Without Prejudice:
I want to be very clear about this post. I appreciate good gear that helps the mutual advancement toward better recording. I will try to be careful with my words.
Fact or fiction? Hype or BS?
Demystifying Super Clocks. Who needs an external clock?
I used the 10m for over a year. I am a guy looking for any improvements at this point so when someone says, hey, this thing makes "Huge" (not subtle") improvements to your sound... I am all over it!
I understand that once you are up to a certain level of sound, the last 5% towards pristine sound is baby steps that come at a price$.
I put this super clock to the test using it with the Orion 32 (including RME, Lavry and Prism converters).
After a year in my rack, I must be honest here and say, I never heard a bit of difference with or without the 10M.
I even doubted my ears so I had young ears (better than 18k hearing) spend time on this test and not one person heard the value with the 10M. We did numerous advanced null tests, all of which proved worthless. If this clock intended to "improve" the sound quality of your existing converters, it sure didn't do that for me.
What could be wrong I ask so I called the rep and began searching forums for answers on this product.
My finding and gut feeling about this clock look like snake oil and I will tell you why.
When I called the rep in this video he exclaimed I needed better speakers or better treatment. He cared nothing about what I heard or had any interest in the system I use, which btw ranks as a world-class hybrid tracking and summing system.
I'm disturbed by how this product is being marketed and shilled. It has me questioning the integrity of company marketing and why top-level engineers are promoting it to the mass as a sound improvement tool just by connecting it to your converters.
Well-respected people are claiming huge improvements so much so, that they are suggesting people doing electronic music get on the chain with this.
In fact... this was how the rep sold it to me too. He sent me a mastered track that was a before/after of electronic music :cautious: The difference between both versions was HUGE! This was electronic music, ITB music so I am thinking. WOW! This thing is amazing. I want one.
But... the videos, forum and direct marketing say a much different story.
As we see in the above video, here are world-class guys claiming huge improvements in their sound using the 10M, yet I am using it, running a very sophisticated mixing and mastering system and hearing no change. Why them, not me? How come the rep sent me a before-after example and said...
The rep says to me: "don't tell anyone about this track but you have to hear this... this is what tracks sound like with the 10m".
Let's get a few scenarios out of the way.
- Could the reason I don't hear any change be that I use Sequoia and do not have added ADDA products messing, or reducing the stability of my internal clock?
- Could it be because I do not round trip process back to the tracking DAW?
- Could it be that my system is simply telling the truth and exposing something?
Internal vs external clocking
Numerous top-level testimonials say internal clocking is a choice.
Something worth mentioning. I notice the majority of users who claim this clock is improving their sound are either on Pro Tools or Logic.
I have read less trusting comments from people claiming huge improvements in PC systems.
Being said, I feel there is a placebo effect and/or support of purchase going on here more than anything though, and let's not forget that the rep also sent me an audio example that he did, claiming it was the difference between the 10M in and out.
To even put more questions out, I have asked for proof it in a public A/B and no one has stepped up. We just read the hype without hearing the comparisons online.
This product is only good for those having seriously bad clocking, to begin with. It's certainly not for the guy with one converter in a simple system. Especially if all your mixing is ITB.
My feelings are, if a hybrid system is clocked properly, to begin with, your clock should be just fine. This is suited for a studio running all sorts of digital products in a rats nest going round and round.
Thoughts?
Comments
Clark, post: 464812, member: 51967 wrote: Revive improves older
Clark, post: 464812, member: 51967 wrote: Revive improves older classic gear with certain upgrades like the Birr-Brown converter chips and Burr -Brown mic pre’s( which are also use in all Digico consoles) and power supply upgrades.
Yes, I understand this.
I have never needed to improve my converters. They are world class.
Which is likely why I wouldn’t ever use the 10m. And why it’s likely, the only use for a 10m would be for improving a badly clocked system in the first place. Which is what this thread is all about
(what you are not understanding).
The 10m is no longer needed today. (15 + years dated)
I appreciate the need to improve older converters but you’d be way better off buying a better converter, Clark.
Clark, post: 464794, member: 51967 wrote: Yes, it is true. How m
Clark, post: 464794, member: 51967 wrote: Yes, it is true. How many charting mixs/masters have you done? Do you make your living only from
Music? Because ears forced to listen closely from the pressures of competing in big music are better than those who don’t. And there is a reason they spent $60000 mastering Thriller and checking it over and over in many places. It’s a recording and music legend for such reasons. The studio is deceptive unless it’s been a DAILY environment of professional output like a very busy mix or mastering engineer who prob knows their speakers well enough to trust them for where-ever they make get playback.
I built two studios, both produced top 10 songs. We don't have a 10m. So..... It's certainly not a necessary unit to reach high up on the charts.
audiokid, post: 464818, member: 1 wrote: No disrespect Clark but
audiokid, post: 464818, member: 1 wrote: No disrespect Clark but until now... You have been seriously mislead and uninformed.
I meant that a song can chart regardless of any gear that might have been used on it, which was me agreeing with you. And what exactly am I misled and MiS informed about? I’ve been working in Pro Tools since 98’ and train people and install home studio Gear since 2006. You’ve said some totally inaccurate things here. So what’s this thing you think I don’t know from this conversation?
Just got back after playing in a long tennis match, and this thr
Just got back after playing in a long tennis match, and this thread has gained three pages of ping-pong posts!
I've said several times in these forums that clock quality only has any bearing at the interface between analogue and digital (I'm using "interface" in its original meaning of "the common boundary"). You need precision clocking when converting the original waveforms from the analogue domain into the digital domain, and again when converting the stored or processed digital material back into the analogue domain so it can subsequently be heard. Clocking plays no part in any of the digital processing applied to the sampled data streams. It could be done on an abacus and no-one would know as long as it was arithmetically accurate. It's also not possible for electronic noise to corrupt the data while it's still in digital form.
I started designing with Burr-Brown converters and op-amps very shortly after they were first introduced in the late 1960s, and they, along with Analog Devices, have been the mainstay of my design work ever since. I was worried when BB was taken over by Texas Instruments, but, to their credit, TI has largely let the BB designers continue to create new high-quality parts independently.
It's common for enhancement companies to offer to upgrade run-of-the-mill equipment by exchanging the stock op-amps for higher-quality parts, and this can noticeably improve the performance. In my experience, this is often simply a reversal of the changes made by "value engineering" between the prototypes and the production units. Worse still, this can happen after the review models are released but before any consumers can get their hands on the production models.
Clark, post: 464821, member: 51967 wrote: And what exactly am I
Clark, post: 464821, member: 51967 wrote: And what exactly am I misled and MiS informed about?
Clocking plays no part in any of the digital processing applied to the sampled data streams.
Clark, post: 464821, member: 51967 wrote: I’ve been working in Pro Tools since 98’ and train people and install home studio Gear since 2006.
Many of us in this thread (the forum for that matter) have been working with Digidesign >Pro Tools 16 since 1998 and decade long before that. You are in a forum amongst many brilliant engineers, Clark.
However, the length of time any of us have been recording, mixing or mastering is meaningless if what we share along the way is misleading. Anyone claiming the 10M is a game changer today (including you) is outdated information. That's what this thread is about and what you are not understanding.
Clark, post: 464753, member: 51967 wrote: I think until you AB your recordings in multiple playback situations you can’t make a “snakeoil” claim. After conversations with friend Paul Grundman (Grundman mastering - legend) he told me about how this unit is a game changer and after renting it for mixing and mastering I’ve found the 10m makes the portability of my mix/masters much better. Unless you’ve mixed and mastered daily for 20 + years I simply don’t think your ears are good enough to tell from studio monitors. You HAVE to listen on multiple real life playback systems doing AB tests if you Wana make any legitimate claim to the 10m and it’s value.
Game Changer > Portability? You mean you like taking it with you where ever you go lol ;)
You claim it makes a difference but we can't hear it on our monitors? I recall Marcel from Antelope Audio repeating the same "sales pitch".
You say we need to be mixing and mastering for more than 20 years to hear the difference? This is complete nonsense. Our ears get worse as we age.
Clark, post: 464755, member: 51967 wrote: Rented twice for final mix and Master of 2 different records. Find the benefits huge. Better floor to ceiling frequency clarity and removal of digital smear. And a more musical transient presentation. I’m a huge fan of the 10m.
Are you 100% “in the box” (ITB)?
Clark, post: 464797, member: 51967 wrote: Yes. And don’t say the clocking does not matter if I am. Because it does. My brother did a bit to bit analysis (he is a high end programmer ) of bounces with and without the 10M and the bit profile was significantly different. So as a mathematical fact it was different. You could still argue if it improves the sound but it did have an impact.
Clark, post: 464821, member: 51967 wrote:
And what exactly am I misled and MiS informed about? I’ve been working in Pro Tools since 98’ and train people and install home studio Gear since 2006.
Hopefully you won't continue this Antelope Audio 10M nonsense anymore...
mho; technical discussions often revert to anecdotal observation
mho; technical discussions often revert to anecdotal observation as in this case. the often mistaken concept that there is some kind of magical processing that doesn't actually degrade a signal is a common argument often employed to justify the cost of "audio-fhool un-obtanious" products. the only reason for a super clock is to sync several digital systems in a facility where there's a lot of deep picture to sound production going on.useless in a home studio with just one DAW and a couple of midi sources. again, just mho.
Kurt Foster, post: 464830, member: 7836 wrote: justify the cost
Kurt Foster, post: 464830, member: 7836 wrote: justify the cost of "audio-fhool un-obtanious" products.
better known as "to legitimize support of purchase".
Disclaimer: My loss of respect for Antelope Audio started after they and their slippery social media shills purposely mislead the uninformed on gearsluts. I don't have anything to gain or loose by telling the truth here. Which is why I also created recording.org 22 years ago. It was created for musicians by musicians. We don't remove content that effects advertising. We don't advertise BS.
I have nothing to gain or loose by telling the truth or by asking questions that don't make sense to me or others. I am simply put, a professional musician with a good ear and love for great recording equipment.
I have been blessed having access to world class gear for decades. I have fun testing gear and recommending stuff I see useful. I don't have to like things I buy because I get most of the things I talk about for free. I don't accept payola or owe flavors to anyone.
Those describing the 10M as:
"Mixerman: It’s crazy how good this combination [Orion32 and 10M] sounds — everybody needs to get both of these products in their rigs.
is very misleading.
Mixerman: In addition to having everything clocked with the Orion32/10M and I am running Logic X on a Mac Mini. Logic X goes out to the Orion32 via USB, which is awesome because now I don’t need to use a PCIe chassis. I have heard other people say USB is sketchy, but I’ve haven’t seen or heard any evidence of this. In fact, it’s rock solid. The Orion32 outputs go into two Dangerous summing boxes, which then go out to my SSL G384 analog compressor. I’ve got a couple of Pulse Techniques EQP1a3s in line after that, then I go right back into the Orion32 / 10M combo. I have a variety of monitors, but these days I’m using the SE Munro Egg speakers in combination with my Tannoy 800As — all of this is plugged into my Dangerous monitor section, that is until my Raven MTX arrives.
The core of this system posted below is far more advanced, sophisticated to what most people ever have or use.
Being said, one would expect if mixerman needed and recommend the 10M, we all should trust his word and go out and buy the $8000 10m! Especially if we own the Orion 32 as well, right?
"Mixerman: It’s crazy how good this combination [Orion32 and 10M] sounds — everybody needs to get both of these products in their rigs.
So... I got the 10M and an Orion 32 and away we go.
For a about a year I tested the 10M with difference world class converters (including the Orion 32 ;)) with my awesome 32 ADDA two DAW hybrid summing system. We also used a few Bricasti's (so beautiful) and other awesome digital devices in this rig but to our surprise, there was ZERO improvement with the 10M. ZERO! How could that be?
Before I sold it, I couldn't help but trouble shoot why anyone would buy into this.
After reading what mixerman and others where recommending and doing themselves, I come up with this:
Mixerman and friends would likely fix their bad clocking issues and stop the 10M misinformation from spreading if they either got rid of the dated gear, upgrade their interface to RME and install it on a good computer (not a mac mini lol) with its own PCIe bus.
In all my tests using Orion 32, Lavry, various RME converters, Prism Orpheus and Atlas converters, none of these converters sounded any better with a 10M used as the master clock. In fact, maybe worse with the 10M. Clocking is always better internally.
I even contacted these manufacturers to confirm any doubt and all but Antelope and their shills said the 10M will not improve the internal clock of a converter. Majority say... the best clock is internal, which in my case was an RME HDSPe 32 MADI card. RME is a great company. Their drivers and interfaces are excellent.
It takes a lot for me to say something is snake oil but when it comes to the Antelope Audio 10M and all the BS "support of purchase" hype around it... , the 10M is snake oil at its best.
Some history: When I started recording.org back in 1998, external clocks started finding their way in studios that used badly clocked dated digidesign and Radar rigs of yesteryear.
If you follow the money from those who rave about the 10M, coincidentally, the source stems from dealers, mixerman and dated, uniformed engineers using screwed up systems that most of us would never use today.
Today... We can make awesome recordings, mic and master (especially master) ITB with very little if any outboard hardware now.
Below: If this awesome 32 track hybrid recording, mixing and mastering system didn’t benefit from a 10m, it certainly shouldn’t for most modern studios today ...
Those who claim a super clock improves the sound of an Orion 32 or other converters, you are either badly informed, have a mix of dated gear and simply have a badly clocked system to begin with. End of story.
Antelope 10mx clock
You will not hear any difference if you are mixing In the box, but you will hear a big difference when you use AD/DA sending your tracks to outboard gear or console and back to your DAW! Do a test print a mix sending your multiple tracks through your ad/da Antelope AD/DA interface and make sure your Interface is set to 10mx, activate 10mx, then print another mix with power off on your 10 mx, make sure both of your mixes start dead on zero, then take both mixes back to your DAW, make sure both mixes aligned dead on start, or align them till you hear no flanging sound when played together, then on one of them flip the phase, then you will be able to hear what 10 mx adds to your sound! If there is a scilance then no 10mx change in it! Normally if done properly you will hear only the sound of 10mx, it sounds more in the high register, you will hear some transients and wider sound..
Using external clock conected to one device is pointless.
There is something i don't understand, who can believe that an external clock can improve something when connected to a single converter.
An external clock has only one advantage and that is to use it as a master clock for many devices.
If you connect your external clock to many devices in your digital patch. So you can fight the biggest problem with digital audio, jitter. And when you fight jitter, you improve your audio quality.
It's something very simple.
You never heard the difference, simply because you didn't use it in the conditions that allow you to hear it.
audiokid, post: 464811, member: 1 wrote: Of course. Lol Why are
In the box is ALL digital, so as I mix converters only effect what I hear through the speakers, not my final mix output which stays in the computer and never go D/A again. But clocking does affect my sound as demonstrated by my brothers bit for bit analysis of an internal bounce. You seem to misunderstand the functions of clocking and conversion.