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Opus2000 7 January 2002

Ok..here we go..the beginning stages to building a complete PC Digital Audio Workstation!
First thing we want to cover is the basics..
Motherboards and Processors
Which one do we choose? Which one is better for us? Which one has more proven success rates? Which ones do certain audio hardware manufacturers recommend?
There are several Motherboard manufacturers..
Asus, Abit, Intel, Tyan, Tiger, MSI, Shuttle and a few others. Asus and Abit are typically the favored brand for their reliability and superior performance ratings. MSI is slowly becoming a very popular board as well but some of the first revision dual proc boards by them had some issues but were fixed with newer revisions. The choice is not easy sometimes due to certain factors we have to look out for.
These factors are the chipsets. The Chipsets are key because they determine how the components on the board are going to work. The chipsets instruct each component in way that tells them who they are and what their purpose is.
Chipsets include..Via, Intel, AMD, Sis and Ali. So far Intel has proven to be the most stable especially the 440BX chipset..but the 815E and the 850 chipset are very strong so far in performance wise. Via has had some really bad track records with bad instructions to components which dont get along with certain audio hardware or motherboard components. Via has what is called the 4in1 patch which updates the chipset to work correctly. So far most users that update the chipsets have been able to work ok..but there are the intermittent issues that do arise every once in awhile that cant be explained and when switching to an Intel chipset the issues are resolved. There are several flavors of the Via chipset but the most recent..the KT266 model has proven to be ok.
AMD chipsets were shaky at first as well but have been developed for better instruction and performance alongside their processors
To make a long story short...As long as you configure it correctly with all the recent patches and BIOS settings everything will be ok!
Now...on to Processors!
Intel vs. AMD..one of the biggest arguments as to which one is better and which one has better performance.
Intel has led the way for the longest times until AMD suddenly got their act together and built the Athalon processors. Now, we have heavy debates as to which one is truly better and which one will come out with the faster chip and more performance oriented processor!
The Athalon MP and XP series processors are making headway with more plugin processing power over the Intel processors..this is good news for those who over burden their systems with too many plugins and effects!
Now, there is a factor here..that really depends on your software and if it has been updated to handle the latest FPU(Frames Per Unit) cycles that new processors take advantage of. This again goes back to the chipsets! It's a no win situation sometimes! If software companies dont revise the code to handle the processors new instruction coding then the new processor is useless to us! In fact when the P4's first came out they acted like a PIII and nothing like a P4 should until the software companies updated their codes! Now most software products are desgined to handle it so it's not an issue anymore!

Are we confused yet? Good...because if you think that I dont get confused sometimes..you're nuts! I'm only human as well! lol
Anyhue..this is just the beginning discussion to get you to understand the major factors into deciding on a system to build.
now that I have broken the Ice I want to hear from people on any questions or any part of this they want to get into indepth detail on..let the fun begin..
Next Step will be determining which case to get and power supply and fans and all that fun stuff!
Opus

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anonymous Mon, 01/07/2002 - 10:43

Hey Opus!
Timing is everything. I'll be building (read "my computer guy and I") a new box this weekend. Will run mainly Sonar (movin' up from Cakewalk Pro Audio 9) with WDM drivers on Windoze 2K. Frontier Design Dakota card. Do you have any specific recomendations for mobo and cpu? My thoughts are PIII 1gig. Perhaps faster, up to say 1.4 or 1.5 but I haven't done any research past the 1gig spec. I've always run the 440BX chip set and wonder if there are mobos with same that will handle 1.5 gig cpu's. I'm under the impression that I'll have to change chipsets to go 1gig or higher. Any comments would be most appreciated.

Later,

Opus2000 Mon, 01/07/2002 - 12:11

Ok...this is the part about the chipsets I was talking about.
Certain Audio hardware manufacturers will give reccomendations as to what chipsets they have had success with and others they have not. You can pretty much say that all 440BX chipsets are totally fine and no issues arose at all.
Frontier Design cards work with all chipsets..supposedly!! It's the drivers that are the case here..the WDM Win2k drivers are in the beta stage and arent that stable just yet..
If going with a PIII 1Ghz you will want to go with the Intel 815E chipset..Asus TUSL2-C(or M)motherboard is what I reccomend for that processor..you get PC133..ATA100 and a very stable system. The 440BX chipsets are outdate and dont have ATA100 specs to them..only ATA66 at most!! so youre better off with a newer chipset.
most boards that accept the Tulatins will accept the PIII 1.2+ chipsets..If going with anything higher you might as well go for a P4 processor at that point.
Hope that helps
Anyone else?
Opus

Opus2000 Mon, 01/07/2002 - 13:08

Good Question Seven...The P4 is probably well worth it due to it's faster FSB(Front Side Bus Speed...I'll get into that one later!!) and better FPU coding and cycles!
The PIII is pretty much a coppermine..so the Asus board I mentioned will work with that processor! So the 1Ghz is actually perfect for that board!!
Opus

Jon Best Tue, 01/08/2002 - 06:17

Depends on which chipset you're looking at- the (Intel) 850, that supports the higher frontside bus RAM (RDRAM, PC600, PC800, Rambus are names you'll see) does justice to the P4.

The 845 is an Intel chipset that supports the P4, but with PC133 RAM, and is totally worthless.

So, if you're going to spend the money for a P4, then spend the money for a board with the higher FSB speed chipset and faster ram.

Me, I'm still leaning towards dual 1.5 Xeons, as the extra $600 (total system) should buy a boatload of stability.

Originally posted by seven:
WOOHOO!!! I LOVE THIS!!! Okay...so, is the P4 worth getting? In your opinion of course...humble or not... :) And...does the TUSL2-C support the 1gig coppermine P3?

Opus2000 Tue, 01/08/2002 - 07:34

Allready told you Seven...the Asus TUSL2-C or M board...best one for that since it has intel chipset and is known to work very very well..remember I built a system with that board and processor and it rocks!!
Opus

P.S...next Step is coming today on Cases and Power supplies also floppy and IDE cabling as well!!!

Opus2000 Tue, 01/08/2002 - 10:22

Hey Bear
Yes, I've been reserved about AMD's more because of the chipsets..but now with all the patches for them it's been ok. But....there's a catch!! There's an issue with VIA chipsets and there data transfer rate...it turns out..IT SUCKS!!! go figure!! lol...but there is a patch from an independant programmer that supposedly fixes that issue..so, VIA once again goes on my shit list!!
That's why I always reccomend Intel chipsets. But the newer AMD chipsets are rocking these days so I would find yourself an AMD chipset before thinking about a VIA!!!!
here's the article
http://www.tecchannel.de/hardware/817/index.html

Now...your question on P3's vs P4's
well..if you go with the PC133 version of P4 you might as well save some money and stick with a P3...no performance gain there on the P4's!
The different version of P3's are Coppermine, Xeon and a form of Celeron. The main differences are the material it's made with to deal with heat factor and performance rating..the Xeon is supposedly a lot better and the Coppermine being the next in line..Celeron being the low budget processor for the money weary consumers.

The new DDRAM is much faster but when it comes down to AMD vs intel on the P4 vs XP or MP processor...thats a new one I need to see some bench marks on...but yes, the Athalons are handling way more plugin counts than the Pentiums at this stage!!!

P3's not being made anymore....hmm, havent heard that than again havent paid attention and wouldnt doubt it in the least bit!!!
Opus

anonymous Tue, 01/08/2002 - 10:52

And another!

I'm getting the feeling that a P4 is perhaps the way to go. I had been hearing that it was not sorted out for audio apps yet, but it appears that some are having good experiences(?)

OK, if I were to go P4, say 1.5 or higher Ghz, is there a specific mobo recommendation?

Any known conflicts with Sonar, Windoze 2k or XP, WDM drivers?

Anything else that y'all recommend I investigate before taking the plunge (this Saturday! Yippee!)

Thanks again! This is an awesome thread, er two!!

Opus2000 Tue, 01/08/2002 - 11:57

Ok...Seven
Looking at the Intel site I dont see much of a difference on the socket differences. The only difference being that there are more pins which means a cooler processor..The less pins the more instruction passes it has to go thru..So..I would look for a 478 socket board
Bump..
http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/d815eea/features.htm

Couldnt be a simpler explanation!! I'll let Intel amaze you with their technological explanations!! lol
Keep em coming folks!!
Opus

Opus2000 Tue, 01/08/2002 - 12:03

Ooop...missed the part about the OS and drivers!!
The OS has nothing to do with Processors..the OS will definately run better with better processors and faster RAM..that goes without saying!! It's common sense at that point.
Drivers..again, nothing to do with processors..up to the company developing them to make them work with WDM compatability!
Again, I highly reccomend you stick with Asus boards..you'll find just about any serious computer audio geek will say the same thing!! Asus or Abit!
Sonar...well, thats a different story alltogether..Cakewalk had some serious issues when they released that software..I'm surprised it hasnt bankrupted them as of yet! Too many stupid issues that they have had to deal with. Personally I cant stand that platform..it lacks serious GUI interfacing and too many god damn hidden menus!! Plus their synch ability truly sucks!!
Thats my shtick and I'm shticking to it!!
Opus :D

anonymous Tue, 01/08/2002 - 13:13

Hey Opus,

Thanks again man! Do you have any specific mobo recommendations for a P4 1.5+Ghz CPU? Or any specific chipset? I will go ASUS or ABIT but which model(s)??

On a side note, I've been with Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 for quite a while and I am real comfortable with it. I do mainly audio but need midi sequencing occaisionally. What do y'all think I orter check out as alternatives? I'm makin' no promises :roll: but I'm always open to whatever......... :eek:

Opus2000 Tue, 01/08/2002 - 13:22

Go with the Asus P4B-266 model motherboard..DDRAM capability. As discussed before it makes no sense to go with PC133 SDRAM and lose out on performance!

Apps...try Cubase if you want to try another app!!
It's primarily the same as Nuendo just not as much features as Nuendo!!
If you are used to an app then it might be good to stay with it but....Cubase offers VSTi support where Cakewalk doesnt..it's a DirectX form..DXi I believe they are called!! Plus Rewire capabilities with Reason and or Rebirth!!
The list goes on and on!!!
Opus

seven Wed, 01/09/2002 - 15:02

Okay, here's my planned setup so far...

1. Asus P4B-266 PC2100 board
2. 1.7 gig 478 pin P4
3. 1 gig PC2100 Crucial DDR
4. Matrox 20 gig ATA100/Matrox 60 gig ATA100
5. Win2k or XP?
6. Creative labs 52x CD-ROM
7. Creative labs 24x10x40 CD-RW
8. 1.44 floppy
9. Appian Jeronimo
10. US-428 and...
11. Cubase VST 32
Questions...
Are there any recommended cases, CPU fans and power supplies (including wattage)?
Also with the P4 should I go with Win2k or XP?
Thanks...this is good stuff man!!! :D

Opus2000 Wed, 01/09/2002 - 18:47

The case should be plastic as that makes less noise and is cooler in the long run as well. Obviously I mean plastic on the outter shell!! Case should be metal lined for stability of course!! You can also look into Rack Mount case!! 3U cases are about 175 or so!!
Anyways..PSU should be no less than 350 watts!!
Find a case that suits your needs!! Again, make sure it has plenty o room in it for airspace too!!
Opus

anonymous Thu, 01/10/2002 - 06:55

Thinking about updating my Cubase-based DAW, or building from scratch. I keep hearing the Asus TSUSL2 mentioned, (Also on the cubase.net forum). Anyone here thought about the Abit ST6-RAID? It is only about $5 more than TSUSL2, apears to me to have same specs (Intel 815EP (ICH2) chipset, ATA100) PLUS, onboard Raid and 4 channels of IDE. You can have 8 IDE drives, or, a beter choice, two CDs and two HDs, all on their own IDE channel.

anonymous Thu, 01/10/2002 - 07:16

New to this forum, just a couple of corrections for those as anal as myself

Opus -- FPU is floating point unit, that is the section of the chip that executes floating point math instructions -- important for DSP -- although some software uses fixed point math for DSP

Jon Best -- you're correct about the 845 and PC133 ram if you're talking prior Dec 2001, the current Asus P4B-266 uses the 845D which does support DDR ram up to PC2100 (DDR266)

There are other boards out there that use the SiS645 which enable DDR ram up to PC2700 (DDR333), probably only an issue with higher speed processors

One final point RDram has greater latency than DDR ram, note that this is latency regarding memory access -- a general system performance issue, NOT VST type latency -- a sound card driver issue

On the point of building a machine, I've built many over the last 10 years, and am considering a new box for myself. To my amazement, here in Canada, Dell beats all other sources by 15 - 20%, and I'm talking buying seperate components. You have to choose their upscale systems and be careful which parts you equip them with, but I've seen a lot of these boxes opened where I work and the quality is actually very good. Now they don't have the overclocking tweakabililty that gamers want but that's probably not applicable to a stable DAW anyway, and they are shipping models with P4 845D chipsets, just be careful about the number of memory and PCI slots

-- Good luck building or buying a great machine -- Geoff W

Jon Best Fri, 01/11/2002 - 05:26

Good to see you here.

Thanks for pointing that out- I hadn't noticed the 845d.

So, with the higher speed of RDRAM, and the lower latency of DDR, is there a compelling reason to go with one vs. the other? Just for information, btw- if I'm going to go dual Xeon, I don't expect the 860 to support DDR all that soon.

Originally posted by Geoff Waddington:

Jon Best -- you're correct about the 845 and PC133 ram if you're talking prior Dec 2001, the current Asus P4B-266 uses the 845D which does support DDR ram up to PC2100 (DDR266)

One final point RDram has greater latency than DDR ram, note that this is latency regarding memory access -- a general system performance issue, - Geoff W

anonymous Fri, 01/11/2002 - 10:11

I'm going to take a shot at this at the risk of exposing my ignorance -- I barley know the Xeon line, but I believe they're PIII based and have larger cache (2Mb??). If that's the case I believe there will be negligible difference between memory types. The P4 is MUCH more sensitive to memory starvation -- it has much longer pipeline -- that means much slower if it stalls because the whole damn thing has to be refilled. The combination of more cache and shorter pipeline should be in your favor here in terms of reducing memory access speed sensitivity with the Xeon -- Geoff W

Opus2000 Fri, 01/11/2002 - 11:05

Hey Geoff...there's no reason to be ashamed of not knowing something..as you saw I messed up on the FPU meaning!! lol
Anyways...Welcome to RO and the computing world!!Good to have ya abord here helping out. It's nice to see we have a large croud gathering here nowadays..
The Xeons are indeed PIII based but after that I know as much as you do...not sure what the pipeline is on them..I usually just slap the damn things in and see how well they work!! That's my research for ya!! lol
Opus

Jon Best Sat, 01/12/2002 - 07:13

We've all got ignorance to expose- I may as well join in- seems to be a habit of mine.... :)

Intel lists a PIII Xeon up to a little over a gig, and they also list a nonspecified Xeon up to the same speeds as the P4. They've got some of the same buzz words as the P4 listed- hyper-something pipelining, 400mhz FSB, etc., and a smaller L2 cache (512). I *think* these faster ones are P4 based.

If I go with current dual Xeons, it doesn't really matter what RAM I want- Intel's 860 chipset only supports RDRAM.

Originally posted by Geoff Waddington:
I'm going to take a shot at this at the risk of exposing my ignorance -- I barley know the Xeon line, but I believe they're PIII based and have larger cache (2Mb??). If that's the case I believe there will be negligible difference between memory types. The P4 is MUCH more sensitive to memory starvation -- it has much longer pipeline -- that means much slower if it stalls because the whole damn thing has to be refilled. The combination of more cache and shorter pipeline should be in your favor here in terms of reducing memory access speed sensitivity with the Xeon -- Geoff W

anonymous Mon, 01/14/2002 - 08:20

Went out and bought this last weekend. Will start the build tonite. I will use case and drives from old system. I will back up files before disasembling current box.

Anything else I need to do?

I have a feeling that I should do a custom install of Win 2000 so as not to load things I don't need. Can anyone point to a resource for instructions on how to do this?

I saw a reference to the "Opus Document" where can I find this?

I gotta say: this is the most awesome forum and thread! ! !! ! ! !! ! ! !! ! ! !! (7/8)

Later,

Opus2000 Mon, 01/14/2002 - 11:16

Yes...the infamous Opus Doc!!! I wonder how many people have that by now!!! Got to be in the high 500's ny now!! lol!!
Http://www.OpusAudioProjects.Net/Articles.htm

There you will find the Win2k Tweak and install guide!!

Make sure all drives are formatted..if you build a new machine you cant just put the old drive in and expect it to work properly. It will look for the old hardware and bios and get really really confused...good luck!!
Opus

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