, the minute somebody comes up with that gum, you will go out of business. Maybe. Maybe not. But there is nothing you can do about that. It's an open market, capitalist pig society. The better gum wins. Supply and demand. All you can worry about is making the best gum you can make, and see how the market reacts. Then react according to that.

Just to go one step further on the gum analogy. The gum/trading cards are the market leader, despite Fidel. So opinions on actual quality vary, and the capitalist market is open so there is other gum. So you would figure that there is something about that gum that makes people endure pictures of Fidel's fall line up. Because if there was something in the market that was just as good or better, why would people bother with Fidel? In other words, why would anyone pay so much more for the Fidel gum if they can get other products for a third of the price or less?

So I have to ask you. Which Fidel, if any, do you endure to chew on that gum?

Well.....the hard ware has some impact. Looks like Digidesign just fired the next salvo.
http://www.digidesign.com/news/details.cfm?story_id=414&localonly=N

Doubles the voice count per card!

:cool:

Damn I posted to this thread again???????
:roll: :roll:

Originally posted by ajazzie:
Digi, are you listening!! You are too expensive.

I had a mix system and downgraded to the 001, with the change and there was alot, I got some better mics and better converters than the DD ones, still with money I put it into plugs and still have money.

Ok, I traded some features going back, but not $ dollars worth of features. Now I am producing great music and very happy with the macs native grunt, enough to question the TDM systems worth and to be honest I would have to question the TDM mindset that Digi Has everyone believing.

However, Protools is a honest system, clean and easy to use, I owned Logic from 2.4 to 5.0 and still find it a cumbersome, difficult interface. I do not believe that Cubase plugs shape up to the TDM plugs in quality and if you put them side by side you can hear the difference in quality, without a doubt.

Now, back on PTLe ,I dont have the same TDM Quality, however the hardware I have is sensational for my means.

I love protools on the OS9 , I am still waiting for the Guinie Pigs to finish testing OSX for us, its still undercooked and too expensive for me, if it aint broke on OS9, wee, it still does the same things minus 96 sample rate and a few features to dangle the carrot for existing users to trial it.

Digi , the topic is accurate, you have many compeditors and the monopoly has weakened, how about giving your loyalty back to your users, give them features that freeware had 5 years ago and be realistic about your prices, by using your software without the hype of your hardware I can afford better gear for the bucks,better than your HD stuff that is more inflated than its worth, buying that stuff would be like chucking money at a new car when there is tons around that perform better at a rate that you can still own your own shirt when you leave the yard, shurely you can see that, but do you care, get real??

As long as people buy it, shit, I would love to sell your stuff and keep the proffit.

Ho Hum,

AJ

I don't know what you are talking about. OS X with PT6 is way more stable than any previous combo, and you no longer have to worry about extensions or managing memory like you do in OS 9.2.2.

As far as Digi being this evil monopolizer, they didn't get that way on their own. When they came out with their line of non-host based systems, there was absolutely nothing else out there. There still is not. The reason is loyalty from the industry as a whole. Other companies have come along and have tried to give product away to get the loyalty, but the majority buy PT TDM systems. There is no comparison for track count, DSP, etc.

I agree that the days of DSP upgrading are numbered, but not totally until a PC will emerge with double digit GB of Ram, etc. Because Apple crapped on Digi, and Digi will go PC only. It is a matter of time.

From a completely different perspective........
For those of us actively involved in DSD recording, DigiD is not even a blip on our radar. SADIE, Pyramix, Sony Sonoma & Oxford, and now Sonic Studio are the DAW players in this game (along with hardware from Genex, EMM labs, DCS, Prism and others) and no one misses that other system at all.

Steve
http://www.lexington125.com

I agree that the days of DSP upgrading are numbered, but not totally until a PC will emerge with double digit GB of Ram, etc. Because Apple crapped on Digi, and Digi will go PC only. It is a matter of time.

Would'nt that be like shooting yourself in the foot. I mean this is business not personal.
You (meaning Digi) have to use youre own free time for grudges and smile at work.

With over 95% of the TDM systems being Mac-based, Digi isn't going anywhere soon.

With the new hardware it will take time for native systems to catch-up.

:roll: posted again!!!! When will I learn????
:c:

In the " Hollywood " post production circles, populated entirely by bean counting Lemmings, PT is in fact the standard. Studios who have embraced ProControl mixing on the cheap can and have demanded that all elements be delivered in PT sessions. Post houses who have been using Fairlights and Waveframes for years are switching their entire facilities over to PT, all networked, compatable, and ever-so-cool!

IMHO, a tool which attempts to be all things to all people is NOT necessarily the best tool for some specific tasks.

Rick Crampton

And this started back in 2003. :LOL:
I guess I should rename the thread to " Is the Avid monopoly over".

audiokid, post: 444121, member: 1 wrote: And this started back in 2003. :LOL:
I guess I should rename the thread to " Is the Avid monopoly over".

Wow. A history down here. I'll be reading all the previous posts of the commentators to this thread. Oh, btw, audiokid, why isn't that an option for you? I'm not able to view your profile and your previous messages. Is that your choice or a bug?

Kaan, post: 445792, member: 50244 wrote: I'm not able to view your profile and your previous messages. Is that your choice or a bug?

choice

Kaan, post: 445792, member: 50244 wrote: Wow. A history down here. I'll be reading all the previous posts of the commentators to this thread.

(y)