My choice is the 4006's in a spaced stereo pair config.

I usually add a spot mic for any soloist, just to be covered, although the soloist is often strong enough in the stereo pair that I don't need the spot for much at all. It really depends on the type of music, where they're standing, and placemnt of the stereo pair.

You may be ok with just the pair, but you'll probably have to experiment a little. Hopefully you can get some time during the dress rehearsal to try it out.

I've done the same with spaced TLM50's, often the soloist can sound a bit off/unbalanced (especially against large tutti). Myself, like Joe, would often set up a spot on the soloist!

With the local band, I'll have just about three rehersal sessions to hone in on the best position, if its a conductor who knows how to balance orchestra and soloist, there's usualy no problem! if he does not (not uncommon), then there's a lot of leg work!!

/ptr

Seems like a loaded question to me.

Let's see...if I get hired to do a gig and I haven't seen or heard the venue or group before (in other words, I'm in the situation I'm in now because I don't know the group you're recording and I don't know the venue...)I'd bring everything that I have and let the venue and group tell me what to do by listening.

In some venues, an SF12 would do the trick quite beautifully (and actually, Royer will be putting up a clip of mine on their site soon of an orchestra with a soloist recorded with nothing but the SF12). In some cases, I'd consider it quite bold and daring to even try an ORTF pair of Schoeps.

IOW, we need more information. Can you provide the details? Picitures of the venue? The ensemble type/size/quality, etc.?

If I have a chance later today, I'll post a clip of a flute solo with orchestra (Mozart Flute Cto.) recorded with only stereo pair. This may give you some indication as to the balance you could expect.

Cheers-
J.

I'm one of the least experienced at this around here, so take this for what it is worth. With so little information, it's just a guessing game, but I'll play. I'd eliminate coincident pair configurations since they depend more on the acoustics to give a wide orchestral stereo field. That leaves me with something like ORTF or spaced omnis. Since the only info we have is that there will be a soloist, I'd choose ORTF.

If you eliminate the constraint that it has to be a single pair, I'd go with a center pair with omni outriggers. Since the outriggers can pretty much guarantee a sense of space, you are more free to choose the center configuration. I'd base the choice on the best mic pair - preamp combo that I had available.

BobRogers wrote: I'm one of the least experienced at this around here...

Spoken as though there were years and years of experience...

Thank you all for your replies. Very kind.

Cucco, you're quite right in that it is not the most favorable conditions for a detailed reply. I was merely looking for any general workflows, ideas or such when working only with a stereo pair but recording a full orchestra.

If my employer only pays for a stereo recording, that's what he's gonna get. If he pays for transport as well, I'll go all-out and bring the entire mic cache from the school...

Cucco wrote: Seems like a loaded question to me.

(and actually, Royer will be putting up a clip of mine on their site soon of an orchestra with a soloist recorded with nothing but the SF12).

J.

Great!!!

johannes_o wrote: If my employer only pays for a stereo recording, that's what he's gonna get. If he pays for transport as well, I'll go all-out and bring the entire mic cache from the school...

Are you sure that when the employer says "a stereo recording" is ok, that he understands that You think about only using a stereo pair? -- I expect, that he means that you should use whatever number of mikes necessary to make a perfect recording and then deliver it in any common stereo format!! -- Usually "customers" don't give a damn what kind of mikes or how many one uses as long as they get their prized recording.

In these days of "multitrack" everything, we've quite forgotten the noble art of mixing on the fly (to stereo). In the school (not really a school) where I was taught, basic skills included how to balance a complex mix of anything from 4 to two dozen mikes to stereo (on the fly) -- set up on stage with a symphony orchestra, sometimes with soloist, singers, a choir.. I belive that is who many radio engineers still do it when confronted with classical music...

Thats really why they used to call the most skilled of us "Balance engineers" (in Germany "Tonmester")!!*

If you believe that you can pull of a symphony orchestra and soloist with only a stereo pair, then go ahead; I'd for sure try to cover my ass and set up half a dozen spots (soloist, woodwinds, DB's, first violin) just to make sure that I have everything on "tape"...

/ptr

*who calls himself recording engineer as he don't think he's balanced enough!!! :wink: :wink:

I would tend to agree with ptr.

One of my pet peeves nowadays is to see recording companies that charge extra for multi-track work but their basic recording setup is a simple stereo pair.

Yes, an orchestra can be captured qutie beautifully with a stereo pair. However, the following variables MUST be in line before it's even remotely (pun maybe intended) possible:

1 - The orchestra must be top notch and balance quite perfectly
2 - The hall must be top notch and project the timbre of the ensemble perfectly
3 - you have to find THE single spot where that set of mics in that pattern pick up the orchestra JUST right.

When all of these things happen, it's beautiful. I'll let you know when (or if) this ever happens for me.

However, wonderful recordings approaching the purity of what I just stated are quite possible by working with even a small handful of mics and channels.

Considering hard drive space is cheap and ADCs are cheap and mic pres are even more affordable now than ever...why should a client have to pay more for a couple extra channels?

I try to carry what I need for the job for whatever it is, regardless if it's a 800 person orchestra and chorus (Mahler 8) or if it's the Schubert Octet. My job as an engineer is to make the recording sound as true-to-life as humanly possible with perhaps my own spin or interpretation.

My goal lately has been to minimize the quantity of equipment while maximizing the quality of the equipment which I take with me. This benefits me, my customers, my back and in the end the final product and thus my business and my bottom line.

Anyway...this has just been my version of venting.

On with your regularly scheduled programming...

ORTF pair in front of conductor and it also picks up the flute soloist as s/he stands on the LFT. Call it a day, collect check, pack up everything in a knapsack. Walk out with light alu mic stand.

Drive away and adjourn to a smelly Indian or Thai restaurant to celebrate a monumental stereo picture!

I go with what Ptr and Cucco said, plus respond to this....

If my employer only pays for a stereo recording, that's what he's gonna get. If he pays for transport as well, I'll go all-out and bring the entire mic cache from the school...

There's a lot of things wrong with this statement, but you're certainly welcome to your opinions. I have about 40+ current employers. (Read: Clients). If I took this attitude, I'd have been out of business years ago.

I don't know if you're doing this as a school favor, or as a professional, or even what your relationship is to this person who is your "employer."

If you're looking to do this professionally, I'd suggest you re think your attitude. Very few people sell this kind of product "by the yard" these days, at least not at the level we're talking here. Very often, the competition is so cutthroat, you can't NOT offer extra goodies and services. Always assume there's someone breathing down your neck, waiting to get THEIR shot in front of YOUR employer. Even if you don't see them now, TRUST ME: They're out there, just waiting and scheming to eat your lunch tomorrow.

Sure, you don't want to be a doormat, that's for chumps. But as the Zen folks say: "To serve is to be served." You can always structure your rates to make yourself look great, while "Giving away" things that are already built into your fees, but in more subtle ways.

Let me explain further... As Ptr has already stated, most clients don't give a DAMN about how many mics you use, as long as you get the job done properly. All your soloist is going to care about is if HE/SHE can be heard properly above the rest. (You would not BELIEVE how many engineer wanna-bee's miss this very simple fact of life!)

Every time I do a choral concert (esp with a hired-on orchestra), I make DAMN SURE the choir can be heard above the din, no matter how many mics it takes - usually four, plus soloists. I make sure the conductor (who is usually also the choir director) can HEAR the singers on his CD copies. (Guess who gets the call-backs for the serious stuff next time, eh?)

Of course, I'm delivering a "stereo" CD to the client, but I go the extra mile every time I go out. I bring extra stands, plenty of cable for at least a dozen microphones, and more than enough mixer channels to cover all possiblities. I go to each client's website (or check in via email) to make sure I know the program ahead of time, how many soloists will be involved, extra and exotic instruments, etc. You just never know, and you DONT want to look like an idiot (I can do that just fine on my own) by not being ready for the gig.

Like many others, I went multitrack back in the early 90's, as soon as the Tascam DA-x8 machines became affordable, portable, and reliable enough to take out on gigs. Of course, rock had been multitrack since the Beatles and Les paul before them, but very few folks locally in the classical & jazz biz could understand why I was lugging around an MDM with extra tape when all they wanted was a CD. How times change in just a little over a decade! (Now it's 24 tracks on a laptop, if nec.)

Ditto for recordable CDs. I was one of the first kids on the block in the early 90's to offer clients a CDr copy (at no extra charge!) of their work in progress. Once the cost of a blank dropped from $10 or $15 down to less than a buck apiece, below the cost of a blank cassette - which had to be done in real time..guess who got the callbacks? Some clients didn't even GET why a CD would be a better sound & deal than a cassette dub, but eventually it became the norm. Now it's expected. I'm sure I'm not the first one that thought of this, but believe me, you wanna talk about Client LOYALTY???

One last bit of advice here....sure, you can charge for every little thing, and you may get away with it just fine. You may even become one of those super-rare, ultra-audiophiles guru-types, who sniffs at asking how high when a client says "jump".

But if you're like the rest of us work-a-day types who want to be in biz 5, 10, 15 years from now, you may figure out it's not about the least amount of work you can do for a client's project, but the BEST WAY you can get it done, with the highest quality, and at the same time make that client luuuve you enough to budget enough cash to hire you for the NEXT project, and the next and the next after that.

Or you can just record in stereo onto a DAT, charge him for the tape, postage, and hit him for cartage, too. :roll:

Thank you very much for your replies!

Regarding the possibility of using more mics or my attitude towards this gig, I feel I expressed myself very clumsily :)

I'm a sound engineering student, and I live in a town 300 km from where the recording is going to take place. I can either take the bus and do a small recording, or I can bring loads of equipment and drive down. This is dependent on if my employer can afford to pay for the car, cause it'll cost me $400. I could do this for free of course, but I don't feel like losing money doing it. See?

But yes, you're all quite right about attitudes and expectations regarding the overall setup of a gig. I'm just looking for your great experience if it should come to that I'll have to settle for the stereo pair option.

Yikes...that is a pretty good distance to travel for a student.

Well, if you must, you must.

If you could somehow manage to squeeze 4 tracks of gear onto the bus (borrow mic stands at your destination or plan on flying in the mics??), you would be a lot better off.

However, if that wouldn't be possible, I would agree with Plush's (hopefully somewhat tongue-in-cheek) reply. Grab a pair of DPA Cardioids and go ORTF and call it a day.

I just can't imagine how miserable I'd be after a 4 hour bus ride lugging around audio gear. Then to have to turn right around and get back on the bus again...no thanks.

Johannes-

I'm with Joe here. Regardless of the reason that you got into this and the previous arrangements you have made, it may be important to your professional future that this recording is something that you are not ashamed of. It may not get wide distribution, but in particular, a lot of local musicians will know how it sounds. Whether this means getting the orchestra director to provide transportation or getting a couple of friends to help with the promise of bus fare, food, and beer it is in your interest to bring the equipment necessary to make a recording that you feel is satisfactoy.

Just a subtle point of language as an aside: In US English there is a distinction between the client/contractor and employer/employee relationships. The first is usually a specific agreement between equals. In the second, the employee agrees to be subordinate. In blatant contradiction to this we regard the customer (client) as always right while the boss (employer) is always wrong. :wink:

UPDATE: Gulp! I missed the bit about the 300km bus ride. You'd need some very good friends to help out with this. Yeah, a single ORTF pair may be what is realistic. On the other hand, if things like mic stands and cables were provided on site, you might be able to bring a couple of extra mics. Good luck. I hope this works out well for you.

Johannes; I'm glad you clarified this more, and I congratulate you in advance for having the desire to want to do this at all. I suspect that by the very fact that you're interested in doing this may mean you've got some serious interest in recording, and just might have a career at it. I was also under the impression you had a lot of stuff on hand there - at the school, or nearby, perhaps, etc. - than lugging it all 300km. Big difference, of course.

All that said, you may still be able to pull something off for the long run; perhaps using some of the gear that has been suggested in a "back pack" configuration. I don't envy your long bus ride to/from the venue.

yes, you're 'only' a student right now, but this is a good time for you at this level. (It may not SEEM that way now...hehe....but in 10 or 20 years, you may see it then.) You've got a good opportunity here, and even if you just go with 2 mic stereo, I'm hoping you can turn it into something you can use for a long time as you build your body of work.

Good luck getting it done, seriously. I hope it works out for you.

A possible advantage to using fewer mics is that there will be more time to focus on placing them carefully. Also, I must say that I don't find the points of view criticizing multitracking to make much sense.

Which points of view do you mean?

Thank you everyone. I feel positively glowing now :)

I know some pros that always record with only a stereo pair (and then they have this ever-raging war between coincident pair or spaced pair... childish much?) and they are, of course, able to draw on their years of experience with different halls, styles, musicians and such. They do get the job done, though, with stellar results.

I agree with aracu that an upside to this is more time to work with placement.
JoeH, thank you for your kind words as well. I have been interested in sound & recording since I was 10-12 or something, and have been wxperimenting with acoustical recordings since I was 16. Now, I'm 22 and I'm starting to realize that this is infinitely complex and immesurably fun, that's why I'm studiyng this...

See, the bus trip in itself is not an issue, really. The issue is how much equipment I can transport on the bus... And I think I'll be using my own MBox setup, or possibly a Sound Devices 702, since I don't have access to any multitrack equipment at all. It would be favorable to at least have 4 or 6 channels of recording, but as of now, this is what I've got.

Thanks everyone for your input and valuable time! To whom do I put out the check? :)

The Sound Devices is really cool because the pres sound good and are very quiet. They sound like they attenuate high frequencies which can be nice for digital recordings. The Sound Devices I am familiar with can moniter ms recordings without processing them, so you could adjust the stereo image later if you wanted to. It's a safer way to go.
Hi Jeremy, I guess I'd rather not go into the multitracking topic.

Aracu; yeah I like it too. Pre:s sound really transparent. As for hf attenuation, I've played tones through it from 5 Hz to 50 KHz and it's completely linear. ±0.05dB or something like that. Creepy. That's at 192KHz though.

aracu wrote:
Hi Jeremy, I guess I'd rather not go into the multitracking topic.

I understand. I just didn't understand your comment - not the intent, but the actual comment itself.

Not trying to get into the subject either way, I'm a big fan of minimalist recording and have done my fair share. However, I also understand the value of a quality multi-track rig. Call me a fence rider, but sometimes, riding high on that fence is a great way to see both sides of the issue.

Cheers-
Jeremy

Johannes, yes, that comment about the Sound Devices sounding like
they attenuate the high frequencies was based on a careful though subjective and unmeasured comparison of them, to Gordon pres, using a low output ribbon mic, in which they sounded like they had less top end and a more muffled sound overall. Don't get me wrong though, I like those pres a lot and use them all the time. I think that they counteract digital harshness, whether by accident or by design. It seems anyway that differences in good quality and boutique quality pres are pretty negligable compared to the differences in microphone selection and placement.

Plush wrote: Call it a day, collect check, pack up everything in a knapsack. Walk out with light alu mic stand.

Now you're talking!

I agree with this post. I am still working to get an acoustic space to sound right with coincident pairs, even high quality DPA cardiods in ORTF!

If you have 4-channels to record with, throw up 2 of the 4006 in A-B stereo and bring one more pair of high quality cardiods for a closer ORTF if you need some presence for a particular section or soloist and/or can't locate the omni's where you'd like.

JoeH wrote: My choice is the 4006's in a spaced stereo pair config.

I usually add a spot mic for any soloist, just to be covered, although the soloist is often strong enough in the stereo pair that I don't need the spot for much at all. It really depends on the type of music, where they're standing, and placemnt of the stereo pair.

You may be ok with just the pair, but you'll probably have to experiment a little. Hopefully you can get some time during the dress rehearsal to try it out.

Is there a website that sells the bulk of these mics?
I just want to compare prices.

TheFraz wrote: Is there a website that sells the bulk of these mics?
I just want to compare prices.

Give froogle.google.com a shot - you can get a general idea there of "street" prices on gear that online stores sell. You can usually get a better deal by working with a salesman at a retail store but froogle gives you an idea of an average price. This average price often equates to the lowest advertised price a manufacturer allows its dealers to publish which explains why you can almost always get a lower price working directly with a salesman.

This is all really great advice guys.
All of it getting me rather ecstatic to get into it my self.
I am trying to decide on on a stereo pair to start me off with.
Now that it is becoming more apparent that I will need much more then a good stereo pair, I am rethinking my budget. Perhaps I should start with something a little less pricey.
I noticed that earthworks sells some stereo pairs for quite cheep. Like the TC30 and SR30. Are theses even remotely close to the quality I should be expecting?

The SR30 wouldn't be my recommendation for a stereo pair to record orchestra with. I love them when trying to isolate a location in a large ensemble like when a choir is singing with an orchestra. Additionally, these mics are amazing at presenting a crystal clear picture as drum overheads or in tight-miking situations with acoustic instruments like strings, acoustic guitar, percussion, etc. The SR30 is crisp and has a focused pickup pattern.

I'd recommend trying out the QT series if you're looking for a single stereo pair for miking an orchestra. I have no experience with any of Earthworks' omni microphones but I have had such great success with the SR30s (and the SR77s before them) that I'd be surprised if they weren't awesome.

I'm partial to the idea of omni microphones for classical recording, especially if you're only going to use a small number of total microphones. I have no experience with out-rigging, Decca trees or surround recording of orchestras so please understand my opinions on all classical recording options as limited. I have been enjoying using omni's in my recordings and can recommend it to you.

Maybe a good place for you to start might be with the latest Mojave Audio package. I believe that the MA-100 has interchangeable capsules so you could experiment with cardiod vs. omni on your projects. I've used the MA-200 with great success but haven't tried the MA-100. Again, I can rely on my history with the designer (David Royer) to make this assumption. Here is a link to the MA-100 product page:

http://www.mojaveaudio.com/MA-100.html

I heard that they released a non-tube version of the MA-200 to be called the MA-201 at the NAMM show but haven't seen any change to their website. I'd love to have 4 of every model that Mojave and Royer make!

aracu wrote: The Sound Devices is really cool because the pres sound good and are very quiet. They sound like they attenuate high frequencies which can be nice for digital recordings. The Sound Devices I am familiar with can moniter ms recordings without processing them, so you could adjust the stereo image later if you wanted to. It's a safer way to go.
Hi Jeremy, I guess I'd rather not go into the multitracking topic.

I haven't noticed the hi-end attenuation with my 722, although I have only had a chance to use it four times. I've recorded two choirs, a small jazz combo and a salsa band each time in different locations. I used two matched DPA 4021 cardiods in ORTF with fairly good results on all 4 recordings.

I'm thrilled with the SoundDevices recorder! The meters are so sexy cool. I'm going to experiment more with XY and other microphones (including the Earthworks SR30s) to see if I can get stereo recordings that sound more like the room.

TheFraz wrote: This is all really great advice guys.
All of it getting me rather ecstatic to get into it my self.
I am trying to decide on on a stereo pair to start me off with.
Now that it is becoming more apparent that I will need much more then a good stereo pair, I am rethinking my budget. Perhaps I should start with something a little less pricey.
I noticed that earthworks sells some stereo pairs for quite cheep. Like the TC30 and SR30. Are theses even remotely close to the quality I should be expecting?

The SR30 is definitely not the right mic to get started with. If I'm not mistaken, the SR in SR30 stands for Sound Reinforcement and is intended as a stage mic first and recording mic second.

Also, I would strongly advise against using a pair of omnis as your first and only set of mics.

While I LOVE the use of omnis in a good hall with a well-balanced ensemble, the reality is, you won't be working in good halls with well-balanced ensembles for the first 10 years or so of your career.

A much safer and wiser bet is to go with a QUALITY pair of cardioids. An even safer bet still is a pair with switchable capsules. The safest bet of all - a pair that includes a pair of omnis and a pair of cardioids.

The Mojave is such an example and while I haven't had the opportunity to work with them yet, I'll be doing some major recordings with them in the near future. I've talked to Dave Royer about them and he seems quite excited by their sound suggesting that they are not as open and transparent as the Schoeps but more like the slightly thicker and warmer KM84s.

Another pair to consider would be the Rode NT55. The only reason I don't own a pair of these right now is the simple fact that I have several pair of Schoeps, a couple Neumanns and a few Gefells. If the Rodes got any use at all, they would be buried in the mix and only there because I felt the necessity to use them after having spent the money. They're great mics though and worth the money and then some.

Of course, my strongest recommendation would be for a pair of Schoeps CMC 6 bodies and either a pair of MK4 or MK21 capsules. Either of these sets would be strong enough to qualify as the desert island pair of mics.

Anyway...go forth and shop.

J.

The mojave seems to be a good deal price wise. I like the idea of having the option in polar patterns.
One thing that concerns me is the less the flat EQ curve. Looking at the chart, it looks like the boosts are all in real ear friendly places. But I would like the option of capturing a more true sound.
At the same time though, the price is right.
Also when I get money the chance, I think I may get a NT4. I love the NT5's in the studio, and often find my self XYing them, so they seem like they would be a useful addition to my mic collection. A simple XY mic set up for doing smaller gigs.

There is just so much I need to buy. This is why I want to get an apprenticeship, so I can learn and build up my equipment over a longer period of time.
Plus now I need to spend some quality time teaching my self the fine points of classical music. I can not look like an idiot in front the potential clients.
This is why I am glad I am young, and have a good idea of what I want to start focusing my life on.
And to johannes, Looks like we are in similar boats. So best of luck to you, and I hope you capture a great performance.

I wouldn't overly concern yourself with minor rises such as in the case of the Mojaves.

It's only when it's a sudden peak or a significantly higher or lower change. IIRC, the bumps on those are on the order of 4dB over the course of an entire octave in the extreme upper regions (higher on the omni, lower on the cardioids.)

This is only a problem for close mic'ing any way as distant micing will prove to be a little easier given the slight rise.

Good to know.
When you get a chance to record with them, please share with us the experience. Considering the price, and the choice of caps, it's hard to ignore the mojaves. Plus I am sure they would work great in a studio as well.

Nerds.

You're saying that like it's a bad thig.
I am just glad i found a forum where i can be as geeky as I want.

When I first started school for all this, I had this thought that I was never going to be able to turn my self into a enough of geek to do well. That feeling went to shit. Now i can not talk to ny one with out having to seriously. dumb down my vocabulary when I talk about recording.
I have discovered, no mater how much fun it seems to you, no one gives a shit what the last thing you taped a PZM to was

David Spearritt wrote: This is a sexy meter.

I just wet my pants.

I wrote: I just wet my pants.

Actually, I've been using the Nagra modulometer since 2003. It took very little time to get used to, and I have to say it's one of the best metering systems I've ever used. Then again, I grew up on VU meters [not much room for ball games, and on sudden transients the needle could knock your feet out from under you, but not a bad place to grow up nonetheless] and so I like a metering system with some kind of average indication.

My only criticism of the Nagra V's modulometer is that there is no 'over' indicator. Not that you need it once you know how to read it (hey, that rhymes - I'm a poet and I didn't think so). If I had the time and money, I'd replace those L>R and R>L green LEDs with bicolour LEDs that glowed red when there was an over. That would then be the perfect meter, as far as I'm concerned...